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OP MM Systems Team

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With the extreme Aim Assist + Magnetism + Hitscan, the 4sk BR doesn't take any skill to use. It's so easy a caveman can do it. It kills so fast that the encounters are decided not by strafing or player skill, but simply by getting the drop on people. THIS is the weapon that makes Halo 4 like CoD.
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With the extreme Aim Assist + Magnetism + Hitscan, the 4sk BR doesn't take any skill to use. It's so easy a caveman can do it. It kills so fast that the encounters are decided not by strafing or player skill, but simply by getting the drop on people. THIS is the weapon that makes Halo 4 like CoD.
Well, ALL weapons in Halo 4 need a decrease in Aim Assist and Bullet magnetism, so it's not just the BR's problem. Look at the Beam Rifle, for instance.
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Well, ALL weapons in Halo 4 need a decrease in Aim Assist and Bullet magnetism, so it's not just the BR's problem. Look at the Beam Rifle, for instance.
I agree with this statement.

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The BR has the shortest RRR besides the carbine making it a far more skill dependent weapon to use at range compared to the DMR or LR. At close range you have to get a 4 shot or some AR sprayer will kill you by holding down the trigger in your general direction.

If the BR is so easy to use, why aren't you a 50? You should be rolling over everyone and winning games like crazy if it's such a no-skill easy-mode weapon. But it's not, so you aren't.
The RRR extends fully through mid range, which is pretty much the standard engagement range on every map - even most of the ones in BTB. the RRR argument doesn't hold much weight because it's not uncommon to be in range of the enemy. At closer ranges, you should be losing to the close range weapon (if all shots hit) - namely the AR.

As far as not being a 50, I'm not sure how that matters. I simply don't play matchmaking much - barely touched it in months. I play more custom games and forge maps.
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The RRR extends fully through mid range, which is pretty much the standard engagement range on every map - even most of the ones in BTB. the RRR argument doesn't hold much weight because it's not uncommon to be in range of the enemy. At closer ranges, you should be losing to the close range weapon (if all shots hit) - namely the AR.

As far as not being a 50, I'm not sure how that matters. I simply don't play matchmaking much - barely touched it in months. I play more custom games and forge maps.
Mid range is what the weapon is intended for so of course BR RRR applies there. But the DMR's RRR extends WAYYYYYYY beyond mid range putting it on par with the sniper yet that gun doesn't bother you.

Under no circumstances whatsoever should an AR beat a BR 4 shot. Automatics are weapons for the lazy. A precision weapon should always win. Especially the BR since the range overlaps with the AR at all but melee range except the BR requires headshots to kill while the AR is just holding down the trigger. Otherwise you end up with the H3 AR which was broken as hell and the developers knew that which is why the AR will never again be that strong.

As for the 50 part, I'm pointing out that if you're going to claim that the BR is super OP and super easy to use then everyone in the game should be able to easily get a 50 and destroy everyone with it. Yet that isn't remotely close to the case. And if all you play are custom games and virtually no MM how would you even be able to claim something is OP in MM when you don't play it?
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Mid range is what the weapon is intended for so of course BR RRR applies there. But the DMR's RRR extends WAYYYYYYY beyond mid range putting it on par with the sniper yet that gun doesn't bother you.

Under no circumstances whatsoever should an AR beat a BR 4 shot. Automatics are weapons for the lazy. A precision weapon should always win. Especially the BR since the range overlaps with the AR at all but melee range except the BR requires headshots to kill while the AR is just holding down the trigger. Otherwise you end up with the H3 AR which was broken as hell and the developers knew that which is why the AR will never again be that strong.

As for the 50 part, I'm pointing out that if you're going to claim that the BR is super OP and super easy to use then everyone in the game should be able to easily get a 50 and destroy everyone with it. Yet that isn't remotely close to the case. And if all you play are custom games and virtually no MM how would you even be able to claim something is OP in MM when you don't play it?
I'm saying every weapon in this game is extremely easy to use, and the BR has the most situational advantage per map of all the weapons in the sandbox, also combining ease of use with one of the fastest killtimes. The current weapon balance settings make pretty much all the guns require little skill to utilize, there's hardly a measure of skillgap between any of them. The biggest player gap in Halo 4 is based on host connection. If you can't see how the BR has become the go-to OP loadout weapon, you haven't been playing since the turbo update.

The argument about the AR bring lazy is ludicrous. A good AR player needs to maneuver extremely well or be very skilled at stalking enemy players to get within any range where an advantage is conferred. If the assault weapons had no advantage in their respective ranges, there would be absolutely no point in including them in the weapons selections. You'd only ever need one type of weapon to play the game, making the gameplay formula excessively boring.

There are plenty of playlists where it is easy to get a 50, anyone who has played the old games will tell you that winning matches to get up to a 50 in Halo 4 CSR is super easy compared to in Halo 2 or 3. The difference is in the gameplay, everything has been made easier and more noobie-friendly, including the beloved precision weapons. I've played enough Halo 4 to have heard and observed these things hundreds of times. Just because I don't "have a 50" mean I lack experience with the game. All it means is I haven't devoted my time to trying to inflate an artificial number on a website as some form of self-validation.
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... you're going to claim that making the BR a 4 shot (same as it was in H2/H3) suddenly turns it into an OP noob friendly weapon. By that logic the BR was the noob weapon (while you complain about the AR being too weak no less lol) in those games as well but we all know better than to entertain that idea.

You're right that every weapon has too much aim assist in this game. But that's not a BR exclusive problem, that's a Halo 4 problem. The BR due to being the lowest RRR headshot weapon is least guilty of the precision weapons though (roughly tied with the carbine).
Making the BR 4sk alone isn't enough to overpower it - leaving it at it's current RoF with the insane amount of magnetism and aim assist it possesses did that. BR in Halo 2 and 3 required far more skill to use, bottom line... Halo 4's BR doesn't even come close to requiring the same amount of skill.

As far as the AR, I don't believe it's currently weak. It handles pretty well for what it is supposed to be, it's had a great deal of it's ridiculous Aim Assist removed. It too could use less magnetism however, like most of the sandbox.

There are a lot of people that have been trying to defend the currently OP BR since the turbo update, they try to justify why their favorite weapon deserves to outperform everything else in the sandbox. This idea has been linked to precision weapons for a while now. A lot of players use the "utility" argument, which ignores the fact that Halo 4 isn't an arena shooter, it's a hybrid, and that a utility weapon makes weapon selection a moot feature.

Bottom line is Halo 4's sandbox requires so little skill to master that the skill gap was destroyed, helped along by other game mechanics. Saying the BR is the highest skilled weapon is rather laughable when it's got these huge training wheels hanging off the sides. A lot of people are too blinded by nostalgia to see that the BR they currently wield is a mockery of the old. Right now it kills so fast that strafing doesn't even matter, 1v1's are simply decided by who shoots first.

Anyway, I'm done here. My point was made long ago, and has been backed up over time by many players. All the veteran players that left Halo 4 can attest to how very little skill gap there is in this game.

A little advice: In the future, might try to spend more time on the actual debate, and less on a futile effort to denigrate the opposition.
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It was nerfed by the absolute slightest, most undetectable amount ever.

It needs further nerfing. The weapon kills way too damn quickly for a precision weapon and completely snuffs out any chance of closing the distance with an automatic weapon.
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It was nerfed by the absolute slightest, most undetectable amount ever.

It needs further nerfing. The weapon kills way too damn quickly for a precision weapon and completely snuffs out any chance of closing the distance with an automatic weapon.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3738/8969600798_108f9a03da_o.png

Oh look, automatics lead the chart on kill times. Learn to use them properly. You aren't supposed to engage a precision weapon at medium range with an automatic, if you do then you deserve to die.

You're literally crying about 0.03 seconds. THREE HUNDREDTHS OF A SECOND. Doesn't that make you sound foolish? In a MM environment with imperfections, you're crying about a kill time difference that is so minuscule that it truly is "the absolute slightest, most undetectable amount ever". And yet you can claim this is game-breaking? Lol.

Hell the magnum kills faster, should we nerf that too? And the carbine? Since it's tied with the BR?

No, you just don't like the gun so you want it nerfed because other people kill you with it. Hardly good reasons.
At this point it should be noted that the H3AR does not kill quicker than an H3BR if the H3BR lands all shots and the last is to the head.
Seen here.

The Reach DMR is very similar to the H3BR in that said HRDMR kills quicker in headshots than the AR will.
Seen here.

It's B-E-A-UUUUUtiful that automatics work within the sandbox as they do in H4.
Automatics kill quicker IF all bullets hit and the only way to do that is to decrease the distance to target greatly.
All loadout auto's kill in the same number of bullets but it's their projectile speed and bloom spread that create a variation in effective ranges.
I hardly use autos but I am very glad to know that killing an auto user requires more situational confrontation than simply ensuring my 4 BR/5 DMR shots land...

Now if we could fix that same feeling against the unscoped LR. It doesn't need to be THAT mushy when the BR and Carbine are not flimsy at long range (not extreme, just regular) thanks to the damage increase on the BR and both the maximum spread reduction plus damage increase on the Carbine.
I'd like at the very least to see the DpH match the old H4BR so that 4-shots down shields rather than having the 5th shot work like the H4BR's 4th shot. It's not much in direct 1vs1's, but in the grand scheme of all that damage happening it's enough that a little bit of damage means a sharper 4-shot kill up to the edge of red reticle range is more consistent.
Going so far as to have the potential unassisted/non-force multiplier kill occur at about 1.6-1.65. Of course I'd love a shorter TTK but I'd like something that is still within its intended niche but not there because it's mushy.

On the flip-side... Making the scoped LR a 3-shot killer to the body instead of 2 is also a consistent request :) A slight decrease in scoped speed so that it kills in 4-shots, the 4th to the head, at about 1.35 to 1.4 would be nice.
The marksman-power of the scoped LR should not be determined by time to kill alone... Sorta like its unscoped time to kill should not necessitate force multipliers as much as it does.
There is a rock-paper-scissor distinction with all things considered equal between the Carbine+BR vs the DMR vs the LR in how and where to use them, however it's too distinct IMO. The unscoped LR loosing to the DMR just slightly instead of what feels like consistently outright is preferable.

I like my weapon classes to be distinct but the weapons in each class to not vary too much in potential kill times if both enemies are in range to ensure 100% hitting... Unless it's those secondaries. Due to having to swap out for those weapons, and that they're usually thrown away first for a power or heavyweapon, I go with secondaries being exotically different as they are now.

Just perhaps either a slight buff to health damage on the PP and/or an increase on overheat levels so that the weapon can be more effective on it's own if learned how work the overheat, instead of being at the mercy of it at the moment.
Oh and the Boltshot's charged shot's power to be determined by the amount of ammo left. Something like 1-2 charges requires a headshot at short range to kill, 3-4 shots requires greater accuracy on target and/or has more spread than a 5-shot charge. With a full 5 charges the BS will kill as it does now. Something to limit but not remove its current function. (It's far from a room clearer like the FRG is.)

PS: The LR should reload the longest, the Carbine the shortest. Not vary too much but the Carbine is meant for shorter-ranged engagements, at least it's meant to be "spammed" in shorter ranges. In short range, combat is quicker, reloading should be quicker.
The LR is meant to be long range, even with my intended changes to it. Because of that it should take longer to reload because cover and distance are great friends. Players at longer ranges, by nature of their position, do have more time to execute more actions.

The BR should reload slightly longer than the DMR but still quicker than the LR. The BR can kill more enemies per shot landed, has a greater effectual spectrum than any other precision loadout weapon, can damage vehicles much greater than the other precisions AND has the advantage of swipe-shooting up to even long range.
Yes the BR has shorter potential range than the DMR, so one might thing it should follow suit with the Carbine, however the damage the BR can do over many ranges compared to the other weapons, its reload should be slower than "weaker" DMR.
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It was nerfed by the absolute slightest, most undetectable amount ever.

It needs further nerfing. The weapon kills way too damn quickly for a precision weapon and completely snuffs out any chance of closing the distance with an automatic weapon.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3738/8969600798_108f9a03da_o.png

Oh look, automatics lead the chart on kill times. Learn to use them properly. You aren't supposed to engage a precision weapon at medium range with an automatic, if you do then you deserve to die.

You're literally crying about 0.03 seconds. THREE HUNDREDTHS OF A SECOND. Doesn't that make you sound foolish? In a MM environment with imperfections, you're crying about a kill time difference that is so minuscule that it truly is "the absolute slightest, most undetectable amount ever". And yet you can claim this is game-breaking? Lol.

Hell the magnum kills faster, should we nerf that too? And the carbine? Since it's tied with the BR?

No, you just don't like the gun so you want it nerfed because other people kill you with it. Hardly good reasons.
Statistics like these mean nothing compared to how they actually work out in gameplay.

No, I'm not talking about engaging a precision weapon at mid-range, I'm talking about the fact that it is nearly impossible to even get into close range in the first place when everyone has a BR. It negates the very reason for deciding to spawn with an automatic weapon. Why limit yourself with a weapon that requires you to go completely unnoticed before you engage your enemy when you can spawn with a weapon that can engage any enemy from essentially any range (on a 4v4 sized map)? However, this is just an age-old complaint of mine for precision weapon availability in general, not just the updated Halo 4 BR.

You were saying how it was balanced by its rate of fire being reduced, I simply stated that its RoF reduction was barely anything compared to its damage buff. Its kill time is now just slightly slower than an automatic weapon. And that's if every single shot hits. Idk about you, but it's a LOT harder to make every single shot hit when your weapon's accuracy is crap. Not only all of this, but the weapon is simply easier to use now than it has ever been. Its aim-assist is much higher than in past Halo games (while the aim-assists of automatic weapons are at their lowest in all of the Halo games), and its damage is actually the highest of all Halo games with 11 STK. This means that getting a 4-shot no longer actually requires every individual bullet hits in the last burst.

All in all, there's a tell-tale sign in every video game that tells you if something is overpowered: if everyone is using it. The BR now has far more users than the DMR ever had.
I just want to say thanks to 343i! Even though a lot of players, and they might be right, that H4 had a slow start in terms of weapons balancing along with other things, It gives me hope to see you make changes to what the community is wanting. For example, the 4sk BR, 2 shot beat down and Ar fix have kept me coming back to play. Thank you 343i. As long as you keep trying to involve pro's and community members to help the progression, then I'll stay forever!
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I just want to say thanks to 343i! Even though a lot of players, and they might be right, that H4 had a slow start in terms of weapons balancing along with other things, It gives me hope to see you make changes to what the community is wanting. For example, the 4sk BR, 2 shot beat down and Ar fix have kept me coming back to play. Thank you 343i. As long as you keep trying to involve pro's and community members to help the progression, then I'll stay forever!
Digging the positive feedback :)
I'm surprised no ones mentioned anything about the fact that bullet collision seems to be broken in dynamically lagged states. More specifically there's a lag sweet spot where a players model will be mostly smooth yet hits won't register.

I've seen this issue with all the common weapons. Its most noticeable with the Needler. Most of the time, when battling a person who's in this sweet spot needle's won't home when the reticule is red. I've also noticed that the needles still cause an explosion on ghosted models even if the model updates have the person behind a cover. There have been several times where I took cover after seeing the first needle flying towards me and exploded behind cover before any needle actually hit me.

This sweet spot applies to grenade damage as well as any form of weapon to a greater or lesser degree.

Needler
Needles don't home, Needle Explosion hits target when async regardless of position.

Sniper Rifle / Beam Rifle
Head Shots register as body shots or don't register

Assault Rifle / SAW (Person vs Sweet Spot)
Close Range AR vs BR, BR will win, hits don't register
SAW vs AR, AR wins, saw hits don't register

Battle Rifle / DMR / Light Rifle
Hits don't register

Grenades
Radius hits don't register, most often following a lift or mancannon but I've seen instances of this when people rush around corners and a preemptive grenade was thrown.

Over-shield
Doesn't drop properly drop during ASYNC (every other hit isnt registered when model is up.
343, I really don't want to sound mean, but are you guys just incompetent at testing the sandbox or did you guys actually intend for the DMR and later the BR to be overpowered utility weapons?

The weapon TU completely screwed the sandbox. It was nearly PERFECT, but all that needed to be done was nerf the DMR a little bit (and nerf the Boltshot, but that was prior to the TU). Instead you guys flipped the entire sandbox on its head. For what? To trade one domineering utility weapon for another.

It almost seems like people at your studio are playing favorites with the weapons, corrupting the sandbox.

/end rant
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With the extreme Aim Assist + Magnetism + Hitscan, the 4sk BR doesn't take any skill to use. It's so easy a caveman can do it. It kills so fast that the encounters are decided not by strafing or player skill, but simply by getting the drop on people. THIS is the weapon that makes Halo 4 like CoD.
I wouldn't go that far.
Why is the BoltShot still a spawnable gun - its a 1sk gun and its range is much to far for a none map pick up.
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Why is the BoltShot still a spawnable gun - its a 1sk gun and its range is much to far for a none map pick up.
COmpeltely agreed. I think in 5 it should be all UNSC for loadouts, personally.
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