Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

Halo 5: Matchmaking Feedback Update - Mar 15 2019

OP ZaedynFel

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QX wrote:
Flipflex wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Flipflex wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Flipflex wrote:
Latest evidence of my above expressed concerns .
lookup my GT on halo tracker for date 11/17/19 : flipflex

as you’ll note, I went 17 wins and only 3 losses. Overall kd and kda well into the positive range .
my rank netted out to basically be the same as when I started the night .
this doesn’t make sense . Such a high win percentage (if as mentioned wins being most heavily weighted should yield a greater CSR gain in total if the system was functioning as intended .
either we are playing under a bugged ranking system or we are all prisoners to a faulty system working within the confines of a depleted halo 5 population where it may be time to apply a new algorithm .
thanks in advance for reviewing and providing feedback...
please return to the ranking system that was present previously it was working well !
The Ranking system has not changed one bit and is, in fact, more accurate than ever.

Win percentages and KD are ignored and irrelevant. As stated, it matters who you beat, and what your kpm is against the skill of your opponents. If you are winning and not going up, then you are performing as expected. If you beat a team that the system expects you to beat, you will not go up. If your kpm is the same as predicted for that match, you will not go up.

Population is not effecting this. If you play a team that is too easy, you should not only win, but have a high performance. This is not happening in your data. When you play easier teams, your performance is as expected.

I see no evidence in your recent performances that you deserve a higher CSR. You have been playing like a Diamond 2 player (see graph):

In addition, your kpm vs. Onyx players is only 1.06, which is low Diamond.

If you were Onyx, you would have a kpm of 1.56 against Onyx players, like the average Onyx player does.

Your win% against Onyx is also only 27%
Thanks for the info and response , but in my opinion I still find the system faulty . Not rankimg up after going 17-3 doesn’t make any sense .
additionally, our team never played “ a team of onyx players.”
we played teams with occasionally an onyx sprinkled in with several diamonds .
i was an onyx about a month ago , and I was playing the exact same way as I am now .
if the system was working correctly I never would have been able to make it to onyx using the logic you mentioned as it would have been mathematically impossible unless I “ beat your system “ but I heard this new algorithm prevents inflation . This isn’t the case if I made it to onyx and my mmr is d2.
Player skill swings all the time, both up and down. If you dip from Onyx to Diamond, then either you got worse, a lot of players got better, a lot of players got better faster than you, or a lot of players got worse slower than you. There are a lot of ways that can happen.

You have played 11 matches against teams that had an average MMR between 1500 and 1650. You have won 3 of them.
Cool thanks for the info ; still sticking to my Line of reasoning lol .
but anyways back to halo I don’t care about rank that much anyway just fun playing but ya would be nice to see a moving bar with wins and losses simple as that .
Except a moving bar with wins and losses doesn't imply any skill.

Think about it this way. Say you are the best player in the world and play a 1v1 playlist. This would mean that you would never (or very rarely) lose any games at all. That makes sense because you are the best player and therefore would win more than anyone else. That also means that your "moving bar" would never stop moving up and only be limited by the amount of games you can put it. However, player skill doesn't work like that. Even if you were the best player in the world your skill would reach a personal ceiling at some point. So in order to have an accurate measure of skill, your CSR and MMR rank would top out at some point (simply because you cannot perform any better than you are possibly able to do). In that scenario a better measure of skill would have your CSR rank stop increasing and top out at whatever point your skill is. From that point on wins shouldn't net you any CSR since you have already achieved the correct skill level equivalent in CSR. You would be the highest and number 1 but your skill would be shown correctly.

Now apply that to your current rank. You have been perfoming at a low diamond level of play (shown by Josh, the guy who has data on every game ever played in H5 and every player). That doesn't mean you have been losing games. All that means is that in the games you have been played you have performing at a diamond 2 level of skill. Therefore even if you win your CSR shouldn't increase significantly because you aren't at those higher skill levels. The same thing goes if you lose. If you are performing at your current skill level and you lose you shouldn't lose any significant CSR.

What you are asking for is a ladder based system which is misleading in terms of skill. Being onyx in previous seasons means nothing because player skill varies, population skill varies, and they do consistent batch runs to fix misleading CSR ranks.
For old times sake I will give you this game to analyze.
Tell me the best player on my team and who is the worst.

https://www.halowaypoint.com/it-it/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/065e92eb-278f-46c5-9995-2a10360f0f01/players/nbk%20darkwarlock?gameHistoryMatchIndex=3&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=All
The Performances from TrueSkill2 line up with the kill counts for that match. The 19 and 15 kills players both had more kills than expected so their MMRs went up. The 12-kill player had the highest MMR before the game, and they killed as expected, so didn't change much.

The 4-kill player did worse than expected, but not much was expected from them in this match so their MMR didn't change much ( Plat played like a Plat).
ZaedynFel wrote:
QX wrote:
Flipflex wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Flipflex wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Flipflex wrote:
Latest evidence of my above expressed concerns .
lookup my GT on halo tracker for date 11/17/19 : flipflex

as you’ll note, I went 17 wins and only 3 losses. Overall kd and kda well into the positive range .
my rank netted out to basically be the same as when I started the night .
this doesn’t make sense . Such a high win percentage (if as mentioned wins being most heavily weighted should yield a greater CSR gain in total if the system was functioning as intended .
either we are playing under a bugged ranking system or we are all prisoners to a faulty system working within the confines of a depleted halo 5 population where it may be time to apply a new algorithm .
thanks in advance for reviewing and providing feedback...
please return to the ranking system that was present previously it was working well !
The Ranking system has not changed one bit and is, in fact, more accurate than ever.

Win percentages and KD are ignored and irrelevant. As stated, it matters who you beat, and what your kpm is against the skill of your opponents. If you are winning and not going up, then you are performing as expected. If you beat a team that the system expects you to beat, you will not go up. If your kpm is the same as predicted for that match, you will not go up.

Population is not effecting this. If you play a team that is too easy, you should not only win, but have a high performance. This is not happening in your data. When you play easier teams, your performance is as expected.

I see no evidence in your recent performances that you deserve a higher CSR. You have been playing like a Diamond 2 player (see graph):

In addition, your kpm vs. Onyx players is only 1.06, which is low Diamond.

If you were Onyx, you would have a kpm of 1.56 against Onyx players, like the average Onyx player does.

Your win% against Onyx is also only 27%
Thanks for the info and response , but in my opinion I still find the system faulty . Not rankimg up after going 17-3 doesn’t make any sense .
additionally, our team never played “ a team of onyx players.”
we played teams with occasionally an onyx sprinkled in with several diamonds .
i was an onyx about a month ago , and I was playing the exact same way as I am now .
if the system was working correctly I never would have been able to make it to onyx using the logic you mentioned as it would have been mathematically impossible unless I “ beat your system “ but I heard this new algorithm prevents inflation . This isn’t the case if I made it to onyx and my mmr is d2.
Player skill swings all the time, both up and down. If you dip from Onyx to Diamond, then either you got worse, a lot of players got better, a lot of players got better faster than you, or a lot of players got worse slower than you. There are a lot of ways that can happen.

You have played 11 matches against teams that had an average MMR between 1500 and 1650. You have won 3 of them.
Cool thanks for the info ; still sticking to my Line of reasoning lol .
but anyways back to halo I don’t care about rank that much anyway just fun playing but ya would be nice to see a moving bar with wins and losses simple as that .
Except a moving bar with wins and losses doesn't imply any skill.

Think about it this way. Say you are the best player in the world and play a 1v1 playlist. This would mean that you would never (or very rarely) lose any games at all. That makes sense because you are the best player and therefore would win more than anyone else. That also means that your "moving bar" would never stop moving up and only be limited by the amount of games you can put it. However, player skill doesn't work like that. Even if you were the best player in the world your skill would reach a personal ceiling at some point. So in order to have an accurate measure of skill, your CSR and MMR rank would top out at some point (simply because you cannot perform any better than you are possibly able to do). In that scenario a better measure of skill would have your CSR rank stop increasing and top out at whatever point your skill is. From that point on wins shouldn't net you any CSR since you have already achieved the correct skill level equivalent in CSR. You would be the highest and number 1 but your skill would be shown correctly.

Now apply that to your current rank. You have been perfoming at a low diamond level of play (shown by Josh, the guy who has data on every game ever played in H5 and every player). That doesn't mean you have been losing games. All that means is that in the games you have been played you have performing at a diamond 2 level of skill. Therefore even if you win your CSR shouldn't increase significantly because you aren't at those higher skill levels. The same thing goes if you lose. If you are performing at your current skill level and you lose you shouldn't lose any significant CSR.

What you are asking for is a ladder based system which is misleading in terms of skill. Being onyx in previous seasons means nothing because player skill varies, population skill varies, and they do consistent batch runs to fix misleading CSR ranks.
For old times sake I will give you this game to analyze.
Tell me the best player on my team and who is the worst.

https://www.halowaypoint.com/it-it/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/065e92eb-278f-46c5-9995-2a10360f0f01/players/nbk%20darkwarlock?gameHistoryMatchIndex=3&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=All
The Performances from TrueSkill2 line up with the kill counts for that match. The 19 and 15 kills players both had more kills than expected so their MMRs went up. The 12-kill player had the highest MMR before the game, and they killed as expected, so didn't change much.

The 4-kill player did worse than expected, but not much was expected from them in this match so their MMR didn't change much ( Plat played like a Plat).
The worst player is the one with 19 kills but TS2 can't understand why.
If you look the game you will notice me and my friend mastro and zero made a perfect spawn trap, the enemy could not make a step without dying but the first player ruined it.
He made a big error but he will be unpunished for this
If you look the game you will notice me and my friend mastro and zero made a perfect spawn trap, the enemy could not make a step without dying but the first player ruined it.
He made a big error but he will be unpunished for this
Not sure why that's relevant. He may have been the worst player with strategy, but he got the most kills for your team and was rewarded for that.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
If you look the game you will notice me and my friend mastro and zero made a perfect spawn trap, the enemy could not make a step without dying but the first player ruined it.
He made a big error but he will be unpunished for this
Not sure why that's relevant. He may have been the worst player with strategy, but he got the most kills for your team and was rewarded for that.
While spawn trapping can help you win, it is not the objective. You don't get any extra points for "spawn trapping"

So unless your spawn trapping actually wins you the game, it's actually taking away from the win, and not adding to it.

In the data, spawn trapping only works if you can pull it off given your entire team. Even if you know how to do it well with just a couple of you, in the data, it's actually better to not focus on spawn trapping if the rest of your team isn't going to support you.

So, no, that does not make him the worst player. Spawn trapping alone is not more important in the data itself than just getting more kills. The teams that spawn trap consistently do not win as many matches against harder opponents as the teams that don't spawn trap as effectively, but still kill well. At least, not in matchmaking for SWAT.

At the higher end, it's also tricky to consistently spawn trap a team that knows you're doing it anyways.
ZaedynFel wrote:
LUKEPOWA wrote:
If you look the game you will notice me and my friend mastro and zero made a perfect spawn trap, the enemy could not make a step without dying but the first player ruined it.
He made a big error but he will be unpunished for this
Not sure why that's relevant. He may have been the worst player with strategy, but he got the most kills for your team and was rewarded for that.
While spawn trapping can help you win, it is not the objective. You don't get any extra points for "spawn trapping"

So unless your spawn trapping actually wins you the game, it's actually taking away from the win, and not adding to it.

In the data, spawn trapping only works if you can pull it off given your entire team. Even if you know how to do it well with just a couple of you, in the data, it's actually better to not focus on spawn trapping if the rest of your team isn't going to support you.

So, no, that does not make him the worst player. Spawn trapping alone is not more important in the data itself than just getting more kills. The teams that spawn trap consistently do not win as many matches against harder opponents as the teams that don't spawn trap as effectively, but still kill well. At least, not in matchmaking for SWAT.

At the higher end, it's also tricky to consistently spawn trap a team that knows you're doing it anyways.
It is relevant because we could have lost a closed game because a onyx (1800) did not recognize a spawn trap (the problem with spawn trapping is the backfire) so right now we have many onyx player who don't know how the spawn works or which is the better position to fight.
Spawn trapping is a glass cannon but it is the best way to win (taking in account things like lag) and right now TS2 is killing it with thing like KPM (the best player was the diamond 1 player with only 4 kills).
ZaedynFel wrote:
LUKEPOWA wrote:
If you look the game you will notice me and my friend mastro and zero made a perfect spawn trap, the enemy could not make a step without dying but the first player ruined it.
He made a big error but he will be unpunished for this
Not sure why that's relevant. He may have been the worst player with strategy, but he got the most kills for your team and was rewarded for that.
While spawn trapping can help you win, it is not the objective. You don't get any extra points for "spawn trapping"

So unless your spawn trapping actually wins you the game, it's actually taking away from the win, and not adding to it.

In the data, spawn trapping only works if you can pull it off given your entire team. Even if you know how to do it well with just a couple of you, in the data, it's actually better to not focus on spawn trapping if the rest of your team isn't going to support you.

So, no, that does not make him the worst player. Spawn trapping alone is not more important in the data itself than just getting more kills. The teams that spawn trap consistently do not win as many matches against harder opponents as the teams that don't spawn trap as effectively, but still kill well. At least, not in matchmaking for SWAT.

At the higher end, it's also tricky to consistently spawn trap a team that knows you're doing it anyways.
It is relevant because we could have lost a closed game because a onyx (1800) did not recognize a spawn trap (the problem with spawn trapping is the backfire) so right now we have many onyx player who don't know how the spawn works or which is the better position to fight.
Spawn trapping is a glass cannon but it is the best way to win (taking in account things like lag) and right now TS2 is killing it with thing like KPM (the best player was the diamond 1 player with only 4 kills).
Except playing SWAT at a high level doesn't require a glass cannon spawn trap. There are extremely effective spawn traps that lead to great wins. However, high level players know the angles and how to break out of them. Instead the best players know how to read spawns and angles to keep players spawn rotating so that the enemy doesn't spawn together and peaks worse angles.

If your best strategy is one that is classified as a glass cannon then it is probably not the best strategy.
What about your placement on your team? Like 1st place on the winning team versus 2-4, same with the losing team..does this influence CSR? Like if playerA is first place on the winning team does he gain more csr then playerB on the winning team? I’d like you to go into detail on those specifics.

Lastly you mentioned that the number of games played in that playlist influences CSR. Can you elaborate on that?
What about your placement on your team? Like 1st place on the winning team versus 2-4, same with the losing team..does this influence CSR? Like if playerA is first place on the winning team does he gain more csr then playerB on the winning team? I’d like you to go into detail on those specifics.

Lastly you mentioned that the number of games played in that playlist influences CSR. Can you elaborate on that?
Josh said that kills per minute is the next most important factor after winning when it comes to ranking up. Since your placement on your team in the match results is based on number of kills, being placed first on your team means you got more kills than the rest of your team in the same amount of time, and therefore had a higher kpm. However, kpm relative to the rest of your team doesn’t matter so much; what matters is your kpm relative to all other players who have ever played in the playlist. If you win and your kpm is at the expected level of your skill, then you won’t rank up much because it means your rank is already accurate and doesn’t need adjustment. If your kpm is higher than expected, then you’ll rank up more since the system was wrong in its prediction and will adjust accordingly.

So getting more kills is good if you’re trying to rank up, but getting more kills than your teammates won’t necessarily be enough to show the system you deserve to rank up. The only time I could see doing vastly better than your teammates would definitely translate to a significant rank up is if you all were around the same skill level.
Chimera30 wrote:
What about your placement on your team? Like 1st place on the winning team versus 2-4, same with the losing team..does this influence CSR? Like if playerA is first place on the winning team does he gain more csr then playerB on the winning team? I’d like you to go into detail on those specifics.

Lastly you mentioned that the number of games played in that playlist influences CSR. Can you elaborate on that?
Josh said that kills per minute is the next most important factor after winning when it comes to ranking up. Since your placement on your team in the match results is based on number of kills, being placed first on your team means you got more kills than the rest of your team in the same amount of time, and therefore had a higher kpm. However, kpm relative to the rest of your team doesn’t matter so much; what matters is your kpm relative to all other players who have ever played in the playlist. If you win and your kpm is at the expected level of your skill, then you won’t rank up much because it means your rank is already accurate and doesn’t need adjustment. If your kpm is higher than expected, then you’ll rank up more since the system was wrong in its prediction and will adjust accordingly.

So getting more kills is good if you’re trying to rank up, but getting more kills than your teammates won’t necessarily be enough to show the system you deserve to rank up. The only time I could see doing vastly better than your teammates would definitely translate to a significant rank up is if you all were around the same skill level.
Frustrating because I could have an -Yoink- K/D and be a shot teammate but as long as I have a Hugh Jon is rank up?
And what about my second question?
The take home point seems to be run around like a chicken with your head cut off and get as many kills as possible , as fast as possible .
this line of thinking has nothing to do with skill , strategy , teamwork . In my opinion , is a poor basis for a ranking system .
Can I see a graph that plots my MMR compared to my CSR about a month ago when I was onyx(1517).
and then a separate graph that compares my present MMR to CSR(diamond 3).
i would like to see how much I was able to “inflate” my rank one month ago within the current ranking system. Lol .
thanks
Flipflex wrote:
The take home point seems to be run around like a chicken with your head cut off and get as many kills as possible , as fast as possible .
this line of thinking has nothing to do with skill , strategy , teamwork . In my opinion , is a poor basis for a ranking system .
Still got to win the match, first and foremost. Running around like a chicken with your head cutoff trying to get as many kills as possible, as fast as possible, often does NOT lend itself to game winning play. Strategic fast paced game-play continuously keeps opponents in a weak defensive position. And to sustain that throughout a game requires a ton of game knowledge, fantastic team coordination, & personal technical skills combined with the mastering of advanced techniques. That's the real take home point.
Frustrating because I could have an -Yoink- K/D and be a shot teammate but as long as I have a Hugh Jon is rank up?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say but it doesn't sound like the case at all. The way to rank up is to play like a higher ranking player, which means getting more kills than a typical player at your current rank. But if you lose the match then it won't really matter, so being a good teammate is still in your best interest. If you ignore your team and go off on your own to lone wolf, you might die more often or the rest of your team might fall to the opponents' superior tactics/teamwork. It's been shown that teamwork and communication leads to more victories.
And what about my second question?
I answered what I could.
QX wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
LUKEPOWA wrote:
If you look the game you will notice me and my friend mastro and zero made a perfect spawn trap, the enemy could not make a step without dying but the first player ruined it.
He made a big error but he will be unpunished for this
Not sure why that's relevant. He may have been the worst player with strategy, but he got the most kills for your team and was rewarded for that.
While spawn trapping can help you win, it is not the objective. You don't get any extra points for "spawn trapping"

So unless your spawn trapping actually wins you the game, it's actually taking away from the win, and not adding to it.

In the data, spawn trapping only works if you can pull it off given your entire team. Even if you know how to do it well with just a couple of you, in the data, it's actually better to not focus on spawn trapping if the rest of your team isn't going to support you.

So, no, that does not make him the worst player. Spawn trapping alone is not more important in the data itself than just getting more kills. The teams that spawn trap consistently do not win as many matches against harder opponents as the teams that don't spawn trap as effectively, but still kill well. At least, not in matchmaking for SWAT.

At the higher end, it's also tricky to consistently spawn trap a team that knows you're doing it anyways.
It is relevant because we could have lost a closed game because a onyx (1800) did not recognize a spawn trap (the problem with spawn trapping is the backfire) so right now we have many onyx player who don't know how the spawn works or which is the better position to fight.
Spawn trapping is a glass cannon but it is the best way to win (taking in account things like lag) and right now TS2 is killing it with thing like KPM (the best player was the diamond 1 player with only 4 kills).
Except playing SWAT at a high level doesn't require a glass cannon spawn trap. There are extremely effective spawn traps that lead to great wins. However, high level players know the angles and how to break out of them. Instead the best players know how to read spawns and angles to keep players spawn rotating so that the enemy doesn't spawn together and peaks worse angles.

If your best strategy is one that is classified as a glass cannon then it is probably not the best strategy.
taking in account things like lag (i have a ping around 120 playing in the european server and above 200 playing in east us) and thrust me I literally trapped the top champions in maps like thruth and plaza where there is no escape
Is BTB going to remain ranked? It has been very difficult to find a game lately and it did not seem that way when it was social. Thanks
Does anyone still play halo 4 multiplayer? When I try to join a matchmaking game it says "The halo 4 servers are not available. Please try again later. Matchmaking has switched to using the default playlist." What's going on? I just renewed my membership to play some halo 4.
Does anyone still play halo 4 multiplayer? When I try to join a matchmaking game it says "The halo 4 servers are not available. Please try again later. Matchmaking has switched to using the default playlist." What's going on? I just renewed my membership to play some halo 4.
This thread is for support for Halo 5, not legacy games. I see you have already created a topic for that, please keep to that one thanks.
Ahvvi wrote:
Is BTB going to remain ranked? It has been very difficult to find a game lately and it did not seem that way when it was social. Thanks
I don’t think it being ranked is the problem I just think it’s a big playlist and since Halo 5’s pop has shrunk I doubt you’ll ever find a game unless you que up with a good size fire team (similar to war zone from what I hear).
Are there any plans to enforce bans more strictly based on quitting games? It’s so frustrating to win a few in a row but they all give you +1 CSR and then when you lose a game you get punished and de ranked bc you don’t quit when you are getting beat...
maybe change threshold of when the opposing member leaves versus gives experience? I believe it’s if the opposing team has at least 30 kills before anyone quits then you still gain normal amount of CSR...maybe lower to 25 if I’m correct?
Are there any plans to enforce bans more strictly based on quitting games? It’s so frustrating to win a few in a row but they all give you +1 CSR and then when you lose a game you get punished and de ranked bc you don’t quit when you are getting beat...
maybe change threshold of when the opposing member leaves versus gives experience? I believe it’s if the opposing team has at least 30 kills before anyone quits then you still gain normal amount of CSR...maybe lower to 25 if I’m correct?
I think you are misunderstanding how the quitting mechanic works in H5.

If you are the first person to quit in a ranked game you lose a increase amount of CSR as a punishment for quitting instead of playing the game out.

However if one of your teammates quit then you, and the rest of your teammates, can quit without penalty. All that will happen is you will lose CSR equal to the amount you would have lost if you lost the game anyways. So when you are down member the game doesn't punish you for quitting.

Now when any player quits the game redefines the "variables" expected of you from the game. This means that you won't be hurt by having an enemy quit and now you are expected to maintain a certain KPM with only 3 enemies instead of 4. So the enemy quitting doesn't hurt you besides making your gaming experience worse from a quality standpoint.

There is no CSR benefit to quitting when you are losing or anytime at all.

Also as a reminder if you are getting only 1 CSR for a win that means that you are reaching the top of your personal skill. The only way to increase your CSR is then to perform at a higher skilled level. It's not a bad thing when you hit that barrier its just mechanic to stop players from being overranked.
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