Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

[Locked] MATCHMAKING FEEDBACK UPDATE – October 22

OP ZaedynFel

  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 5
Ranking Update

The CSR (ranking system) update at the end of each match is currently tuned to converge sharply on each player’s MMR. It does this by only giving a +/-15 or +/-1 depending on which would keep or move CSR the closest it can to each player’s MMR.

We aim to make a change Wednesday that looks at both how close a player is to their MMR as well as how difficult the match itself was. It will combine both into a softer CSR update. Players will see values between -30 and 30 again.

We evaluated the effects of this change on historical data and found that even though it doesn’t necessarily take the fastest step it can towards each player’s MMR, it still results in CSRs being on average just as close to MMRs as the current method, without feeling as draconian.

In addition, we have fixed an issue with leavers. If a match starts 4v4, the first player to leave early will receive a penalty of -30. Any subsequent leavers will lose the same amount of CSR that they would have if they had lost the match. If a match starts with less than 4v4 (e.g. 3v4, etc.), no leaver at that point will get the extra -30 penalty, but only the usual loss penalty.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Ranking UpdateThe CSR (ranking system) update at the end of each match is currently tuned to converge sharply on each player’s MMR. It does this by only giving a +/-15 or +/-1 depending on which would keep or move CSR the closest it can to each player’s MMR.

We aim to make a change Wednesday that looks at both how close a player is to their MMR as well as how difficult the match itself was. It will combine both into a softer CSR update. Players will see values between -30 and 30 again.

We evaluated the effects of this change on historical data and found that even though it doesn’t necessarily take the fastest step it can towards each player’s MMR, it still results in CSRs being on average just as close to MMRs as the current method, without feeling as draconian.

In addition, we have fixed an issue with leavers. If a match starts 4v4, the first player to leave early will receive a penalty of -30. Any subsequent leavers will lose the same amount of CSR that they would have if they had lost the match. If a match starts with less than 4v4 (e.g. 3v4, etc.), no leaver at that point will get the extra -30 penalty, but only the usual loss penalty.
Just a few questions.

1. Is the variance between CSR and MMR still going to be plus or minus 100 or will it be slightly higher?

2. Does T2.0 adjust the expectations of each player when people quit/lag out. Basically when I end up playing a 4v2 because the enemy team wont leave am I being punished since I won't be able to get the KPM expected of me originally.

3. Will we see all the values between +30 and -30 or just set ones albiet more than just 1 or 15?
QX wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Ranking UpdateThe CSR (ranking system) update at the end of each match is currently tuned to converge sharply on each player’s MMR. It does this by only giving a +/-15 or +/-1 depending on which would keep or move CSR the closest it can to each player’s MMR.

We aim to make a change Wednesday that looks at both how close a player is to their MMR as well as how difficult the match itself was. It will combine both into a softer CSR update. Players will see values between -30 and 30 again.

We evaluated the effects of this change on historical data and found that even though it doesn’t necessarily take the fastest step it can towards each player’s MMR, it still results in CSRs being on average just as close to MMRs as the current method, without feeling as draconian.

In addition, we have fixed an issue with leavers. If a match starts 4v4, the first player to leave early will receive a penalty of -30. Any subsequent leavers will lose the same amount of CSR that they would have if they had lost the match. If a match starts with less than 4v4 (e.g. 3v4, etc.), no leaver at that point will get the extra -30 penalty, but only the usual loss penalty.
Just a few questions.

1. Is the variance between CSR and MMR still going to be plus or minus 100 or will it be slightly higher?

2. Does T2.0 adjust the expectations of each player when people quit/lag out. Basically when I end up playing a 4v2 because the enemy team wont leave am I being punished since I won't be able to get the KPM expected of me originally.

3. Will we see all the values between +30 and -30 or just set ones albiet more than just 1 or 15?
  1. It's about the same as before, which on average is in that area. There may be some exceptions over brief periods of time per player. Exceptions also happen if MMR changes quickly out from under a CSR.
  2. A little, though it should come out in the wash.
  3. Yes, all the values.
Now this is a relief to hear. Maybe it's time to start trying to grind for Onyx again...
So, If i quit out of a 3v4 i can still lose full CSR? Thats really dumb.
Also, if im still winnin games for 4+hours straight and not going up at all even if im winning against players of higher ranks than me such as champ n onyx and im performing better than the only the person of higher rank on my team and im still only going up 1 csr, this system is still broken and not fun and not how any ranking system should be. I won probs 75% of my matches this morning and against onyx/champ players with an onyx on my team and i was still hardstuck Diamond 6 for hours and ended up losing more csr than i had gained. i was even performing better than the onyx player on my team more often. The ranking system isnt good and the fact i can still lose full csr for someone quitting out on my team is laughable.
lFi3RY wrote:
So, If i quit out of a 3v4 i can still lose full CSR? Thats really dumb.
Also, if im still winnin games for 4+hours straight and not going up at all even if im winning against players of higher ranks than me such as champ n onyx and im performing better than the only the person of higher rank on my team and im still only going up 1 csr, this system is still broken and not fun and not how any ranking system should be. I won probs 75% of my matches this morning and against onyx/champ players with an onyx on my team and i was still hardstuck Diamond 6 for hours and ended up losing more csr than i had gained. i was even performing better than the onyx player on my team more often. The ranking system isnt good and the fact i can still lose full csr for someone quitting out on my team is laughable.
No, the first person to quit a game loses max CSR. Everyone else that leaves after that loses the amount of CSR you'd lose just for losing the game. It's not a full CSR penalty.
Does this mean I'll rank up when I win games now?
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not promote cheating or griefing.
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
Spoiler:
Show
ZaedynFel wrote:
...
A collection of questions for you Josh:
  • Where is Microsoft Research at with regards to their updates to TS2?
  • If Microsoft Research completed the updates to TS2 have you already been able to perform new batch runs?
  • Assuming you were able to perform new TS2 batch runs does this mean that the Elimination playlist is now fixed?
  • What have you discovered from your investigations into THESE types of MMR/CSR discrepancies?
  • When you listed a 43% chance of winning HERE was that according to the MatchMaker or the Team Balancer?
  • Can you provide a little more detail as to how the new CSR system works?
  • In other words, what are the basic rules that it'll operate under so that people can pass on information such as THIS in the future to those who may be uninformed?
  • What is different in this new CSR adjustment method from the prototype that you mentioned HERE as having been put on hold because it didn't justify the cost of implementing?
  • The new CSR method will still compare Pre-Match CSR to Pre-Match MMR, correct? If so, that means that an individual’s in-game performance won’t have an immediate effect on their CSR adjustment as it'll still lag by at least one match.
  • When this update goes live will it alter the max placement rank cap? It'd be great if Diamond 5 would become the rank-in cap which would be 100 points below Onyx.
  • When this update goes live will it bring back the Champ minimum MMR requirement? It'd be great if Onyx 1600+ was required to earn Champ.
  • Where is the Sustain Team at with regards to the potential Doubles refresh?
  • In other words, have any decisions been made that you can share?
  • Is the Big Team Battle playlist next on the refresh docket?
  • Will you put up a thread asking for input like you did for the Doubles refresh?
  • When will the Long-Barrel Recon H5BR replace the Default Recon H5BR throughout the Arena Environment? It's severely needed.
  • Will you remove the double weighting of maps within the SWAT playlists?
  • And make the SWAT BR map Fathom into a SWAT H2 map?
  • Plus, remove the use of the Russet map from under SWAT BR and SWATnums?
  • Can you provide us with a history chart of all the playlists referring to popularity that dates back to the beginning of the year or before summer/spring? You've provided something similar to this before; though, for a shorter timeframe I believe.
  • Have you formulated any plans toward improving the matchmaking experience for Warzone Assault?
  • What about unlocking basic level UNSC REQ items for all new players and tweaking Armor Mod REQ costs? See the ideas proposed HERE.
I hate the ranking system. It really feels like I drop a lot of rank even when my enemies are higher ranked and/or I have quitters on my team.
Hoping to get some clarification on where I currently stand. During the summer 2018 season I got diamond 1 after my placement matches which is my highest rank achieved. I took a few months off but for this current season I just finished my placement matches and got platinum 3 and played one more game and that pushed my rank to platinum 4.

I am pretty sure during the summer 2018 season the system didn’t push your rank 100 mmr under where your skill showed your mmr to be, but since my rank has never been high enough to display my mmr idk what it is currently and I also want to know how that compares to my summer 2018 mmr for slayer.

Basically i I just want to know how far my skill has dropped since I last played or if my mmr stayed about the same. This is for the ranked slayer playlist only. Thanks in advance.
Hoping to get some clarification on where I currently stand. During the summer 2018 season I got diamond 1 after my placement matches which is my highest rank achieved. I took a few months off but for this current season I just finished my placement matches and got platinum 3 and played one more game and that pushed my rank to platinum 4.

I am pretty sure during the summer 2018 season the system didn’t push your rank 100 mmr under where your skill showed your mmr to be, but since my rank has never been high enough to display my mmr idk what it is currently and I also want to know how that compares to my summer 2018 mmr for slayer.

Basically i I just want to know how far my skill has dropped since I last played or if my mmr stayed about the same. This is for the ranked slayer playlist only. Thanks in advance.
I see roughly the same skill then as now. It's showing 1108 which is [PLAT 5]
My team and I have more or less just reached the point where we laugh at how the ranking system works now. We understand how it is supposed to work thanks to these threads, but in practice...that's a different story.

These are some of the myriad of oddities we have discovered over the past few months:

We can search as a group for a dozen games, win every game, and see no progress in ranks (though still receive a huge penalty if we lose). However, if we then break out and solo queue during the same play session, we all gain rank much faster and are less likely to lose large chunks of rank on a loss. Additionally, after solo queueing for a few games, jumping back into a party results in continuous gains until we lose a game. Then it seems to reset and we stop gaining (though we are less likely to lose large chunks of a rank).

We can play as a team with the player who is performing the worst in that gaming session rapidly gaining ranks, to the point that they overtake the player performing the best. Ex: diamond 1 increases to diamond 5, while the diamond 3 in the same fireteam that is objectively having a much better night stats wise stays rank locked.

Overall, while TS2.0 is allegedly supposed to be more stable, I don't think our ranks have ever been more volatile, in what seems like a pretty arbitrary manner. While our ranks may have been inflated before, we have never had a season until this last where we would all, depending on the day and whether or not we'd been solo queuing, fluidly move between Platinum 6 and Diamond 5, sometimes over the course of a single day.
_____

On a totally separate note, I am not sure what was changed in the last few months, but we have been facing more appropriate stiff competition in matchmaking, and haven't had nearly as many games where we absolutely blow out our opposition. I'm not saying that doesn't still happen, but before the change we had to endure more games where 3/4 of the opposing team would quit after going down 20-2, only to have one guy stick around for the entire duration of the game and waste our time. There should be some sort of mercy rule for 1v4 games solely to prevent this.

_______

On another note, what are the maps in the team slayer rotation? It feels like several good, staple maps have been removed (we have not played overgrowth in two months). We have finally adapted to the map with snipe and OV, though it is not my favorite because of how easy it is for player to run away. However, the map with the ghost is just potatoes. And the map with rockets in the middle, camo under rockets, and two bases is a frame lag nightmare. Every time we load on that map we have lag issues. The sanctuary remake is not bad, but it feels too large, which produces some absolutely terrible spawns, and a lot of the angles that made sanctuary amazing have been removed.
BeeBopBazz wrote:
My team and I have more or less just reached the point where we laugh at how the ranking system works now. We understand how it is supposed to work thanks to these threads, but in practice...that's a different story.

These are some of the myriad of oddities we have discovered over the past few months:

We can search as a group for a dozen games, win every game, and see no progress in ranks (though still receive a huge penalty if we lose). However, if we then break out and solo queue during the same play session, we all gain rank much faster and are less likely to lose large chunks of rank on a loss. Additionally, after solo queueing for a few games, jumping back into a party results in continuous gains until we lose a game. Then it seems to reset and we stop gaining (though we are less likely to lose large chunks of a rank).

We can play as a team with the player who is performing the worst in that gaming session rapidly gaining ranks, to the point that they overtake the player performing the best. Ex: diamond 1 increases to diamond 5, while the diamond 3 in the same fireteam that is objectively having a much better night stats wise stays rank locked.

Overall, while TS2.0 is allegedly supposed to be more stable, I don't think our ranks have ever been more volatile, in what seems like a pretty arbitrary manner. While our ranks may have been inflated before, we have never had a season until this last where we would all, depending on the day and whether or not we'd been solo queuing, fluidly move between Platinum 6 and Diamond 5, sometimes over the course of a single day.
_____

On a totally separate note, I am not sure what was changed in the last few months, but we have been facing more appropriate stiff competition in matchmaking, and haven't had nearly as many games where we absolutely blow out our opposition. I'm not saying that doesn't still happen, but before the change we had to endure more games where 3/4 of the opposing team would quit after going down 20-2, only to have one guy stick around for the entire duration of the game and waste our time. There should be some sort of mercy rule for 1v4 games solely to prevent this.

_______

On another note, what are the maps in the team slayer rotation? It feels like several good, staple maps have been removed (we have not played overgrowth in two months). We have finally adapted to the map with snipe and OV, though it is not my favorite because of how easy it is for player to run away. However, the map with the ghost is just potatoes. And the map with rockets in the middle, camo under rockets, and two bases is a frame lag nightmare. Every time we load on that map we have lag issues. The sanctuary remake is not bad, but it feels too large, which produces some absolutely terrible spawns, and a lot of the angles that made sanctuary amazing have been removed.
I hear ya on the ranking system and a lot of people feel how you do.

Overgrown and Riptide were removed a while back from team Slayer when the new forge maps were added. There might be a other one but can't recall at the moment. The map with the ghost on it is seclusion if I recall and my friends and I love it!. We enjoy some light vehicle play in ranked 4-4 and honestly the ghost is super easy to destroy.

ZaedynFel, any chance we could see a playlist ranking for the last few months?
Any chance we can finally get ranked snipers back, since shotty/mythic shotty snipes is only available for brief periods of time?

Also, how long will the current season last?
Ragection wrote:
Any chance we can finally get ranked snipers back, since shotty/mythic shotty snipes is only available for brief periods of time?

Also, how long will the current season last?
Ranked snipers will almost certainly never come back. It historically always had the lowest ranked playlist population. This late into the gsme's lifecycle population conservation is a must so 343 will only keep playlists that do well.
QX wrote:
Ragection wrote:
Any chance we can finally get ranked snipers back, since shotty/mythic shotty snipes is only available for brief periods of time?

Also, how long will the current season last?
Ranked snipers will almost certainly never come back. It historically always had the lowest ranked playlist population. This late into the gsme's lifecycle population conservation is a must so 343 will only keep playlists that do well.
You could be absolutely right. Only reason why I still have hope is because the previous times ranked snipers was removed (probably for the exact reason you mentioned), it was eventually brought back. The population conservation thing doesn't really make sense to me (granted, I may be biased), because if not many people where actively playing ranked snipers to begin with, which playlists were actually being affected by having snipers as a ranked playlist? The only playlist that is somewhat similar in how it plays is swat. No radars and spawn killing are easier compared to other playlists. Even then, it's different. I obviously don't know every single player that played snipers but from the ones I do know, a decent amount of them went to Slayer, which isn't really in need of a population boost, or they just stopped playing H5 almost entirely.

All of this doesn't really matter obviously, it's just me being salty about not having an actual snipers playlist to play lol. Still love H5 :)
Ragection wrote:
QX wrote:
Ragection wrote:
Any chance we can finally get ranked snipers back, since shotty/mythic shotty snipes is only available for brief periods of time?

Also, how long will the current season last?
Ranked snipers will almost certainly never come back. It historically always had the lowest ranked playlist population. This late into the gsme's lifecycle population conservation is a must so 343 will only keep playlists that do well.
You could be absolutely right. Only reason why I still have hope is because the previous times ranked snipers was removed (probably for the exact reason you mentioned), it was eventually brought back. The population conservation thing doesn't really make sense to me (granted, I may be biased), because if not many people where actively playing ranked snipers to begin with, which playlists were actually being affected by having snipers as a ranked playlist? The only playlist that is somewhat similar in how it plays is swat. No radars and spawn killing are easier compared to other playlists. Even then, it's different. I obviously don't know every single player that played snipers but from the ones I do know, a decent amount of them went to Slayer, which isn't really in need of a population boost, or they just stopped playing H5 almost entirely.

All of this doesn't really matter obviously, it's just me being salty about not having an actual snipers playlist to play lol. Still love H5 :)
I thought ranked snipers never came back after it had been made a permanent ranked list. Like we had a couple of ranked weekends of Snipes early on but I don't really count those.

The issue with population conservation is that while it may only take a small portion of the population for that playlist it still causes worse matchmaking for other lists. Say only 2 percent of the population plays snipers. If those 2 percent are taken out of other lists they could make matchmaking 2 percent worse since it takes longer to find games and there are less people to make even games. However since snipers also has such an abyssmal population it also has terrible matchmaking.

Now you have 1 playlist that had bad matchmaking along with it also making all other playlists X percent worse. So what's the point in keeping it. 343 doesn't want a lot of lists that make general matchmaking slightly worse while also having those lists perform badly. If snipers had a large population then it would be find since it would make matchmaking in other lists worse but snipers would be a decently functioning playlist.
QX wrote:
Ragection wrote:
QX wrote:
Ragection wrote:
Any chance we can finally get ranked snipers back, since shotty/mythic shotty snipes is only available for brief periods of time?

Also, how long will the current season last?
Ranked snipers will almost certainly never come back. It historically always had the lowest ranked playlist population. This late into the gsme's lifecycle population conservation is a must so 343 will only keep playlists that do well.
You could be absolutely right. Only reason why I still have hope is because the previous times ranked snipers was removed (probably for the exact reason you mentioned), it was eventually brought back. The population conservation thing doesn't really make sense to me (granted, I may be biased), because if not many people where actively playing ranked snipers to begin with, which playlists were actually being affected by having snipers as a ranked playlist? The only playlist that is somewhat similar in how it plays is swat. No radars and spawn killing are easier compared to other playlists. Even then, it's different. I obviously don't know every single player that played snipers but from the ones I do know, a decent amount of them went to Slayer, which isn't really in need of a population boost, or they just stopped playing H5 almost entirely.

All of this doesn't really matter obviously, it's just me being salty about not having an actual snipers playlist to play lol. Still love H5 :)
I thought ranked snipers never came back after it had been made a permanent ranked list. Like we had a couple of ranked weekends of Snipes early on but I don't really count those.

The issue with population conservation is that while it may only take a small portion of the population for that playlist it still causes worse matchmaking for other lists. Say only 2 percent of the population plays snipers. If those 2 percent are taken out of other lists they could make matchmaking 2 percent worse since it takes longer to find games and there are less people to make even games. However since snipers also has such an abyssmal population it also has terrible matchmaking.

Now you have 1 playlist that had bad matchmaking along with it also making all other playlists X percent worse. So what's the point in keeping it. 343 doesn't want a lot of lists that make general matchmaking slightly worse while also having those lists perform badly. If snipers had a large population then it would be find since it would make matchmaking in other lists worse but snipers would be a decently functioning playlist.
Oh no, I wasn't talking about the weekend snipers playlists. Iirc, it was first shotty snipers that was ranked for a short while in 2016, before that got scrapped. Some time later, they added team snipers as a ranked playlist, before eventually removing it early on in 2017. Eventually, they brought ranked snipers back, and it was left there for several seasons, before being removed again once Elimination was added as a playlist earlier this year.

Ok, I do suppose it's more important for the overall population of the game to be preserved as long as possible. I see what you mean now. I guess just have to wait and see what they say about it.
BeeBopBazz wrote:
My team and I have more or less just reached the point where we laugh at how the ranking system works now. We understand how it is supposed to work thanks to these threads, but in practice...that's a different story.

These are some of the myriad of oddities we have discovered over the past few months:

We can search as a group for a dozen games, win every game, and see no progress in ranks (though still receive a huge penalty if we lose). However, if we then break out and solo queue during the same play session, we all gain rank much faster and are less likely to lose large chunks of rank on a loss. Additionally, after solo queueing for a few games, jumping back into a party results in continuous gains until we lose a game. Then it seems to reset and we stop gaining (though we are less likely to lose large chunks of a rank).

We can play as a team with the player who is performing the worst in that gaming session rapidly gaining ranks, to the point that they overtake the player performing the best. Ex: diamond 1 increases to diamond 5, while the diamond 3 in the same fireteam that is objectively having a much better night stats wise stays rank locked.

Overall, while TS2.0 is allegedly supposed to be more stable, I don't think our ranks have ever been more volatile, in what seems like a pretty arbitrary manner. While our ranks may have been inflated before, we have never had a season until this last where we would all, depending on the day and whether or not we'd been solo queuing, fluidly move between Platinum 6 and Diamond 5, sometimes over the course of a single day.
_____

On a totally separate note, I am not sure what was changed in the last few months, but we have been facing more appropriate stiff competition in matchmaking, and haven't had nearly as many games where we absolutely blow out our opposition. I'm not saying that doesn't still happen, but before the change we had to endure more games where 3/4 of the opposing team would quit after going down 20-2, only to have one guy stick around for the entire duration of the game and waste our time. There should be some sort of mercy rule for 1v4 games solely to prevent this.

_______

On another note, what are the maps in the team slayer rotation? It feels like several good, staple maps have been removed (we have not played overgrowth in two months). We have finally adapted to the map with snipe and OV, though it is not my favorite because of how easy it is for player to run away. However, the map with the ghost is just potatoes. And the map with rockets in the middle, camo under rockets, and two bases is a frame lag nightmare. Every time we load on that map we have lag issues. The sanctuary remake is not bad, but it feels too large, which produces some absolutely terrible spawns, and a lot of the angles that made sanctuary amazing have been removed.
I hear ya on the ranking system and a lot of people feel how you do.

Overgrown and Riptide were removed a while back from team Slayer when the new forge maps were added. There might be a other one but can't recall at the moment. The map with the ghost on it is seclusion if I recall and my friends and I love it!. We enjoy some light vehicle play in ranked 4-4 and honestly the ghost is super easy to destroy.

ZaedynFel, any chance we could see a playlist ranking for the last few months?
Eh, we feel differently about seclusion. Our entire strategy at this point revolves around me getting control of the ghost and retaining control, sometimes for the entire game. We basically just play keep away where I don't engage one target too hard, I just cause enough problems for them that the rest of my team can push on them and wipe them. Rinse and repeat. The only two real counters to this strategy are the plasma pistol and hydra, both of which are easy to control. The sentinel beam melts the ghost, but if you are constantly moving around playing keep away it isn't a real counter. If the fuel rod cannon were replaced by a tracking rocket launcher, it might work better as it would be harder to control three weapon spawns instead of two and might force me to play a more active role in protecting hydra spawn. IDK. I don't feel the map plays fairly for the other team when we properly use this strategy.

The Asylum variant is surprisingly terrible to play on, and that is coming from someone who loved the originals. It is too easy to get and retain control over the opposing team's sniper due to the angle changes. And if you don't push the opposite side of the map and set two people up on each carbine the opposing team can only spawn in front of you, so you can spawn kill almost indefinitely because of how powerful the carbine is. It also seems possible to force only rocks spawns on one side of the map (we unintentionally did this a few weeks ago when one person who was on our side carbine pushed the opposing snipe when it spawned, blocking off base spawns).
  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 5