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[Locked] Proving Grounds - Official Feedback Thread

OP Unyshek

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Miggy1483 wrote:
I think a "buff" to walking (if we can call it that) with your gun up is an acceptable trade off, personally i see it more as a "nerf" to sprinting around like a madman and playing like a -Yoink- crouching in a corner with an SMG or Plasma rifle. Movement with your gun at the ready should be the most empowering mode of traversal, thats classic Halo.
BMS becoming relevant again is a big plus for me as well.
I've just played a straight 10 games and the new motion tracker is fantastic the range is perfect and since, I haven't seen a single camper and there is a lot less irritating Spartan charging around the map. I love it this way so in my opinion it should be implemented into all modes.
Miggy1483 wrote:
I think a "buff" to walking (if we can call it that) with your gun up is an acceptable trade off, personally i see it more as a "nerf" to sprinting around like a madman and playing like a -Yoink- crouching in a corner with an SMG or Plasma rifle. Movement with your gun at the ready should be the most empowering mode of traversal, thats classic Halo.
BMS becoming relevant again is a big plus for me as well.
Agree with both of you, its beginning to feel more like a halo game now!
More power to Spartan Charge, bloody brilliant!

If you're trying to use the new radar settings to your advantage by walking and not sprinting in matches, then sprinting Spartans will just charge you in a second and finish you off with three rounds from ANY weapon. Besides Spartan Charge (nerf the -Yoinking!- thing already) I like the radar change. But when you're trying to work with it by not sprinting, Spartan Charge gets a ridiculous edge at anything but long range. I can't see myself backing these changes without changes to Spartan Charge.
Personally, I like the new changes. I enjoyed my placement matches a lot. I was solo queing so I did have a few games that I lost by quite a bit, but ended with 120 kills and 75 deaths. I find that the changes will take some getting used to. I can tell by my gameplay, along with my enemies and teammates that at times we were playing as if it were normal slayer with normal settings. Still quite a bit of sprinting and Spartan ability usage that got a lot of people spotted on the motion tracker. I think, however, with more practice of this play style (less fast, more sneaky) players will easily adjust to these settings. All in all I like the new settings because it allows for both fast and slow gameplay to coexist, while being more strategic. For example, while me and my teammates were fighting 2 players on the other team, we were flanked from behind and killed by the other half of the team. While you can certainly do this with the normal motion tracker, the new one makes it so that you have to be more aware of something like that. It makes you rely more on your mental ability of knowing the game rather than just relying on the motion tracker.
More power to Spartan Charge, bloody brilliant!

If you're trying to use the new radar settings to your advantage by walking and not sprinting in matches, then sprinting Spartans will just charge you in a second and finish you off with three rounds from ANY weapon. Besides Spartan Charge (nerf the -Yoinking!- thing already) I like the radar change. But when you're trying to work with it by not sprinting, Spartan Charge gets a ridiculous edge at anything but long range. I can't see myself backing these changes without changes to Spartan Charge.
In all honesty in my 10 games playing it so far I've seen charge used twice, once by me and one by an opposing player. I don't know if it's really that common.
More power to Spartan Charge, bloody brilliant!

If you're trying to use the new radar settings to your advantage by walking and not sprinting in matches, then sprinting Spartans will just charge you in a second and finish you off with three rounds from ANY weapon. Besides Spartan Charge (nerf the -Yoinking!- thing already) I like the radar change. But when you're trying to work with it by not sprinting, Spartan Charge gets a ridiculous edge at anything but long range. I can't see myself backing these changes without changes to Spartan Charge.
I think you mean less??

Sprinting and spartan charge show on the old radar and new radar. The old radar was 18 meters and the new is 25 meaning you have 7 extra meters of warning if someone is sprinting to charge you. Whether or not you are sprinting yourself has no effect on your ability to dodge a spartan charge since you primarily do that with thrust which can be used immediately regardless of what speed you are already moving.
As a long time Halo player, dating back to the LAN party days on Combat Evolved. I have to say I feel the Motion Tracker change is unpleasant.

One of the things I've always used to convince new friends and coworkers to try the series is the motion tracker. Unlike all the "realistic" shooters like COD and Battlefield you can use information to your advantage and get the drop on people by reading a situation before stumbling blindly into it. This radar change shot that in the foot. You added all these new fun ways to get around with our new Halo engine allowing a new dimension of skills and I feel this punishes the use of those, though I will say the drop in Spartan Charges (the only gamebreaking ability in my opinion) was pretty nice.

I feel this separates the gap between a team of randoms and a team in communication even further. Which the competitive teams will justly love. But for going solo this change makes those frustrating "I was just going against all four of them....again" matches into a hopeless experience where a teams communications trumps a solo players skill.

It also gave the game a strange feel. It seemed the close range weapons were more worthwhile at any distance which wasn't greater than the new 25m motion tracker goes. Which breaks that great balance Halo 5 struck where the close, mid, and long games all mixed well for once. You can use the mid to long effectively with this change if you shoot from above and off to the side where you aren't seen. But walking around with a pistol or DMR out is a death sentence when Ol' Assault Rifle Andy comes waltzing around a random corner 6 feet away with no warning.

This motion tracker change also makes crouching meaningless. The only reason to crouch now is for those idiots who do it repeatedly in mid-range combat trying to throw of your aim, which has never worked by the way. With the traditional Halo motion tracker a well time crouch walk could change the game while poorly timing use of crouch left one a sitting duck. Is this 343's subtle way of hinting we may be getting rid of crouch in Halo 6 to free up a button for a mysteries new action? Probably not, but it wouldn't surprise me with the way this feels.

In summary, this just feels like a step towards making Halo into a clone of all the other shooters out there. And eliminates the valuable, and unique skill of using the motion tracker and map knowledge to know what your enemy is doing around that corner, and plan an encounter before it happens. We're punishing solo players by boosting effectiveness of teams in communication (who have the advantage already.) This makes the game reactive instead of proactive and takes the hunt and movement based game of getting your position based on theirs down to walk slowly, and never play the game alone.

Some changes I think could provide a similar gameplay change without taking away a unique Halo feature would be: disable Spartan Charge it's broken and frustrating, give us a limited duration of use and a cool down on sprint IE the Armor Ability version in Reach. Or disable sprint altogether. Though keeping other movement options like thruster pack, clamber, and ground pound are a must.

Again I understand the people who like this are the more competitive 4 person teams that are in constant contact. And I can see how this appeals to them, maybe make this the new Slayer Pro and make it a separate playlist so folks like me don't have to touch it. Because I feel I would probably lose interest in Halo's multiplayer if I had to play only this. I see a lot of people throwing around "make all ranked playlists like this." I simply ask please don't. I like going for high rank and trash talking my friends and coworkers about whose ranked highest each month. Let those of us that appreciate the unique skill set the motion tracker brings to the franchise enjoy it further.
Edit: I forgot to mention this stuff

Im loving the new radar though. I do feel like my heads up awareness is -Yoink- atm, and i keep crouch walking unnecessarily. but both of those are my issue, not the game.
3 bullet points:

- Was able to outplay people by taking alternate routes and not using SAs when they were.
- Also got similarly outplayed but felt like i got "beat" not "screwed", which is a stark difference that i have no problem with.
- When i did have to hide, i found myself hiding in spots that covered the most entrances instead of just the most hidden spot with my AR out not having any fun.

I would like to address a few things that I have seen in this thread with a combination of points i have made through discussions here, TB and Reddit over the last few days. I think they are all relevant to some of the arguments i have seen in here which seem misunderstood or are being considered without full context. After having played a bunch of modified radar games, all of these have born out to be true in my experience and opinion:

To address why a bump up in the radar "speed limit" is needed in Halo 5:

The speed of the game has been moved from being 2 tiered like past games to 3 and 4 tiered. Previously game speed manipulation in order from slowest to fastest came from:

1) Crouch walking
2) Jogging (spartans never truly "walk" in the game)
2.5) Reach and 4 had limited sprinting with significant cooldown hence the "2.5" designation.

And now the speed is like this:

1) Crouch Walking
2) Jogging
3) Sprinting that is faster than Reach and 4 AND infinite so you are never forced to stop. This is already a significant speed increase of the sprinting of Reach and 4
4) Sprinting + Spartan Abilities even faster than #3

Basically, the delta between the slowest movement (crouch walking) and the fastest movement (Sprint+slide+thrust+jump combo) is incredibly wide. Way more than every other game. This is enhanced by the 8 second respawn as well. Given this incredibly increased delta, why should the "Speed limit" for when you show on radar and when you don't show on radar be the same? Here is a response I gave in a previous post:

Quote:
I just don't see the downside. People like crouch for "stealth plays", so now you have a more efficient option. You can make stealth plays at a greater speed, but still not SO FAST and it opens up routes for making longer jumps. Sprinting and SAs are so necessary and prevalent in the game that the decision you have to to make to play stealthily will be shifted from "should i crouch?" to "Should i use spartan abilities?". it gives stealth players more options while also preventing pure chaos from taking over.
To address "crouch plays are useless now":
1) This is not true. Crouching is still incredibly useful and really more and more necessary the higher-up in level that you get. Here is a quick list:
  • Croching behind cover
  • Crouch-jumping to avoid clambering so you can keep your gun up
  • Crouch is necessary for sliding (part of the slide-boost combo and useful for diving under cover and CQB weapons)
  • Crouching during gunfights to make people miss
  • crouch to silence footsteps
2) I would argue that the best use of crouch to stay off default radar isn't to make stealth plays, it's just to hide. And yes there is a difference. Stealth = Making a play while hidden quickly and efficiently. The "quick" and "Efficient" part is impossible with default radar. Also, with the increase in game speed, comes an increase in map size to accommodate. With both of those increases together. crouching around to try to "Make a play" really isn't effective. You can't actually move anywhere fast enough so if you are playing a team with even kind-of OK awareness and game speed, you wont be effective at "Making a play". This basically relegates stealth plays to camping and waiting for someone to come by.

New vs Traditional food for thought:

There also seem to be a lot of people that are OK with the new spartan abilities but also want to retain traditional radar "as it has always been". This really doesn't make sense for me. If you are OK with all of the speed elements that have sped up the game considerably, shouldn't you be ok with a radar modification to accommodate that? This is NOT to turn this into a discussion about said mechanics, just to point out the hypocrisy of that argument.
EC Fox wrote:
snip
I'm partially deaf, so I like the extra help.
I can understand that but this is coming from someone who has played competitively since 2006. Maybe Team Arena could solely have this new radar for the competitive/HCS players and the launch radar could remain in other playlists. I hope you agree with the need to remove walking from the radar at least.
As a long time Halo player, dating back to the LAN party days on Combat Evolved. I have to say I feel the Motion Tracker change is unpleasant.

One of the things I've always used to convince new friends and coworkers to try the series is the motion tracker. Unlike all the "realistic" shooters like COD and Battlefield you can use information to your advantage and get the drop on people by reading a situation before stumbling blindly into it. This radar change shot that in the foot. You added all these new fun ways to get around with our new Halo engine allowing a new dimension of skills and I feel this punishes the use of those, though I will say the drop in Spartan Charges (the only gamebreaking ability in my opinion) was pretty nice.

Traditional radar punishes those abilities too. New radar just doesn't punish base movement speed. With traditional radar you cant outmaneuver another player that is actually paying attention. Crouch walking is much too slow and any other movement shows up on radar so they will know exactly where you are. And yes, spartan charge has got to go :)I feel this separates the gap between a team of randoms and a team in communication even further. Which the competitive teams will justly love. But for going solo this change makes those frustrating "I was just going against all four of them....again" matches into a hopeless experience where a teams communications trumps a solo players skill.

This is absolutely true but this will help separate ranks more accurately and with Josh's improvements to the rank system should help even out the experience as a whole but allowing those sweatier teams to move out of your pool of potential opponents more quickly. Besides, ranked is about seeing how you stack up against the competition meaning teamwork should be essential. Why is rewarding that a bad thing? I think the problems you cite here are certainly valid but are better addressed with a more accurate rank and matchmaking system, which is being implemented as we speak.It also gave the game a strange feel. It seemed the close range weapons were more worthwhile at any distance which wasn't greater than the new 25m motion tracker goes. Which breaks that great balance Halo 5 struck where the close, mid, and long games all mixed well for once. You can use the mid to long effectively with this change if you shoot from above and off to the side where you aren't seen. But walking around with a pistol or DMR out is a death sentence when Ol' Assault Rifle Andy comes waltzing around a random corner 6 feet away with no warning.

Given the current weapon balance, If you have your magnum out when you are moving towards a door that is only 6 feet away, isn't it your fault for not switching to the more appropriate weapon for the range of confrontation that could happen, whether you know its coming or not? Otherwise the issue with that isn't the lack of motion tracker, its the fact that the AR is OP? Also, in this scenario you say that you have no warning, but neither does the other guy.This motion tracker change also makes crouching meaningless. The only reason to crouch now is for those idiots who do it repeatedly in mid-range combat trying to throw of your aim, which has never worked by the way. With the traditional Halo motion tracker a well time crouch walk could change the game while poorly timing use of crouch left one a sitting duck. Is this 343's subtle way of hinting we may be getting rid of crouch in Halo 6 to free up a button for a mysteries new action? Probably not, but it wouldn't surprise me with the way this feels.

This is not true at all. See my above post about all the ways that crouching is still useful and necessaryIn summary, this just feels like a step towards making Halo into a clone of all the other shooters out there. And eliminates the valuable, and unique skill of using the motion tracker and map knowledge to know what your enemy is doing around that corner, and plan an encounter before it happens. We're punishing solo players by boosting effectiveness of teams in communication (who have the advantage already.) This makes the game reactive instead of proactive and takes the hunt and movement based game of getting your position based on theirs down to walk slowly, and never play the game alone.

I addressed most of these points already so im not going to rehash it :)Some changes I think could provide a similar gameplay change without taking away a unique Halo feature would be: disable Spartan Charge it's broken and frustrating, give us a limited duration of use and a cool down on sprint IE the Armor Ability version in Reach. Or disable sprint altogether. Though keeping other movement options like thruster pack, clamber, and ground pound are a must.

I'm mostly with you on this oneAgain I understand the people who like this are the more competitive 4 person teams that are in constant contact. And I can see how this appeals to them, maybe make this the new Slayer Pro and make it a separate playlist so folks like me don't have to touch it. Because I feel I would probably lose interest in Halo's multiplayer if I had to play only this. I see a lot of people throwing around "make all ranked playlists like this." I simply ask please don't. I like going for high rank and trash talking my friends and coworkers about whose ranked highest each month. Let those of us that appreciate the unique skill set the motion tracker brings to the franchise enjoy it further.

I'm with you on this too. I don't see why this radar couldn't be used in only certain lists and not others. I think the "Universality" that 343 has been trying to push with Halo is misguided and that they are rethinking this idea, especially for a game that built most of its popularity on just how customizable it is and how many different experiences a single game can give you.
Bolded above ^^Sorry multiquoting on waypoint is -Yoink-
Uuv wrote:
I wanted to say that I liked the change, but I just don't. I've just noticed people not wanting to even bother try walking around the maps now. Game play has just slowed down, and is rather stale.
So how is gameplay getting slowed down if people aren't using the BMS?
It may have just been my luck, but I played 20 games of it last night to judge it, but I'll probably play a bit more of it today. But in a majority of those 20 matches, it just seemed like more and more people were hiding in corners, relying only on surprise encounters, and hardly even bothered trying to roam the map. It just felt stale to me.

But then again, it could have just been those matches coincidentally, and I'm not properly judging it. Mostly using BMS feels great to me, but it'd be better if I saw other people walking about again.
Uuv wrote:
Uuv wrote:
I wanted to say that I liked the change, but I just don't. I've just noticed people not wanting to even bother try walking around the maps now. Game play has just slowed down, and is rather stale.
So how is gameplay getting slowed down if people aren't using the BMS?
It may have just been my luck, but I played 20 games of it last night to judge it, but I'll probably play a bit more of it today. But in a majority of those 20 matches, it just seemed like more and more people were hiding in corners, relying only on surprise encounters, and hardly even bothered trying to roam the map. It just felt stale to me.

But then again, it could have just been those matches coincidentally, and I'm not properly judging it. Mostly using BMS feels great to me, but it'd be better if I saw other people walking about again.
I guess there's croutching as well, I never really use it for movement purposes so never thought of it. I won't make a full detailed judgement yet till a week or so from now as people will still be trying to adjust to the different play style and such. I've found (I'm a victim too) many players had issues moving around due to old habits from the vanilla game. So many are used to sprinting where you still find many people doing it, resulting in them showing up near power weapons and getting killed when they could've just BMS it to maybe change the encounter. Same thing with ctf, I use thrusters a lot to speed(I flag juggle too but only if the way is clear where it's worth giving up my position with backup guarding the paths to me) up the movement of the flag, now I need to try and not do so since I'll give my position away if I'm by myself.

Honestly i think people need to just wait a bit before giving a full analysis, there's still more to learn on what works and how new playstyles can get involved and people are still just trying to get used to abilities showing up on radar while other things don't.

This ones random and off topic but @everyone in general: is it me or are the spawns even worse in this playlist? I see many people get right back to my position when they die, just as an example on edam strongholds my group wiped out a group of 4 only to then have them wipe us out in probably a 10-15 second span. (Probably going to go back and watch the gameplay vids).
Played with the new radar last night and it just seems silly IMHO. It slows the game down and effectively rewards people for walking, and punishes anyone who sprints/uses abilities. If you want people to play this style, just make a "Classic" gametype with no sprint or abilities.

The reason people prefer no radar, is because it requires the highest level of awareness and communication to succeed. With this new "radar", it simply is going to reward those who walked around the map the most.

Just turn the thing off.
I'm sick and tired of getting matched up against teams/parties of 4. The only thing I am "proving" is that I don't want to play this playlist because of this.

Settings are much better.

Autos need a nerf in their time to kill. Reward players for using precision weapons.
I love this new radar. I'd actually take it over the current one.
Clamber shouldn't be radar.
I get far too many kills simply because I "walked" and someone else sprinted. Absolutely zero skill involved. They simply pressed 1 button, and I didn't. So cheesy for top level play to have to deal with this.

Turn radar off and let the teams with the best awareness/communication thrive.
Uuv wrote:
Uuv wrote:
I wanted to say that I liked the change, but I just don't. I've just noticed people not wanting to even bother try walking around the maps now. Game play has just slowed down, and is rather stale.
So how is gameplay getting slowed down if people aren't using the BMS?
It may have just been my luck, but I played 20 games of it last night to judge it, but I'll probably play a bit more of it today. But in a majority of those 20 matches, it just seemed like more and more people were hiding in corners, relying only on surprise encounters, and hardly even bothered trying to roam the map. It just felt stale to me.

But then again, it could have just been those matches coincidentally, and I'm not properly judging it. Mostly using BMS feels great to me, but it'd be better if I saw other people walking about again.
I guess there's croutching as well, I never really use it for movement purposes so never thought of it. I won't make a full detailed judgement yet till a week or so from now as people will still be trying to adjust to the different play style and such. I've found (I'm a victim too) many players had issues moving around due to old habits from the vanilla game. So many are used to sprinting where you still find many people doing it, resulting in them showing up near power weapons and getting killed when they could've just BMS it to maybe change the encounter. Same thing with ctf, I use thrusters a lot to speed(I flag juggle too but only if the way is clear where it's worth giving up my position with backup guarding the paths to me) up the movement of the flag, now I need to try and not do so since I'll give my position away if I'm by myself.

Honestly i think people need to just wait a bit before giving a full analysis, there's still more to learn on what works and how new playstyles can get involved and people are still just trying to get used to abilities showing up on radar while other things don't.

This ones random and off topic but @everyone in general: is it me or are the spawns even worse in this playlist? I see many people get right back to my position when they die, just as an example on edam strongholds my group wiped out a group of 4 only to then have them wipe us out in probably a 10-15 second span. (Probably going to go back and watch the gameplay vids).
Yeah, I can agree to that. I guess it isn't too fair to judge it entirely yet until everybody changes their playstyles up a little more. I'll probably be giving it a go all week long to see how it evolves/devolves, whichever the outcome.

Also, in response to your offtopic reply, I hadn't really seen much of a difference in spawns compared to vanilla game modes, except for on maps that hadn't really seen Strongholds previously, like Overgrowth or Mercy.
I'm not a fan of this I played 15 or so games last night and the amount of times I've backed into some one or been assassinated/beat down is way too much. I think you should be on radar when walking around, please don't remove this because I didn't agree with the change I don't want to get banned again.
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