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Ranking System needs 2 indicators: Skill & Exp

OP LengthiestLiON

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Below is an old reddit post discussing what we should expect from a ranking system (with a focus on MCC), nevertheless I believe this is the framework 343 needs to return to and build around for Halo 6.

I know people loved Halo 2's ranking system which serves as the current format for ranked playlists. It's a great indicator of skill but it lacks one of the key components needed to understand a challenger you're faced against. The second component I speak of is time.

When you're comparing job applicants for example, you want to know two things about their prior work history. The first being the amount of time spent in the role, and second what was accomplished during the time in the role. This is what I want when looking at a player profile. How long have they been playing the game and what level of skill have they displayed during the time span played. Halo 2 never accomplished this, games like reach and COD abandoned skill and only went with experience. Halo 3 accomplished this by having both a true skill 1-50 and an overall exp for winning games. It allowed me to immediately size up players. Maybe they were newer but really skilled, maybe they were very experienced and had a great feel for maps/gameplay, but lacked the skill to make it to general. I know it received criticism b/c of boosters but how often did you actually see a general in matchmaking that wasn't at least above average? 70-80% of the time they were monsters and the other 20-30% they were still very good. Even if the rare booster got by they would immediately get called out in the plethora of custom games our once great halo community played religiously. The amount of custom games I played (and essentially everyone who was a true halo fan) during the halo 3 days easily pushes into the thousands of hours, constantly meeting new people on a daily basis for years. During those days I never viewed boosting or encountered it as a problem during the halo 3 days.

Ultimately, Halo needs a new ranking system that gives players a sense of both skill and experience. I'm not saying bring back Halo 3 but we need something more than just half a job application... experience matters.
Halo 5 has the Spartan Rank, which is a direct indicator of experience in terms of games played. And you can see that whenever you check a player's profile. And ranks of players in prior seasons can be checked through Waypoint. So I think Halo 5 has you covered. Unless I'm missing something, that is.
Halo 5 has the Spartan Rank, which is a direct indicator of experience in terms of games played. And you can see that whenever you check a player's profile. And ranks of players in prior seasons can be checked through Waypoint. So I think Halo 5 has you covered. Unless I'm missing something, that is.
I'll be completely honest I didn't pick up Halo 5 until last year for cheap after refusing to play it since seeing gameplay footage prior to the game's release. I played a few games, took it out of my console, and immediately went back to MCC. I just want to love Halo again as much as our community did back during halo 2 and 3 days during its prime. Halo 5 most certainly does not have me covered. Aside from it's gameplay, any game with resetting ranks is a disgrace to father time. But I have full respect in your decision in regards to the time and enjoyment you've put/got out of Halo 5. Don't take my displeasure with 5 as an insult to you or anyone who still plays 5.
So then, the stuff about being able to see players' ranks (skill) and experience wasn't what you really wanted to talk about. Gotcha.
While ranks are reset every season, you can see their history and your high water mark in Waypoint. We don't take it away.
Below is an old reddit post discussing what we should expect from a ranking system (with a focus on MCC), nevertheless I believe this is the framework 343 needs to return to and build around for Halo 6.

I know people loved Halo 2's ranking system which serves as the current format for ranked playlists. It's a great indicator of skill but it lacks one of the key components needed to understand a challenger you're faced against. The second component I speak of is time.

When you're comparing job applicants for example, you want to know two things about their prior work history. The first being the amount of time spent in the role, and second what was accomplished during the time in the role. This is what I want when looking at a player profile. How long have they been playing the game and what level of skill have they displayed during the time span played. Halo 2 never accomplished this, games like reach and COD abandoned skill and only went with experience. Halo 3 accomplished this by having both a true skill 1-50 and an overall exp for winning games. It allowed me to immediately size up players. Maybe they were newer but really skilled, maybe they were very experienced and had a great feel for maps/gameplay, but lacked the skill to make it to general. I know it received criticism b/c of boosters but how often did you actually see a general in matchmaking that wasn't at least above average? 70-80% of the time they were monsters and the other 20-30% they were still very good. Even if the rare booster got by they would immediately get called out in the plethora of custom games our once great halo community played religiously. The amount of custom games I played (and essentially everyone who was a true halo fan) during the halo 3 days easily pushes into the thousands of hours, constantly meeting new people on a daily basis for years. During those days I never viewed boosting or encountered it as a problem during the halo 3 days.

Ultimately, Halo needs a new ranking system that gives players a sense of both skill and experience. I'm not saying bring back Halo 3 but we need something more than just half a job application... experience matters.
I think you are in the wrong area my friend. There are better parts of the forum to post this to.

I do believe that playlists need a skill rank that resets and an exp based rank similar to H3 so that players have something to grind for.

The issue for 1-50 is that it leaves a ceiling that can be reached and makes it hard to distinguish how good a player actually is. That's where the exp system helped somewhat since a more veteran player was probably better.

H5's ranking system gives you a really good idea of how good a player is without a exp based system but then it hurts players who want to grind for something.
So then, the stuff about being able to see players' ranks (skill) and experience wasn't what you really wanted to talk about. Gotcha.
I never transitioned away from the framework, I merely responded to your comment stating that Halo 5 could have me covered. It's pretty common knowledge that Halo 4 and 5 took the series into a direction that has left Halo in the depressing state it's currently in. It's clear that you enjoyed 5 enough to play it as much as you have which I respect. But it's clear to everyone that Halo Infinite must be built around the framework that old school Bungie used to create the magic that we once cherished. I'm sure there are some good aspects that 343 can use from 4/5, but the time to try a new direction is over. Halo can't afford to sink any deeper. The framework of the ranking/progression system is still the focus but any new ideas that were implemented in 4/5 need to be done away with until a proper core is established for the framework pulling from Halo in its prime. I respect 343's creative pride in their work, but it just didn't take Halo in the right direction, hopefully it's not too late.
ZaedynFel wrote:
While ranks are reset every season, you can see their history and your high water mark in Waypoint. We don't take it away.
Think back to a classic custom game of Omega Journey with a full lobby of a variety of different rank/skill/experience combinations. One should be able to quickly scan through and size up every player in that lobby within 20-30 seconds without the need to keep their laptop next to them and look up a full lobby of player profiles on the internet. Additionally, player bases just don't respond well to resetting ranks, it feels so meaningless and as if my time spent was nothing more than a waste. How would you feel if I reset all of the experience you've gained throughout your entire career and made you reset your resume to a blank sheet. Only to be back to square one on par with that fresh new intern. Sure it stays in your profile but what I described is how it feels to see your rank reset, a feel shot to the gut. The only way to keep players coming back is if the gameplay is beyond amazing.
QX wrote:
Below is an old reddit post discussing what we should expect from a ranking system (with a focus on MCC), nevertheless I believe this is the framework 343 needs to return to and build around for Halo 6.

I know people loved Halo 2's ranking system which serves as the current format for ranked playlists. It's a great indicator of skill but it lacks one of the key components needed to understand a challenger you're faced against. The second component I speak of is time.

When you're comparing job applicants for example, you want to know two things about their prior work history. The first being the amount of time spent in the role, and second what was accomplished during the time in the role. This is what I want when looking at a player profile. How long have they been playing the game and what level of skill have they displayed during the time span played. Halo 2 never accomplished this, games like reach and COD abandoned skill and only went with experience. Halo 3 accomplished this by having both a true skill 1-50 and an overall exp for winning games. It allowed me to immediately size up players. Maybe they were newer but really skilled, maybe they were very experienced and had a great feel for maps/gameplay, but lacked the skill to make it to general. I know it received criticism b/c of boosters but how often did you actually see a general in matchmaking that wasn't at least above average? 70-80% of the time they were monsters and the other 20-30% they were still very good. Even if the rare booster got by they would immediately get called out in the plethora of custom games our once great halo community played religiously. The amount of custom games I played (and essentially everyone who was a true halo fan) during the halo 3 days easily pushes into the thousands of hours, constantly meeting new people on a daily basis for years. During those days I never viewed boosting or encountered it as a problem during the halo 3 days.

Ultimately, Halo needs a new ranking system that gives players a sense of both skill and experience. I'm not saying bring back Halo 3 but we need something more than just half a job application... experience matters.
I think you are in the wrong area my friend. There are better parts of the forum to post this to.

I do believe that playlists need a skill rank that resets and an exp based rank similar to H3 so that players have something to grind for.

The issue for 1-50 is that it leaves a ceiling that can be reached and makes it hard to distinguish how good a player actually is. That's where the exp system helped somewhat since a more veteran player was probably better. H5's ranking system gives you a really good idea of how good a player is without a exp based system but then it hurts players who want to grind for something.
Sorry I haven't been on waypoint since it first came out years ago. Anyways the rank reset just doesn't work. I said the same thing in my last reply to Z, a rank reset feels equivalent to having your job resume and career achievements taken away, leaving you on par with that fresh new intern. Players won't keep coming back only to get slapped in the face over and over.

1-50 had its flaws, but I enjoy max ranks. Who wants to climb Mt. Everest only to get thrown back down to the bottom. You want to be at the top with the rest of the people who made it and finally sit back and enjoy the view from the peak.
QX wrote:
Below is an old reddit post discussing what we should expect from a ranking system (with a focus on MCC), nevertheless I believe this is the framework 343 needs to return to and build around for Halo 6.

I know people loved Halo 2's ranking system which serves as the current format for ranked playlists. It's a great indicator of skill but it lacks one of the key components needed to understand a challenger you're faced against. The second component I speak of is time.

When you're comparing job applicants for example, you want to know two things about their prior work history. The first being the amount of time spent in the role, and second what was accomplished during the time in the role. This is what I want when looking at a player profile. How long have they been playing the game and what level of skill have they displayed during the time span played. Halo 2 never accomplished this, games like reach and COD abandoned skill and only went with experience. Halo 3 accomplished this by having both a true skill 1-50 and an overall exp for winning games. It allowed me to immediately size up players. Maybe they were newer but really skilled, maybe they were very experienced and had a great feel for maps/gameplay, but lacked the skill to make it to general. I know it received criticism b/c of boosters but how often did you actually see a general in matchmaking that wasn't at least above average? 70-80% of the time they were monsters and the other 20-30% they were still very good. Even if the rare booster got by they would immediately get called out in the plethora of custom games our once great halo community played religiously. The amount of custom games I played (and essentially everyone who was a true halo fan) during the halo 3 days easily pushes into the thousands of hours, constantly meeting new people on a daily basis for years. During those days I never viewed boosting or encountered it as a problem during the halo 3 days.

Ultimately, Halo needs a new ranking system that gives players a sense of both skill and experience. I'm not saying bring back Halo 3 but we need something more than just half a job application... experience matters.
I think you are in the wrong area my friend. There are better parts of the forum to post this to.

I do believe that playlists need a skill rank that resets and an exp based rank similar to H3 so that players have something to grind for.

The issue for 1-50 is that it leaves a ceiling that can be reached and makes it hard to distinguish how good a player actually is. That's where the exp system helped somewhat since a more veteran player was probably better. H5's ranking system gives you a really good idea of how good a player is without a exp based system but then it hurts players who want to grind for something.
Sorry I haven't been on waypoint since it first came out years ago. Anyways the rank reset just doesn't work. I said the same thing in my last reply to Z, a rank reset feels equivalent to having your job resume and career achievements taken away, leaving you on par with that fresh new intern. Players won't keep coming back only to get slapped in the face over and over.

1-50 had its flaws, but I enjoy max ranks. Who wants to climb Mt. Everest only to get thrown back down to the bottom. You want to be at the top with the rest of the people who made it and finally sit back and enjoy the view from the peak.
First off, the player base responds very well to resetting ranks overall. There are small portions used to previous systems without resets who still struggle with it, but the overall result has been increased engagement. There is always a huge statistically significant increase in engagement when ranks reset. It's one of the few data points that has consistently been clearly engaging.

Secondly, we don't reset anyone back to the beginning. We barely reset you at all. We retain your MMR, you play your placement matches, and you end up 100 CSR back from where the new placement matches put you. So if you are a Platinum 3 player, you start Platinum 1. No Mt. Everest, no losing your job, nothing like that at all.

If you were above Diamond 5, then you do start at Diamond 3 instead of just 100 back, but those are players who consistently work their way back up, and they also appreciate not having players re-roll right back into Champ.

So, yes, I empathize with players used to not having their rank reset at all, but it's barely a reset and the net has been overwhelmingly positive.
From a skill point of view reset the csr is worst because the community need at least one month to reestabilish the top 250 and many players became champion during this month
From a skill point of view reset the csr is worst because the community need at least one month to reestabilish the top 250 and many players became champion during this month
Seasons last for at least 3 months, so that's not really an issue. I mean, unless earning your way back to a rank you think you deserve is too much work. Or you believe those players who made Champion this month are likely never to do it again. From a skill point of view, the players who made Champion in the previous seasons will make their way back up to that mark after a reset. There's something to be said for a player's skill if they consistently make it to Onyx/Champion in a playlist.
From a skill point of view reset the csr is worst because the community need at least one month to reestabilish the top 250 and many players became champion during this month
Seasons last for at least 3 months, so that's not really an issue. I mean, unless earning your way back to a rank you think you deserve is too much work. Or you believe those players who made Champion this month are likely never to do it again. From a skill point of view, the players who made Champion in the previous seasons will make their way back up to that mark after a reset. There's something to be said for a player's skill if they consistently make it to Onyx/Champion in a playlist.
It is a big issue because for one month CSR make no sense, a diamond 3 could be:
1 Diamond player (4,5,6)
2 Low or High Onyx player
3 Champion
Then we have a problem of consistency for the champion rank even in the same playlist and it requires less skill to keep the champion for three months than forever
From a skill point of view reset the csr is worst because the community need at least one month to reestabilish the top 250 and many players became champion during this month
Seasons last for at least 3 months, so that's not really an issue. I mean, unless earning your way back to a rank you think you deserve is too much work. Or you believe those players who made Champion this month are likely never to do it again. From a skill point of view, the players who made Champion in the previous seasons will make their way back up to that mark after a reset. There's something to be said for a player's skill if they consistently make it to Onyx/Champion in a playlist.
It is a big issue because for one month CSR make no sense, a diamond 3 could be:
1 Diamond player (4,5,6)
2 Low or High Onyx player
3 Champion
Then we have a problem of consistency for the champion rank even in the same playlist and it requires less skill to keep the champion for three months than forever
The same can be said for any rank depending on the circumstances. But that is irrelevant because the better players will move quickly towards their true ranks while others will stay where they're at or fall back to where they belong. And it won't take an entire month for it to happen unless those players just don't play, in which case, they aren't playing so they're not affecting anything.

You're looking at it the wrong way. The skill doesn't lie in keeping the Champion rank for 3 months or forever (which really is easy to do once you get towards the middle of the Top 200), the skill is in getting back there after each reset, consistently proving that you are, well, a Champion every season.
From a skill point of view reset the csr is worst because the community need at least one month to reestabilish the top 250 and many players became champion during this month
Seasons last for at least 3 months, so that's not really an issue. I mean, unless earning your way back to a rank you think you deserve is too much work. Or you believe those players who made Champion this month are likely never to do it again. From a skill point of view, the players who made Champion in the previous seasons will make their way back up to that mark after a reset. There's something to be said for a player's skill if they consistently make it to Onyx/Champion in a playlist.
It is a big issue because for one month CSR make no sense, a diamond 3 could be:
1 Diamond player (4,5,6)
2 Low or High Onyx player
3 Champion
Then we have a problem of consistency for the champion rank even in the same playlist and it requires less skill to keep the champion for three months than forever
The same can be said for any rank depending on the circumstances. But that is irrelevant because the better players will move quickly towards their true ranks while others will stay where they're at or fall back to where they belong. And it won't take an entire month for it to happen unless those players just don't play, in which case, they aren't playing so they're not affecting anything.

You're looking at it the wrong way. The skill doesn't lie in keeping the Champion rank for 3 months or forever (which really is easy to do once you get towards the middle of the Top 200), the skill is in getting back there after each reset, consistently proving that you are, well, a Champion every season.
Wrong only after one month the top 250 are really the top 250, how do i know this?
It is quite simple if you look at the low champion/high onyx threshold is near 1800 in the most popular playlist and around 1700 in less popular playlist but they reached this usually after a month (for example swat reached his threshold this month).
About the skill for me is very easy to obtain (less than 50 games) and keep my champion (reset + TS2 are my guards and jailers).
In fact my true enemy is myself.
From a skill point of view reset the csr is worst because the community need at least one month to reestabilish the top 250 and many players became champion during this month
Seasons last for at least 3 months, so that's not really an issue. I mean, unless earning your way back to a rank you think you deserve is too much work. Or you believe those players who made Champion this month are likely never to do it again. From a skill point of view, the players who made Champion in the previous seasons will make their way back up to that mark after a reset. There's something to be said for a player's skill if they consistently make it to Onyx/Champion in a playlist.
It is a big issue because for one month CSR make no sense, a diamond 3 could be:
1 Diamond player (4,5,6)
2 Low or High Onyx player
3 Champion
Then we have a problem of consistency for the champion rank even in the same playlist and it requires less skill to keep the champion for three months than forever
The same can be said for any rank depending on the circumstances. But that is irrelevant because the better players will move quickly towards their true ranks while others will stay where they're at or fall back to where they belong. And it won't take an entire month for it to happen unless those players just don't play, in which case, they aren't playing so they're not affecting anything.

You're looking at it the wrong way. The skill doesn't lie in keeping the Champion rank for 3 months or forever (which really is easy to do once you get towards the middle of the Top 200), the skill is in getting back there after each reset, consistently proving that you are, well, a Champion every season.
Wrong only after one month the top 250 are really the top 250, how do i know this?
It is quite simple if you look at the low champion/high onyx threshold is near 1800 in the most popular playlist and around 1700 in less popular playlist but they reached this usually after a month (for example swat reached his threshold this month).
About the skill for me is very easy to obtain (less than 50 games) and keep my champion (reset + TS2 are my guards and jailers).
In fact my true enemy is myself.
You are complaining about a compromised system though. The diamond 3/unranked/champion confusion is exaggerated due to the limited population.

Even then after a month the top 250 are rarely the top 250 unless you see talking about arena because the other playlists have such a lower skill range. So in reality you are going to have the unranked confusion the whole 3 months as you would have it forever if you had no resets.

And considering you get matched based on MMR players will still get the same matches regardless of rank.

I think the benefits of resetting ranks, mainly the noticable boost in player population, is worth way more than the cons.

Additionally if ranks were never reset the Smurf problem would become very noticable again and we would have even more people boosting for high champ ranks such as Aggressive is doing in team arena at the moment.
If experience ranks come back, they need to be military style again. There is nothing exciting about getting a higher level in Halo 5 because all it is is a number. In Halo 3, I was pretty dang excited when I got my first Brigadier General, and I was on my way to getting General eventually but my xbox got the 3 red rings of death.

I guarantee people would be a lot more excited about getting a higher rank in Halo 5 if the Private-General system were in it.
QX wrote:
From a skill point of view reset the csr is worst because the community need at least one month to reestabilish the top 250 and many players became champion during this month
Seasons last for at least 3 months, so that's not really an issue. I mean, unless earning your way back to a rank you think you deserve is too much work. Or you believe those players who made Champion this month are likely never to do it again. From a skill point of view, the players who made Champion in the previous seasons will make their way back up to that mark after a reset. There's something to be said for a player's skill if they consistently make it to Onyx/Champion in a playlist.
It is a big issue because for one month CSR make no sense, a diamond 3 could be:
1 Diamond player (4,5,6)
2 Low or High Onyx player
3 Champion
Then we have a problem of consistency for the champion rank even in the same playlist and it requires less skill to keep the champion for three months than forever
The same can be said for any rank depending on the circumstances. But that is irrelevant because the better players will move quickly towards their true ranks while others will stay where they're at or fall back to where they belong. And it won't take an entire month for it to happen unless those players just don't play, in which case, they aren't playing so they're not affecting anything.

You're looking at it the wrong way. The skill doesn't lie in keeping the Champion rank for 3 months or forever (which really is easy to do once you get towards the middle of the Top 200), the skill is in getting back there after each reset, consistently proving that you are, well, a Champion every season.
Wrong only after one month the top 250 are really the top 250, how do i know this?
It is quite simple if you look at the low champion/high onyx threshold is near 1800 in the most popular playlist and around 1700 in less popular playlist but they reached this usually after a month (for example swat reached his threshold this month).
About the skill for me is very easy to obtain (less than 50 games) and keep my champion (reset + TS2 are my guards and jailers).
In fact my true enemy is myself.
You are complaining about a compromised system though. The diamond 3/unranked/champion confusion is exaggerated due to the limited population.

Even then after a month the top 250 are rarely the top 250 unless you see talking about arena because the other playlists have such a lower skill range. So in reality you are going to have the unranked confusion the whole 3 months as you would have it forever if you had no resets.

And considering you get matched based on MMR players will still get the same matches regardless of rank.

I think the benefits of resetting ranks, mainly the noticable boost in player population, is worth way more than the cons.Additionally if ranks were never reset the Smurf problem would become very noticable again and we would have even more people boosting for high champ ranks such as Aggressive is doing in team arena at the moment.
I was talking about from a skill point of view.
I believe Halo 3 had less smurf account than Halo 5 (Breakout is full of smurf, at some point half of the champions were smurf account) so I don't think the reset helped
LengthiestLiON

Please do not post multiple times in a row. You are always welcome to edit your initial post. Thank you.
QX wrote:
From a skill point of view reset the csr is worst because the community need at least one month to reestabilish the top 250 and many players became champion during this month
Seasons last for at least 3 months, so that's not really an issue. I mean, unless earning your way back to a rank you think you deserve is too much work. Or you believe those players who made Champion this month are likely never to do it again. From a skill point of view, the players who made Champion in the previous seasons will make their way back up to that mark after a reset. There's something to be said for a player's skill if they consistently make it to Onyx/Champion in a playlist.
It is a big issue because for one month CSR make no sense, a diamond 3 could be:
1 Diamond player (4,5,6)
2 Low or High Onyx player
3 Champion
Then we have a problem of consistency for the champion rank even in the same playlist and it requires less skill to keep the champion for three months than forever
The same can be said for any rank depending on the circumstances. But that is irrelevant because the better players will move quickly towards their true ranks while others will stay where they're at or fall back to where they belong. And it won't take an entire month for it to happen unless those players just don't play, in which case, they aren't playing so they're not affecting anything.

You're looking at it the wrong way. The skill doesn't lie in keeping the Champion rank for 3 months or forever (which really is easy to do once you get towards the middle of the Top 200), the skill is in getting back there after each reset, consistently proving that you are, well, a Champion every season.
Wrong only after one month the top 250 are really the top 250, how do i know this?
It is quite simple if you look at the low champion/high onyx threshold is near 1800 in the most popular playlist and around 1700 in less popular playlist but they reached this usually after a month (for example swat reached his threshold this month).
About the skill for me is very easy to obtain (less than 50 games) and keep my champion (reset + TS2 are my guards and jailers).
In fact my true enemy is myself.
You are complaining about a compromised system though. The diamond 3/unranked/champion confusion is exaggerated due to the limited population.

Even then after a month the top 250 are rarely the top 250 unless you see talking about arena because the other playlists have such a lower skill range. So in reality you are going to have the unranked confusion the whole 3 months as you would have it forever if you had no resets.

And considering you get matched based on MMR players will still get the same matches regardless of rank.

I think the benefits of resetting ranks, mainly the noticable boost in player population, is worth way more than the cons.Additionally if ranks were never reset the Smurf problem would become very noticable again and we would have even more people boosting for high champ ranks such as Aggressive is doing in team arena at the moment.
I was talking about from a skill point of view.
I believe Halo 3 had less smurf account than Halo 5 (Breakout is full of smurf, at some point half of the champions were smurf account) so I don't think the reset helped
But in H3 you had to pay for Xbox live per account. For Halo 5 as long as 1 account has gold all accounts will have it. So you can't compare H3 Smurfs to H5.

I also believe from a skill point of view the resets are useful. Monthly resets we're too much but 4 times a year isn't common enough to make them mean nothing.
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