[Locked] MATCHMAKING FEEDBACK UPDATE – November 5

Heaviies wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

Heaviies wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

I disagree. Read my last comment.

BTB has never been strong in H5, regardless of its place in past Halos. We have to look at the audience it has now vs. the past. The average bulk H5 player isn't that interested in BTB and never has been. Not in the presence of Warzone and now BTB SF.

That doesn't mean there isn't a group of folks playing H5 who love it, but that group isn't a core part of H5.

I feel more like the core pop has moved on, and the leftover BTB enthusiast community isn't large enough to sustain the list without changes that invite folks currently happy in other playlists back, as well as the enthusiasts.

Also, I disgrew on the BR. The original BR scared off more of that original pop than it did invite them. Weakening the BR actually resulted in an increase in BTB's pop a year ago that was sustained up until BTB SF.

This just keeps getting better!

BTB has never been strong in H5? That's a product of decisions that 343 made. Not the community. You guys didn't even have developed BTB maps for the launch of H5. Despite how much people LOVED BTB in the previous Halos, you guys didn't even have it as a playlist for H5. It's obvious that your team at 343 assumed that the Warzone playlist would just take its place and people would be okay with it. Given the fact that you gave us a warzone gametype that was specifically designed for REQ packs, insane amount of DLC, 12-man teams, skins, commendations, company commendations,etc... Warzone was designed to be a stacked advantage vs. ANY other playlist in H5. So of course an overwhelming amount of people would play that playlist.

But when a large portion of the community wanted BTB, you provided us with Forge maps. These were wonderfully made maps by community members, but these maps were complete with frame-rate issues, flawed mechanics, and overall quality < developer made warzone and arena maps. You can't deny that a professionally developed map is much preferred over a community-made forge map.

AND HELLO TO 343...PSA... YOU STILL HAVENT ADDRESSED THE 15/16 PREGAME LOBBY GLITCH THAT CAUSES US AN ENDLESS WAIT TO GET A GAME...AT A:: SKILL LEVELS. At this point, it feels like a kick in the nuts when trying to search. People legitimately will get bored if they are sitting in the pre-game lobby for 5 minutes, only to have to research and cross their fingers that they'll be able to get a match the next time they search.

And if you truly believe that the BTB population before the August 2017 tuning update was lower or less sustained than the population right before BTB SF was released, why weren't we talking about making BTB a rotational playlist a year ago?

ZaedynFel wrote:

Heaviies wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

Heaviies wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

I disagree. Read my last comment.

BTB has never been strong in H5, regardless of its place in past Halos. We have to look at the audience it has now vs. the past. The average bulk H5 player isn't that interested in BTB and never has been. Not in the presence of Warzone and now BTB SF.

That doesn't mean there isn't a group of folks playing H5 who love it, but that group isn't a core part of H5.

I feel more like the core pop has moved on, and the leftover BTB enthusiast community isn't large enough to sustain the list without changes that invite folks currently happy in other playlists back, as well as the enthusiasts.

Also, I disgrew on the BR. The original BR scared off more of that original pop than it did invite them. Weakening the BR actually resulted in an increase in BTB's pop a year ago that was sustained up until BTB SF.

This just keeps getting better!

BTB has never been strong in H5? That's a product of decisions that 343 made. Not the community. You guys didn't even have developed BTB maps for the launch of H5. Despite how much people LOVED BTB in the previous Halos, you guys didn't even have it as a playlist for H5. It's obvious that your team at 343 assumed that the Warzone playlist would just take its place and people would be okay with it. Given the fact that you gave us a warzone gametype that was specifically designed for REQ packs, insane amount of DLC, 12-man teams, skins, commendations, company commendations,etc... Warzone was designed to be a stacked advantage vs. ANY other playlist in H5. So of course an overwhelming amount of people would play that playlist.

But when a large portion of the community wanted BTB, you provided us with Forge maps. These were wonderfully made maps by community members, but these maps were complete with frame-rate issues, flawed mechanics, and overall quality < developer made warzone and arena maps. You can't deny that a professionally developed map is much preferred over a community-made forge map.

AND HELLO TO 343...PSA... YOU STILL HAVENT ADDRESSED THE 15/16 PREGAME LOBBY GLITCH THAT CAUSES US AN ENDLESS WAIT TO GET A GAME...AT A:: SKILL LEVELS. At this point, it feels like a kick in the nuts when trying to search. People legitimately will get bored if they are sitting in the pre-game lobby for 5 minutes, only to have to research and cross their fingers that they'll be able to get a match the next time they search.

And if you truly believe that the BTB population before the August 2017 tuning update was lower or less sustained than the population right before BTB SF was released, why weren't we talking about making BTB a rotational playlist a year ago?

I can't speak to the history since I wasn't around for it, but from my POV, regardless of how we got to where we are, we have to make decisions based on the current population and situation. Making historical arguments aren't going to help the list at present, and we aren't going to get dev support at this stage in H5's history vs. what needs to get done for Infinite.

So instead, we look at the type of refresh that we CAN do, and see how it turns out.

But either way, a list needs to stand on its own merits, not on what should or could have been done in the past.

Heaviies wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

Heaviies wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

Heaviies wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

I disagree. Read my last comment.

BTB has never been strong in H5, regardless of its place in past Halos. We have to look at the audience it has now vs. the past. The average bulk H5 player isn't that interested in BTB and never has been. Not in the presence of Warzone and now BTB SF.

That doesn't mean there isn't a group of folks playing H5 who love it, but that group isn't a core part of H5.

I feel more like the core pop has moved on, and the leftover BTB enthusiast community isn't large enough to sustain the list without changes that invite folks currently happy in other playlists back, as well as the enthusiasts.

Also, I disgrew on the BR. The original BR scared off more of that original pop than it did invite them. Weakening the BR actually resulted in an increase in BTB's pop a year ago that was sustained up until BTB SF.

This just keeps getting better!

BTB has never been strong in H5? That's a product of decisions that 343 made. Not the community. You guys didn't even have developed BTB maps for the launch of H5. Despite how much people LOVED BTB in the previous Halos, you guys didn't even have it as a playlist for H5. It's obvious that your team at 343 assumed that the Warzone playlist would just take its place and people would be okay with it. Given the fact that you gave us a warzone gametype that was specifically designed for REQ packs, insane amount of DLC, 12-man teams, skins, commendations, company commendations,etc... Warzone was designed to be a stacked advantage vs. ANY other playlist in H5. So of course an overwhelming amount of people would play that playlist.

But when a large portion of the community wanted BTB, you provided us with Forge maps. These were wonderfully made maps by community members, but these maps were complete with frame-rate issues, flawed mechanics, and overall quality < developer made warzone and arena maps. You can't deny that a professionally developed map is much preferred over a community-made forge map.

AND HELLO TO 343...PSA... YOU STILL HAVENT ADDRESSED THE 15/16 PREGAME LOBBY GLITCH THAT CAUSES US AN ENDLESS WAIT TO GET A GAME...AT A:: SKILL LEVELS. At this point, it feels like a kick in the nuts when trying to search. People legitimately will get bored if they are sitting in the pre-game lobby for 5 minutes, only to have to research and cross their fingers that they'll be able to get a match the next time they search.

And if you truly believe that the BTB population before the August 2017 tuning update was lower or less sustained than the population right before BTB SF was released, why weren't we talking about making BTB a rotational playlist a year ago?

I can't speak to the history since I wasn't around for it, but from my POV, regardless of how we got to where we are, we have to make decisions based on the current population and situation. Making historical arguments aren't going to help the list at present, and we aren't going to get dev support at this stage in H5's history vs. what needs to get done for Infinite.

So instead, we look at the type of refresh that we CAN do, and see how it turns out.

But either way, a list needs to stand on its own merits, not on what should or could have been done in the past.

So are you saying you CANT fix the 15/16 pregame lobby glitch? Because that is enough to drive the population away. Fix this and people will come back.

Also rotate maps back. Get rid of Dispelled or decrease the chance of playing it. This will get people to play.

And dont say that SBMM was removed from BTB when full teams still can’t find games now. Maybe it’s another glitch you aren’t aware of then.

Part of of the problem is that the population has got you working on it. Since your focus is the current population and not the population that’s been lost I get it - you’re the one who is responsible for pleasing the population still here. When the main issue with the dip in population in BTB were decisions made in the past that you were and were not responsible for.

ZaedynFel wrote:

a LvL99 Jay wrote:

This is ridiculous, 343 bends over backwards to sabotage BTB and now you're going to remove it due to population.

People have been telling 343 for years now what needs to be fixed, and we have been ignored every time. Removing it shouldn't even be a remote consideration before actually listening to the feedback coming from the people who are literally telling you exactly how to get them playing again.

Fix the 15/16 glitch, fix the BR, fix the banshee, fix the maps -- none of these issues are news -- for once in the entire history of H5 actually try to give the playlist some love.

What's most sad is that this is all just a repeat of what already happened with regular social -- of course people are going to prefer the "random" fiesta gametypes when the default settings are somehow worse than random.

The fundamental problem that pushes people to favor random gametypes is that Halo 5 never got to experience a real social playlist (BTB or even regular TS) and now one of the most iconic game modes in video game history is being considered to get axed due to the lack of popularity that has been brought on by constant neglect in the first place.

Again, historical arguments aren't going to help what we need to do at present, and saying "default is worse than random" is a straw man. There's a lot more to it than that.

We'll work with what we have available at this time, but regardless of history, the list has to stand on its own.

ZaedynFel wrote:

Heaviies wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

Heaviies wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

I disagree. Read my last comment.

BTB has never been strong in H5, regardless of its place in past Halos. We have to look at the audience it has now vs. the past. The average bulk H5 player isn't that interested in BTB and never has been. Not in the presence of Warzone and now BTB SF.

That doesn't mean there isn't a group of folks playing H5 who love it, but that group isn't a core part of H5.

I feel more like the core pop has moved on, and the leftover BTB enthusiast community isn't large enough to sustain the list without changes that invite folks currently happy in other playlists back, as well as the enthusiasts.

Also, I disgrew on the BR. The original BR scared off more of that original pop than it did invite them. Weakening the BR actually resulted in an increase in BTB's pop a year ago that was sustained up until BTB SF.

This just keeps getting better!

BTB has never been strong in H5? That's a product of decisions that 343 made. Not the community. You guys didn't even have developed BTB maps for the launch of H5. Despite how much people LOVED BTB in the previous Halos, you guys didn't even have it as a playlist for H5. It's obvious that your team at 343 assumed that the Warzone playlist would just take its place and people would be okay with it. Given the fact that you gave us a warzone gametype that was specifically designed for REQ packs, insane amount of DLC, 12-man teams, skins, commendations, company commendations,etc... Warzone was designed to be a stacked advantage vs. ANY other playlist in H5. So of course an overwhelming amount of people would play that playlist.

But when a large portion of the community wanted BTB, you provided us with Forge maps. These were wonderfully made maps by community members, but these maps were complete with frame-rate issues, flawed mechanics, and overall quality < developer made warzone and arena maps. You can't deny that a professionally developed map is much preferred over a community-made forge map.

AND HELLO TO 343...PSA... YOU STILL HAVENT ADDRESSED THE 15/16 PREGAME LOBBY GLITCH THAT CAUSES US AN ENDLESS WAIT TO GET A GAME...AT A:: SKILL LEVELS. At this point, it feels like a kick in the nuts when trying to search. People legitimately will get bored if they are sitting in the pre-game lobby for 5 minutes, only to have to research and cross their fingers that they'll be able to get a match the next time they search.

And if you truly believe that the BTB population before the August 2017 tuning update was lower or less sustained than the population right before BTB SF was released, why weren't we talking about making BTB a rotational playlist a year ago?

I can't speak to the history since I wasn't around for it, but from my POV, regardless of how we got to where we are, we have to make decisions based on the current population and situation. Making historical arguments aren't going to help the list at present, and we aren't going to get dev support at this stage in H5's history vs. what needs to get done for Infinite.

So instead, we look at the type of refresh that we CAN do, and see how it turns out.

But either way, a list needs to stand on its own merits, not on what should or could have been done in the past.

• Don't double down on the Super Fiesta mode. If there's a tactical experience difference between BTSF and regular 5v5 SF as the reason for supporting both at the same time as permanent playlists then simply consider adding some bigger maps to regular 5v5 SF with REQ vehicles as a means to provide that different tactical experience without creating redundancy that ends up directly harming a core Halo experience. By removing the 8v8 aspect perhaps it wouldn't draw too heavily from the Big Team crowd.

• Refresh the BTB playlist with more than just a general map overhaul by replacing the default loadout Recon H5BR with the Long-Barrel H5BR as it provides some real niche areas of strength to the BR against other precision weapons without making it a cross-map laser. Don't double weight any of the maps, but going forward do rotate in-and-out some of the maps that prove less popular with past maps on a quarterly basis as it'll help keep the playlist somewhat fresh going forward.

• Ask for some resources from the Legacy Team or an outside source to help address the bug that's referred to as the 15/16 in BTB (I understand it plagues all of MMing) and any other on-going bugs as necessary rest-of-life improvements. H5 is still the newest Halo title and at this point it should not be plagued by bugs like this.

• Perhaps consider combining a Heavies variant with BTB that provides access to more REQ variants, but making BTB rotational shouldn't even enter the discussion. Finding ways to improve its pop should indeed be part of your goal because it is a core experience of the Halo franchise.

eLantern wrote:

LUKEPOWA wrote:

I can't believe a core playlist since H2 is possibly getting removed for a bloated Fiesta playlist. Do you realize how bad that sounds? Now if I wanna play a traditional objective gametype, I have to wait one, two, three or maybe even four months because social doesn't have any permanent objective playlists, but I can play Slayer with REQ weapons though. Oh, joy!

While we're at it, why don't we replace everything with Super Fiesta since it's obviously the most popular gametype. Fiesta Infection, Fiesta SWAT, Fiesta Team Arena, Fiesta Doubles, Fiesta FFA, Fiesta Elimination, etc etc.. I mean who cares about core playlists in Halo when we can just shoot each other with REQ weapons. Sometimes data shouldn't determine every decision being made.

Exactly.

I kind of expected Josh to have understood this.

ZaedynFel wrote:

Warzone AssaultWarzone Assault has long been behaving more like a rotational than like a permanent playlist. It has also gone several days at a time without any matches played at all because the number of players we see trying to play at peak times is not enough to form a complete match. To make it easier to get matches in Warzone Assault, as I mentioned before the weekend, we are going to start running it as a rotational the first weekend of each month. We have noticed in our data that when we take less popular lists and run them periodically instead of permanently, they receive orders of magnitude more players.

ZaedynFel wrote:

Also, I disgrew on the BR. The original BR scared off more of that original pop than it did invite them. Weakening the BR actually resulted in an increase in BTB's pop a year ago that was sustained up until BTB SF.

ZaedynFel wrote:

Because we still have a team picker in place that prevents unfair team vs. team odds. The matchmaker can throw any 16 players into a match now regardless of skill, but then the team picker verifies that there exists a team balance that won't be unfair.
Without that, we lose pop a lot faster.

ZaedynFel wrote:

The 15/16 glitch is in every playlist, not specific to BTB, but the other lists do fine because they have larger pop. It's worse in BTB BECAUSE of the pop, not the other way around.

1. Start a search, find a match, screen freezes (can't do anything), have to kill the game and restart.
2. Start a search, find a match, one player's emblem drops from the list (probably due to #1), so you wait until the next player is found - sometimes fast (not so bad), sometimes slow (super annoying).
3. Weird freezing in the countdown screen after playing your last game - maybe something to do with viewing the PGCR? Sometimes it "unfreezes", sometimes it doesn't. If it doesn't, kill the game and restart.
4. Start a search, find a match (I think) - get a message that you've lost connection to the server and get kicked to the main menu - start the search again, get a second message that was related to the first search and not your current search - and then usually I'll find a game. This just started happening to me recently, and I haven't seen anyone else report it - so maybe it's just me.