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[Locked] The Halo: CE playlist will be 2v2? What a waste.

OP Big T Mac10

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The real reason I want to play this game online is for Halo: CE multiplayer. True multiplayer, not 2v2 hack jobs. I want the full experience. I understand there may be issues with it online right now and that was the need to pull the dedicated playlist at launch until it gets sorted out. I get that. I can wait. To say that it will arrive but as 2v2 and essentially be useless? No thanks. I find that to be more patronizing than anything.

Essentially this change will ruin the potential of the multiplayer to make it useless. It will arrive as doubles, tons of people will play it once or twice until they realize it maxes out at 2v2 and then never touch it again. Once that happens, you'll say "well we can sit here and try to optimize this game, but nobody plays this playlist so we won't bother," when in fact the only reason people won't play the playlist is because you gimped it to begin with by making it 2v2. And if it is still popular you'll just say "well clearly people like it as 2v2 so we can't change it," even if it is popular despite the fact that it's 2v2 and not because of it.

I'm sure there are some people that prefer 2 on 2 and for them I say have a team doubles playlist with all the games.
agreed, bump
JGC wrote:
agreed, bump
Thanks. This was THE thing I was looking forward to in this title and I'm willing to wait for it, but this news sounds more or less like the death of H:CE 4v4 multiplayer.
The real reason I want to play this game online is for Halo: CE multiplayer. True multiplayer, not 2v2 hack jobs. I want the full experience. I understand there may be issues with it online right now and that was the need to pull the dedicated playlist at launch until it gets sorted out. I get that. I can wait. To say that it will arrive but as 2v2 and essentially be useless? No thanks. I find that to be more patronizing than anything.

Essentially this change will ruin the potential of the multiplayer to make it useless. It will arrive as doubles, tons of people will play it once or twice until they realize it maxes out at 2v2 and then never touch it again. Once that happens, you'll say "well we can sit here and try to optimize this game, but nobody plays this playlist so we won't bother," when in fact the only reason people won't play the playlist is because you gimped it to begin with by making it 2v2. And if it is still popular you'll just say "well clearly people like it as 2v2 so we can't change it," even if it is popular despite the fact that it's 2v2 and not because of it.

I'm sure there are some people that prefer 2 on 2 and for them I say have a team doubles playlist with all the games.
Agreed.

Played BTB on Timberland and my team managed to get all the hogs for use. 4 HOGS and we roamed the map with Halo: CE's great vehicle mechanics. Halo: CE hands down most enjoyable vehicle play and its first person passenger mode. 2v2? CE? Why not a FULL playlist like Halo 3 and 4 have? -Yoink- yoinkers.
But 2v2 is what made Halo CE so fun.
But 2v2 is what made Halo CE so fun.
I agree Halo: CE 2v2 was fun, but in my book it is certainly not what made it fun. I've played full 8v8 games and 10-man FFA and 4v4, 5v4 and 5v5 multiplayer games on Hang 'em High, Prisoner, Chill Out, Wizard and the mid team games were among the most fun aside from BTB Blood Gulch & Sidewinder CTF.

I propose Halo CE 4v4 playlist same as all the rest. There should also be a separate playlist for 2v2 from all games or at least the first three as there were several fans of 2v2 especially in Halo 3.
Why can't 343 just give us both 2v2 & 4v4 as H1 playlists?

I love playing both.
Why can't 343 just give us both 2v2 & 4v4 as H1 playlists?

I love playing both.
If you mean in one playlist with both then they can't reasonably do it because of party size, MM roster, etc. If you mean one of each they could do it, but diluting the population with too many playlists is an issue and the people who want to play 2v2 Halo 3 is probably just as big so you'd have to do the same for them. That's why I suggested the doubles playlist for those first three games. That's a nice balance between satisfying the needs of all while not chopping up the community into a dozen little pieces.
I agree. 2v2 will get rid of a lot of players. We should get HaloFollower to make a video about it to spread the word. #No2v2
But 2v2 is what made Halo CE so fun.
You do know that you could play Halo: CE with up to 16 players right?
The only reason people seem to remember it as 2 v 2 is because people don't like playing split screen, so it usually ended up 4 TV's, 4 consoles and 4 players. It was limited by the hardware and the lack of xbox live at the time, and that's just not the case anymore so they should keep up with the times.
But 2v2 is what made Halo CE so fun.

You do know that you could play Halo: CE with up to 16 players right?
The only reason people seem to remember it as 2 v 2 is because people don't like playing split screen, so it usually ended up 4 TV's, 4 consoles and 4 players. It was limited by the hardware and the lack of xbox live at the time, and that's just not the case anymore so they should keep up with the times.
*DISCLAIMER* I wouldn't want to see either or, but would rather see both 2v2 and 4v4 an option.

There's some truth to this but that isn't the sole reason, but also you have to realize what the developers intended. The developers made a game that was geared towards playing well at a 2v2 level because they figured that the highest majority would be played at a 2v2 or 1v1 level. The xbox supported 4 players at the time so it just made sense. Another huge plus for 2v2 is that the level of gameplay for that involves more nuances than it would at 4v4.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy 4's as well. However the spawn system for 2's creates an incredibly deep meta that really plays differently from any other Halo in the series. I cannot even begin to explain the depth of Halo CE compared to others who dissected it. Basically, all spawns are proximity based meaning that if your teammate is standing in a location, you will always spawn at the closest available spawn point. Often, that results in spawn killing due to there being basically no "weight" on grenades effecting spawns, and players have to be relatively close to you to block your teammates spawn. That said, in competitive 2's players would know where to stand or how to position themselves to prevent getting spawn trapped. When I mean position themselves, I mean they purposely stand over 17.5 meters away from a spawn point, or they stand directly on a single spawn point to block it, thus being far enough from any of the set-spawn points. What this does is give you a "RANDOM" spawn, meaning that 100% of the time if you stand in that location, you will ALWAYS give your teammate a randomized spawn on the map. It's an extremely important factor in playing at a high level considering players will purposely abuse the spawn system in order to rack up kills. The only way to prevent this is to learn the game, play selfless, and play smart. Halo CE already gave you huge incentive not to camp by having weapons on static timers come up on various intervals. However, this system takes it a step further. Your teammate is at the mercy of not only the other team, but the decisions you make. Where you decide to stand can either screw you over, or create a great opening play for your team.

It might not seem like a great system, but go play Wizard 4v4 CTF, a game that would play beautifully in any other game and tell me how much you enjoy that. That incorporates the same spawn system of spawning near your teammate. In a 4v4 setting though, it would be impossible to random your teammate as he will just spawn next to another one of your teammates instead of the game giving him your random spawn.

To each their own though, there are plenty who would read my post and determine wow, that system doesn't seem fair. (of course it's not fair playing someone who does know it) but that's the sad part of the generation of shooters today. Nobody wants to go beyond the surface of the game to learn all the nuances and become really good at it. They simply want to push, set up, and teamshoot.

We received an incredibly great, deep, and skillful game that was actually intended to be competitive. I hope we can see it pushed in a similar light, and if you don't believe the game was supposed to be this deep meaningful game, google Hardy Lebel who designed basically the entire multiplayer.
No support, 2v2 CE is the most competitive, skillful and fair way to play the game. You can play CE in BTB. Essentially, you'd have to argue you want 4v4 instead of 2v2 for this reason, and any CE vet can tell you 2v2 plays a lot better.
Teapot Yo wrote:
But 2v2 is what made Halo CE so fun.


You do know that you could play Halo: CE with up to 16 players right?
The only reason people seem to remember it as 2 v 2 is because people don't like playing split screen, so it usually ended up 4 TV's, 4 consoles and 4 players. It was limited by the hardware and the lack of xbox live at the time, and that's just not the case anymore so they should keep up with the times.

*DISCLAIMER* I wouldn't want to see either or, but would rather see both 2v2 and 4v4 an option.

There's some truth to this but that isn't the sole reason, but also you have to realize what the developers intended. The developers made a game that was geared towards playing well at a 2v2 level because they figured that the highest majority would be played at a 2v2 or 1v1 level. The xbox supported 4 players at the time so it just made sense. Another huge plus for 2v2 is that the level of gameplay for that involves more nuances than it would at 4v4.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy 4's as well. However the spawn system for 2's creates an incredibly deep meta that really plays differently from any other Halo in the series. I cannot even begin to explain the depth of Halo CE compared to others who dissected it. Basically, all spawns are proximity based meaning that if your teammate is standing in a location, you will always spawn at the closest available spawn point. Often, that results in spawn killing due to there being basically no "weight" on grenades effecting spawns, and players have to be relatively close to you to block your teammates spawn. That said, in competitive 2's players would know where to stand or how to position themselves to prevent getting spawn trapped. When I mean position themselves, I mean they purposely stand over 17.5 meters away from a spawn point, or they stand directly on a single spawn point to block it, thus being far enough from any of the set-spawn points. What this does is give you a "RANDOM" spawn, meaning that 100% of the time if you stand in that location, you will ALWAYS give your teammate a randomized spawn on the map. It's an extremely important factor in playing at a high level considering players will purposely abuse the spawn system in order to rack up kills. The only way to prevent this is to learn the game, play selfless, and play smart. Halo CE already gave you huge incentive not to camp by having weapons on static timers come up on various intervals. However, this system takes it a step further. Your teammate is at the mercy of not only the other team, but the decisions you make. Where you decide to stand can either screw you over, or create a great opening play for your team.

It might not seem like a great system, but go play Wizard 4v4 CTF, a game that would play beautifully in any other game and tell me how much you enjoy that. That incorporates the same spawn system of spawning near your teammate. In a 4v4 setting though, it would be impossible to random your teammate as he will just spawn next to another one of your teammates instead of the game giving him your random spawn.

To each their own though, there are plenty who would read my post and determine wow, that system doesn't seem fair. (of course it's not fair playing someone who does know it) but that's the sad part of the generation of shooters today. Nobody wants to go beyond the surface of the game to learn all the nuances and become really good at it. They simply want to push, set up, and teamshoot.

We received an incredibly great, deep, and skillful game that was actually intended to be competitive. I hope we can see it pushed in a similar light, and if you don't believe the game was supposed to be this deep meaningful game, google Hardy Lebel who designed basically the entire multiplayer.
In a nutshell, Walshy can showcase some of this.
Halo CE Spawn Manipulation in 2v2
Teapot Yo wrote:
But 2v2 is what made Halo CE so fun.


You do know that you could play Halo: CE with up to 16 players right?
The only reason people seem to remember it as 2 v 2 is because people don't like playing split screen, so it usually ended up 4 TV's, 4 consoles and 4 players. It was limited by the hardware and the lack of xbox live at the time, and that's just not the case anymore so they should keep up with the times.


*DISCLAIMER* I wouldn't want to see either or, but would rather see both 2v2 and 4v4 an option.

There's some truth to this but that isn't the sole reason, but also you have to realize what the developers intended. The developers made a game that was geared towards playing well at a 2v2 level because they figured that the highest majority would be played at a 2v2 or 1v1 level. The xbox supported 4 players at the time so it just made sense. Another huge plus for 2v2 is that the level of gameplay for that involves more nuances than it would at 4v4.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy 4's as well. However the spawn system for 2's creates an incredibly deep meta that really plays differently from any other Halo in the series. I cannot even begin to explain the depth of Halo CE compared to others who dissected it. Basically, all spawns are proximity based meaning that if your teammate is standing in a location, you will always spawn at the closest available spawn point. Often, that results in spawn killing due to there being basically no "weight" on grenades effecting spawns, and players have to be relatively close to you to block your teammates spawn. That said, in competitive 2's players would know where to stand or how to position themselves to prevent getting spawn trapped. When I mean position themselves, I mean they purposely stand over 17.5 meters away from a spawn point, or they stand directly on a single spawn point to block it, thus being far enough from any of the set-spawn points. What this does is give you a "RANDOM" spawn, meaning that 100% of the time if you stand in that location, you will ALWAYS give your teammate a randomized spawn on the map. It's an extremely important factor in playing at a high level considering players will purposely abuse the spawn system in order to rack up kills. The only way to prevent this is to learn the game, play selfless, and play smart. Halo CE already gave you huge incentive not to camp by having weapons on static timers come up on various intervals. However, this system takes it a step further. Your teammate is at the mercy of not only the other team, but the decisions you make. Where you decide to stand can either screw you over, or create a great opening play for your team.

It might not seem like a great system, but go play Wizard 4v4 CTF, a game that would play beautifully in any other game and tell me how much you enjoy that. That incorporates the same spawn system of spawning near your teammate. In a 4v4 setting though, it would be impossible to random your teammate as he will just spawn next to another one of your teammates instead of the game giving him your random spawn.

To each their own though, there are plenty who would read my post and determine wow, that system doesn't seem fair. (of course it's not fair playing someone who does know it) but that's the sad part of the generation of shooters today. Nobody wants to go beyond the surface of the game to learn all the nuances and become really good at it. They simply want to push, set up, and teamshoot.

We received an incredibly great, deep, and skillful game that was actually intended to be competitive. I hope we can see it pushed in a similar light, and if you don't believe the game was supposed to be this deep meaningful game, google Hardy Lebel who designed basically the entire multiplayer.


In a nutshell, Walshy can showcase some of this.
Halo CE Spawn Manipulation in 2v2
That is an example, and while I'm glad to see pro's coming back and making content, that's barely even what I consider just the tip of the iceberg. That's a forced spawn, and works by blocking a specific spawn point which is on the ground level. The only spawn point left in proximity would be the one up there by blue pistol. You know the sniper on Hang Em? If you stand underneath it against the giant pillar that holds it, you'll random your teammate every time.

Anyone who wants a better understanding of the CE Spawn System I can post a few things. It looks like the MLG boards are down, and while 99% of the great threads are gone, we still have a couple useful ones. I may post later. Here is an example of the spawn zones. Think of them like giant bubbles. There are only two spawn points in walshy's video inside the bubble where he is blocking. http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w156/ceeTheory/hb.jpg

heres another outdated picture that could use a bit of updating. A BIG DEAL OF THE SPAWN SYSTEM INFO GOES TO CHAOSTHEORY and INSIDIOUS

http://i13.tinypic.com/5y2i8fl.jpg

here is the reddit thread that goes over this stuff. http://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/1j4dko/

However, if anyone wants to fully learn the depth of the CE spawn system, the greatest site ever was just created. Everyone should share, feature, learn and love this site thanks to Relyx/Mintograde as well as whoever helped him. It gives you real changing percentage factors on spawn weight in real time and position.

halospawns.com

Again, this stuff is really only applicable in 2v2s where you only have on teammate that can spawn you in a location.

edit: I apparently suck at including links
Thanks for making this thread so much.

I BOUGHT this game.. and I BOUGHT this console for the Halo: CE online experience mostly.. (no lie), and I was quite pleased with having 4 online Halo games to choose from with hours of fun between all game modes/ types/ team sizes.

I got unpleasantly surprised even more than the game being broken online (which will be fixed?) by the limited playlist options.. and basically a total manipulation of the online game experience.

Instead of allowing users to control their own Destiny on this online game, there are really specific criteria in the playlists and a very limited number of playlists that won't allow me to explore the entire halo universe and make me victim to being stuck in the same maps over and over (despite having 100+ multiplayer maps).. in 10 rounds online on this game I played the same stupid Halo 2 map 3x (my least favorite in the Halo series).. I thought I bought the Master Chief collection.. not Halo 2 online.

This is how the playlists should be (for each game separately have all of these playlists):

Halo (1,2,2: anniversary,3,4)

Small team battle (2v2-4v4) : All game modes/ types randomized (king of the hill, CTF, snipers, juggernaut rockets, slayer etc. )
big team battle (5v5-8v8) : """"" ^^^ (same as above)

Small team slayer MLG (2v2-4v4)
big team slayer MLG: (5v5-8v8)

CTF: (3v3 - 6v6)
King of The Hill: (4v4-6v6)
Free For All : (6-12 players)
Teapot Yo wrote:
Teapot Yo wrote:
But 2v2 is what made Halo CE so fun.


You do know that you could play Halo: CE with up to 16 players right?
The only reason people seem to remember it as 2 v 2 is because people don't like playing split screen, so it usually ended up 4 TV's, 4 consoles and 4 players. It was limited by the hardware and the lack of xbox live at the time, and that's just not the case anymore so they should keep up with the times.


*DISCLAIMER* I wouldn't want to see either or, but would rather see both 2v2 and 4v4 an option.

There's some truth to this but that isn't the sole reason, but also you have to realize what the developers intended. The developers made a game that was geared towards playing well at a 2v2 level because they figured that the highest majority would be played at a 2v2 or 1v1 level. The xbox supported 4 players at the time so it just made sense. Another huge plus for 2v2 is that the level of gameplay for that involves more nuances than it would at 4v4.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy 4's as well. However the spawn system for 2's creates an incredibly deep meta that really plays differently from any other Halo in the series. I cannot even begin to explain the depth of Halo CE compared to others who dissected it. Basically, all spawns are proximity based meaning that if your teammate is standing in a location, you will always spawn at the closest available spawn point. Often, that results in spawn killing due to there being basically no "weight" on grenades effecting spawns, and players have to be relatively close to you to block your teammates spawn. That said, in competitive 2's players would know where to stand or how to position themselves to prevent getting spawn trapped. When I mean position themselves, I mean they purposely stand over 17.5 meters away from a spawn point, or they stand directly on a single spawn point to block it, thus being far enough from any of the set-spawn points. What this does is give you a "RANDOM" spawn, meaning that 100% of the time if you stand in that location, you will ALWAYS give your teammate a randomized spawn on the map. It's an extremely important factor in playing at a high level considering players will purposely abuse the spawn system in order to rack up kills. The only way to prevent this is to learn the game, play selfless, and play smart. Halo CE already gave you huge incentive not to camp by having weapons on static timers come up on various intervals. However, this system takes it a step further. Your teammate is at the mercy of not only the other team, but the decisions you make. Where you decide to stand can either screw you over, or create a great opening play for your team.

It might not seem like a great system, but go play Wizard 4v4 CTF, a game that would play beautifully in any other game and tell me how much you enjoy that. That incorporates the same spawn system of spawning near your teammate. In a 4v4 setting though, it would be impossible to random your teammate as he will just spawn next to another one of your teammates instead of the game giving him your random spawn.

To each their own though, there are plenty who would read my post and determine wow, that system doesn't seem fair. (of course it's not fair playing someone who does know it) but that's the sad part of the generation of shooters today. Nobody wants to go beyond the surface of the game to learn all the nuances and become really good at it. They simply want to push, set up, and teamshoot.

We received an incredibly great, deep, and skillful game that was actually intended to be competitive. I hope we can see it pushed in a similar light, and if you don't believe the game was supposed to be this deep meaningful game, google Hardy Lebel who designed basically the entire multiplayer.


In a nutshell, Walshy can showcase some of this.
Halo CE Spawn Manipulation in 2v2

That is an example, and while I'm glad to see pro's coming back and making content, that's barely even what I consider just the tip of the iceberg. That's a forced spawn, and works by blocking a specific spawn point which is on the ground level. The only spawn point left in proximity would be the one up there by blue pistol. You know the sniper on Hang Em? If you stand underneath it against the giant pillar that holds it, you'll random your teammate every time.

Anyone who wants a better understanding of the CE Spawn System I can post a few things. It looks like the MLG boards are down, and while 99% of the great threads are gone, we still have a couple useful ones. I may post later. Here is an example of the spawn zones. Think of them like giant bubbles. There are only two spawn points in walshy's video inside the bubble where he is blocking. http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w156/ceeTheory/hb.jpg

heres another outdated picture that could use a bit of updating. A BIG DEAL OF THE SPAWN SYSTEM INFO GOES TO CHAOSTHEORY and INSIDIOUS

http://i13.tinypic.com/5y2i8fl.jpg

here is the reddit thread that goes over this stuff. http://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/1j4dko/

However, if anyone wants to fully learn the depth of the CE spawn system, the greatest site ever was just created. Everyone should share, feature, learn and love this site thanks to Relyx/Mintograde as well as whoever helped him. It gives you real changing percentage factors on spawn weight in real time and position.

halospawns.com

Again, this stuff is really only applicable in 2v2s where you only have on teammate that can spawn you in a location.

edit: I apparently suck at including links
Let's be honest, understanding the Halo CE spawn system takes a hell of a lot of time and effort. Given that most people play Halo as a pick up game, not too many will look this forward into understanding the micro game that can really be played within a match. That being said there's plenty of more things that can be supported in a 2v2 such as spawn nade placement to get power weapons (Gotta love that Ogre 1 clip). Anywho, 4v4 CE is way too chaotic, fun for -Yoink- around but it lacks the functionality to be played properly. Then again I stem from the competitive side so there's bias in why I think 2v2 is much better. Good info, sorry for the short response.
they wont fix this ^^
If you have some ideas of playlist that they should have or ix there's a link of a thread (poll) that ask the community what they want and the way they want it, here's the link: Matchmaking Playlists suggestions - 343 industries
I completely agree, I was really disappointed to hear that is was only going to be 2v2, like why? Halo: CE is one of the greatest Halo multiplayer and it sure is a hell lot of fun.
Your sentiment is a bit aggressive, but I really agree.

2v2 is for extreme Halo 1 pros only. They've played like this for years, and they don't want their baby changed. While I get that, the vast majority of players will be familiar and want 4v4. Hell, I want 4v4. It's way more fun and crazy. The H1 matches I have gotten in Team Slayer are by far some of my favorites thus far in my MCC experience.

It'd be a complete waste to launch it as a 2v2 list, and I really hope they change their minds on this one.
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