Forums / Games / Halo 5: Guardians

[Locked] How can Spartan Locke be a better character?

OP DEADLYNESS500

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jayman567 wrote:
jayman567 wrote:
Not much given that Locke as he exists is already a fine character. It is pretty telling that many complaints against Locke are that he is generic yet the Halo community is able to, and seems fine, with Chief barely registering a personality until Halo 4, yet these same fans through a fit with Halo 4 because Chief didn't spout nothing but one-liners. I have many problems with the campaign, but Osiris wasn't one of them. You all want to sit there and tell me you didn't notice Locke's no nonsense approach to doing his job and skill to take down Jul 'Mdama ('Mdama's death being a weak point with the story notwithstanding)? You want to sit there and tell me you missed the insight in Locke's ideas on honor being something you have to earn and then see how he feels he has to prove himself to the Arbiter fully knowing his past as an ONI agent will make that difficult? You want to sit there and tell me you don't admire his professionalism in the face of going after a legendary Spartan-II team and not being a hot-head or submissive? You want to sit there and tell me you don't at the least give him props for his professionalism on an independent colony he knows full well the UNSC isn't welcome on thus acts polite whenever the opportunity arises because he understand violence and bravado aren't always the answers? Hell, you want to sit there and tell me you can't see his trust, loyalty and, concern for his team when he allows Tanaka to guide Osiris on Meridian because she knows that colonies mindset, or when he urges his team to ignore Cortana's juvenile ravings because he knows full well what she is doing, or when he is there to save Buck twice? Come on, can't anybody admire that even when Chief kicks his -Yoink- we see Locke is able to bounce back and risk his life to save Chief from Cortana's clutches?

There is a lot to Locke that people simply miss because they don't want to pay attention or think anymore harder than processing catchphrases.
This is how I feel to be honest, people are so scared that Master Chief will be replaced that they are hating a character who is exactly like or better than Master Chief.
I also disagree with this. Chief may have been quiet in the games, but this doesn't mean we couldn't come to care for him. Especially in Halo 2 when him and Cortana spoke more and it seemed far more personal to him than it did in the first game.

I've never thought replacing chief is a bad idea. But to attempt to do so by a man who says "every target is just another target, Buck," is really just discomforting. I don't want to play as a drone. Locke seemingly doesn't care AT ALL when his squad turns on him and some of them die in Nightfall. With chief, we see subtle actions that we don't see anywhere else.

For example, when Johnson dies, chief is CLEARLY upset by it. Cortana turns around and says "Chief, I'm so sorry..." and all you see is chiefs hand Twitch slightly. Was it anger or sadness? We don't know. But we know it wasn't his usual behavior.

Chief does have development even if he doesn't say much.
  1. In Nightfall you have to pay close attention to Lockes facial expressions (You can see he feels regret when Ramos lets Estrin die, and he was clearly upset about Gains and Hundley being hospitalised, even Randall's death had an effect on him) plus him not really showing any emotion of the betrayal is him just simply getting on with the mission, which is something many like Chief for he gets on with the mission and griefs latter when no ones around.
  2. Chief also follows orders without question most of the time, in mission 2 of Halo 5 a Blue team member will ask what ONI was up to and Chief responds we don't ask, he shares this same trait of just get on with the mission, they are both yes men unless when it becomes personal.
  3. Chief does have a lot of subtle character development but Locke had more in 1 game than Chief did in his original 3. (Put aside his past with Arbiter, learned to be polite around Sloan, tried to reason with Chief before trying to capture him) it wasn't until Halo 3 where Chief had to make any sort of emotional compromise of any kind.
Difference between chief and Locke as it pertains to ONI, Locke worked for ONI. He doesn't question them in spite of knowing the much darker and grim reality of their existence. Chief knows this as well but to a lesser extent. He sees them as giving his life purpose through the spartan program. Locke literally assassinated people for a living.

Subtle development is nice. But again, he had an entire movie and very little (if anything) could be taken away from that movie as far as Locke is concerned. He probably has more lines in that entire movie than chief did in all of Halo 1-4.
Buck: He's lovable the way he basically complains because Dare screwed him and ran and then makes a few one liners, appearing in four missions of a game was just great. Oh and the reach cameo was just such character development

Locke: A mini series (which was great if short), plus all the terminals and devolpment in 5 but is a shallow boring character. I think he's ok.
Make it personal. That's what was done with the Master Chief, when he had to rescue Cortana in H3 and then get her help in H4. It was something that helped us (at least, me) connect with him. For Locke in H5, he's just following orders, and nothing happens to him that is really personal, and therefore we don't get to see much character depth or development. Sure, he cares about his teammates, and has put the past behind him as far as Thel 'Vadam/the Arbiter is concerned, but he doesn't really grow as a character. I can give the Master Chief in Halo: CE a pass due to the fact that that was the very first game, and was probably originally designed as being a stand-alone game/experiment. But for the fifth main-title game in a franchise...we expect there to be more work done on the main characters. So there was no excuse for 343i to try to make Locke be the next calm, collected, quiet Master Chief-type character. And showing him flashily take down Jul 'Mdama in the first level as a cutscene doesn't really add anything to his actual character, his personality. It just shows he's skilled in combat, but that's about it.

I feel that there is no reason given for me to care about Locke. That's the problem.

This is the difference between him and the Arbiter in Halo 2. I actually liked the Arbiter and cared about his plight from the get-go (regardless of people here claiming "everyone hated the Arbiter, and H2, at first!"). He showed development in the story, and him starting high and being smacked down to heretic-level within the first cutscene was a great move by the story-tellers to show that there is something at stake here for this new character. And even as an Arbiter, he starts to show doubts, and finally comes to accept that the Covenant is wrong, when before he was a loyal and skilled Shipmaster. Does Locke show any of this development? Not to me, he doesn't. And, no, I am not arguing that Locke needs to have a story that's copy-pasted off of the Arbiter's; I'm just giving examples of what made the Arbiter interesting as a character.
To be honest, I already like Locke. He is a soldier fighting the good fight. Locke has the potential to become a major Badass and an awesome character. It'd be pretty cool if they pit Osiris vs Blue Team in a friendly but sassy competition based on respect.
Well he's a spy right? Make him James Bond but American its pretteh obvious famalan
Same way people came to like the Arbiter: time.
or actually make a Character... Ouch I burned the mindless drone that was Locke.
Make him like buck
Same way people came to like the Arbiter: time.
or actually make a Character... Ouch I burned the mindless drone that was Locke.
The Arbiter was more of a character than Locke. :P
Make him kill Palmer, because idk she got another -Yoink- time.
Rustyky wrote:
have him do some memorable fun stuff.
.............. Like take down Jul M'dama with just a knife, rescue the Arbiter, and crack Master -Yoinkin'- Chief's visor with a backhand -Yoink!- slap?

-_-

He also played soccer with Buck? What the hell more do you guys want? Everyone hated the Arbiter in Halo 2 at first too, you know. lol
Meh... others may entertain this notion, but it won't sell to me for an instant. I remember reading the internet buzz and hatred of Arbiter when people found out they'd be playing him in H2. Although there were some people commenting they only wanted to play as Chief, the vast majority that I remember reading basically said "I want to kill Covenant, not play as one,". The major backlash was aimed at that aspect. I should know, I was part of it... although I decided to remain open minded about it. I made a few "not so sure I like the idea" comments, but I wasn't as outraged as most, about it.

You can't just say "Everyone hated Arbiter, but came to love him in time" and apply that to this situation with no context and "because people hate change" doesn't cut it. I didn't like the idea of playing as Arbiter either at first... but as I played his role throughout H2, I came to understand him as a character. This happened within the course of the game for me BTW. Locke is what... 8 months and counting... and I'm still waiting to like him. What Arbiter accomplished stood on its own. His role stood on its own and he didn't need to be sent after Chief to validate how badass he is. Simple as that.

By the time H2 ended... I had already come to accept Arbiter's role... and his character, in the story. What he had to overcome was nothing short of monumental. Everything he had become, everything stood for was brought crashing down around him. He was branded as a heretic and stripped of all that made him who he was. He was spared one 'certain death' only to be thrown at another, via suicide mission. He had to watch as his entire race was cast from greatness by the very prophets who promised their salvation. He and his race were then betrayed by those same prophets. His very faith was brought into question... and on top of the shame he had already endured, he had to come to grips with the fact that he had been living... and fighting to defend... a completely deluded lie. Yet he found a way to persevere. He wasn't even on the same side of the war. He had to swallow his pride to join "us".

BTW, he only had half a game to do that... not 12 out of 15 missions... just saying.

Locke has yet to show me half of the fortitude Arbiter has. Even being tasked with bringing in "The Spartan" doesn't impress me (by way of comparison) at a spiritual/emotional level. He knows what ONI is all about, he knows his role as a Spartan... as a person... and did we even learn anything of his faith? Geez, I can't remember. Compared to Arbiter, Locke had it easy... and it shows... gaudily.
Rustyky wrote:
have him do some memorable fun stuff.
.............. Like take down Jul M'dama with just a knife, rescue the Arbiter, and crack Master -Yoinkin'- Chief's visor with a backhand -Yoink!- slap?
-_-
He also played soccer with Buck? What the hell more do you guys want? Everyone hated the Arbiter in Halo 2 at first too, you know. lol
Well ya but he isnt a lovable character like arby or buck. He lacks the qualitys. Sure he did some impressive stuff but his character stays the same.
What part of "Everyone hated the Arbiter in Halo 2 at first too" didn't you get? People don't like new characters. Change is weird. We don't like it. They take time to grow on us. There wasn't anything particularly lovable about Arbiter in Halo 2 ... just "wait, where's Chief and why am I an alien now? wtf?"

Now sure, Arbiter and Buck are Keith David and Nathan Fillion respectively, so you can't help but love them. But there isn't anything wrong with Locke. He's got more character and dialog in his one game than Chief did in CE, H2, and H3 combined. Hell, you know how many lines of dialogue Chief spoke to the Arbiter in Halo 3? Who he spent half the game with? One word. One word the entire game. He said "worse" in response to Arbiter saying "what is it, more Brutes?" At least Locke engaged the Sangheili in conversation.

Rustyky wrote:
Rustyky wrote:
HAVE
HIM
CRASH
A
BANSHEE
Tanaka splattered a Banshee in the opening cutscene. Didn't know that was possible, but she smashed right through it. Does that count? lol
Completely agree.
develop his character then have him die to save chief. But first fire Bryan reed.
Locke has good characteristics, 343i just needs to do a better job of bringing them to the surface. He was only a soldier in Halo 5, the story rarely got personal with him. Fireteam Osiris deserves a spinoff game, where they don't play the majority role in a conflict that is not their fight.
I'd buy that in a heartbeat. Would love a novel too though.
Same way people came to like the Arbiter: time.
What was not to like about the Arbiter in Halo 2? Him being betrayed over and over and his self hatred due to his own failures created a great deal of sympathy right off the bat.

Locke has zero in game characteristics. What we see is a stereotypical tuff guy without any problematics forcefully being ''''awesome'''' all the time. There is zero stuff to relate to or sympathise on. Actually, none of the spartans besides Buck have any character at all.

Playing as Osiris basically meant looking at a group of obnoxious friends at a distance who think they are the -Yoink- and don't aknowledge other people outside their lil club, that you are not a part of or want to be a part of.

Honestly, I cannot see how this image will ever change. Whichever writer who can turn this around deserves an own song.
OP still hasn't given any good reasons why they hate Locke. Actually, pretty much nobody has.

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Rustyky wrote:
have him do some memorable fun stuff.
.............. Like take down Jul M'dama with just a knife, rescue the Arbiter, and crack Master -Yoinkin'- Chief's visor with a backhand -Yoink!- slap?

-_-

He also played soccer with Buck? What the hell more do you guys want? Everyone hated the Arbiter in Halo 2 at first too, you know. lol
Meh... others may entertain this notion, but it won't sell to me for an instant. I remember reading the internet buzz and hatred of Arbiter when people found out they'd be playing him in H2. Although there were some people commenting they only wanted to play as Chief, the vast majority that I remember reading basically said "I want to kill Covenant, not play as one,". The major backlash was aimed at that aspect. I should know, I was part of it... although I decided to remain open minded about it. I made a few "not so sure I like the idea" comments, but I wasn't as outraged as most, about it.

You can't just say "Everyone hated Arbiter, but came to love him in time" and apply that to this situation with no context and "because people hate change" doesn't cut it. I didn't like the idea of playing as Arbiter either at first... but as I played his role throughout H2, I came to understand him as a character. This happened within the course of the game for me BTW. Locke is what... 8 months and counting... and I'm still waiting to like him. What Arbiter accomplished stood on its own. His role stood on its own and he didn't need to be sent after Chief to validate how badass he is. Simple as that.

By the time H2 ended... I had already come to accept Arbiter's role... and his character, in the story. What he had to overcome was nothing short of monumental. Everything he had become, everything stood for was brought crashing down around him. He was branded as a heretic and stripped of all that made him who he was. He was spared one 'certain death' only to be thrown at another, via suicide mission. He had to watch as his entire race was cast from greatness by the very prophets who promised their salvation. He and his race were then betrayed by those same prophets. His very faith was brought into question... and on top of the shame he had already endured, he had to come to grips with the fact that he had been living... and fighting to defend... a completely deluded lie. Yet he found a way to persevere. He wasn't even on the same side of the war. He had to swallow his pride to join "us".

BTW, he only had half a game to do that... not 12 out of 15 missions... just saying.

Locke has yet to show me half of the fortitude Arbiter has. Even being tasked with bringing in "The Spartan" doesn't impress me (by way of comparison) at a spiritual/emotional level. He knows what ONI is all about, he knows his role as a Spartan... as a person... and did we even learn anything of his faith? Geez, I can't remember. Compared to Arbiter, Locke had it easy... and it shows... gaudily.
This is essentially what I stated in my previous post (though I actually loved the idea of playing from the Covenant POV right off the bat). This is what really sets the Arbiter/Thel 'Vadam apart from Jameson Locke. And it boils down to the story and character writers, as well. There's far more depth in H2 than H5 in many regards. And that, in turn, helps develop interesting characters.
The one thing I will say about Locke, however: not once during Halo 3 did Master Chief ever suffer the embarrassment of needing to be revived in front of the Arbiter.
I think that was mostly because he would end up dead in front of the Arbiter.
KaneXX12 wrote:
OP still hasn't given any good reasons why they hate Locke. Actually, pretty much nobody has.
Let's see... I believe your post was asking for at least one good reason, which couldn't be because he's a S-IV or because he's going to replace Chief, because you said a "good answer". I can already see why people didn't bother.

Pretty easy to keep shifting one's idea of a good answer to fit the replies. I could give you several reasons why I (dislike, not) hate Locke that fit the criteria you set, but why would I bother? A "Good answer" is about as subjective as you can get.
Only if he were to die would he be better.... But remember for the mistake 343 made with this game. I did not wait 3 years to play a Halo game with no John-117. It's basically a side game like ODST, but terrible. Let's pray he and Palmer are forgot in a comic somewhere soon.
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