Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – October 9

OP ZaedynFel

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LUKEPOWA wrote:
SGO SMACK wrote:
Can you please explain to me why you insist on catering to solo searching players in team playlists? The point of the team playlist is communicate and play like a team. If you can’t find 12, there is 8, if you can’t find 8 there is 4, if you can’t find 2, there is FFA. People who don’t want to communicate and don’t want to party up should expect to feel some pain. The people who are smart enough to play with a team in a team playlist should not be penalized because potatoes want to be potatoes. This applies to both arena opponents and wz teammates.
There have been solo players since Halo has been online so I don't know why people insist that solo players should only play in parties because it's never going to change.
They don’t have to. I am fine with that. I’m just saying, they should be prepared to lose more than 50% of their games because of it. We shouldn’t penalize a team for being a team. Randoms should be penalized for being alone... and they already are! It already works. Leave it alone!
SGO SMACK wrote:
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
eLantern wrote:
SGO SMACK wrote:
If you assume a to4 diamond can play more like onyx’s and because of that, a to4 diamonds has to play against a to4 random onyx’s, they are going to get smoked.

this new system probably works decent for the silver vs gold level of players but a to4 low level onyx players will get stomped by a to4 random champs.
It’s fine in social modes. I just don’t want to see it in ranked play.
I don't really have an opinion about whether this feature should be in ranked or not. I'm personally fine with teams having an advantage over solo players in Ranked. Use your main account for your team play, and make an alt account to play as your solo ranked account - that simple. But I also don't think it would break the ranked playlists to include this adjustment. It would in theory just make the ranks more accurate...?

I THINK Josh previously said that the MMR team adjustment would be used for choosing balanced/fair matches, but NOT for computing CSR adjustments after the match, so you would still gain a lot of CSR if you beat a team of solo onyx players while running a To4 mid-diamonds. In other words, it would still be in your interest to roll with a team if you want to rank up. (Josh, please correct me if I'm wrong there). I personally think that's the best way - it rewards you with rank improvements if you can play effectively as a team, but doesn't give you hopeless matches if you're a solo player.

In any case, for social playlists I think the team MMR adjustment factor would be quite helpful.
I hear you rzr, I think this debate is more about philosophy. I don’t think players who refuse to play as a team should be rewarded with any kind of advantage. For the life of me I can’t figure out why they insist on trying to make it easy for players who are unsupporting. Especially in objective based games.

these players are actively saying, I don’t care about teamwork. I don’t care if I play with a team. I don’t care if I have a mic or make one useful callout. I’m not pulling one single flag. Those players deserve some kind of balancing advantage so they have a better chance of winning? WHAT?

they are not losing 99:1 because they are solo, they are losing 99:1 because they are bad at the game.
This is so painfully obvious, I can’t figure out why someone as smart as Menke is overlooking the obvious. Take 4 randoms with coms and put them against a to4 with the same rank and see if it’s still 99:1.
What advantage are you talking about? All he did was tighten the overall MMR of the entire party vs a solo team so the matches wouldn't be blowouts every single game. If the solo team doesn't communicate or work together, they will still most likely lose, but if they do the opposite, it's likely that they can either compete with the party or even win. Shocking, the solo team that worked like a party can possibly win. There's nothing wrong with that.
This is stupid. How are you gonna bring back 12 man Warzone then take it down a day later? How the matching worked then was just fine. You're trying to make things easier for random solo players in a team based playlist. That's like putting a fireteam limit of 2 in a Ranked Playlist because solo players are getting roflstomped by 4 man teams. Teams shouldn't be punished just for being good at the game. If randoms match a full team and get completely stomped, that's their fault. You need to stop all this hand holding. I matched a full team of mostly 99 in Warzone Assault and I did just fine. Playing against full teams encourage players to get better at the game and make their own teams.

If you keep doing crap like this, it'll only hurt the game more. Bring back 12 man Warzone again. How matchmaking was when you brought it back worked just fine. Not only that, but a lot more people were playing again and the population went up. I know you're just trying to do your job and make things more balanced. I respect that a lot. But you can't make everyone happy. No matter how you look at it, random solo players will still get decimated by any competent team no matter what the playlist. Stop punishing teams just for being good. You should be encouraging solo players to play with a team in a playlist like Warzone which was made for huge team vs team warfare.
SGO SMACK wrote:
This is so painfully obvious, I can’t figure out why someone as smart as Menke is overlooking the obvious. Take 4 randoms with coms and put them against a to4 with the same rank and see if it’s still 99:1.
I think your over reacting on this. Ive read a few of your posts here and you have to understand that solo players are the foundation to Halo. Its been that way since dirt was on this planet. Lets just see how this plays out.
SGO SMACK wrote:
This is so painfully obvious, I can’t figure out why someone as smart as Menke is overlooking the obvious. Take 4 randoms with coms and put them against a to4 with the same rank and see if it’s still 99:1.
I think your over reacting on this. Ive read a few of your posts here and you have to understand that solo players are the foundation to Halo. Its been that way since dirt was on this planet. Lets just see how this plays out.
Actually teams are the foundation of Halo given how it's a game that centers heavily on teamwork and the majority of all its gametypes are team based.
SGO SMACK wrote:
This is so painfully obvious, I can’t figure out why someone as smart as Menke is overlooking the obvious. Take 4 randoms with coms and put them against a to4 with the same rank and see if it’s still 99:1.
I think your over reacting on this. Ive read a few of your posts here and you have to understand that solo players are the foundation to Halo. Its been that way since dirt was on this planet. Lets just see how this plays out.
Actually teams are the foundation of Halo given how it's a game that centers heavily on teamwork and the majority of all its gametypes are team based.
Idk about that at all.. I just cant see how you come to that conclusion. So are you saying there are more teams playing H5 then solo players? As far as teamwork and team based game types that's all subjective. Far as I know solo players can play team based games and perform as a team. So are you counting them as a team or solo players? I think the biggest problem SGO SMACK has is a communication problem with solo players. Which I can understand. But that's a players choice to use a mic or not on that level. Whatever the case maybe lets just see what Josh comes up with and see how this all plays out. I think at the end of the day things will be fine.
This is stupid. How are you gonna bring back 12 man Warzone then take it down a day later? How the matching worked then was just fine.
Dr. Menke explained in the first post why it was removed, it was an issue that wasn't on 343's end.
ZaedynFel wrote:
The early results were promising, but we discovered an issue that forced us to take the rule down for the time being. The issue doesn’t sit on the 343 side of the fence, so I don’t have an ETA now.
SGO SMACK wrote:
This is so painfully obvious, I can’t figure out why someone as smart as Menke is overlooking the obvious. Take 4 randoms with coms and put them against a to4 with the same rank and see if it’s still 99:1.
I think your over reacting on this. Ive read a few of your posts here and you have to understand that solo players are the foundation to Halo. Its been that way since dirt was on this planet. Lets just see how this plays out.
Actually teams are the foundation of Halo given how it's a game that centers heavily on teamwork and the majority of all its gametypes are team based.
Idk about that at all.. I just cant see how you come to that conclusion. So are you saying there are more teams playing H5 then solo players? As far as teamwork and team based game types that's all subjective. Far as I know solo players can play team based games and perform as a team. So are you counting them as a team or solo players? I think the biggest problem SGO SMACK has is a communication problem with solo players. Which I can understand. But that's a players choice to use a mic or not on that level. Whatever the case maybe lets just see what Josh comes up with and see how this all plays out. I think at the end of the day things will be fine.
I don’t doubt that the majority of players are solo. The problem is, they created a team based game. If solo players are the majority of your population and your game is team based, solve that problem. Don’t punish people who play as a team by giving a solo group a kind of “we need help because we’re solo” type of advantage in the match making algo. All you’re doing is giving solo players incentive to never work as a team and communicate. They shouldn’t be rewarded for playing badly.
I understand the point of view that if you get into a to4 you should get to enjoy the advantage, and that solos should be punished and learn to party up.

But I fundamentally disagree with it on several levels.

First, I have no qualms at all about completely removing that advantage if possible. If I can find 4 solo players who play well enough to challenge a to4 and make the match 50/50, I will do it EVERY. TIME. It's not like a to4 is going to be playing these 4 solo players and thinking, "Whoah, this sucks because they are playing in such a weird and different way than an equally skilled to4 would play, this is so different and not fun"

The contract matchmaking has with our players is to give as close to 50/50 as we can. We're not going to give you easier matches because you're in a to4. If I had unlimited to4s to matchmake you with, I would still give you a to4 of exactly your same skill and call it good.

The problem is, at the very top, unless 4 Pro players happen to be searching solo at exactly the same time, it will be impossible to find a group of 4 players who can go 50/50 with a Champ to4. So it will be almost impossible for a player to get to the top of Champ playing completely solo, and the very top teams will go higher than 50/50, and that's also fine. So as far as the top of the leaderboard goes, it will still be exclusively to4s, except for the occasional Pro who can sometimes carry even at that level.

Second, there's no reason for me to make a to4 wait an extra 20 minutes until we find another to4 of their own skill before they can play, when I know I have 4 solo players who will give them almost exactly the same experience. Likewise for 4 random solo players near the top. If the gameplay experience is the same, I have no qualms about making the match.

Players are happier and stay engaged in the game more if 1) they find a match faster and 2) matches aren't unfair. The only way to do this across the board fairly is to aim for 50/50.

And as to your question about comms, yes, we still have millions of data points showing players on comms losing to randos. That skill gap is just as quantifiable.

I've been matching larger teams for almost 15 years now, and haven't seen anything to change my opinion on this.
Josh, how does the team balancer interact with the system's need to match people only within a SD or two? Which one takes precedence there? I guess I'm asking - ignoring the top champ conundrum - how willing is the system to throw out matches it knows are unbalanced?
I am sad the larger fireteam changes were pulled - but I am glad to see you guys make progress with them.

I could tell something wasn't right when I tried solo queuing WZ...so hopefully this issue can be resolved quickly.

You mentioned this problem lays outside of 343 - are you allowed to share where the issue stems from so we as consumers can provide feedback to the appropriate vendors?
Thorulfr wrote:
Josh, how does the team balancer interact with the system's need to match people only within a SD or two? Which one takes precedence there? I guess I'm asking - ignoring the top champ conundrum - how willing is the system to throw out matches it knows are unbalanced?
They are separate rules and both must be satisfied for a match to be made. If the balancer is happy, but there are two players with a wide gap, the match won't be made. Likewise, if the player gaps are within one SD, but because of parties the best team gap too large, the match can't be made.
I am sad the larger fireteam changes were pulled - but I am glad to see you guys make progress with them.

I could tell something wasn't right when I tried solo queuing WZ...so hopefully this issue can be resolved quickly.

You mentioned this problem lays outside of 343 - are you allowed to share where the issue stems from so we as consumers can provide feedback to the appropriate vendors?
No, it's all still within Microsoft, but a different team controls the actual matchmaker. We control the inputs to the matchmaker. The issue lies within one of the rules we want ot use to improve matchmaking. It needs just a little more work.

They know there's an issue, and are working towards a solution.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
12-Player Fireteams Warzone Feedback had been mostly positive, with a few of you pointing out that it was still possible to get into one-sided matches. We did see matches that look unfair when looking at the raw skill gap between teams, however the matches would have looked fair to the matchmaker because it treats players above a certain skill level as equal.
If we run 12-player Fireteams again, we will probably move that cut-off point up higher. This will mean that the best 12-player Fireteams won’t default to playing weaker amalgamations of solo players and will instead wait indefinitely for other top teams to play.
I won’t have further updates on this feature until the rule discussed above is re-introduced first.
This is great news. I think allowing 12-man has a lot of potential for great matchups at the high-skill tier, and ALSO allows people of lower skills to still party up and play with 11 friends, but get put into fair matches against higher-skill solo players rather than waiting hours to finally match a To12 god-squad. But it just has to be done right... allowing 2.0 MMR solo players (or small fireteams) to constantly match a god squad To12s with all 4.0 MMRs is just not a good option.

I'd like to add - I think it's really important to lower the restrictions on player-to-player skill, but keep the team-to-team skill tight. Many folks have been complaining that the recent MMR tightening has made it virtually impossible for high MMR players to find games in any social playlist. While it's fair for TEAMS with insanely high MMR to have matchmaking struggles in a social playlist (because no other team has comparable team MMR), those high MMR players should be able to search solo (or with a small fireteam) and still find games. It's not right for people who paid money for the game, and pay an XBL subscription, to be excluded from playing at all.
We would definitely have to lower the player-player restrictions if we unclamp in order to preserve the same population. We'll also consider lower them past what they were before.

The caveat with this is that the wider that gap, and the better you are as a solo queuing player, the worse the players you will get on your team. So, yes, the new balancer will make the match 50/50, but partly because we expect you to carry.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
One other suggestion - I think this basically already happens, but it would be good if selecting "expanded" search would allow you to match players and teams of more varied MMR, meaning you'd tolerate matches against significantly better or significantly worse players and/or teams, but only if those other players can't find better matches elsewhere! That way if you're searching in a To12, you have the best possible chance of matching another To12 searching at that time. Otherwise it seems possible for 2 teams (with somewhat different MMRs) to TRY to match each other, but still both fail to find any game at all, because their MMRs are too far apart.

On the other hand, if moderate-skill players want to avoid matches with blowout potential, they just search focused or balanced and the MM will be tighter, though they may wait a lot longer.

But it just seems so silly that I solo-search a social playlist like WZA on "expanded" and can't find games at all...
Yeah, in general it would be cool to be able to alter expansion rules on a per player basis. It's not a functionality we have on the current platform, but one we have on the "list"
SGO SMACK wrote:
Can you please explain to me why you insist on catering to solo searching players in team playlists? The point of the team playlist is communicate and play like a team. If you can’t find 12, there is 8, if you can’t find 8 there is 4, if you can’t find 2, there is FFA. People who don’t want to communicate and don’t want to party up should expect to feel some pain. The people who are smart enough to play with a team in a team playlist should not be penalized because potatoes want to be potatoes. This applies to both arena opponents and wz teammates.
We don't have a goal to cater to solos, we have a goal for it to be equal across the board. We will not punish players for being solo. It's already less fun being alone in general (in my opinion), no need to also give them harder matches. Also, a lot of players actually prefer to play alone. Turns out there are some less than social folks in the internets.

Currently, the system is still biased towards teams, which is also not fair. You shouldn't get to win more because you're in a team.

You should potentially get to a higher rank because of synergy, but no, I'm not going to make life worse for others because of it.
How does matchmaking work for 343 unicorn skin play dates? Are skill and fire team size restrictions removed so everyone has a fair chance?
No, if I'm being honest, those restrictions are not removed and, yes, that does make it harder to get the unicorn.
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