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[Locked] MATCHMAKING FEEDBACK UPDATE – November 5

OP ZaedynFel

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Stupid question, but why not combine BTB and BTSF into one hopper and call it Ultra Big Team Battle (or whatever)?
I would venture a guess and say most players of BTB and BTSF want to either play one or the other whenever they want and not leave it up to random chance. It's always a great feeling when you go into a playlist hoping to play one game type, but getting a string of game types you don't care for. I dub it the "Action Sack Syndrome".
Having slayer and any number of objective game types in one playlist isn’t anything new. Super Fiesta is just one more possibility. We live with it elsewhere.
As a BtB Enthusiast, I also don't see a problem with combining, but I know of a couple groups that absolutely HATE regular BtB and would not play the playlist if regular BtB was mixed in.

Ideally, I'd like to see a ranked regular BtB game mode and then just have BtBSF (With objectives...BtBSF w/CTF or bomb? - how about BtB SF KOTH).

I think you'd see teams re-forming for ranked play/rank pushing and solos being able to find games quickly.
I don't necessarily see that as a prime option, but what about...

Ranked:
  • Arena
  • Slayer
  • SWAT
  • Squad Battle (6v6) - reduces the big team size to squad level, but makes it ranked
  • Doubles
  • FFA
Social:
  • Quickplay
  • Big Team Super Fiesta (8v8 mixed w/ objectives) - outright replaces regular Super Fiesta & regular BtB by way of combining specific aspects
  • Elimination - keeps commendations available on the regular & moves it into the social setting
  • Infection
  • Featured1 - most pop
  • Featured2 - remaining options
WZ:
  • Warzone
  • Heroic Firefight
  • Legendary Firefight
  • Weekend1 - Warzone Assault
  • Weekend2 - Warzone Turbo
  • Weekend3 - Mythic Firefight
  • Weekend4 - Warzone Assault Turbo or Warzone Warlord (rare)
...this^ as another potential compromise solution? Not sure I'd favor it over the suggestions I've already posted, but nevertheless here's another one that I could potentially get behind as it attempts to keep specific Halo-related experiences that I'd argue are in fact "core" readily available.
QX wrote:
One more thing.

It is very evident by the numbers that super fiesta is the most popular gametype in h5.

But.....

One thing the numbers don’t show is that it is also the most despised gamemode. My friends for the most part will just leave if any random weapon gametype is loaded, that includes warzone for many of them.

So while 25 % of the population may be very much in love with super fiesta please remember out of the 75% that are scattered across other modes a very large undetermined number of those players really don’t enjoy fiesta. It’s just not conductive to the halo experience they enjoy.

There are a lot of halo players that don’t want to play warzone fiesta infection castlewars etc. They want a more classic halo game. Those gamers may be scattered across many playlists but don’t underestimate their numbers. Heck I know some warzone players who won’t touch super fiesta with a 10 foot pole. I would be cautious about catering too much to the fiesta community ( which by the way I enjoy the gametype in small doses.)
Super Fiesta is the most despised game mode. The numbers don't show that it is the most despised mode, but yet and still, sustains a large enough and constant player base despite being the most despised game mode. While I won't dispute your claim that 75% of the population scattered across other playlists probably doesn't like Super Fiesta (because I don't have the access to info that you do), but I'm pretty sure that 75% is compromised largely of people who only stick to one or two playlists, so I'm not so sure I'm willing to claim which mode is despised based on those people.

After all, if Super Fiesta was as despised as you claim, that would bear out in the numbers. People wouldn't play it, and it wouldn't be the most popular list on a consistent basis.
My wording on that post is a little chaotic. Half asleep when I wrote that.

All im saying is if we were to take a poll of gamers favorite gamemode super fiesta would likely win. As at any given time 25% of the population is playing it (previously mentioned in this thread)

im just curious as to what playlist would lead the most disliked category of that were ever polled. The people that I know the most liked playlists are btb and warzone. The most disliked are super fiesta and warzone. People love warzone, people hate warzone and the percentages are very high at both ends, I think it’s the same for the fiestas. We call it salty fiesta because the rage level goes through the roof when we run it.

I know very well more people enjoy super fiesta than don’t. But just don’t underestimate the numbers of those that don’t. Catering too far to super fiesta gametypes could have a very bad effect on the population. I’ve heard more negative reaction to super fiesta than any other gametype. And I’ve gamed with a lot of players.
That's your own bias though. Like you have no hard numbers to actually make these very broad claims. For example myself and almost all of my friends don't mind regular fiesta. We all usually play ranked, TA specifically, but SF is an easy playlist to gets wins and chill without getting mad. I'm sure if you polled every player is H5 about their favorite and least favorite gametypes are SF would win both. But that may just be because it is the most popular playlist and one that the vast majority of players have played.

Also Josh said that at any one time 1 in 4 players is in SF. That doesn't mean 25% of the population likes/plays SF. It is probably a much greater percentage than that since players don't just play 2 mode.
That’s why I said I would be curious to see a poll on this. I know I have no hard numbers. I said almost exactly that. It’s a hunch based on my experiences.

what I do know for sure is that halo needs to be a heck of a lot more than super fiesta to be a success.

By the way. I also enjoy SF in small doses. Just don’t give the gamemode too much love.
eLantern wrote:
Stupid question, but why not combine BTB and BTSF into one hopper and call it Ultra Big Team Battle (or whatever)?
I would venture a guess and say most players of BTB and BTSF want to either play one or the other whenever they want and not leave it up to random chance. It's always a great feeling when you go into a playlist hoping to play one game type, but getting a string of game types you don't care for. I dub it the "Action Sack Syndrome".
Having slayer and any number of objective game types in one playlist isn’t anything new. Super Fiesta is just one more possibility. We live with it elsewhere.
As a BtB Enthusiast, I also don't see a problem with combining, but I know of a couple groups that absolutely HATE regular BtB and would not play the playlist if regular BtB was mixed in.

Ideally, I'd like to see a ranked regular BtB game mode and then just have BtBSF (With objectives...BtBSF w/CTF or bomb? - how about BtB SF KOTH).

I think you'd see teams re-forming for ranked play/rank pushing and solos being able to find games quickly.
I don't necessarily see that as a prime option, but what about...

Ranked:
  • Arena
  • Slayer
  • SWAT
  • Squad Battle (6v6) - reduces the big team size to squad level, but makes it ranked
  • Doubles
  • FFA
Social:
  • Quickplay
  • Big Team Super Fiesta (8v8 mixed w/ objectives) - outright replaces regular Super Fiesta & regular BtB
  • Elimination - keeps commendations available on the regular & moves it into the social setting
  • Infection
  • Featured1 - most pop
  • Featured2 - remaining options
WZ:
  • Warzone
  • Heroic Firefight
  • Legendary Firefight
  • Weekend1 - Warzone Assault
  • Weekend2 - Warzone Turbo
  • Weekend3 - Mythic Firefight
  • Weekend4 - Warzone Assault Turbo or Warzone Warlord
...this^ as another potential compromise solution? Not sure I'd favor it over the suggestions I've already posted, but nevertheless here's another one.
Hmm - Squad battle sounds interesting...We'd probably need some new maps. Traffic jam, ancestor, and port authority would probably be more fun 6v6...but Alter, viking, despelled, recurve could have issues.

I'm somewhat torn with the compromises and it depends on what the goal would be. If we want to draw people back to Halo 5, I don't think this fits the bill. A lot of large team enthusists have left and I don't really see a place for them in the above suggestion. However, if our goal is to just sustain the population that we already have, then the squad battle might not be needed..

Again - I don't know what the correct answer is here. If one were to look at my post history, they'd see me begging for a BtB refresh for a while.

As NoFunnyIdeas mentioned earlier - I think we genuinely need to have the discussion about the lobby glitches that have been happening for over a year. It would be nice to hear if these are being looked at or if they aren't going to be addressed. Good News or Bad News, we really need to know. But I think it's hard to know if the issues with BtB population are the result of BtBSF, Lobby Glitches, Stagnant maps, or any/all combination of these.
6v6 ranked btb sounds like fun. I’ve always wanted a company wars ranked list like halo 2 clan wars. And it would give large competative fireteams a place they feel welcome in h5.
I'd be 100% on board with a ranked squad battle 6v6.
What kind of stuff are talking about with Squad Battle? Is it with BTB maps or just Arena and does it also have vehicles? I could deal with that if it's just a smaller sized BTB.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Also, I see no reason to "protect" playlists at the expense of players who would much rather play another format because of history. We need population, not history.
Your historical decisions caused the decline in population though. Thats what we are getting at. Fix the issues that caused the decline AND CONTINUES TO DECLINE in population. You don't want to talk about history, yet the MMR changes have caused the 15/16 pregame lobby glitch that seems to be too large of an issue to fix.

Do you think players would rather sit and wait in 5 minute increments for games, which in time add up to hours over the course of a few weeks? Or would they rather find games instantaneously, no wait times? I will absolutely get fed up with it when Im solo-queing, so why wouldnt the rest of the population get fed up with waiting too?
The question is, if that's the main issue, why is only BTB declining this fast when every other playlist has the same settings and the same issue, but isn't declining. There's nothing different in BTB for this.

So while I agree it's a pain, I don't think this is the primary factor. The severity is more a symptom of decreasing pop than it is the cause.
So I might be wrong on this since it's not my area, but I believe the issue with the lobby glitch is that in order to track it down, we would need to add additional logging to the client to see exactly what happens, which would mean another client patch and update.

Doing a client update is a "big deal" the way H5 is structured, and would require engaging a large portion of the entire dev team, so is pretty much a non-starter.
ZaedynFel wrote:
So I might be wrong on this since it's not my area, but I believe the issue with the lobby glitch is that in order to track it down, we would need to add additional logging to the client to see exactly what happens, which would mean another client patch and update.

Doing a client update is a "big deal" the way H5 is structured, and would require engaging a large portion of the entire dev team, so is pretty much a non-starter.
Sucks to hear, but atleast it's good to know so we don't have to ask about it all the time.

Is there any information We can provide that would help in narrowing down the issue with the existing tools that are in place? Date/time/Tag/Playlist?
LUKEPOWA wrote:
What kind of stuff are talking about with Squad Battle? Is it with BTB maps or just Arena and does it also have vehicles? I could deal with that if it's just a smaller sized BTB.
I perceive it as a big team light option. A smaller sized big team mode which helps gear it for the ranked environment that lacks a limited JiP. I imagine the maps within would be big team maps that are perhaps a little less vehicle, or heavy vehicle, dependent because of team sizes but still features vehicle combat as a crucial/critical component of the game-play. This would also manage to return non-slayer based objectives to the ranked environment with all spartan abilities enabled. I feel it would draw those who were disappointed in Core Play becoming rotational and peak the interests of dedicated Big Team players who'd love to earn a rank again. Maybe its best to have this playlist be Magnum + AR starts or maybe its best to have it Long-Barrel Recon H5BR + AR? Hard to say from a majority's perspective. Still, the previous compromises I posted earlier would likely be easier to accomplish and they would maintain keeping a true BTB playlist readily available.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Doing a client update is a "big deal" the way H5 is structured, and would require engaging a large portion of the entire dev team, so is pretty much a non-starter.
I recall being told similar things about MCC, but here we are with MCC receiving a total overhaul. I don't see why Halo 5 can't eventually receive similar treatment to improve it's Rest-of-Life condition. It's too good of a game to be left with these types of life-time bugs.
Accidentally double posted.
I kinda want to point out that BTB Super Fiesta is somewhat rotational as well. Once it leaves everyone will split back to Super Fiesta and BTB playlists respectively. Playing solo I can find matches within a minute or 2 even as one of the top 5 MMR players in the playlist.

I'd strongly advice going against removing BTB altogether, simply because a lot of us not only prefer the bigger teams and maps, but it's also the only playlist that uses a BR start. (I personally don't like the Magnum). Tbh, if BTB dies, that'll probably kill the last remaining drive I even have for Halo 5, as I strictly only play BTB this late into it's lifespan. I'm happy we still have about 2 months left minimum so I'll use that time to at least enjoy it.

BTB really just needs a refresh more than anything. We've had the same maps and gamemodes for far too long. Removing a couple unpopular maps and introduces 5 or so new ones would make it immensely less stale, seeing as we've had the same rotation for about a year.
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Also, I see no reason to "protect" playlists at the expense of players who would much rather play another format because of history. We need population, not history.
Your historical decisions caused the decline in population though. Thats what we are getting at. Fix the issues that caused the decline AND CONTINUES TO DECLINE in population. You don't want to talk about history, yet the MMR changes have caused the 15/16 pregame lobby glitch that seems to be too large of an issue to fix.

Do you think players would rather sit and wait in 5 minute increments for games, which in time add up to hours over the course of a few weeks? Or would they rather find games instantaneously, no wait times? I will absolutely get fed up with it when Im solo-queing, so why wouldnt the rest of the population get fed up with waiting too?
The question is, if that's the main issue, why is only BTB declining this fast when every other playlist has the same settings and the same issue, but isn't declining. There's nothing different in BTB for this.

So while I agree it's a pain, I don't think this is the primary factor. The severity is more a symptom of decreasing pop than it is the cause.
I honestly think a pile of people were playing BTB for the,

  1. More chill/relaxed experience
  2. People who don't like Warzone but enjoy large battles and vehicle play
  3. One of the only places to play certain objective game types and the biggest one,
  4. It was a playlist that allowed people to obtain multiple commendations across the board.
I think a good chunk of people went to and are staying at BTBSF because it is now the easiest place to get multiple commendations from Game modes, Vehicle and especially Weapons ones.

I can't emphasize enough how much people going for commendations affects what people play and A LOT of people go for commendations in my experience. I ALWAYS see/saw low level players playing BTB, SF and now BTBSF. I talk quite a bit to players (people I don't know) and I hear the line of "I'm just playing this so I can finish off X commendation" or "I'm playing this because it's the easiest place to work towards getting x commendations" or something along these lines.

I'd bet anything if you made it so you could only get x weapon and/or vehicle commendation say for example in BTB only, that playlist population would go up. Throw in double XP, and for sure it will be.
Stupid question, but why not combine BTB and BTSF into one hopper and call it Ultra Big Team Battle (or whatever)?
How about a BTB SWAT SUPER FIESTA !? EH!?
ZaedynFel wrote:
So I might be wrong on this since it's not my area, but I believe the issue with the lobby glitch is that in order to track it down, we would need to add additional logging to the client to see exactly what happens, which would mean another client patch and update.

Doing a client update is a "big deal" the way H5 is structured, and would require engaging a large portion of the entire dev team, so is pretty much a non-starter.
This is really terrible to hear - I was hoping it was as simple as rolling back whatever changes to filling the lobby/starting the match that were in the last update. It worked perfectly (AFAIK) before then.
Croh wrote:
RIP WZA. literally my favorite thing in H5.
Mine too, almost 7k games, i hope they make it at least weekend, monthly its too little
Man, i play a lot of assault too, it was working fine days before, what happened?

PD: Any hopes of making it weekend only and not a monthly playlist?
ELITE C42 wrote:
Man, i play a lot of assault too, it was working fine days before, what happened?

PD: Any hopes of making it weekend only and not a monthly playlist?
Yea it's sad that is pretty dead now just happened all of a sudden. It's my favorite mode too and yea once a month isn't enough at all. I mean if mythic firefight can come in every weekend, why not assault ?
ELITE C42 wrote:
Man, i play a lot of assault too, it was working fine days before, what happened?

PD: Any hopes of making it weekend only and not a monthly playlist?
Yea it's sad that is pretty dead now just happened all of a sudden. It's my favorite mode too and yea once a month isn't enough at all. I mean if mythic firefight can come in every weekend, why not assault ?
I used to play a lot of assault too. A weekend playlist I think would work very well. It’s at least worth a try before going full rotational.

Perhaps rotating every weekend with turbo. However I like assault much better than turbo.
There's just too many playlists, none of this discussion would be happening if there weren't TWO btb playlists for some reason AND several Warzone playlists.

Consolidate that -Yoink-!

Rotationals are the way to go, be ruthless with it. Halo 5 only needs 7-8 playlists in total at any one time. Most other games have 4-5. The six big staples (at playercounts) and 1-2 different rotationals every week. Social Slayer, HCS, Doubles, BTB, Warzone, Warzone Firefight - that's how I'd do it.

"But I can't play exactly what I want!" - You can't play exactly what you want anyway when the pop is at dumpster levels, and when you can, waiting 3-5 mins for matches, the quality rate is horrendous.

Mixtape matchmaking would help a lot as well.

I also feel somewhat sad that so many are just playing super fiesta, I guess I don't begrudge people playing what they enjoy but the fact it's far more popular than the regular game modes... what does that say about how your average player enjoys Halo 5? They'd rather play a mode where you just get random OP weapons.
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