[Locked] MATCHMAKING FEEDBACK UPDATE – November 5

eLantern wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

qlimm wrote:

GameThis game I went off on two champs and two higher ranked Onyx players. My team had one other Onyx and two diamonds who all went negative. We lost 50-45 and I lost 28 CSR. How could the system think that I was supposed to win that game when we were all ranked below the enemy team?

I have faith in the system, I just want to know its reasoning.

Here's the breakdown.

You were a 1573 player and lost to a 1491 MMR team while being on a 1502 MMR team. The combination of losing to a team with a lower MMR both individually and as a team.

BTW, the Diamonds on your team are both Onyx players.

This is precisely why HERE and HERE I discussed things that I feel would help lessen this type of confusion. I assume it's more prevalent within the early goings of a new season, but it can occur at any time within a season if people start late or just don't play super often.

qlimm wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

qlimm wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

qlimm wrote:

GameThis game I went off on two champs and two higher ranked Onyx players. My team had one other Onyx and two diamonds who all went negative. We lost 50-45 and I lost 28 CSR. How could the system think that I was supposed to win that game when we were all ranked below the enemy team?
I have faith in the system, I just want to know its reasoning.

Here's the breakdown.
You were a 1573 player and lost to a 1491 MMR team while being on a 1502 MMR team. The combination of losing to a team with a lower MMR both individually and as a team.

So people can be higher ranks but with a lower MMR, as in my lower ranked team had a higher MMR than the higher ranked team? Does that mean the game eventually thinks we would overtake their rank given enough time?
I just can't help but think CatticusFinch never had a chance in that game.

Yes, MMR and CSR do not run perfectly in sync. This is intentional since MMR doesn't move at all when players aren't actually improving in skill. CSR lets you bounce around your MMR and get lucky ups and unlucky downs.
Also, yes, eventually they would converge.
But in this case, Catticus underperformed and so their pre-match MMR which was Onyx dropped to mid-Diamond post-match. But CSR updates use pre-match values.
Your own MMR went from 1476 to 1569 despite the loss (it went up), so you will easily recover that lost CSR as long as you continue to play consistently.

One more question, if my MMR went up that much and if the game uses MMR to determine CSR movement, does this not mean ranking up will be even more difficult despite the fact I am a lower CSR?

I don't believe so. It should just mean that it's a bit more volatile than it was under the previous +/-15 & 1 method or the temporary one that existed for a short period of time after the 15 & 1 method. HERE is a general breakdown of the newest method being utilized. You should be able to see how CSR still works toward convergence to MMR over time.

King Vicks II wrote:

ReyesDaGreat128 wrote:

iTs Heavies wrote:

King Vicks II wrote:

I never play ranked because what's the point if I can't show off my rank in a pre-game lobby?

What? You only want to play if people can see your stats pre-game?

That's crazy. You can be sure that people see the leaderboard right after the match ended. The rank is displayed there.

Simple social features like this, and file share, are what I miss. You don't even have to make it competative (Like not showing a rank), just show me SOMETHING to connect with people. Over half of my friend's list on Xbox Live are people whom I met by the party up feature in Halo 3 around 2007/8.

ZaedynFel wrote:

eLantern wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

qlimm wrote:

GameThis game I went off on two champs and two higher ranked Onyx players. My team had one other Onyx and two diamonds who all went negative. We lost 50-45 and I lost 28 CSR. How could the system think that I was supposed to win that game when we were all ranked below the enemy team?

I have faith in the system, I just want to know its reasoning.

Here's the breakdown.

You were a 1573 player and lost to a 1491 MMR team while being on a 1502 MMR team. The combination of losing to a team with a lower MMR both individually and as a team.

BTW, the Diamonds on your team are both Onyx players.

This is precisely why HERE and HERE I discussed things that I feel would help lessen this type of confusion. I assume it's more prevalent within the early goings of a new season, but it can occur at any time within a season if people start late or just don't play super often.

qlimm wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

qlimm wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

qlimm wrote:

GameThis game I went off on two champs and two higher ranked Onyx players. My team had one other Onyx and two diamonds who all went negative. We lost 50-45 and I lost 28 CSR. How could the system think that I was supposed to win that game when we were all ranked below the enemy team?
I have faith in the system, I just want to know its reasoning.

Here's the breakdown.
You were a 1573 player and lost to a 1491 MMR team while being on a 1502 MMR team. The combination of losing to a team with a lower MMR both individually and as a team.

So people can be higher ranks but with a lower MMR, as in my lower ranked team had a higher MMR than the higher ranked team? Does that mean the game eventually thinks we would overtake their rank given enough time?
I just can't help but think CatticusFinch never had a chance in that game.

Yes, MMR and CSR do not run perfectly in sync. This is intentional since MMR doesn't move at all when players aren't actually improving in skill. CSR lets you bounce around your MMR and get lucky ups and unlucky downs.
Also, yes, eventually they would converge.
But in this case, Catticus underperformed and so their pre-match MMR which was Onyx dropped to mid-Diamond post-match. But CSR updates use pre-match values.
Your own MMR went from 1476 to 1569 despite the loss (it went up), so you will easily recover that lost CSR as long as you continue to play consistently.

One more question, if my MMR went up that much and if the game uses MMR to determine CSR movement, does this not mean ranking up will be even more difficult despite the fact I am a lower CSR?

I don't believe so. It should just mean that it's a bit more volatile than it was under the previous +/-15 & 1 method or the temporary one that existed for a short period of time after the 15 & 1 method. HERE is a general breakdown of the newest method being utilized. You should be able to see how CSR still works toward convergence to MMR over time.

If your MMR and CSR are near each other, and if we get you into relatively balanced games, you'll go around +/-15.

The slowdown only happens if they pull away from each other. So if your MMR is much higher than your CSR, then you won't lose as much for a loss. Though it will be intuitive because if your MMR is higher than your CSR, your opponents will also be better, so it will make sense they you lose less for losing, etc.

I think the current system works pretty well at that. It might be easier if we could show average team MMR per team so you could compare directly to that rather than seeing the individual player CSRs.

I'm actually pretty dubious now about the value of showing the CSR of individual players at all outside of you being able to see your own. You really only need to know the MMR of each team, and your own CSR imo.

eLantern wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

I think the current system works pretty well at that. It might be easier if we could show average team MMR per team so you could compare directly to that rather than seeing the individual player CSRs.

I'm actually pretty dubious now about the value of showing the CSR of individual players at all outside of you being able to see your own. You really only need to know the MMR of each team, and your own CSR imo.

The current system does work pretty well. And I would absolutely agree with your desires, but you've got to figure there will be people who will nevertheless be upset when they cannot see the individual CSRs of those they played with and against in the PGCRs.

Within Infinite I imagine that you'd love to be able to show within the PGCR the Team MMRs, which automatically provides players with a sense of the expected match outcome, and a player's adjusted CSR with some sort of cross-reference to their personal performance expectations that's based on their MMR relative to the Team MMRs.

This would be an excellent means to communicate skill and skill adjustments, but I still cannot imagine that there won't be a heavy desire by people to know the CSRs of those they played with and against. Just to save 343i from some unnecessary public backlash I'd consider still showing those individual CSRs for everyone within the match via the PGCR too. Anyways, just a thought.

I also recall you saying that perhaps you could provide people with a few different visual means to gauge their playlist rank. Bronze - Onyx CSRs would represent the pure skill-based measurement. A modified 1-50 styled hybrid system similar to MCC could mix skill-based measurements with playlist-experience. And a pure playlist experience-based measurement similar to the Reach & Halo 3 military ranks. I think this would work great as long as the hybrid or experience based systems have no influence on the matchmaker within PvP matches. MMR needs to be the sole means for proper matchmaking within those types of matches and I have no doubt you fully agree.

ZaedynFel wrote:

eLantern wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

qlimm wrote:

GameThis game I went off on two champs and two higher ranked Onyx players. My team had one other Onyx and two diamonds who all went negative. We lost 50-45 and I lost 28 CSR. How could the system think that I was supposed to win that game when we were all ranked below the enemy team?

I have faith in the system, I just want to know its reasoning.

Here's the breakdown.

You were a 1573 player and lost to a 1491 MMR team while being on a 1502 MMR team. The combination of losing to a team with a lower MMR both individually and as a team.

BTW, the Diamonds on your team are both Onyx players.

This is precisely why HERE and HERE I discussed things that I feel would help lessen this type of confusion. I assume it's more prevalent within the early goings of a new season, but it can occur at any time within a season if people start late or just don't play super often.

...

Not sure I follow how your response clarifies the concerns I raised within my linked posts. Plus, within the second one, in which I was responding to QX, at the end I even managed to quote some of your past perspective on the general topic (given some edits to make it a bit more relate-able) which fits my belief too that allowing less confusion to take place outside of the Onyx ranks is better for the overall perceptions and comprehension of the matchmaking system. In other words, keep the true grind aspect within the Onyx tier and not within the Diamond ranks. In turn, this provides a sense of consistency throughout the Bronze-Diamond ranks.

This is just an area where I believe improvement can still be made to Halo 5.

ShellCracker wrote:

ZaedynFel, how did Warzone Assault do as a weekend playlist? This is the first time it came back, correct? (First time I saw it at least.)

I had some good matches but I also had some un-fun matches against large teams. I understand maybe that's a pop thing but as mostly a solo player I hate those games. Even if it's not unfair it "feels" that way.

Also I've got like 200 WZ legendary XP boosts that I can't use because I don't play firefight or standard WZ - so any form of Assault (or maybe a new mode?) would be welcome from my POV. Would it be possible to try a 6v6 or 8v8 version of WZA?

qlimm wrote:

GameI was partied up with the other Onyx player, then we got a Plat 6 and a Diamond.

Surely the other squad, comprised of three champs and an Onyx, had a higher MMR than us. I am also inclined to believe it was a squad of four because of how they spawn trapped us.

I go an even 7-7 and the rest of my team got destroyed. The Diamond player eventually gave up and went AFK.

I lose 30 CSR. This is the max, right? Why?

This is the kind of result that makes people stop playing ranked.

ZaedynFel wrote:

qlimm wrote:

GameI was partied up with the other Onyx player, then we got a Plat 6 and a Diamond.

Surely the other squad, comprised of three champs and an Onyx, had a higher MMR than us. I am also inclined to believe it was a squad of four because of how they spawn trapped us.

I go an even 7-7 and the rest of my team got destroyed. The Diamond player eventually gave up and went AFK.

I lose 30 CSR. This is the max, right? Why?

This is the kind of result that makes people stop playing ranked.

Your team had a 1518 MMR, the other team 1516.

A 1660 losing to a 1516 will generally drop 30 like you did.

Your post-game MMR was 1410, so losing -30 is definitely the right step to get your CSR down to where it should be after that performance (you played like a 1389 or Diamond 4).

NBK DarkWarlock wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

qlimm wrote:

GameI was partied up with the other Onyx player, then we got a Plat 6 and a Diamond.

Surely the other squad, comprised of three champs and an Onyx, had a higher MMR than us. I am also inclined to believe it was a squad of four because of how they spawn trapped us.

I go an even 7-7 and the rest of my team got destroyed. The Diamond player eventually gave up and went AFK.

I lose 30 CSR. This is the max, right? Why?

This is the kind of result that makes people stop playing ranked.

Your team had a 1518 MMR, the other team 1516.

A 1660 losing to a 1516 will generally drop 30 like you did.

Your post-game MMR was 1410, so losing -30 is definitely the right step to get your CSR down to where it should be after that performance (you played like a 1389 or Diamond 4).

can you tell me my mmr(Swat) and TuonoPayneT31 mmr(Swat)?

Comedic Hermit wrote:

NBK DarkWarlock wrote:

ZaedynFel wrote:

qlimm wrote:

GameI was partied up with the other Onyx player, then we got a Plat 6 and a Diamond.

Surely the other squad, comprised of three champs and an Onyx, had a higher MMR than us. I am also inclined to believe it was a squad of four because of how they spawn trapped us.

I go an even 7-7 and the rest of my team got destroyed. The Diamond player eventually gave up and went AFK.

I lose 30 CSR. This is the max, right? Why?

This is the kind of result that makes people stop playing ranked.

Your team had a 1518 MMR, the other team 1516.

A 1660 losing to a 1516 will generally drop 30 like you did.

Your post-game MMR was 1410, so losing -30 is definitely the right step to get your CSR down to where it should be after that performance (you played like a 1389 or Diamond 4).

can you tell me my mmr(Swat) and TuonoPayneT31 mmr(Swat)?

It's okay to ask for your own, it's inappropriate to ask for someone else's. That isn't going to be allowed here.