Forums / Games / Halo 5: Guardians

BTB Spawntrapping Paradise

OP andiosterfeld

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This is going onfor quite a while but with the decreasing player base it's getting worse.

Big Team Battle has a huge problem with spawntrapping. Every day, it happens more often to me, that me and my teammates get pushed back to our spawn in objective game modes and the opponents dont focus on the objective to win the game and instead spawntrapp or spawnkill us. And who likes wasting 15min beeing shot immidiately after spawn while the enemy controls all the power weapons and the verhicels.

You might say: "Just quit the game then". But it happens so often I probably have to quit every 5th game and for me thats to much.

Of course there are differences between the maps ... but there are so many poorly designed forge maps in BTB it's just annoying.

One example: The map that resembles the pyramid of the Halo controll room. The opponent has a height advantage, has a banshee and a Spartan Laser to destroy your own vehicels and gets an endless supply of sentinel beams to erase shields super fast. If the enemy holds that line there is no chance to fight back if you are not in a bigger team yourself. And thats not the only map which such problems.

Overall I'm someone who sticks to the end of games even if I get spawntrapped (like normally 1 of 100 games for me) but now its just to much. I probably left 3 of my last 10 BTB matches because it was just senseless.

I just wanted to write down my thoughts. They wont change the Maps and Map Balancing anyway.
Would it be possible to provide the names of the BTB of the maps you are referring to? That way the Forgers know what maps need to be revisited. Reasonable and detailed feedback such as what you provided for Ancestor is welcomed (@D4rkDeath). If people were to write down their thoughts and experiences more often, like you just did, it would help Forgers in making those necessary changes. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, it's the first step towards change.

I just wanted to write down my thoughts. They wont change the Maps and Map Balancing anyway.
The nice thing about Forge is that the community can patch up the maps and with some convincing influence the BTB playlist. We are hoping to get the BTB playlist to be refreshed one more time with fixes.
This is going onfor quite a while but with the decreasing player base it's getting worse.

Big Team Battle has a huge problem with spawntrapping. Every day, it happens more often to me, that me and my teammates get pushed back to our spawn in objective game modes and the opponents dont focus on the objective to win the game and instead spawntrapp or spawnkill us. And who likes wasting 15min beeing shot immidiately after spawn while the enemy controls all the power weapons and the verhicels.

You might say: "Just quit the game then". But it happens so often I probably have to quit every 5th game and for me thats to much.

Of course there are differences between the maps ... but there are so many poorly designed forge maps in BTB it's just annoying.

One example: The map that resembles the pyramid of the Halo controll room. The opponent has a height advantage, has a banshee and a Spartan Laser to destroy your own vehicels and gets an endless supply of sentinel beams to erase shields super fast. If the enemy holds that line there is no chance to fight back if you are not in a bigger team yourself. And thats not the only map which such problems.

Overall I'm someone who sticks to the end of games even if I get spawntrapped (like normally 1 of 100 games for me) but now its just to much. I probably left 3 of my last 10 BTB matches because it was just senseless.

I just wanted to write down my thoughts. They wont change the Maps and Map Balancing anyway.
I have noticed this myself and have an update planned for the map already. The sentinal beam has a setting fix ready so there would only be one on the map. A splinter grenade was placed in the bases for the off chance of vehicle pinning. This is waiting for a potential update from 343. However, the hydra and plasma pistol are in/near the bases to push out and a teleporter on a covered path to quickly counter the top. Ancestor has a tug of war design that pushes and pulls back and forth.
Thank you for the honest non bashing feedback, it goes much further than the opposite. I am in contact with most of the btb forgers and constructive feedback is good. I watch the forums pretty regularly.
My thoughts on and problems with ANCESTOR:

If you get pushed back in to your base/spawn it's really hard or nearly impossible to get out if the opponent realises that they have the option to spawntrapp your team (in objective type game modes). Both teams spawns are in those half oen caves that have only 3 escape routes. The first is the "open" side near the cliff/vista. Yes there is cover for shots from opponents on the pyramid, but the banshee still can completly dominate this side. The next route is through the middle via the mancannon ... where you get shot while still in the air. The last route, near the entrance to the pyramid also doesnt feature good cover and you will get shot while trying to reach the entrance to the pyramid or the underpass. And the power position on the top is nearly unobtainable if the opponent locks it. Even if you reach the teleporter the just put a guy behind it so that they can assasinate you as soon as your teleported there.

So if they hold the centre of the map - the power position - the get the Banshee, the Spartan Laser and can shot you from the high ground.

The Hydra doesnt help alot because you have to leave the cave to get a chance to shoot the Banshee or guys on the pyramid.

It's actually hard to even take cover in the small tunnel behind the spawn leading to the "garage" of each team because they - if the have control - just attack you with the forerunner turret and the Wraith as well as the Ghost.

And Ancestor is selected by the game way more often than other maps ... you cant deny that. It feels like every third game is Ancestor (although it probably isnt) but older maps like the Hang em High remake appear rarely.

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What I think: Honestly get rid of Ancestor. If not here are some ideas
Remove the Banshee and change the Wraiths to Warthogs or special Warthogs. Remove the sentinel beam and also the Gravity Hammer because its useless. Give both teams a Scattershot near their base so the can enter the way to the top of the pyramid more confident. Create a save passage to the pyramid from each teams base/spawn and maybe add a lift from the underpass to the top of the pyramid. I dont know, just some things the might help.

There are also other maps, like the relatively new city themed map (the one with the round building in its center) that I would like to give feedback like this later.
TimeDipper wrote:
We are hoping to get the BTB playlist to be refreshed one more time with fixes.
D4rkDeath wrote:
This is waiting for a potential update from 343.
By any chance, do you have any idea how likely a BTB update is? Has 343 said anything about intending to make another BTB refresh? If so, I have some thoughts about what should be done for that.
I said that would happen about Ancestor when it was first released, but got the it doesn't happen in testing response or something like that. If we're talking about maps, look at Dispelled. The Wasps ruin that map because they spawn too fast and there aren't enough good counters on fast respawn times to take them out. Similar issue with Viking and the Gauss Hog. Used to also be the Banshee, but that got nerfed too much.

I think one issue is I don't think anyone is taking social into account. They're making maps to be competitive which is great when you get two evenly matched teams, but most of the time that doesn't happen and so you get snowball games with multiple vehicles on the map that can dominate a team too easily. I've been saying the stuff in my post for good while now and I don't think it's ever going to be fixed. I get that it's 'social' so it's expected to happen, but with some adjustments on a few maps it could be lessened to a greater extent.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
I think one issue is I don't think anyone is taking social into account. They're making maps to be competitive which is great when you get two evenly matched teams, but most of the time that doesn't happen and so you get snowball games with multiple vehicles on the map that can dominate a team too easily. I've been saying the stuff in my post for good while now and I don't think it's ever going to be fixed. I get that it's 'social' so it's expected to happen, but with some adjustments on a few maps it could be lessened to a greater extent.
I'm not sure what you mean by "making the maps to be competitive"? Are you suggesting reducing the amount of vehicles on the maps, in order to make it harder for coordinated teams to stomp solo players? But I don't think lowering the amount of vehicles even further would be a good solution for the problem of uneven matching in BTB. Many of the BTB maps barely have any vehicles outside of a token Ghost and Warthog already, which makes it feel a lot like standard Slayer.

Personally, I don't like that at all. If anything, I think BTB should move towards being "heavier" with more vehicle play. I mean, vehicle play is the main appeal of BTB in the first place isn't it? BTB Heavies was really popular in other games, and I don't recall anyone asking for it to have less vehicles in order to make it harder for teams to have map control.
I'm not sure what you mean by "making the maps to be competitive"? Are you suggesting reducing the amount of vehicles on the maps, in order to make it harder for coordinated teams to stomp solo players?
No, I'm just saying that I think they're trying to make the maps balanced under ideal conditions like even teams playing against each other which isn't a bad thing, but it doesn't always work in the wild because it's social matching. If they took uneven skill matching into account more, we might get better adjustments to the weapons and their placements on the map.
TimeDipper wrote:
We are hoping to get the BTB playlist to be refreshed one more time with fixes.
D4rkDeath wrote:
This is waiting for a potential update from 343.
By any chance, do you have any idea how likely a BTB update is? Has 343 said anything about intending to make another BTB refresh? If so, I have some thoughts about what should be done for that.
A group of BTB forgers are getting some fixes and a few maps together to throw 343’s direction. Takes time and testing, but hopefully it lands right.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
I said that would happen about Ancestor when it was first released, but got the it doesn't happen in testing response or something like that. If we're talking about maps, look at Dispelled. The Wasps ruin that map because they spawn too fast and there aren't enough good counters on fast respawn times to take them out. Similar issue with Viking and the Gauss Hog. Used to also be the Banshee, but that got nerfed too much.

I think one issue is I don't think anyone is taking social into account. They're making maps to be competitive which is great when you get two evenly matched teams, but most of the time that doesn't happen and so you get snowball games with multiple vehicles on the map that can dominate a team too easily. I've been saying the stuff in my post for good while now and I don't think it's ever going to be fixed. I get that it's 'social' so it's expected to happen, but with some adjustments on a few maps it could be lessened to a greater extent.
I’m mostly happy how Ancestor turned out, I feel it has fewer issues than others, however I’m not opposed to make it better with the right collective feedback. The design is tug of war with the intent of pushing out to mid and into the opponents base with the opponents having the tools and flanks to push back out. I admit that it requires fairly balanced teams to achieve that and searching with the balanced option on it mostly gets the desired result. A fairly coordinated team can overcome an uncoordinated team quite easily. That is something that isn’t out of reach for any map though. Ancestor offers flank routes that are protected to get inside, spawns in the structure, tier 2 anti vehicle weapons very close and a teleporter very close. I can see imbalance creating a poor experience, however the options do exist. Also, getting the splaser up top isn’t an easy feat. I feel the few tweaks I have made, if they go in, help balance the issues I have dug up. Lukepowa, you generally provide good criticisms and feedback that I know I and others have taken a few good nuggets from. I feel that Halo 5’s btb is miles above some previous iterations, though it has its flaws.
Ancestor I always thought was a very well designed map in its layout, it’s very different than all the other setups in h5, but the spawns and sandbox setup isn’t correct.

Trying to get a pull almost always involve a huge spawn trap. That respawn is nasty on this map for pulling flags. IMO this spawn setup is ideal for bomb. Those huge chaotic fights trying to score a bomb, much like traffic jam or eagle square. Some fun team fights trying to score in assault on those maps.

As mentioned before the sentinel beam spawns way to fast. And something also not mentioned is the laser, laser respawn doesn’t match the flow of the game in ancestor. I constantly see multiple lasers on this map. And no vehicles in play.

I would like to see a minute longer respawn on laser just for this map or maybe even laser taken out entirely. Sentinel beams moved to the tunnels in both bases and caster removed. But only 1 sentinel beam per side. New one doesn’t spawn until old one despawns.

Camo switched to OS.

The wraiths really have a rough go of it on this map, which is to bad becuase a good wraith user can have a lot of fun with the levels on that map.

I dont see the banshee as a necessity.

If spwans could be tweaked in flag to something that works that works a little better (I don’t know the answer here) or slayer where they flip every 5 seconds.

My 2 cents.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
No, I'm just saying that I think they're trying to make the maps balanced under ideal conditions like even teams playing against each other which isn't a bad thing, but it doesn't always work in the wild because it's social matching. If they took uneven skill matching into account more, we might get better adjustments to the weapons and their placements on the map.
I see what you mean. Sorry for misunderstanding. I've be in favor of that, too.
D4rkDeath wrote:
A group of BTB forgers are getting some fixes and a few maps together to throw 343’s direction. Takes time and testing, but hopefully it lands right.
I hope so too. A BTB refresh would be really nice
Spawntrapping has always been an issue in Halo games. The worst i've ever seen is any map on CE. And Halo Reach Sword Base spawn trap BS.
D4rkDeath wrote:
TimeDipper wrote:
We are hoping to get the BTB playlist to be refreshed one more time with fixes.
D4rkDeath wrote:
This is waiting for a potential update from 343.
By any chance, do you have any idea how likely a BTB update is? Has 343 said anything about intending to make another BTB refresh? If so, I have some thoughts about what should be done for that.
A group of BTB forgers are getting some fixes and a few maps together to throw 343’s direction. Takes time and testing, but hopefully it lands right.
If you need testers please PM me
D4rkDeath wrote:
TimeDipper wrote:
We are hoping to get the BTB playlist to be refreshed one more time with fixes.
D4rkDeath wrote:
This is waiting for a potential update from 343.
By any chance, do you have any idea how likely a BTB update is? Has 343 said anything about intending to make another BTB refresh? If so, I have some thoughts about what should be done for that.
A group of BTB forgers are getting some fixes and a few maps together to throw 343’s direction. Takes time and testing, but hopefully it lands right.
If you need testers please PM me
I usually say when I’m testing from Twitter, follow me @D4rkDeath19
Good to know about the map. Do you know if the Avalanche remake would be part of the refresh if it happens or is it still not gonna be used because it's not magnum starts in matchmaking?
LUKEPOWA wrote:
Good to know about the map. Do you know if the Avalanche remake would be part of the refresh if it happens or is it still not gonna be used because it's not magnum starts in matchmaking?
I think a lot is up in the air, I really only know what we are pulling to do, however I know we forgers have had it in testing lobbies a lot when we have tested our own changes. Halo 5’s sandbox and systems are hard to balance and that map would struggle just like some others. It wasn’t built for this sandbox, but I wouldn’t rule it out. There are already a lot of remake/remix nostalgic maps, I’d like to see new. It’s been interesting researching the feedback in the forums, everyone seems to think they know how to make every map perfect, but have 0 files in their forge files. At the end of the day, EVERY map is going to have an imperfection, but that goes back to any FPS. Avalanche would and does suffer from these imbalances. Look in my files, I have 6 visible files of Ancestor from first inspiration to the final products, but only a couple of those were realistic builds. My co-forger weeeeemann and I have probably close to 1000 hours combined doing Ancestor, with 65-70ish playtests of the final few builds. Ancestor and many maps play Mag starts better, but that never came to fruition either. Sorry this became a book, but I wanted to respond in a way that would answer anything pertaining to map development and what it takes to try to balance. I’ve looked for hours and hours on these forums trying to find feedback on all the btb maps, it’s so widespread that it can be hard to determine good and bad. Sometimes making a few changes creates other problems. Finalizing anything usually results in finding the least amount of evils. So ultimately, avalanche is a fun map that hosts fun options and nostalgia, it could totally happen, but should it? People will likely want it to play as good as they remember, but even finding good balance on it in H5’s sandbox, it is going to come with its issues. Haha, I hope I haven’t created confusion while trying to be transparent. If this community really wants a btb refresh, when these changes and maps start to get pushed on YouTube or just the forums, it will fall flat if people aren’t supportive. Stay tuned.
I myself am I btb spawntrapper and I think me and my team have pissed on all of yall
My thoughts on and problems with ANCESTOR:

If you get pushed back in to your base/spawn it's really hard or nearly impossible to get out if the opponent realises that they have the option to spawntrapp your team (in objective type game modes). Both teams spawns are in those half oen caves that have only 3 escape routes. The first is the "open" side near the cliff/vista. Yes there is cover for shots from opponents on the pyramid, but the banshee still can completly dominate this side. The next route is through the middle via the mancannon ... where you get shot while still in the air. The last route, near the entrance to the pyramid also doesnt feature good cover and you will get shot while trying to reach the entrance to the pyramid or the underpass. And the power position on the top is nearly unobtainable if the opponent locks it. Even if you reach the teleporter the just put a guy behind it so that they can assasinate you as soon as your teleported there.

So if they hold the centre of the map - the power position - the get the Banshee, the Spartan Laser and can shot you from the high ground.

The Hydra doesnt help alot because you have to leave the cave to get a chance to shoot the Banshee or guys on the pyramid.

It's actually hard to even take cover in the small tunnel behind the spawn leading to the "garage" of each team because they - if the have control - just attack you with the forerunner turret and the Wraith as well as the Ghost.
D4rkDeath wrote:
I’m mostly happy how Ancestor turned out, I feel it has fewer issues than others, however I’m not opposed to make it better with the right collective feedback. The design is tug of war with the intent of pushing out to mid and into the opponents base with the opponents having the tools and flanks to push back out. I admit that it requires fairly balanced teams to achieve that and searching with the balanced option on it mostly gets the desired result. A fairly coordinated team can overcome an uncoordinated team quite easily. That is something that isn’t out of reach for any map though. Ancestor offers flank routes that are protected to get inside, spawns in the structure, tier 2 anti vehicle weapons very close and a teleporter very close. I can see imbalance creating a poor experience, however the options do exist. Also, getting the splaser up top isn’t an easy feat. I feel the few tweaks I have made, if they go in, help balance the issues I have dug up. Lukepowa, you generally provide good criticisms and feedback that I know I and others have taken a few good nuggets from. I feel that Halo 5’s btb is miles above some previous iterations, though it has its flaws.
Please read my post above. If the opponent is acitvly spawntrapping you cannot leave the spawn cave. You HAVE to walk a few steps in the open and thats enough for a coordinated team to get you. Even if once in a while someone breaks through they alone dont have a chance against 4-5 players on the top. As I said the teleports are actually another danger as there are guys waiting there to assasinate enemies. The Tier 2 anti vehicle weapon is the Hydra which need time to look on and you have to walk out of the spawn cave so you'll end up shot before the Hydra even locks unto the banshee e.g.
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