Forums / Games / Halo 5: Guardians

[Locked] 343, You Can't Cater to Both Types of Fans

OP H BIRYANI

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Well that's quite the clickbait title followed by a wall.

Okay, well let's take a look and..... oh wow lots of stuff in here. I don't even know where to begin.... hmm..... I guess top to bottom is the natural way...

  1. I'm not even going to bother with your BS idea of what a veteran Halo player should be decided by. Hmmm... I started playing with Halo 2 in 2004. I'm a veteran. OP is talking for me, acting like he knows how my brain works and what my thoughts are. Even though they are wrong. Halo 5 plays closer to Halo 3 than Reach and 4 wish they ever could and is probably one of the best Arena shooters to come out in recent years, what 343i was aiming for. If I wasn't so tired I'd argue with you more about this, but I'm about ready to use my keyboard as a pillow.
  2. Some of those "People who act like they know Halo but only played 5" are on eSports teams. Pretty sure they know Halo. And just because someone started with Reach doesn't mean they couldn't go back and play 3, ODST, Wars, CE, or 2. Three of those can be played on the 360. CE's campaign is on 360. CE & 2 are on PC and still have active communities. There's plenty of veterans on Waypoint, I don't know what Waypoint you visit but it's clearly not this one. So because one guy made a point and someone made a good counterpoint there's more of one type of player than there is another? Okay? Um, okay?
  3. lol at saying the old Halo games played slow because they were released in 2001-2007. CoD came out in that same time, fast as hell. Doom and Quake pre-dated them by more than half a decade, two of the fasted games you can ask for. I don't know where you got the idea that people call the graphics ugly, everyone knows what years the games released. People want more customization as the games grow, why would they complain about that? Again, I think you and everyone else visits different Waypoints.

    I'm too tired to go in-depth with this.
Long story made short, you're wrong. So very very wrong. In so many ways.
My thoughts exactly.
2 groups isn't enough. Some vets like halo 5 and others don't while some of the newer guys don't like halo 5 while others do. Also, why should 343 cater to veterans, of more and more leave everyday? You want everything to be like it was in halo 3, but you said it yourself, a lot of veterans left. So right now, the majority of the community is people who like halo 5. I still think we should have a few classic playlists, but going full out on one side is not the answer, especially when that side is the majority of the community.
1) Splitting the people that play this game into two groups is silly, because it never works and every assessment you make from there falls apart.

2) You're considering 2011 as the cutoff date for "veteran" status? LOL! There are those of us that had been playing the game for a DECADE at that point. Maybe consider moving that cutoff to 2004, the Halo 2 launch.
Quote:
The veterans
(YOU DONT COUNT AS A VETERAN IF YOU HAVE STARTED PLAYING THE TRILOGY AFTER 2011. How do you judge a game from 2001 from a 2011 view? Yes, I know it says I've started playing Halo 3 in 2013, but I assure you, I never started playing it on this account. I first played it around 2008 I believe. Halo 1- PC 2004, Halo 2 PC 2007.
Anyways, with each passing day, us veterans get less and less say as more and more of us leave the franchise (as seen by the big population drop from 3 to now--Don't even cite Bravo's new claims, we don't even know how he got them.) We are getting pushed out little by little as more new elements are constantly added that don't resemble the Halo we knew from 2001-2007. Yes, Halo 5 has some retro elements, but you would be pretty foolish if you believe that Halo 5 is geared around a traditional Halo experience rather than a new one. Eventually, I think more and more of us will leave the franchise, especially if Halo 6 turns out similar to Halo 5 (good chance). We won't have a say, and this probably our one last chance for 343 to hear us out before most of the veterans leave as they already are.
you sir, just throw all "veterans" into one pot. i am a long time halo player and really enjoy the way the franchise is going right now.
halo 5 best halo so far.
I started playing Halo with the original Combat Evolved on the Original Xbox, and I apologize for the TL;DR I'm about to leave you all with.

I've played (and beat) Halo 1, 2, 3, ODST, Reach, 4, and 5, and the anniversary version of 1, and 2.
I personally think the last amazing Halo or the best Halo was Halo 3, and the last good Halo was Reach. I really enjoyed Halo 3, Reach, CE, 2, but with 4 and 5 I find the SP interesting, but find issues with the pacing of the story they are trying to tell. Like now it has this kind of Mass Effect vibe to it with the Reclaimer Trilogy/Saga, and I think the story is pretty cool, but just how long and drawn out it feels makes the SP feel kind of jarring or dull at times.

It also doesn't help that Halo 5 almost completely focuses on Locke's team and hardly gave MC's team any gameplay. Yes, I understand that we've had 4 games where you get to play as John 117, but he's always going to be a fan favorite character, and for the marketing trying to say this was going to be a game where MC was on the run for War Crimes and other things and the game would be somewhat even with the campaign it really is far from it. Out of the maybe 12 or 14 levels in the game 11 or so of them are Locke levels. This is also paired with the fact that you can tell that 343 tried too hard to make Locke be their own John 117, because no matter how rigorous the training that the Oni received, Locke wouldn't have been close to an even matchup for John. Not only this, but once the game finally ends, and you see the ending, it feels like the game just started.

For a game that's supposed to be the second entry, it feels more like the start of a trilogy than the middle of a new one. I also didn't like how little The Arbiter (Keith David) was in the game. He's one of my if not my favorite character in the series, and he really got shafted on screentime and overall relevance in the grand scheme of things. Once again, I will praise 343 on the multiplayer aspect of this game, and for the plot of both Halo 4 and 5, and the MP in H5 is a huge improvement over the awful CoD feel of Halo 4. H5's MP in my opinion is everything Halo Reach's multiplayer should have been, with the exception of Warzone Firefight, because Reach's Firefight was better imo, and Reach's SP at least had a matchmaking queue. Now SP kinda feels like it has taken the backburner as it comes down to begging people for SP runs to do SP because matchmaking for that doesn't exist anymore.

I think if Halo is to survive in the hands of 343 they need to

  • Get help from a writer who knows what they are doing so the pacing issues are resolved
  • Bring back SP Local Co-Op
  • Bring back Halo 3's TrueSkill Ranking System
  • Fix the awful spawn points in Halo 5
  • Bring back Matchmaking for Campaign
  • Make the whole game 60fps without sacrificing the enemies frame rate (The enemies not being 60fps takes away the immersion of the game)
  • Add a controller calibration setting that lets us calibrate our controller so we have the least amount of analog drift
  • Make the SP campaign more even in terms of different teams/ characters to level ratio
  • Add forge support for all non-ranked (Casual) gamemodes
  • Put all Halo MP modes from 1,2,3,4,5, and Reach in Halo 6 and beyond
  • Ask Microsoft if you can delay your games so they release more polished if you need to
  • Keep up the free DLC
  • If you're going to allow players to join an "In Progress" MP game, don't count it as a loss for the joining players. It should only count as a loss if they RageQuit, or were there from start to finish.
  • Bring back maps from the other Halo games. Blood Gulch, Valhalla, Lockout, etc.
  • Get help from the community to review disconnects and determining penalization.
I agree, we need a compromise between old and new generation.

I started with Halo CE and I never missed any Halo since the beginning.

I think 343 Industries find a good way in the story with Halo 4, but too many changes. Unlimited sprint for example, or climb. Before that, it wasn't a problem to enjoy the game.

But maybe I'm too old now...

I like Halo 5, but it's not Halo anymore. It's COD with aliens.

Sorry for that 343 Industries... You keep the root with your name, but you lose the identity of this game.
Halo has been a game where various types of fans were able to fully enjoy the game. Halo CE had a great balance of an amazing campaign that many played over and over again, had a great competitive multiplayer, as well as one of the best social multiplayer. Sure the competitive multiplayer was an unplanned phenomenon, but it was a great mistake to have. Halo 2 was very competitive, but it also had a great social aspect as well. I was not a big fan of Halo 3, but I can't ignore the fact that it was the best game that catered to many different types of gamers. Halo Reach and Halo 4 were great to play just for the campaign, multiplayer not so much (in my opinion).

Halo 5 dropped the ball on providing that overall experience to their player base. They are slowly implementing good stuff to please many fans of the Halo franchise. Hopefully when Halo 6 comes out, people will not have to wait as long to have the game that they love to play.
Spoiler:
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I've been around Halo since 2001, does that count?
I think the original trilogy is great fun. But, yes, we move to slowly and the world's are empty (especially ce) compared to modern games.

And I think halo 4 has the best story, by far the most emotionally engaging.

And Halo 5 has the best pvp.

Don't make sweeping declarations on others behalfs', you'll most likely be wrong. In fact, of all the people I know who've played halo since ce, only one of them dislikes 343i
TRON 092 wrote:
343's plan is to annoy veterans as much as possible so we leave and they can turn halo into another basic shooter. We've already got loadouts, ads, and a crapy campaign. Kind sounds like COD AW with some halo stuff. The 343 blind fans don't help either.
Speak for yourself. I bet you give CoD crap for staying the same but yet say Halo needs to stay the same. Sorry but Halo has to change with the times that is a fact you cant just copy and paste Halo 2/3 for each new game other wise it will just not go anywhere. But you know blind Bungie fans don't help.
Quote:
I think if Halo is to survive in the hands of 343 they need to
  • Get help from a writer who knows what they are doing so the pacing issues are resolved
  • Bring back SP Local Co-Op
  • Bring back Halo 3's TrueSkill Ranking System
  • Fix the awful spawn points in Halo 5
  • Bring back Matchmaking for Campaign
  • Make the whole game 60fps without sacrificing the enemies frame rate (The enemies not being 60fps takes away the immersion of the game)
  • Add a controller calibration setting that lets us calibrate our controller so we have the least amount of analog drift
  • Make the SP campaign more even in terms of different teams/ characters to level ratio
  • Add forge support for all non-ranked (Casual) gamemodes
  • Put all Halo MP modes from 1,2,3,4,5, and Reach in Halo 6 and beyond
  • Ask Microsoft if you can delay your games so they release more polished if you need to
  • Keep up the free DLC
  • If you're going to allow players to join an "In Progress" MP game, don't count it as a loss for the joining players. It should only count as a loss if they RageQuit, or were there from start to finish.
  • Bring back maps from the other Halo games. Blood Gulch, Valhalla, Lockout, etc.
  • Get help from the community to review disconnects and determining penalization.
Implying that Halo is somehow dying and has to do something in order to "survive".
  • Better writing - Depends on who you ask. I think the overall story wasn't great but there was a lot of little informational bits that are really interesting. I think part of the issue comes from Hunt the Truth; I heard they had more freedom with the story and I imagine 343 decided to try and warp Halo 5's story to somewhat portray Chief as a traitor like in the audio series, which did not turn out so well for the game.
  • SP CO-OP - That's a technical thing. Personally I'm fine without it but I also have two Xboxes.
  • Halo 3 "True Skill" - From what I remember Halo 3's ranking was a mess with people boosting and making new accounts and whatnot. Halo 5's competitive ranking works really well and the seasons help with that.
  • Spawning - Could be better. Mostly in Warzone though is where it needs fixing.
  • Campaign Matchmaking - Is this necessary? I don't think Halo needs this to "survive".
  • 60 fps - This is a technical limitation. Other aspects would suffer if they did this. And enemies lose frames the farther away they are so for example they are hundreds of feet away and you can barely see them, they aren't gonna be 60 fps because that's a waste.
  • Analog whatever - Don't know what this is or why it's important so can't give my opinion.
  • Campaign Characters - Understandable, though again I don't think this is necessary. Halo 5 was really Osiris'es story so evening it out doesn't make sense in this case. Future games maybe if the story allows it to be.
  • Casual Forge - What support does it need that isn't there?
  • ALL Gamemodes - That is asking a LOT.
  • Delaying - Halo 5 was polished. They planned to have all that additional stuff to be released in updates (minus things like the SPNkr, wasp, and WZFF which were added due to feedback). They've delayed games before (Spartan Strike and Halo Wars 2 for example).
  • Free DLC - Heck yeah.
  • MIP - Would be nice to not be harshly penalized for being put into a game that is almost over and we are already losing. I've had the idea that people who quit more often are put into games more often as a punishment. Not sure how that would work though.
  • Maps - They have a mix of old maps and reimagined maps in multiplayer. All comes down to how they would play in Halo 5's sandbox though.
  • Disconnects - Not sure they really have problems with punishing people for this as far as I'm aware.
While I do really like H5's multiplayer I can see H6 turning into another COD clone like H4 if 343 doesn't listen to the community, but considering what we've gotten in H5's dlc firefight, infection, griftball, all things we asked for prior to the dlc's themselves ever coming out. I have faith 343 will tweek H6 to benefit all halo fans, and yes unlike the OP I think there is a middle road 343 can take, though I think making H6 more like the older games would be much better.
I've been around Halo since 2001, does that count?
I think the original trilogy is great fun. But, yes, we move to slowly and the world's are empty (especially ce) compared to modern games.

And I think halo 4 has the best story, by far the most emotionally engaging.

And Halo 5 has the best pvp.

Don't make sweeping declarations on others behalfs', you'll most likely be wrong. In fact, of all the people I know who've played halo since ce, only one of them dislikes 343i
Halo 4 - Best story
Halo 5 - Best multiplayer
ODST - Best campaign gameplay

Would also love people to make declarations on other people's behalfs. When these threads get popular I fear 343 will just think that means people agree it's bad and do things like "remove sprint and all abilities" and return the game to be basically Halo 2/3.
I suppose that I can call myself a veteran even though I did not genuinely attempt playing through all of Combat Evolved until years later (same thing with Ocarina of Time. I mostly watched my brother play those games, and when I played, I skipped Flood levels and, with OoT, asked my brother to beat The Bottom of the Well and Shadow Temple for me). I was 12 years old when CE came out on the Xbox, and it certainly has been my favorite FPS series of all time. However, I am probably the "odd one out" here as I don't enjoy playing competitive multiplayer, so therefore all of my opinions on Halo are based solely on the Campaign mode and story. In that regard, I really am not happy with the direction 343i is taking this franchise. I finally bought and beat Halo 4 within the last 6 months, and I was pleasantly surprised by its story despite my reservations at first. But then Halo 5...it looks like a travesty. I've watched gameplay/cutscenes of the Campaign and read reviews and synopses, and I can say that I don't like Halo 5's story. I also have very little interest in most of the EU materials due to not liking some of the new and side characters, developments, and stories, as well as lore changes, that have been introduced post Halo 3. It just doesn't feel the same, and is trying to overexplain everything. I also am having "Spartan fatigue" due to all of the new Spartan characters, and most of them not engaging me as a reader/gamer/viewer.
They only want to sell the game
H BIRYANI wrote:
Halo 5 was even more divisive than Halo 4. We can mostly agree that Halo 4 was awful. Its strange, where did all the Halo 4 lovers go? Anyways, neither side is getting headway. Its obvious 343 prefers this new state of Halo and only adds in these old elements probably for fan service and to retain us as players. Let me sum up both camps:

The veterans
(YOU DONT COUNT AS A VETERAN IF YOU HAVE STARTED PLAYING THE TRILOGY AFTER 2011. How do you judge a game from 2001 from a 2011 view? Yes, I know it says I've started playing Halo 3 in 2013, but I assure you, I never started playing it on this account. I first played it around 2008 I believe. Halo 1- PC 2004, Halo 2 PC 2007.
Anyways, with each passing day, us veterans get less and less say as more and more of us leave the franchise (as seen by the big population drop from 3 to now--Don't even cite Bravo's new claims, we don't even know how he got them.) We are getting pushed out little by little as more new elements are constantly added that don't resemble the Halo we knew from 2001-2007. Yes, Halo 5 has some retro elements, but you would be pretty foolish if you believe that Halo 5 is geared around a traditional Halo experience rather than a new one. Eventually, I think more and more of us will leave the franchise, especially if Halo 6 turns out similar to Halo 5 (good chance). We won't have a say, and this probably our one last chance for 343 to hear us out before most of the veterans leave as they already are.

The new generation
These people started from Reach, 4, or 5. The most annoying of them all are the people who started playing Halo from Halo 5, and never played any other Halo. These people believe they know what they are talking about, while they don't realize Halo is a 15-year franchise, while they only have played one title in the franchise for less than a year (Halo 5). Moving on, the new generation probably makes up more and more of the current Halo population, and will likely do so. This is seen by the huge change on Waypoint where most of the users on here probably prefer the new Halo compared to Waypoint 4 years ago where most of the forums were composed of the veterans. The new generation is going to easily become 80% of the Halo population in a few years. You can already see it on the forums where one veteran might make a point, but a counterpoint from a new generation fan will easily gain the same amount of likes or more. This may show that many more people favor the POV of the new generation.

BTW, new generation, stop claiming that Halo 1-3 are "too slow, too ugly, little armor customization, blah blah." Judge a game from the time it came out. You think a game like Halo 3, literally 9 years old, could've shipped with 200 different armors? Imagine me trying to judge 1995 Doom from a 2016 POV. "Horrible graphics, short and awful story, too linear, blah blah" that's basically what you are doing if you played the trilogy past 2010 and started to berate it. There is a reason all three games had 93+ metacritic ratings (VERY HIGH)

343, you can't pull a Halo 5 and try to appease both sides of Halo.
Examples:
Rocket Launcher -IF IT HAD JUST BEEN SPNKR, no one would've complained... no one was begging for a new rocket launcher, or so I believe...
Wraith------No one asked for the new design, but if they did they got it.
Sprint--The no recharge was not enough of a compromise. Much more needs to be done on this.
Armor abilities- Same as sprint. Too many people like them, too many people hate them.
Art theme--No one hated the old art style, plus bring back blood! No one asked for a new art style. If they kept it as old, no one would've started to complain.
Characters in Campaign- For us veterans, seeing Arby n the Chief reunited was something we looked forward to... Oh wait, it never even happened in the campaign. You can't try to appease the old veterans by featuring Arbiter and the Chief, but at the same time shine the spotlight at fireteam...I don't even know their name.

This middle of the road path isn't going to work in Halo 6, Halo Wars 2, or any other game. 343, follow through with one path. Stick with the old, and stop with all the arguing because no one complained about the old stuff but only appease to the now-minority of veteran players, or go with the new, have some arguing from the veterans, but ultimately sustain the now-larger portion that is composed of the new generation.
You summed it up beautifully. Starting from around 03, I completely agree with what you have to say (albeit with some over generalization). 343 can't support both sides and make it an engaging experience.
1) Splitting the people that play this game into two groups is silly, because it never works and every assessment you make from there falls apart.

2) You're considering 2011 as the cutoff date for "veteran" status? LOL! There are those of us that had been playing the game for a DECADE at that point. Maybe consider moving that cutoff to 2004, the Halo 2 launch.
I can agree with this. Because didn't Reach come out in 2010?
"YOU DONT COUNT AS A VETERAN IF YOU HAVE STARTED PLAYING THE TRILOGY AFTER 2011"

Your only a veteran if you started playing in 2001
Account for some lag time there, I'd say 03-04.
The only true test, I believe, is if the individual played all of the classic trilogy.
1) Splitting the people that play this game into two groups is silly, because it never works and every assessment you make from there falls apart.

2) You're considering 2011 as the cutoff date for "veteran" status? LOL! There are those of us that had been playing the game for a DECADE at that point. Maybe consider moving that cutoff to 2004, the Halo 2 launch.
I can agree with this. Because didn't Reach come out in 2010?
Sure did.

It's a useless distinction, regardless of the topic, but I just find it funny people frequently stick the designation approximately around the point they joined the franchise to validate their arguments.
Cool. Im a veteran.

Oh, and by the way. Halo 4 and Halo 5 are the 2 best games in the series in my opinion.
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