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True Skill is broken

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OP 11/30/2020

JimsSon3756

Marine - Bronze

Hi 343,

I used to be an onyx 1700 and then you updated the matchmaking and now I'm d3.

Please see prior night November 29th games to see evidence that the true skill is broken.

The principle behind a hidden rank has finally been statically broken by last night's games... It literally will derank you from d5 to d2 while going 20-8 against all onyx and champions....

BOOM

answer that 343.

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11/30/2020

DigitizeCarnage

ODST - Bronze

where you loosing? Cause no matter how well you did if you loose you go down.

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OP 11/30/2020

JimsSon3756

Marine - Bronze

DigitizeCarnage wrote:
where you loosing? Cause no matter how well you did if you loose you go down.

I understand your counterpoint but it is in fact the validation of the illogical premise of the true skill system.

The mmo rank or "hidden" rank has designated my 'true skill' as a d3 based upon a large statistical sampling without considering the human element that a gamer could change and get better in a moment like the game clicking or any consideration of other factors than initial assessment of previous stats and... Is quite literally matching me in order to, no matter how good I play, be a d3 based upon the system of true skill.

Thus, I am not competing against other players to achieve getting my rank up but competing, quite frustratingly, against a flawed system.

So... I, as a math oriented educated man, am forced to complain about the design of the true skill system and have done so in order to receive an explanation from 343 on why, and I understand there are reasons, I am literally not able to achieve the rank that I feel I should be at and have historically acquired with ease; or, is my understanding of the true skill system not fully understood bc without getting into too much detail, I find that it is quite flawed and unaccurate.

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11/30/2020

DigitizeCarnage

ODST - Bronze

i mean loosing has always brought you rank down and winning has raised your rank in all Halos. Not only in Halos in most popular fps with a multiplayer component. Maybe your issue isnt with true skill but with the whole FPS genre ranking system.

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OP 11/30/2020

JimsSon3756

Marine - Bronze

DigitizeCarnage wrote:
i mean loosing has always brought you rank down and winning has raised your rank in all Halos. Not only in Halos in most popular fps with a multiplayer component. Maybe your issue isnt with true skill but with the whole FPS genre ranking system.

No, in h2 I was able to achieve highest ranking with the exception of prevalent mod cheaters. In reach, I was able to achieve top 5% onyx soloquing.

And other games, like pubg (that I am truly not a good fit for) received a rank that I felt was accurate and appropriate.

If I felt that I was a d3, I would be happy with the d3 and, as a d3, accept getting smashed by onyx 1800s. However, when I am smashing onyx teams as a d3... I think that no matter how you look at it, you can see it seems to fall outside the standard deviation of the norm from a statistical perspective.

Please excuse the math terms.

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11/30/2020

DigitizeCarnage

ODST - Bronze

really i remember playing Halo 2 and no matter how well i performed if i lost enough games i would rank down thats why modding and boosting was done at the high levels. i understand what you are saying. what im saying is that no matter what you think your true skill is or not, your rank is not only dependant on the math but also your win/loss score.

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OP 11/30/2020

JimsSon3756

Marine - Bronze

DigitizeCarnage wrote:
really i remember playing Halo 2 and no matter how well i performed if i lost enough games i would rank down thats why modding and boosting was done at the high levels. i understand what you are saying. what im saying is that no matter what you think your true skill is or not, your rank is not only dependant on the math but also your win/loss score.

I understand that you are stating that you have to win... To rank up and it is a valid statement, but think of this -
1) if you have a hidden rank and so does everyone
2) if you are above your 'true skill' rank
3) the objective is to get your hidden rank to match your face value rank

Conclusion : if the one through three are true, will not the system lump a group of four together that have higher face value ranks than hidden ranks (mmo) ranks and quite literally systematically and situational derank the players...

If so, is this the attribution to the problem that I found myself in last night, where three teammates consistently underperformed.

Or, as I am willing to accept, I don't understand the mmo rankings as I should.

However, if the former is true, then my complaint is valid and the ranking system is broken and needs to remove the premise of the hidden mmo rank.

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11/30/2020

Pheinted

Marine - Gold

When was the last time you had a high onyx rank? As far as I know, you can no longer place high after the 10 placement matches. So theoretically, a daimond 3 at the start of a season could actually be a champ tier player at his 11th match. Its kind of an artificial grind somewhat.

The old ranking at the start of this game was actually broken in terms of where you place, and having a LITERAL rank lock. Some people ranked onyx and after 20 losses or even more would never drop to daimond. So they revised it.

The system looks at
-who you play against. If they're ranked higher, you gain more if you win, if they're ranked lower you lose more if you lose, and a part of your progress also comes from how many kills you get. Basically if you keep overperforming when the system calculated you should either lose the match or have it close, you'll move up very fast. Then there are times the system very well calculated you would lose. You will notice hardly any derank progress.

You won't jump from daimond 3 to champ or onyx just for beating those higher ranked players 1 time. You have to consistently beat higher tier players...and this will be shown by your win percentage. When you see people with well over 50%, you know they're consistently winning much more matches then they are losing. For many of us, it's very difficult to get past the 48-50% range and keep on consistently winning unless we're actually far more skilled than the system rates us.

I've played higher rated players and have won some matches. I've gone up, but can't stay consistently winning. So sometimes I get close to onyx in slayer for example, but a few bad matches can net SO much derank progress.

The longer the season has been in play, the higher the csr needed to get into certain champ level I believe as well. The system is not perfect, and the population only severely impacts those imperfections. If the game was higher populated, the MM would be much more consistent, and we would all have fairer matches.

The old ranking systems in the other halo games had some imperfections as well. A bad player can be carried by wins I believe, but in halo 5 that player won't budge if they're basically just dead weight on the team despite consistently winning.

Also...the daimond 3 rank in halo 5 is equivalent to a 50 in the older titles. The ranking discussion came up in the halo infinite threads and a monitor/mod came and chimed in to say that. In the old ranking system of the old game...the numeric value stayed at 50, but some players skill exceeded 50. In halo 5, this system of onyx and champ exists to display what is beyond level 50.

Good luck man. I love playing this game. The ranking system discourages me from wanting to play sometimes...but at the end of the day...playing halo with some homies is more important than worrying about moving up or down in the ranking system within a game with a low population amongst other problems.

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11/30/2020

DigitizeCarnage

ODST - Bronze

Not only that you can also attribute what seems like a "broken" system to a low population.

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OP 11/30/2020

JimsSon3756

Marine - Bronze

DigitizeCarnage wrote:
Not only that you can also attribute what seems like a "broken" system to a low population.

Yall make sense.

Tks.

Moderator please close thread.

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11/30/2020

IGRS

Marine - Bronze

JimsSon3756 wrote:
DigitizeCarnage wrote:
i mean loosing has always brought you rank down and winning has raised your rank in all Halos. Not only in Halos in most popular fps with a multiplayer component. Maybe your issue isnt with true skill but with the whole FPS genre ranking system.
No, in h2 I was able to achieve highest ranking with the exception of prevalent mod cheaters. In reach, I was able to achieve top 5% onyx soloquing.

And other games, like pubg (that I am truly not a good fit for) received a rank that I felt was accurate and appropriate.

If I felt that I was a d3, I would be happy with the d3 and, as a d3, accept getting smashed by onyx 1800s. However, when I am smashing onyx teams as a d3... I think that no matter how you look at it, you can see it seems to fall outside the standard deviation of the norm from a statistical perspective.

Please excuse the math terms.

I’m not seeing that you’re smashing onyx teams..if you were you would consistently crush diamond teams and your recent games show mixed results. A lot of it is perception — happens to all of us. We remember the games where we get 20 kills versus a stacked team but easily forgot all the performances that are more average.

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OP 11/30/2020

JimsSon3756

Marine - Bronze

IGRS wrote:
JimsSon3756 wrote:
DigitizeCarnage wrote:
i mean loosing has always brought you rank down and winning has raised your rank in all Halos. Not only in Halos in most popular fps with a multiplayer component. Maybe your issue isnt with true skill but with the whole FPS genre ranking system.
No, in h2 I was able to achieve highest ranking with the exception of prevalent mod cheaters. In reach, I was able to achieve top 5% onyx soloquing.

And other games, like pubg (that I am truly not a good fit for) received a rank that I felt was accurate and appropriate.

If I felt that I was a d3, I would be happy with the d3 and, as a d3, accept getting smashed by onyx 1800s. However, when I am smashing onyx teams as a d3... I think that no matter how you look at it, you can see it seems to fall outside the standard deviation of the norm from a statistical perspective.

Please excuse the math terms.
I’m not seeing that you’re smashing onyx teams..if you were you would consistently crush diamond teams and your recent games show mixed results. A lot of it is perception — happens to all of us. We remember the games where we get 20 kills versus a stacked team but easily forgot all the performances that are more average.

It was last night... Today I'm just chilling

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11/30/2020

LUKEPOWA

Spartan - Onyx

JimsSon3756 wrote:
answer that 343.

If you want possible answers from 343, post the games in question in this thread.

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11/30/2020

IGRS

Marine - Bronze

JimsSon3756 wrote:
IGRS wrote:
JimsSon3756 wrote:
DigitizeCarnage wrote:
i mean loosing has always brought you rank down and winning has raised your rank in all Halos. Not only in Halos in most popular fps with a multiplayer component. Maybe your issue isnt with true skill but with the whole FPS genre ranking system.
No, in h2 I was able to achieve highest ranking with the exception of prevalent mod cheaters. In reach, I was able to achieve top 5% onyx soloquing.

And other games, like pubg (that I am truly not a good fit for) received a rank that I felt was accurate and appropriate.

If I felt that I was a d3, I would be happy with the d3 and, as a d3, accept getting smashed by onyx 1800s. However, when I am smashing onyx teams as a d3... I think that no matter how you look at it, you can see it seems to fall outside the standard deviation of the norm from a statistical perspective.

Please excuse the math terms.
I’m not seeing that you’re smashing onyx teams..if you were you would consistently crush diamond teams and your recent games show mixed results. A lot of it is perception — happens to all of us. We remember the games where we get 20 kills versus a stacked team but easily forgot all the performances that are more average.
It was last night... Today I'm just chilling

If you mean sometimes you play harder / smarter than other times..that’s what’s holding your rank bank. MMR is looking at all your games and the way your skill is trending.

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OP 12/2/2020

JimsSon3756

Marine - Bronze

IGRS wrote:
JimsSon3756 wrote:
IGRS wrote:
JimsSon3756 wrote:
DigitizeCarnage wrote:
i mean loosing has always brought you rank down and winning has raised your rank in all Halos. Not only in Halos in most popular fps with a multiplayer component. Maybe your issue isnt with true skill but with the whole FPS genre ranking system.
No, in h2 I was able to achieve highest ranking with the exception of prevalent mod cheaters. In reach, I was able to achieve top 5% onyx soloquing.

And other games, like pubg (that I am truly not a good fit for) received a rank that I felt was accurate and appropriate.

If I felt that I was a d3, I would be happy with the d3 and, as a d3, accept getting smashed by onyx 1800s. However, when I am smashing onyx teams as a d3... I think that no matter how you look at it, you can see it seems to fall outside the standard deviation of the norm from a statistical perspective.

Please excuse the math terms.
I’m not seeing that you’re smashing onyx teams..if you were you would consistently crush diamond teams and your recent games show mixed results. A lot of it is perception — happens to all of us. We remember the games where we get 20 kills versus a stacked team but easily forgot all the performances that are more average.
It was last night... Today I'm just chilling
If you mean sometimes you play harder / smarter than other times..that’s what’s holding your rank bank. MMR is looking at all your games and the way your skill is trending.

Yeah, I get it.... Next season I will try to be more focused on all my games.

It's important that I represent the underground appropriately and show these Champs they just kids

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1/13/2021

Sparticus86

Marine - Iron

Could always try to revitalize H5. I stepped away from the game 6 months after launch for other games and realized I should have stayed.

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1/18/2021

MaxXimus K573

Marine - Iron

JimsSon3756 wrote:
Hi 343,

I used to be an onyx 1700 and then you updated the matchmaking and now I'm d3.

Please see prior night November 29th games to see evidence that the true skill is broken.

The principle behind a hidden rank has finally been statically broken by last night's games... It literally will derank you from d5 to d2 while going 20-8 against all onyx and champions....

BOOM

answer that 343.

people including me have been mentioning this for a long time now, the only explainable solution is that in hidden rank, you are considered to be god, so losing to anyone will punish harshly and winning will reward slivers. I have had this happen too.

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1/18/2021

SMOKY DREAMSS

Recruit - Bronze

MaxXimus K573 wrote:
JimsSon3756 wrote:
Hi 343,

I used to be an onyx 1700 and then you updated the matchmaking and now I'm d3.

Please see prior night November 29th games to see evidence that the true skill is broken.

The principle behind a hidden rank has finally been statically broken by last night's games... It literally will derank you from d5 to d2 while going 20-8 against all onyx and champions....

BOOM

answer that 343.
people including me have been mentioning this for a long time now, the only explainable solution is that in hidden rank, you are considered to be god, so losing to anyone will punish harshly and winning will reward slivers. I have had this happen too.

I completely agree, nothing like winning 10 games against onyx and champs for barely 10csr while carrying plat and diamonds to lose one game because your 4th quits or is afk or it's a stacked team of champs against you and 3 plats so I lose 30csr. The newest ranking system is not rewarding enough. Halo 4s ranking had it the best or at minimum set halo 5 to where if you are running two or less in ranked you cant match 3 or 4 man teams. Along with this you have kids getting champ or onyx and then making a free tag to go and play to purposely de rank people standing afk or griefing teammates its bad, how can a fresh tag jump right into ranked???? No other game allows that right now because they know kids are smurfing and ruining the game for everyone. You should be a level 15 or 20 before you can even play ranked in my opinion. Help your community man h5 is dying because no one is listening to the people playing every day!

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1/18/2021

MaxXimus K573

Marine - Iron

SMOKY DREAMSS wrote:
MaxXimus K573 wrote:
JimsSon3756 wrote:
Hi 343,

I used to be an onyx 1700 and then you updated the matchmaking and now I'm d3.

Please see prior night November 29th games to see evidence that the true skill is broken.

The principle behind a hidden rank has finally been statically broken by last night's games... It literally will derank you from d5 to d2 while going 20-8 against all onyx and champions....

BOOM

answer that 343.
people including me have been mentioning this for a long time now, the only explainable solution is that in hidden rank, you are considered to be god, so losing to anyone will punish harshly and winning will reward slivers. I have had this happen too.
I completely agree, nothing like winning 10 games against onyx and champs for barely 10csr while carrying plat and diamonds to lose one game because your 4th quits or is afk or it's a stacked team of champs against you and 3 plats so I lose 30csr. The newest ranking system is not rewarding enough. Halo 4s ranking had it the best or at minimum set halo 5 to where if you are running two or less in ranked you cant match 3 or 4 man teams. Along with this you have kids getting champ or onyx and then making a free tag to go and play to purposely de rank people standing afk or griefing teammates its bad, how can a fresh tag jump right into ranked???? No other game allows that right now because they know kids are smurfing and ruining the game for everyone. You should be a level 15 or 20 before you can even play ranked in my opinion. Help your community man h5 is dying because no one is listening to the people playing every day!

I felt this so hard T_T'
Idk if i still have the pic, but there was a champ i played against with 100ish gamer score and less than level 30, playing with a bronze. It almost seems like smurfing is encouraged with how little action there is against it. Last I heard from less than reputable individuals, it is "too keep the population" which doesn't make sense as those are the same people who drove a lot away in the first place

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1/21/2021

Terran Envoy

Marine - Iron

Skill is overrated when lag is present

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