Forums / Games / Halo 5: Guardians

Battle Rifle Tuning for BTB and Warzone

OP l3ackdraft

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I vote for the Battle Rifle (Stabilization Jets)
I agree. Please put a consistent loadout weapon in BTB. The Stabilization BR is perfect.
I 100% absolutely agree with this. It would sure bring a smile to my face. @chantrocity did you end up getting them enlargement pills?
Stabilization Jets is the way to go!
Unyshek wrote:
l3ackdraft wrote:
Hello Unyshek, community leaders, and 343.
...
-Love the BTB Community
Hey l3ackdraft - thank you for speaking up and sharing your opinion!

Weapon tuning changes like the A, B, C, & D options you mentioned above would require a content update, which requires a lot of different key teams from the studio to build out, test, and implement. Since all of these teams have shifted focus towards Halo Infinite, there are no currently plans to release any additional content updates for Halo 5. While I never say never, unfortunately this means that any additional weapon tuning is not currently in our plans.

However, your plea has not fallen on deaf ears. After a quick chat with H5's Sustain Team to see if there were any other options we could consider, we wanted to ask you and the community to consider some other options:
  1. Replace the Battle Rifle with Battle Rifle (Stabilization Jets) to reduce recoil
  2. Replace the Battle Rifle with the Pistol, which has also been a fairly common request
While I can't promise anything, I can reassure you that we are listening and looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Thank you again for reaching out, and please let us know what you think!
Replacing the battle rifle with stabilization jets ! I’ve been saying this since the last tuning update!!!!!
Imo. The stabilization jets BR sounds like a good option. However, I do not think the “random” recoil (which is vertical I don’t understand why people say it’s random) brings a little skill gap. You have to control the recoil and your aiming in longer ranges. What I do is aim below the chest in longer ranges to get a more effective kill. I think the best solution is use a Long Barrel BR.
I’ve talked about this before. In ARENA, the LONG BARREL BR will have a higher hip fire range/scope range than the Magnum. But will still not be as powerful as the other rifles.
In BTB, you will have the OG BR range but you have to be better at aiming because of the recoil. I’ve tested it on custom games and it works really well.
I see what you're saying, because most other games, people complaining about recoil would be laughable. However, Halo is a somewhat unique game due to longer TTK and weapon combos... not to mention thrust.

Imagine two players of equal skill 1v1 on the battlefield... in the current state a BR can not even compete with a Carbine or Light Rifle at medium to long ranges. It tends to beat a Carbine short range with the right strafes or melees, but a Light Rifle at close range will absolutely win. H2 BR obviously destroys the normal BR as well, but might be a little too OP to be a starting weapon.

To bring the BR in balance with these other weapons, the Stabilization Jets seem better than the Long Barrel (even though Stabilization Jets look ugly).
Stabilization jets please!
Unyshek wrote:
l3ackdraft wrote:
Hello Unyshek, community leaders, and 343.
...
-Love the BTB Community
Hey l3ackdraft - thank you for speaking up and sharing your opinion!

Weapon tuning changes like the A, B, C, & D options you mentioned above would require a content update, which requires a lot of different key teams from the studio to build out, test, and implement. Since all of these teams have shifted focus towards Halo Infinite, there are no currently plans to release any additional content updates for Halo 5. While I never say never, unfortunately this means that any additional weapon tuning is not currently in our plans.

However, your plea has not fallen on deaf ears. After a quick chat with H5's Sustain Team to see if there were any other options we could consider, we wanted to ask you and the community to consider some other options:
  1. Replace the Battle Rifle with Battle Rifle (Stabilization Jets) to reduce recoil
  2. Replace the Battle Rifle with the Pistol, which has also been a fairly common request
While I can't promise anything, I can reassure you that we are listening and looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Thank you again for reaching out, and please let us know what you think!
Your response is very much appreciated for sure. I don't think any of us want to pull resources from Halo Infinite. I think your suggestions provide a very reasonable compromise. Even though both options are nice upgrades I think I would prefer option 1. BR (With Stabilization Jets).
Unyshek wrote:
l3ackdraft wrote:
Hello Unyshek, community leaders, and 343.
...
-Love the BTB Community
Hey l3ackdraft - thank you for speaking up and sharing your opinion!

Weapon tuning changes like the A, B, C, & D options you mentioned above would require a content update, which requires a lot of different key teams from the studio to build out, test, and implement. Since all of these teams have shifted focus towards Halo Infinite, there are no currently plans to release any additional content updates for Halo 5. While I never say never, unfortunately this means that any additional weapon tuning is not currently in our plans.

However, your plea has not fallen on deaf ears. After a quick chat with H5's Sustain Team to see if there were any other options we could consider, we wanted to ask you and the community to consider some other options:
  1. Replace the Battle Rifle with Battle Rifle (Stabilization Jets) to reduce recoil
  2. Replace the Battle Rifle with the Pistol, which has also been a fairly common request
While I can't promise anything, I can reassure you that we are listening and looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Thank you again for reaching out, and please let us know what you think!
I think option 1 is the hottest option. Thank you I3ackdraft for posting this!
I stopped playing due to the state of the BR. Too much pistol play, not enough classic BR.
dopesolja wrote:
IMO. The Stabilization Jets BR sounds like a good option. However, I do think the “random” recoil (which is vertical -- I don’t understand why people say it’s random) brings a little skill gap. You have to control the recoil and your aiming in longer ranges. What I do is aim below the chest in longer ranges to get a more effective kill. I think the best solution is use a Long Barrel BR.

I’ve talked about this before. In BTB, you will have the OG BR range but you have to be better at aiming because of the recoil. I’ve tested it on custom games and it works really well.
...

To bring the BR in balance with these other weapons, the Stabilization Jets seem better than the Long Barrel.
Why and how? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm simply interested in hearing a detailed accounting for your reason to make such an asserted statement. As I breakdown the H5BR and those two attachments (Long-Barrel & Stabilization Jets) I'll explain where I see the subjective pros and cons and why I think the Long-Barrel **might** be best.

Default [Recon] H5BR: The vertical recoil is a key component in restricting the BR's effectiveness outside of its Red-Reticle-Ranges (RRRs) which also greatly helps prevent it from being a cross-map laser. However, its RRRs are pretty minimal respective to other precision weapons which I think is its biggest issue. The recoil forces players to aim center mass to land all three bullets at distances beyond its RRRs which can be frustrating, but this drop in effectiveness outside of RRR directly improves map movement/traversing. The primary issue, as I see it, with the default H5BR is that its hip-fire RRR is way too short. It's tied with the LR while being outclassed by the Carbine, DMR, and two of the Magnums (standard & tactical). These "other" precision weapons also happen to be much more effective beyond their RRRs (which is fine) and most of them are more lethal too (better optimal TTKs). This is why I advocate for the H5BR to demonstrate some niche area where it has some actual strength over the "other" precision weapons. At the same time the sizable loss in effectiveness beyond RRR for the H5BR could be argued as being fairly positive for the BTB environment; especially, since it's the primary loadout option. Anyways, it's my opinion that the area where the H5BR requires its biggest improvement is in its hip-fire RRR.

Long-Barrel [Recon] H5BR: The Long-Barrel H5BR boosts the hip-fire RRR of the BR (12 world units from 10) to match that of the standard and tactical Magnums. It also boosts its ADS RRR too (24 world units from 20), but beyond these increased RRRs the BR will still lose a noticeable amount of its effectiveness because of the recoil paired with no magnetism assistance. As mentioned above this drop in effectiveness, outside of its RRRs, directly correlates toward improved map movement/traversing which is a fairly integral aspect of the game-play within the Big Team environment. The Long-Barrel attachment essentially grants the BR (and in-turn players) more distance where it'll be quite effective and competitive with "other" precision weapons (even a slight leg up on some in specific mid-ranges) while still maintaining a similar drop in effectiveness beyond these extended ranges. As I see it this helps maintain an integral element of the Big Team environment regarding more freedom to move about the map in order to make plays on objectives while also affording the weapon a key improvement.

Stabilization Jets [Recon] H5BR: The Stabilization Jets H5BR basically removes the vertical recoil. The RRRs remain the same as the default H5BR which means it'll still face most of the same disadvantages in comparison to "other" precision weapons as before, but it will gain an improvement in its effectiveness beyond its RRRs. While it's effectiveness will still drop-off beyond its RRRs because it won't have the benefits of magnetism assistance the drop-off will not be nearly as noticeable absent the recoil. The primary question that I think needs to be answered is how much will this improved effectiveness beyond RRR harm the freedom to traverse the maps? Will the Stabilization Jets essentially return the H5BR back into a potential cross-map capable laser? No doubt, it'll be a less capable cross-map laser in comparison to the pre-tuned BR given all of the other changes to it, but will this version hit the sweet spot or will it essentially harm the mode's game-play? The Stabilization Jets also won't grant the H5BR any real niche area of strength where it'll have any kind of noticeable leg-up on most "other" precision weapons.

EDIT: Anyways, only through thorough testing will we know for sure which choice is best. It's possible that people will be happier with the subjective feel of the Stabilization Jets while at the same time they may eventually realize that the mode's objective experiences aren't as good as they'd be with the Long-Barrel. All I know for sure is that I'd like to see either the Long-Barrel or Stabilization Jets H5BR replace the Default H5BR across all of the Arena Environments.
eLantern wrote:
dopesolja wrote:
IMO. The Stabilization Jets BR sounds like a good option. However, I do think the “random” recoil (which is vertical -- I don’t understand why people say it’s random) brings a little skill gap. You have to control the recoil and your aiming in longer ranges. What I do is aim below the chest in longer ranges to get a more effective kill. I think the best solution is use a Long Barrel BR.

I’ve talked about this before. In BTB, you will have the OG BR range but you have to be better at aiming because of the recoil. I’ve tested it on custom games and it works really well.
...

To bring the BR in balance with these other weapons, the Stabilization Jets seem better than the Long Barrel (even though Stabilization Jets look ugly).
Why and how? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm simply interested in hearing a detailed accounting for your reason to make such an asserted statement. As I breakdown the H5BR and those two attachments (Long-Barrel & Stabilization Jets) I'll explain where I see the subjective pros and cons and why I think the Long-Barrel **might** be best.

Default [Recon] H5BR: The vertical recoil is a key component in restricting its effectiveness outside of its Red-Reticle-Ranges (RRRs) which also greatly helps prevent it from being a cross-map laser. However, its RRRs are pretty minimal respective to other precision weapons. The recoil forces players to aim center mass to land all three bullets at distances beyond its RRRs which can be frustrating, but this drop in effectiveness outside of RRR directly improves map movement/traversing. The primary issue, as I see it, with the default H5BR is that its hip-fire RRR is way too short. It's tied with the LR while being outclassed by the Carbine, DMR, and two of the Magnums (standard & tactical). These "other" precision weapons also happen to be much more effective beyond their RRRs then the H5BR is, but at the same time the sizable loss in effectiveness beyond RRR for the H5BR could be argued as being fairly positive for the BTB environment. Anyways, it's my opinion that the area where the H5BR requires its biggest improvement is in its hip-fire RRR which should give it a leg up on several of the "other" precision weapons while at the same time maintaining its sizable drop-off in effectiveness beyond its RRRs.

Long-Barrel [Recon] H5BR: The Long-Barrel H5BR boosts the hip-fire RRR of the BR (12 world units from 10) to match that of the standard and tactical Magnums. It also boosts its ADS RRR too (24 world units from 20), but beyond these increased RRRs the BR will still lose a noticeable amount of its effectiveness because of the recoil paired with no aim assistance. As mentioned above this drop in effectiveness, outside of its RRRs, directly correlates toward improved map movement/traversing which is a fairly integral aspect of the mode's game-play. The Long-Barrel attachment essentially grants the BR (and in-turn players) more distance where it'll be quite effective and competitive with "other" precision weapons while still maintaining a similar drop in effectiveness beyond these extended ranges. As I see it this helps maintain an integral element of the Big Team environment regarding more freedom to move about the map in order to make plays on objectives while also affording the weapon a key improvement.

Stabilization Jets [Recon] H5BR: The Stabilization Jets H5BR basically removes or significantly reduces the vertical recoil. The RRRs remain the same as the default H5BR which means it'll still face most of the same disadvantages in comparison to "other" precision weapons as before, but it will gain an improvement in its effectiveness beyond its RRRs. While it's effectiveness will still drop-off beyond its RRRs because it won't have aim assistance benefits the drop-off will not be nearly as noticeable absent the recoil. The primary question that I think needs to be answered is how much will this improved effectiveness beyond RRR harm the freedom to traverse the maps? Will the Stabilization Jets essentially return the H5BR back into a potential cross-map capable laser? No doubt, it'll be a less capable cross-map laser in comparison to the pre-tuned BR, but will it hit the sweet spot or will it essentially harm the mode's game-play? Only through thorough testing will we know for sure because it is possible that people will be happier with the feel of the weapon while at the same time they may eventually realize that the mode's objective experiences aren't as good.
I like how you laid out the differences between the long barrel BR and the stabilizing jets one and how they would affect gameplay. I'll go into warzone and tinker with the long barrel today, but I have use dthe stabilizing jets one quite a bit and I am pretty comfortable with the BR and think it might be the better option between the two. We played customs with it and while it wasnt an overwhelming difference in gameplay, it was definitely more enjoyable. Will have to test the long barrel one more. Havent used it since before the update and that thing was a beast at level 5 req back in the day.
eLantern wrote:
dopesolja wrote:
IMO. The Stabilization Jets BR sounds like a good option. However, I do think the “random” recoil (which is vertical -- I don’t understand why people say it’s random) brings a little skill gap. You have to control the recoil and your aiming in longer ranges. What I do is aim below the chest in longer ranges to get a more effective kill. I think the best solution is use a Long Barrel BR.

I’ve talked about this before. In BTB, you will have the OG BR range but you have to be better at aiming because of the recoil. I’ve tested it on custom games and it works really well.
...

To bring the BR in balance with these other weapons, the Stabilization Jets seem better than the Long Barrel (even though Stabilization Jets look ugly).
Why and how? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm simply interested in hearing a detailed accounting for your reason to make such an asserted statement. As I breakdown the H5BR and those two attachments (Long-Barrel & Stabilization Jets) I'll explain where I see the subjective pros and cons and why I think the Long-Barrel **might** be best.

Default [Recon] H5BR: The vertical recoil is a key component in restricting its effectiveness outside of its Red-Reticle-Ranges (RRRs) which also greatly helps prevent it from being a cross-map laser. However, its RRRs are pretty minimal respective to other precision weapons which I think is its biggest issue. The recoil forces players to aim center mass to land all three bullets at distances beyond its RRRs which can be frustrating, but this drop in effectiveness outside of RRR directly improves map movement/traversing. The primary issue, as I see it, with the default H5BR is that its hip-fire RRR is way too short. It's tied with the LR while being outclassed by the Carbine, DMR, and two of the Magnums (standard & tactical). These "other" precision weapons also happen to be much more effective beyond their RRRs then the H5BR is and most of them are more lethal too. At the same time the sizable loss in effectiveness beyond RRR for the H5BR could be argued as being fairly positive for the BTB environment; especially, since it's the primary loadout option. Anyways, it's my opinion that the area where the H5BR requires its biggest improvement is in its hip-fire RRR which should give it a leg up on several of the "other" precision weapons while the recoil helps to maintain its sizable drop-off in effectiveness beyond its RRRs.

Long-Barrel [Recon] H5BR: The Long-Barrel H5BR boosts the hip-fire RRR of the BR (12 world units from 10) to match that of the standard and tactical Magnums. It also boosts its ADS RRR too (24 world units from 20), but beyond these increased RRRs the BR will still lose a noticeable amount of its effectiveness because of the recoil paired with no magnetism assistance. As mentioned above this drop in effectiveness, outside of its RRRs, directly correlates toward improved map movement/traversing which is a fairly integral aspect of the mode's game-play. The Long-Barrel attachment essentially grants the BR (and in-turn players) more distance where it'll be quite effective and competitive with "other" precision weapons while still maintaining a similar drop in effectiveness beyond these extended ranges. As I see it this helps maintain an integral element of the Big Team environment regarding more freedom to move about the map in order to make plays on objectives while also affording the weapon a key improvement.

Stabilization Jets [Recon] H5BR: The Stabilization Jets H5BR basically removes or significantly reduces the vertical recoil. The RRRs remain the same as the default H5BR which means it'll still face most of the same disadvantages in comparison to "other" precision weapons as before, but it will gain an improvement in its effectiveness beyond its RRRs. While it's effectiveness will still drop-off beyond its RRRs because it won't have the benefits of magnetism assistance the drop-off will not be nearly as noticeable absent the recoil. The primary question that I think needs to be answered is how much will this improved effectiveness beyond RRR harm the freedom to traverse the maps? Will the Stabilization Jets essentially return the H5BR back into a potential cross-map capable laser? No doubt, it'll be a less capable cross-map laser in comparison to the pre-tuned BR, but will it hit the sweet spot or will it essentially harm the mode's game-play? Only through thorough testing will we know for sure because it is possible that people will be happier with the feel of the weapon while at the same time they may eventually realize that the mode's objective experiences aren't as good.
"Thorough testing" - I'm not sure if the H5 BR post-tune was thoroughly tested when they 1st launched it. If it was thoroughly tested, they must have received incredibly unreliable feedback, because it was an abomination.
eLantern wrote:
dopesolja wrote:
IMO. The Stabilization Jets BR sounds like a good option. However, I do think the “random” recoil (which is vertical -- I don’t understand why people say it’s random) brings a little skill gap. You have to control the recoil and your aiming in longer ranges. What I do is aim below the chest in longer ranges to get a more effective kill. I think the best solution is use a Long Barrel BR.

I’ve talked about this before. In BTB, you will have the OG BR range but you have to be better at aiming because of the recoil. I’ve tested it on custom games and it works really well.
...

To bring the BR in balance with these other weapons, the Stabilization Jets seem better than the Long Barrel (even though Stabilization Jets look ugly).
Why and how? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm simply interested in hearing a detailed accounting for your reason to make such an asserted statement. As I breakdown the H5BR and those two attachments (Long-Barrel & Stabilization Jets) I'll explain where I see the subjective pros and cons and why I think the Long-Barrel **might** be best.

Default [Recon] H5BR: The vertical recoil is a key component in restricting its effectiveness outside of its Red-Reticle-Ranges (RRRs) which also greatly helps prevent it from being a cross-map laser. However, its RRRs are pretty minimal respective to other precision weapons which I think is its biggest issue. The recoil forces players to aim center mass to land all three bullets at distances beyond its RRRs which can be frustrating, but this drop in effectiveness outside of RRR directly improves map movement/traversing. The primary issue, as I see it, with the default H5BR is that its hip-fire RRR is way too short. It's tied with the LR while being outclassed by the Carbine, DMR, and two of the Magnums (standard & tactical). These "other" precision weapons also happen to be much more effective beyond their RRRs then the H5BR is and most of them are more lethal too (better optimal TTKs). At the same time the sizable loss in effectiveness beyond RRR for the H5BR could be argued as being fairly positive for the BTB environment; especially, since it's the primary loadout option. Anyways, it's my opinion that the area where the H5BR requires its biggest improvement is in its hip-fire RRR which should give it a leg up on several of the "other" precision weapons while the recoil helps to maintain its sizable drop-off in effectiveness beyond its RRRs.

Long-Barrel [Recon] H5BR: The Long-Barrel H5BR boosts the hip-fire RRR of the BR (12 world units from 10) to match that of the standard and tactical Magnums. It also boosts its ADS RRR too (24 world units from 20), but beyond these increased RRRs the BR will still lose a noticeable amount of its effectiveness because of the recoil paired with no magnetism assistance. As mentioned above this drop in effectiveness, outside of its RRRs, directly correlates toward improved map movement/traversing which is a fairly integral aspect of the game-play within the Big Team environment. The Long-Barrel attachment essentially grants the BR (and in-turn players) more distance where it'll be quite effective and competitive with "other" precision weapons (even a slight leg up on some in specific mid-ranges) while still maintaining a similar drop in effectiveness beyond these extended ranges. As I see it this helps maintain an integral element of the Big Team environment regarding more freedom to move about the map in order to make plays on objectives while also affording the weapon a key improvement.

Stabilization Jets [Recon] H5BR: The Stabilization Jets H5BR basically removes or significantly reduces the vertical recoil. The RRRs remain the same as the default H5BR which means it'll still face most of the same disadvantages in comparison to "other" precision weapons as before, but it will gain an improvement in its effectiveness beyond its RRRs. While it's effectiveness will still drop-off beyond its RRRs because it won't have the benefits of magnetism assistance the drop-off will not be nearly as noticeable absent the recoil. The primary question that I think needs to be answered is how much will this improved effectiveness beyond RRR harm the freedom to traverse the maps? Will the Stabilization Jets essentially return the H5BR back into a potential cross-map capable laser? No doubt, it'll be a less capable cross-map laser in comparison to the pre-tuned BR given all of the other changes to it, but will this version hit the sweet spot or will it essentially harm the mode's game-play? Only through thorough testing will we know for sure because it is possible that people will be happier with the subjective feel of the weapon while at the same time they may eventually realize that the mode's objective experiences aren't as good.

EDIT: All I know for sure is that I'd like to see either the Long-Barrel or Stabilization Jets H5BR replace the Default H5BR across all of the arena environment.
THANK YOU SO MUCH for the detailed answer. This guy understands me lol
Yes please add the stabilization jets battle rifle to btb.
eLantern wrote:
dopesolja wrote:
IMO. The Stabilization Jets BR sounds like a good option. However, I do think the “random” recoil (which is vertical -- I don’t understand why people say it’s random) brings a little skill gap. You have to control the recoil and your aiming in longer ranges. What I do is aim below the chest in longer ranges to get a more effective kill. I think the best solution is use a Long Barrel BR.

I’ve talked about this before. In BTB, you will have the OG BR range but you have to be better at aiming because of the recoil. I’ve tested it on custom games and it works really well.
...

To bring the BR in balance with these other weapons, the Stabilization Jets seem better than the Long Barrel.
Why and how? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm simply interested in hearing a detailed accounting for your reason to make such an asserted statement.
I'm on my phone so I'm less able to seperate my replies to your entire post by paragraph. I respect most of your thoughtful analysis and understanding of how each variant performs. We're on the same page in understanding how RRR provides the benefit of aim assist by automatically adjusting your crosshair to follow the enemy, as well as how it provides the benefit of bullet magnetism in reducing the spread and recoil pattern, and actually helping to curve your shot to the target's head.

However, you discussed how aiming for center mass with the BR is more effective. In my experience playing the vast majority of all popular multiplayer FPS games released since the late 90s, a game that doesn't reward skilled players for aiming for the head and landing those critical shots is incredibly bad. That's just horrible gameplay; I'm sorry. It's noob friendly and it works for casual games.... but Halo is not supposed to be casual.

Additionally, I strongly disagree with your perception of the normal H5BR being tied with the Light Rifle. I explained my perception in my above post, and I've been playing competitive BTB scrims and customs since shortly after the release of BTB. In an evenly matched fight, the Carbine and Light Rifle destroy the H5BR in almost every situation.

You think that the core BTB experience and traversing of the map is diminished by the BR not having increased spread? I have to again strongly disagree with you. Everyone has a Carbine, Light Rifle, DMR, or H2BR whenever possible... skilled players can cross map kill a fully shielded player easily with these weapons.... not to mention a Hydra or Sniper Rifle. The reality is that allowing the starting weapon to be this ineffective is encouraging one sided games and making it easier to spawn trap. Try fighting your way out of a camped spawn Deadlock without grabbing a Carbine. Before the nerf this wasn't an issue.

In addition, the H5BR in it's current state has made shooting a Warthog gunner or a Ghost driver out of their vehicle so much harder on respawn. The nerf of the H5BR literally made farming in BTB so much worse, which probably encouraged the ridiculous MMR matchmaking restrictions.

Now that I stated my disagreements, I agree with your statements about the performance of the Long Barrel and Stabilization for the most part in terms of raw gunplay. The issue here, which you have stated, is that the only advantage of the Long Barrel is RRR. This advantage does not address any of the issues I broke down above. A massive portion of high level BTB gameplay takes place outside RRR.

The statements some have made about controlling recoil as part of being a skilled player doesn't really apply to Halo as much as it would Battlefield. From my perspective, Halo has evolved from having similarities to Arena shooters like Quake and Doom. It's about the movement and gunplay, not the spread and recoil patterns. Just look at how easy it is to use the Sniper.

As I said above, the current state of the H5BR has a negative effect on map movement. When you spawn, you need a fair chance to fight your way out of spawn trap hell. You can't fairly keep up with the real Precision Weapons or fight a Gauss Hog with the vertical bullet spread of this BR.

Pistols would be better than the current BR, but then I think they would do less area/explosive damage against Banshees/Wraiths/Ghosts than the current BR.

Another thing to look back on is why we're in this current state. Others have explained the series of events all ready. They were focusing on the current BR changes for HCS. When that fell through, they didn't truly fix the problem or seriously consider the effects that it had on BTB.

Given our limited options, the Stabilization Jets BR makes the most sense. You're more than welcome to play customs with us to compare the weapons and hear opinions from various competitive BTB players.

Lastly, I want to thank both of you guys for supporting the BTB community.
dopesolja wrote:
eLantern wrote:
dopesolja wrote:
IMO. The Stabilization Jets BR sounds like a good option. However, I do think the “random” recoil (which is vertical -- I don’t understand why people say it’s random) brings a little skill gap. You have to control the recoil and your aiming in longer ranges. What I do is aim below the chest in longer ranges to get a more effective kill. I think the best solution is use a Long Barrel BR.

I’ve talked about this before. In BTB, you will have the OG BR range but you have to be better at aiming because of the recoil. I’ve tested it on custom games and it works really well.
...

To bring the BR in balance with these other weapons, the Stabilization Jets seem better than the Long Barrel.
Why and how? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm simply interested in hearing a detailed accounting for your reason to make such an asserted statement.
I'm on my phone so I'm less able to seperate my replies to your entire post by paragraph. I respect most of your thoughtful analysis and understanding of how each variant performs. We're on the same page in understanding how RRR provides the benefit of aim assist by automatically adjusting your crosshair to follow the enemy, as well as how it provides the benefit of bullet magnetism in reducing the spread and recoil pattern, and actually helping to curve your shot to the target's head.

However, you discussed how aiming for center mass with the BR is more effective. In my experience playing the vast majority of all popular multiplayer FPS games released since the late 90s, a game that doesn't reward skilled players for aiming for the head and landing those critical shots is incredibly bad. That's just horrible gameplay; I'm sorry. It's noob friendly and it works for casual games.... but Halo is not supposed to be casual.

Additionally, I strongly disagree with your perception of the normal H5BR being tied with the Light Rifle. I explained my perception in my above post, and I've been playing competitive BTB scrims and customs since shortly after the release of BTB. In an evenly matched fight, the Carbine and Light Rifle destroy the H5BR in almost every situation.

You think that the core BTB experience and traversing of the map is diminished by the BR having increased spread? I have to again strongly disagree with you. Everyone has a Carbine, Light Rifle, DMR, or H2BR whenever possible... skilled players can cross map kill a fully shielded player easily with these weapons.... not to mention a Hydra or Sniper Rifle. The reality is that allowing the starting weapon to be this ineffective is encouraging one sided games and making it easier to spawn trap. Try fighting your way out of a camped spawn Deadlock without grabbing a Carbine. Before the nerf this wasn't an issue.

In addition, the H5BR in it's current state has made shooting a Warthog gunner or a Ghost driver out of their vehicle so much harder on respawn. The nerf of the H5BR literally made farming in BTB so much worse, which probably encouraged the ridiculous MMR matchmaking restrictions.

Now that I stated my disagreements, I agree with your statements about the performance of the Long Barrel and Stabilization for the most part in terms of raw gunplay. The issue here, which you have stated, is that the only advantage of the Long Barrel is RRR. This advantage does not address any of the issues I broke down above. A massive portion of high level BTB gameplay takes place outside RRR.

The statements some have made about controlling recoil as part of being a skilled player doesn't really apply to Halo as much as it would Battlefield. From my perspective, Halo has evolved from having similarities to Arena shooters like Quake and Doom. It's about the movement and gunplay, not the spread and recoil patterns. Just look at how easy it is to use the Sniper.

As I said above, the current state of the H5BR has a negative effect on map movement. When you spawn, you need a fair chance to fight your way out of spawn trap hell. You can't fairly keep up with the real Precision Weapons or fight a Gauss Hog with the vertical bullet spread of this BR.

Pistols would be better than the current BR, but then I think they would do less area/explosive damage against Banshees/Wraiths/Ghosts than the current BR.

Another thing to look back on is why we're in this current state. Others have explained the series of events all ready. They were focusing on the current BR changes for HCS. When that fell through, they didn't truly fix the problem or seriously consider the effects that it had on BTB.

Given our limited options, the Stabilization Jets BR makes the most sense. You're more than welcome to play customs with us to compare the weapons and hear opinions from various competitive BTB players.

Lastly, I want to thank both of you guys for supporting the BTB community.
I really like this post and you make a good point about the hog gunner being annoyingly hard to kill now. I guess I never really thought about why it got harder to kill the gunner since I have been playing Halo 3 a lot and it is the same in that game as well. I thought I just got really bad at Halo 5. The same goes for the Gungoose on Entombed. If you shoot at their head, you are most likely shooting 6-7 shots to kill them when they one tap you with their missiles. You can't shoot below their head because then you would hit their vehicle. So no matter what, unless you are right next to the vehicle, you are not getting the full effect of the burst when shooting these two vehicles with the current BR.
dopesolja wrote:
eLantern wrote:
dopesolja wrote:
IMO. The Stabilization Jets BR sounds like a good option. However, I do think the “random” recoil (which is vertical -- I don’t understand why people say it’s random) brings a little skill gap. You have to control the recoil and your aiming in longer ranges. What I do is aim below the chest in longer ranges to get a more effective kill. I think the best solution is use a Long Barrel BR.

I’ve talked about this before. In BTB, you will have the OG BR range but you have to be better at aiming because of the recoil. I’ve tested it on custom games and it works really well.
To bring the BR in balance with these other weapons, the Stabilization Jets seem better than the Long Barrel.
Why and how? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm simply interested in hearing a detailed accounting for your reason to make such an asserted statement.
I respect most of your thoughtful analysis and understanding of how each variant performs. We're on the same page in understanding how RRR provides the benefit of aim assist by automatically adjusting your crosshair to follow the enemy, as well as how it provides the benefit of bullet magnetism in reducing the spread and recoil pattern, and actually helping to curve your shot to the target's head.
Thank you and yes... for the most part. To clarify, there is actually two separate bullet magnetisms in effect on top of the reticle magnetism that is best described as "sticky aim". The two different bullet magnetisms are in reference to two different hitboxes -- the head and the rest of the body. Now these bullet magnetisms don't directly reduce the weapon's bullet spread (which relates to its recoil), but they do indirectly influence that spread by bending the bullets towards or onto the target.
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You discussed how aiming for center mass with the BR is more effective. In my experience ... a game that doesn't reward players for aiming for the head and landing those critical shots is incredibly bad.
I was merely describing how aiming for center mass becomes the most effective method to land a full burst outside of RRR. And I acknowledged the frustrations this can seemly cause, but also pointed out how it manages to create what I perceive as a benefit to the mode's experience.

Generally speaking, I agree with what you're saying which is why I'd like to point out that aiming center mass with the intent of landing the second or third bullet within a burst into the head is still a form of skillful aiming under the understanding of what's required to land a full burst and achieve a headshot when outside RRR. This isn't terribly different than understanding you have to lead your shots in a projectile-based FPS when firing at longer ranges. With the current H5BR, if an opponent's shields are broken and all that's needed for the kill is a headshot then aiming for the head will still make the most sense because that first bullet will travel where your reticle is pointed -- given that you've got a solid connection to the server.
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I strongly disagree with your perception of the normal H5BR being tied with the Light Rifle. In an evenly matched fight, the Carbine and Light Rifle destroy the H5BR in almost every situation.
In terms of hip-fire RRR they are tied as both have a hip-fire RRR of 30.5 meters or 10 world units. Having the same hip-fire RRR was what I was referring to when I said they were tied. I was not suggesting that their lethality was equal within that range. By the way, the Carbine has a hip-fire RRR of 32 meters or 10.5 world units.
  • The H5BR has an Optimal TTK of ~1.4 seconds (11 bullets or 4 trigger pulls w/ headshot) and a Sub-Optimal TTK of ~1.9 seconds (16 bullets or 6 trigger pulls to the body).
  • The Light Rifle has an Optimal [Hip-Fire] TTK of ~1.2 seconds (4 shots w/ headshot), an Optimal [ADS] TTK of ~1.1 seconds (3 shots w/ headshot), a Sub-Optimal [Hip-Fire] TTK of ~1.6 seconds (5 body shots), and a Sub-Optimal [ADS] TTK of ~1.6 seconds (4 body shots).
  • The Carbine has an Optimal TTK of ~1.2 seconds (7 shots w/ headshot) and a Sub-Optimal TTK of ~1.9 seconds (10 body shots).
Clearly, the Light Rifle and Carbine are more deadly (aka lethal) weapons within the basic H5BR's hip-fire range. This is a reason why I believe the H5BR should be given a better hip-fire range then these two precision weapons and why I advocate for the Long-Barrel H5BR. There would be a range where it received the aim assistance magnetisms while these other two precision weapons would not. Players would need to understand where the Long-Barrel [Recon] H5BR’s strength was and actively manage to engage these precision weapons within it's ideal range when facing them.
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You think that the core BTB experience and traversing of the map is diminished by the BR having increased spread?
I'm a little confused by what you're asking me here. I'll just say that the pre-tuned BR was a cross-map laser which felt pretty good to use, but it negatively impacted the Big Team experience. The final post-tuned BR feels pretty crappy and it gets overshadowed by pretty much every other precision weapon in just about every possible way, but it has managed to improve aspects of the BTB experience.
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I have to again strongly disagree with you. Everyone has a Carbine, Light Rifle, DMR, or H2BR whenever possible... skilled players can cross map kill a fully shielded player easily with these weapons.... not to mention a Hydra or Sniper Rifle.
There are a finite amount of Carbines, LRs, DMRs, or H2BRs to be picked-up on these maps and they have to be actively sought out just like power weapons. This restricts and limits their uses where as everyone automatically spawns with the H5BR. Is it possible that a team could take control of all these weapons and use them to suppress the opposing team into a spawn trap? Sure, but it would require plenty of coordination and skill to do so given the two opposing teams equate out to having fairly similar overall skill.
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The reality is that allowing the starting weapon to be this ineffective is encouraging one sided games and making it easier to spawn trap. Try fighting your way out of a camped spawn Deadlock without grabbing a Carbine. Before the nerf this wasn't an issue.
Again, I agree that the basic H5BR isn't ideal which is why I've been actively advocating for the Long-Barrel variant, but I still think there's a benefit to the Big Team experience by having the standard loadout weapon lose a decent amount of its effectiveness beyond the extended ranges afforded to the Long-Barrel variant. Thus allowing for more map movement freedom.
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The H5BR in its current state has made shooting a Hog gunner or a Ghost driver out of their vehicle so much harder on respawn. The nerf of the H5BR literally made farming in BTB so much worse, which probably encouraged the ridiculous MMR matchmaking restrictions.
I'm sure it has made shooting those within vehicles harder, but that sentiment can also be seen from the flip-side as potentially a good thing. When you say that farming has gotten worse I take it that you mean it happens more often now, correct? I would say it's debatable; though, I doubt it's solely because of the retuned H5BR. I'd argue that it has more to do with normal progression relating to population loss in a title that's ~3 years old. They're constantly tinkering with the matchmaking parameters (often loosening) to ensure search times don't get too ridiculous.

{I'll continue responding later}
We need to change the br back to its original state. No one uses it because it is underpowered and no one can stand the rng gunfights that it brings to an otherwise high skill game. I personally have stopped playing warzone and btb because of the change to the br and i believe the community all agrees that is should be returned to its former glory.
eLantern wrote:
dopesolja wrote:
eLantern wrote:
dopesolja wrote:
IMO. The Stabilization Jets BR sounds like a good option. However, I do think the “random” recoil (which is vertical -- I don’t understand why people say it’s random) brings a little skill gap. You have to control the recoil and your aiming in longer ranges. What I do is aim below the chest in longer ranges to get a more effective kill. I think the best solution is use a Long Barrel BR.

I’ve talked about this before. In BTB, you will have the OG BR range but you have to be better at aiming because of the recoil. I’ve tested it on custom games and it works really well.
To bring the BR in balance with these other weapons, the Stabilization Jets seem better than the Long Barrel.
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I'm sure it has made shooting those within vehicles harder, but that can also be seen from the flip-side as potentially a good thing. When you say that farming has gotten worse I take it that you mean it happens more often now, correct? I would say it's debatable that it's solely because of the H5BR. I'd even argue that it has more to do with normal progression relating to population loss in a title that's ~3 years old. They're constantly tinkering with the matchmaking parameters to ensure search times don't get too ridiculous.

{I'll continue responding later}
We played customs with both BRs and the stabilized jets BR is definitely the better option. Long barrel doesnt solve the problem of consistency, it just gives us the same problem except at farther ranges. The stabilized BR allows for nice, crisp close quarter and mid range fights without being overpowered at long range. Carbine and Lightrifle will still beat it at distance, but the stabilized BR can compete up close with the Lightrifle and beat the carbine in melee fights. It gives each weapon its proper niche and definitely is the way to go in my opinion. After testing, Stabilized BR > Long Barrel BR for me.
I also agree with BR w/ Stabilization Jets for Big Team Battle.
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