Forums / Games / Halo 5: Guardians

BTB Spawntrapping Paradise

OP andiosterfeld

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I don't see this happening a whole lot. I have played almost 1500 matches in BTB, and this has happened to me maybe 2-3 times. I am not really sure what you are wanting done. I think the balancing on most of the maps are just fine, and besides no map changes will be able to help you deal with a well coordinated team.

Ancestor is one of my favorite maps. I love all the levels and routes that you can take. I can't think of what if anything needs to be changed.
DaxSeven09 wrote:
Ancestor is one of my favorite maps. I love all the levels and routes that you can take. I can't think of what if anything needs to be changed.
Ancestor just so happens to be one of my more tolerable BTB maps. You just need to get map control in order to succeed.
My thoughts on and problems with ANCESTOR:

If you get pushed back in to your base/spawn it's really hard or nearly impossible to get out if the opponent realises that they have the option to spawntrapp your team (in objective type game modes). Both teams spawns are in those half oen caves that have only 3 escape routes. The first is the "open" side near the cliff/vista. Yes there is cover for shots from opponents on the pyramid, but the banshee still can completly dominate this side. The next route is through the middle via the mancannon ... where you get shot while still in the air. The last route, near the entrance to the pyramid also doesnt feature good cover and you will get shot while trying to reach the entrance to the pyramid or the underpass. And the power position on the top is nearly unobtainable if the opponent locks it. Even if you reach the teleporter the just put a guy behind it so that they can assasinate you as soon as your teleported there.

So if they hold the centre of the map - the power position - the get the Banshee, the Spartan Laser and can shot you from the high ground.

The Hydra doesnt help alot because you have to leave the cave to get a chance to shoot the Banshee or guys on the pyramid.

It's actually hard to even take cover in the small tunnel behind the spawn leading to the "garage" of each team because they - if the have control - just attack you with the forerunner turret and the Wraith as well as the Ghost.
D4rkDeath wrote:
I’m mostly happy how Ancestor turned out, I feel it has fewer issues than others, however I’m not opposed to make it better with the right collective feedback. The design is tug of war with the intent of pushing out to mid and into the opponents base with the opponents having the tools and flanks to push back out. I admit that it requires fairly balanced teams to achieve that and searching with the balanced option on it mostly gets the desired result. A fairly coordinated team can overcome an uncoordinated team quite easily. That is something that isn’t out of reach for any map though. Ancestor offers flank routes that are protected to get inside, spawns in the structure, tier 2 anti vehicle weapons very close and a teleporter very close. I can see imbalance creating a poor experience, however the options do exist. Also, getting the splaser up top isn’t an easy feat. I feel the few tweaks I have made, if they go in, help balance the issues I have dug up. Lukepowa, you generally provide good criticisms and feedback that I know I and others have taken a few good nuggets from. I feel that Halo 5’s btb is miles above some previous iterations, though it has its flaws.
Please read my post above. If the opponent is acitvly spawntrapping you cannot leave the spawn cave. You HAVE to walk a few steps in the open and thats enough for a coordinated team to get you. Even if once in a while someone breaks through they alone dont have a chance against 4-5 players on the top. As I said the teleports are actually another danger as there are guys waiting there to assasinate enemies. The Tier 2 anti vehicle weapon is the Hydra which need time to look on and you have to walk out of the spawn cave so you'll end up shot before the Hydra even locks unto the banshee e.g.
I read it.
DaxSeven09 wrote:
I don't see this happening a whole lot. I have played almost 1500 matches in BTB, and this has happened to me maybe 2-3 times. I am not really sure what you are wanting done. I think the balancing on most of the maps are just fine, and besides no map changes will be able to help you deal with a well coordinated team.

Ancestor is one of my favorite maps. I love all the levels and routes that you can take. I can't think of what if anything needs to be changed.
Thank you!
Yeah, the fact that the majority of maps in this gametype are forged is pretty shallow, like viking is the only good one
Yeah, the fact that the majority of maps in this gametype are forged is pretty shallow, like viking is the only good one
Yeah, probably because its a remake of a real map. Same for the Halo 3 DLC map with the two bases and the rocket silos. Even the Wreckage reimagination is quite ok.

EDIT / OVERALL:
I'm really suprised how productive and constructive this discussion is. Did not expect that, shows that Halo still has an awesome Fanbase
Just to be clear - spawn trapping is the ability to kill people as they spawn. What I believe the ideology here is more “pinning”. Where a team locks down certain points of a map to manipulate base spawning and control the map. That isn’t an exploit, that is a strategy. However, I am testing a spawning fix to aleviate this some to remove pressure from unbalanced teams. I believe a team can reap the rewards from pinning to a degree and it is something that can be done strategically on any map.
D4rkDeath wrote:
Just to be clear - spawn trapping is the ability to kill people as they spawn. What I believe the ideology here is more “pinning”. Where a team locks down certain points of a map to manipulate base spawning and control the map. That isn’t an exploit, that is a strategy. However, I am testing a spawning fix to aleviate this some to remove pressure from unbalanced teams. I believe a team can reap the rewards from pinning to a degree and it is something that can be done strategically on any map.
Even if your right, its just impossible to escape the positon on this map. And yes, as a player that spawns you dont get killed right away >80% of the time. But there are some spawns where you get shot immidiately.
D4rkDeath wrote:
Just to be clear - spawn trapping is the ability to kill people as they spawn. What I believe the ideology here is more “pinning”. Where a team locks down certain points of a map to manipulate base spawning and control the map. That isn’t an exploit, that is a strategy. However, I am testing a spawning fix to aleviate this some to remove pressure from unbalanced teams. I believe a team can reap the rewards from pinning to a degree and it is something that can be done strategically on any map.
Even if your right, its just impossible to escape the positon on this map. And yes, as a player that spawns you dont get killed right away >80% of the time. But there are some spawns where you get shot immidiately.
I have fixes in place for this map, I guess I don’t know what to say to you. Ancestor has been widely accepted, however I don’t think a map is ever finished. I have lowered the rocks on the caves so you can’t really see into the base unless you are on the first tier. I have added some spawns and have playtested this a ton. Ultimately I have addressed the few problems the map has. Seeing that you prefer my map be removed from the playlist altogether, I don’t really know what I can do for you, I’m perfectly fine if you dislike Ancestor that much, but I don’t find it to be constructive feedback to just kill it. Hopefully my changes make it in and you have a better experience because of them.
D4rkDeath wrote:
D4rkDeath wrote:
Just to be clear - spawn trapping is the ability to kill people as they spawn. What I believe the ideology here is more “pinning”. Where a team locks down certain points of a map to manipulate base spawning and control the map. That isn’t an exploit, that is a strategy. However, I am testing a spawning fix to aleviate this some to remove pressure from unbalanced teams. I believe a team can reap the rewards from pinning to a degree and it is something that can be done strategically on any map.
Even if your right, its just impossible to escape the positon on this map. And yes, as a player that spawns you dont get killed right away >80% of the time. But there are some spawns where you get shot immidiately.
I have fixes in place for this map, I guess I don’t know what to say to you. Ancestor has been widely accepted, however I don’t think a map is ever finished. I have lowered the rocks on the caves so you can’t really see into the base unless you are on the first tier. I have added some spawns and have playtested this a ton. Ultimately I have addressed the few problems the map has. Seeing that you prefer my map be removed from the playlist altogether, I don’t really know what I can do for you, I’m perfectly fine if you dislike Ancestor that much, but I don’t find it to be constructive feedback to just kill it. Hopefully my changes make it in and you have a better experience because of them.
I think ancestor is a pretty fair map. It's really really hard to score on CTF...but I think slayer is balanced.

On CTF, some suggestions (If you're taking them...if not please disregard):
Perhaps remove the banshee and make this area more open. Hog play on this map is very difficult with the current tight config next to the banshee spawn
Change laser to Rockets
Add a sniper with a small clip (maybe no extra ammo) in the back cave. It might be helpful in covering a flag pull down the tunnel
D4rkDeath wrote:
D4rkDeath wrote:
Just to be clear - spawn trapping is the ability to kill people as they spawn. What I believe the ideology here is more “pinning”. Where a team locks down certain points of a map to manipulate base spawning and control the map. That isn’t an exploit, that is a strategy. However, I am testing a spawning fix to aleviate this some to remove pressure from unbalanced teams. I believe a team can reap the rewards from pinning to a degree and it is something that can be done strategically on any map.
Even if your right, its just impossible to escape the positon on this map. And yes, as a player that spawns you dont get killed right away >80% of the time. But there are some spawns where you get shot immidiately.
I have fixes in place for this map, I guess I don’t know what to say to you. Ancestor has been widely accepted, however I don’t think a map is ever finished. I have lowered the rocks on the caves so you can’t really see into the base unless you are on the first tier. I have added some spawns and have playtested this a ton. Ultimately I have addressed the few problems the map has. Seeing that you prefer my map be removed from the playlist altogether, I don’t really know what I can do for you, I’m perfectly fine if you dislike Ancestor that much, but I don’t find it to be constructive feedback to just kill it. Hopefully my changes make it in and you have a better experience because of them.
I think ancestor is a pretty fair map. It's really really hard to score on CTF...but I think slayer is balanced.

On CTF, some suggestions (If you're taking them...if not please disregard):
Perhaps remove the banshee and make this area more open. Hog play on this map is very difficult with the current tight config next to the banshee spawn
Change laser to Rockets
Add a sniper with a small clip (maybe no extra ammo) in the back cave. It might be helpful in covering a flag pull down the tunnel
I am always open for suggestions! I really try to listen at the least and make tweaks if I can reproduce the problem!
Don't think the map needs a sniper and knowing 343 they'll probably make it have full ammo. A map where I think the snipers need less ammo is Traffic Jam, but I don't know if you talk to that map creator or not.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
Don't think the map needs a sniper and knowing 343 they'll probably make it have full ammo. A map where I think the snipers need less ammo is Traffic Jam, but I don't know if you talk to that map creator or not.
No no, snipers perform incredibly well on Ancestor, so much so that it’s an awful experience for everyone else (haha). In fact Ancestor plays better with mag starts (as do most btb maps), the only precision weapons on the map are carbines and hopefully soon kinetic brs. All weapon pads follow a pattern, snipers are on 3 min timers with the default for the respective sniper and everything else that is tier 3 is on a 2 min. This allows things like the banshee (3 mins) to be off set from a spartan laser on respawn so it isn’t just deleted. The weapon pads in btb are strictly on this cycle, changing timers for pads or tier 3 vehicles usually results in choosing something else. I am not in contact with Traffic Jam’s creator btw.
D4rkDeath wrote:
LUKEPOWA wrote:
Don't think the map needs a sniper and knowing 343 they'll probably make it have full ammo. A map where I think the snipers need less ammo is Traffic Jam, but I don't know if you talk to that map creator or not.
No no, snipers perform incredibly well on Ancestor, so much so that it’s an awful experience for everyone else (haha). In fact Ancestor plays better with mag starts (as do most btb maps), the only precision weapons on the map are carbines and hopefully soon kinetic brs. All weapon pads follow a pattern, snipers are on 3 min timers with the default for the respective sniper and everything else that is tier 3 is on a 2 min. This allows things like the banshee (3 mins) to be off set from a spartan laser on respawn so it isn’t just deleted. The weapon pads in btb are strictly on this cycle, changing timers for pads or tier 3 vehicles usually results in choosing something else. I am not in contact with Traffic Jam’s creator btw.
What's your opinion on the reworked BR for BtB vs Pistol starts? I prefer the BR over Pistol just because it's better for teamshots on vehicles, but I see the arguments for Magnum starts as well
D4rkDeath wrote:
LUKEPOWA wrote:
Don't think the map needs a sniper and knowing 343 they'll probably make it have full ammo. A map where I think the snipers need less ammo is Traffic Jam, but I don't know if you talk to that map creator or not.
No no, snipers perform incredibly well on Ancestor, so much so that it’s an awful experience for everyone else (haha). In fact Ancestor plays better with mag starts (as do most btb maps), the only precision weapons on the map are carbines and hopefully soon kinetic brs. All weapon pads follow a pattern, snipers are on 3 min timers with the default for the respective sniper and everything else that is tier 3 is on a 2 min. This allows things like the banshee (3 mins) to be off set from a spartan laser on respawn so it isn’t just deleted. The weapon pads in btb are strictly on this cycle, changing timers for pads or tier 3 vehicles usually results in choosing something else. I am not in contact with Traffic Jam’s creator btw.
What's your opinion on the reworked BR for BtB vs Pistol starts? I prefer the BR over Pistol just because it's better for teamshots on vehicles, but I see the arguments for Magnum starts as well
I kind of see both sides, if they get the BR right sure, but mag starts always seems to let people move around the map better. I think if kinetic brs were available more in btb with mag starts, that would be ideal for maps that require more team shooting. Or it might encourage players to better secure the proper counter weapons.

FYI this thread has gone off topic, I won’t be responding to it anymore, I think the point was made.
D4rkDeath wrote:
LUKEPOWA wrote:
I said that would happen about Ancestor when it was first released, but got the it doesn't happen in testing response or something like that. If we're talking about maps, look at Dispelled. The Wasps ruin that map because they spawn too fast and there aren't enough good counters on fast respawn times to take them out. Similar issue with Viking and the Gauss Hog. Used to also be the Banshee, but that got nerfed too much.

I think one issue is I don't think anyone is taking social into account. They're making maps to be competitive which is great when you get two evenly matched teams, but most of the time that doesn't happen and so you get snowball games with multiple vehicles on the map that can dominate a team too easily. I've been saying the stuff in my post for good while now and I don't think it's ever going to be fixed. I get that it's 'social' so it's expected to happen, but with some adjustments on a few maps it could be lessened to a greater extent.
I’m mostly happy how Ancestor turned out, I feel it has fewer issues than others, however I’m not opposed to make it better with the right collective feedback. The design is tug of war with the intent of pushing out to mid and into the opponents base with the opponents having the tools and flanks to push back out. I admit that it requires fairly balanced teams to achieve that and searching with the balanced option on it mostly gets the desired result. A fairly coordinated team can overcome an uncoordinated team quite easily. That is something that isn’t out of reach for any map though. Ancestor offers flank routes that are protected to get inside, spawns in the structure, tier 2 anti vehicle weapons very close and a teleporter very close. I can see imbalance creating a poor experience, however the options do exist. Also, getting the splaser up top isn’t an easy feat. I feel the few tweaks I have made, if they go in, help balance the issues I have dug up. Lukepowa, you generally provide good criticisms and feedback that I know I and others have taken a few good nuggets from. I feel that Halo 5’s btb is miles above some previous iterations, though it has its flaws.
I feel the best way to improve the map is to get rid of the pits in the back of spawns. When there’s a spawn trap, people just spawn in there, and the ways to get out are usually covered. Then you have no chance to escape because the enemy controls the structure/phramid and has all the high ground. So, (I’m not a genius when it comes to map creation or balance, but hear me out), I think it’d be best if some how, some way, there’s another route or another floor in the spawn so you can attempt to flank the enemy or get a little higher ground w/ cover. The enemy will still have the highest point, so it wouldn’t be unfair, but there needs to be an easier way to counter that. This counter shouldn’t a be a power- position though, just enough to help push back to mid. There’s also the chance of snipers spawns in each base (idc which sniper) but this way, even in the spawn pit, you could take put enemies taking out your teammates from the pyramid. If an enemy pushes to take your sniper, spawns would be push forward a
ittle more, and not in the very back, so that it’s a challenge to take another sniper. Please respond, and tell me what you think about this possible (and novice) improvement advice.

Danke,
P-51
Hi Jack11 wrote:
D4rkDeath wrote:
LUKEPOWA wrote:
I said that would happen about Ancestor when it was first released, but got the it doesn't happen in testing response or something like that. If we're talking about maps, look at Dispelled. The Wasps ruin that map because they spawn too fast and there aren't enough good counters on fast respawn times to take them out. Similar issue with Viking and the Gauss Hog. Used to also be the Banshee, but that got nerfed too much.

I think one issue is I don't think anyone is taking social into account. They're making maps to be competitive which is great when you get two evenly matched teams, but most of the time that doesn't happen and so you get snowball games with multiple vehicles on the map that can dominate a team too easily. I've been saying the stuff in my post for good while now and I don't think it's ever going to be fixed. I get that it's 'social' so it's expected to happen, but with some adjustments on a few maps it could be lessened to a greater extent.
I’m mostly happy how Ancestor turned out, I feel it has fewer issues than others, however I’m not opposed to make it better with the right collective feedback. The design is tug of war with the intent of pushing out to mid and into the opponents base with the opponents having the tools and flanks to push back out. I admit that it requires fairly balanced teams to achieve that and searching with the balanced option on it mostly gets the desired result. A fairly coordinated team can overcome an uncoordinated team quite easily. That is something that isn’t out of reach for any map though. Ancestor offers flank routes that are protected to get inside, spawns in the structure, tier 2 anti vehicle weapons very close and a teleporter very close. I can see imbalance creating a poor experience, however the options do exist. Also, getting the splaser up top isn’t an easy feat. I feel the few tweaks I have made, if they go in, help balance the issues I have dug up. Lukepowa, you generally provide good criticisms and feedback that I know I and others have taken a few good nuggets from. I feel that Halo 5’s btb is miles above some previous iterations, though it has its flaws.
I feel the best way to improve the map is to get rid of the pits in the back of spawns. When there’s a spawn trap, people just spawn in there, and the ways to get out are usually covered. Then you have no chance to escape because the enemy controls the structure/phramid and has all the high ground. So, (I’m not a genius when it comes to map creation or balance, but hear me out), I think it’d be best if some how, some way, there’s another route or another floor in the spawn so you can attempt to flank the enemy or get a little higher ground w/ cover. The enemy will still have the highest point, so it wouldn’t be unfair, but there needs to be an easier way to counter that. This counter shouldn’t a be a power- position though, just enough to help push back to mid. There’s also the chance of snipers spawns in each base (idc which sniper) but this way, even in the spawn pit, you could take put enemies taking out your teammates from the pyramid. If an enemy pushes to take your sniper, spawns would be push forward a
ittle more, and not in the very back, so that it’s a challenge to take another sniper. Please respond, and tell me what you think about this possible (and novice) improvement advice.

Danke,
P-51
Since you asked nicely, I will oblige. The rocks into the bases have been lowered some to make it so players can’t see into the bases as well from the second tier. This puts them at a more even playing field if fighting from the lower tier of the structure. It was discovered that on Blue side you could see better into the cave route than on Red, this has been fixed. Spawning is better now that players need to be on the first tier to look into the base making the lines of site better for protected spawning. Very coordinated teams can still pin players to one side of the map, however players can spawn on or around the structure a bit more often giving them countering opportunities.

Snipers were on this map originally. They really break the game play, it’s not what they can do defensively from the base, it’s what they can do offensively. Snipers heavily increase the success of the pinning tactic.

I have been testing these changes thoroughly and with the Assault game type. If 343 takes these updated maps, hopefully you will see Assault on Ancestor (Assault in the Control Room)! I feel Assault has become Ancestor’s strongest game type and fully utilizes all areas of the map.
The scenario of spawn trapping youre describing has been a part of Halo since CE. Imagine playing blood gultch and you're trapped inside the small base with like 4 scorpions surrounding you btfo everytime you spawns.

Awww the memories...
The fact 343i NEVER made a proper BTB map for halo 5, means they can't really improve that and have acknowledgement how the forgers done their spawns right, I don't really bother with BTB myself (Cause it's just a clan paradise to dominate normal players trying to enjoy a big battle) but my only recommendation is to just move onto a new gamemode.
D4rkDeath wrote:
Hi Jack11 wrote:
D4rkDeath wrote:
LUKEPOWA wrote:
I said that would happen about Ancestor when it was first released, but got the it doesn't happen in testing response or something like that. If we're talking about maps, look at Dispelled. The Wasps ruin that map because they spawn too fast and there aren't enough good counters on fast respawn times to take them out. Similar issue with Viking and the Gauss Hog. Used to also be the Banshee, but that got nerfed too much.

I think one issue is I don't think anyone is taking social into account. They're making maps to be competitive which is great when you get two evenly matched teams, but most of the time that doesn't happen and so you get snowball games with multiple vehicles on the map that can dominate a team too easily. I've been saying the stuff in my post for good while now and I don't think it's ever going to be fixed. I get that it's 'social' so it's expected to happen, but with some adjustments on a few maps it could be lessened to a greater extent.
I’m mostly happy how Ancestor turned out, I feel it has fewer issues than others, however I’m not opposed to make it better with the right collective feedback. The design is tug of war with the intent of pushing out to mid and into the opponents base with the opponents having the tools and flanks to push back out. I admit that it requires fairly balanced teams to achieve that and searching with the balanced option on it mostly gets the desired result. A fairly coordinated team can overcome an uncoordinated team quite easily. That is something that isn’t out of reach for any map though. Ancestor offers flank routes that are protected to get inside, spawns in the structure, tier 2 anti vehicle weapons very close and a teleporter very close. I can see imbalance creating a poor experience, however the options do exist. Also, getting the splaser up top isn’t an easy feat. I feel the few tweaks I have made, if they go in, help balance the issues I have dug up. Lukepowa, you generally provide good criticisms and feedback that I know I and others have taken a few good nuggets from. I feel that Halo 5’s btb is miles above some previous iterations, though it has its flaws.
I feel the best way to improve the map is to get rid of the pits in the back of spawns. When there’s a spawn trap, people just spawn in there, and the ways to get out are usually covered. Then you have no chance to escape because the enemy controls the structure/phramid and has all the high ground. So, (I’m not a genius when it comes to map creation or balance, but hear me out), I think it’d be best if some how, some way, there’s another route or another floor in the spawn so you can attempt to flank the enemy or get a little higher ground w/ cover. The enemy will still have the highest point, so it wouldn’t be unfair, but there needs to be an easier way to counter that. This counter shouldn’t a be a power- position though, just enough to help push back to mid. There’s also the chance of snipers spawns in each base (idc which sniper) but this way, even in the spawn pit, you could take put enemies taking out your teammates from the pyramid. If an enemy pushes to take your sniper, spawns would be push forward a
ittle more, and not in the very back, so that it’s a challenge to take another sniper. Please respond, and tell me what you think about this possible (and novice) improvement advice.

Danke,
P-51
Since you asked nicely, I will oblige. The rocks into the bases have been lowered some to make it so players can’t see into the bases as well from the second tier. This puts them at a more even playing field if fighting from the lower tier of the structure. It was discovered that on Blue side you could see better into the cave route than on Red, this has been fixed. Spawning is better now that players need to be on the first tier to look into the base making the lines of site better for protected spawning. Very coordinated teams can still pin players to one side of the map, however players can spawn on or around the structure a bit more often giving them countering opportunities.

Snipers were on this map originally. They really break the game play, it’s not what they can do defensively from the base, it’s what they can do offensively. Snipers heavily increase the success of the pinning tactic.

I have been testing these changes thoroughly and with the Assault game type. If 343 takes these updated maps, hopefully you will see Assault on Ancestor (Assault in the Control Room)! I feel Assault has become Ancestor’s strongest game type and fully utilizes all areas of the map.
Sounds awesome man! Let’s just hope 343 pulls through quickly with those map updates.
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