Skip to main content

Forums / Games / Halo 5: Guardians

[Locked] My argument for why Sprint belongs in Halo

OP The Kishinev

  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. ...
  7. 12
Its only natural to have things like sprint in videogames these days.

Everyone who disagrees needs to leave gaming immediately. You are holding back this industry.
I'm for sprint and I don't agree with this. Just putting that out there so no one gets the wrong impression.
Then leave. You are the cancer killing this industry.
You are giving no good reason to add the mechanic other than it's what's popular. We might as well add back personal loadouts with this logic.
We should add loadouts back. It was stupid to remove them in the first place.
Naqser wrote:
I'm on my phone.

Well, I'd say campaign structure is of big importance regarding wether or not sprint is "desired". Distance between fights, how to get to them and so on. I don't see it being needed in campaign as it can be structured in such a way where you'd hardly sprint, while still allowing breathers.

For BTB I'd say the impact of Sprint is somewhat less severe than on smaller maps, but again those maps can be structured in such a way that allow fast map traversal without the use of vehicles. I for intance would like to see Teleporters made into Portals akin to those in Portal, or have both. Then there are man cannons and shortcuts. Why not add conveyor belts like those on Elognated and Colossus?

Then the variables. First off I'd like to adress your scenarios. I would assume anyone in a sniper tower would stay there because it's often a place of importance, power position if you will. You often have good view and some cover. Compare it to a regular room with many entrances and exits and you do not have an equally good position, I wouldn't expect anyone to stay there. So it doesn't matter as the comparisons aren't actually that equal.

Then about variables, true, the more you have the less predictable it gets, but I would have to disagree on it being a good thing. You cant't have too few variables otherwise it becomes too easy, but too many and you have players guessing instead of making educated predictions. At some point players stop thinking and just go with whatever happens, you may stop chasing players and just run around aimlessly because you can't very well predict their movements as maps and rooms are so "open". Increasing variables will start decreasing their respective value. When you play you yourself want to play unpredictable, the less predictable you make the game the less focus players need to put on being unpredictable, which is a skill of its own. Personally I've had major difficulties playing against new players who are good at moving, aiming and shooting, simply because they aren't familiar with the maps and come from the most unexpected directions.

One last thing, being experienced is part of your skill. It's your gathered knowledge you use in order to maximise your efficiency.

Good effort but I don't really see it changing anything, neither do I think my post will.
It isn't needed in campaign but it is most certainly welcome. As for BTB, is putting teleporters and mancannons everywhere good game design? It's a solution but it's a bit counter intuitive. Big maps are there to be grand and explored. Putting teleporters everywhere takes you out of that experience and begins to undermine the point of playing on a huge map.

Having a massive amount of variables is not always a good thing, true. But I don't think Halo has too much. A great example of having too many variables is COD. You can boost around with no cooldown, players have any gun they want, an assortment of perks and loadouts that literally change gameplay mechanics. It's a random mess and I didn't get the same feeling playing Halo 5.

Being experienced is a skill I suppose. I feel like it is more comparable to remembering locations on the map and spawn locations though.
Man cannons etc are part of map design, putting them everywhere will most likely result in a bad map, but that doesn't mean you can't create big maps which play well with them. You don't want them everywhere, you want them where you think you need them in order to provide the map with a good flow.

Now you're talking player variables which they can choose and in that way be unpredictable and use those variables. Initially it was map variables. I'd say each map presents different variables, wouldn't you? Of course any player action like perks or AAs which allow further variables in a map to exist, such as a jetpack, then again, less predictable and more variables. However, going back to maps only. I don't think maps should provide unpredictability, they should provide options for players to play unpredictably without being frustrating for the others.

Even remembering locations and timers is a skill, thing is that many things become second nature and you do not think of them as something that's obvioisly needed to win. Or that's my point of view atleast.
Naqser wrote:
Naqser wrote:
I'm on my phone.

Well, I'd say campaign structure is of big importance regarding wether or not sprint is "desired". Distance between fights, how to get to them and so on. I don't see it being needed in campaign as it can be structured in such a way where you'd hardly sprint, while still allowing breathers.

For BTB I'd say the impact of Sprint is somewhat less severe than on smaller maps, but again those maps can be structured in such a way that allow fast map traversal without the use of vehicles. I for intance would like to see Teleporters made into Portals akin to those in Portal, or have both. Then there are man cannons and shortcuts. Why not add conveyor belts like those on Elognated and Colossus?

Then the variables. First off I'd like to adress your scenarios. I would assume anyone in a sniper tower would stay there because it's often a place of importance, power position if you will. You often have good view and some cover. Compare it to a regular room with many entrances and exits and you do not have an equally good position, I wouldn't expect anyone to stay there. So it doesn't matter as the comparisons aren't actually that equal.

Then about variables, true, the more you have the less predictable it gets, but I would have to disagree on it being a good thing. You cant't have too few variables otherwise it becomes too easy, but too many and you have players guessing instead of making educated predictions. At some point players stop thinking and just go with whatever happens, you may stop chasing players and just run around aimlessly because you can't very well predict their movements as maps and rooms are so "open". Increasing variables will start decreasing their respective value. When you play you yourself want to play unpredictable, the less predictable you make the game the less focus players need to put on being unpredictable, which is a skill of its own. Personally I've had major difficulties playing against new players who are good at moving, aiming and shooting, simply because they aren't familiar with the maps and come from the most unexpected directions.

One last thing, being experienced is part of your skill. It's your gathered knowledge you use in order to maximise your efficiency.

Good effort but I don't really see it changing anything, neither do I think my post will.
It isn't needed in campaign but it is most certainly welcome. As for BTB, is putting teleporters and mancannons everywhere good game design? It's a solution but it's a bit counter intuitive. Big maps are there to be grand and explored. Putting teleporters everywhere takes you out of that experience and begins to undermine the point of playing on a huge map.

Having a massive amount of variables is not always a good thing, true. But I don't think Halo has too much. A great example of having too many variables is COD. You can boost around with no cooldown, players have any gun they want, an assortment of perks and loadouts that literally change gameplay mechanics. It's a random mess and I didn't get the same feeling playing Halo 5.

Being experienced is a skill I suppose. I feel like it is more comparable to remembering locations on the map and spawn locations though.
Man cannons etc are part of map design, putting them everywhere will most likely result in a bad map, but that doesn't mean you can't create big maps which play well with them. You don't want them everywhere, you want them where you think you need them in order to provide the map with a good flow.

Now you're talking player variables which they can choose and in that way be unpredictable and use those variables. Initially it was map variables. I'd say each map presents different variables, wouldn't you? Of course any player action like perks or AAs which allow further variables in a map to exist, such as a jetpack, then again, less predictable and more variables. However, going back to maps only. I don't think maps should provide unpredictability, they should provide options for players to play unpredictably without being frustrating for the others.

Even remembering locations and timers is a skill, thing is that many things become second nature and you do not think of them as something that's obvioisly needed to win. Or that's my point of view atleast.
I agree with everything you say here. I feel like maps should be made without mancannons and lifts, or at least with as few of them as possible. I think teleporters should be removed altogether though. Save them for forge and customs but they shouldn't be in matchmaking maps.

Also: I was talking about player variables from the start. When all you can do is jog, crouch and jump, your options are limited to things that cater to those mechanics such as stairs, ramps, doors and large windows.
Naqser wrote:
Naqser wrote:
I'm on my phone.

Well, I'd say campaign structure is of big importance regarding wether or not sprint is "desired". Distance between fights, how to get to them and so on. I don't see it being needed in campaign as it can be structured in such a way where you'd hardly sprint, while still allowing breathers.

For BTB I'd say the impact of Sprint is somewhat less severe than on smaller maps, but again those maps can be structured in such a way that allow fast map traversal without the use of vehicles. I for intance would like to see Teleporters made into Portals akin to those in Portal, or have both. Then there are man cannons and shortcuts. Why not add conveyor belts like those on Elognated and Colossus?

Then the variables. First off I'd like to adress your scenarios. I would assume anyone in a sniper tower would stay there because it's often a place of importance, power position if you will. You often have good view and some cover. Compare it to a regular room with many entrances and exits and you do not have an equally good position, I wouldn't expect anyone to stay there. So it doesn't matter as the comparisons aren't actually that equal.

Then about variables, true, the more you have the less predictable it gets, but I would have to disagree on it being a good thing. You cant't have too few variables otherwise it becomes too easy, but too many and you have players guessing instead of making educated predictions. At some point players stop thinking and just go with whatever happens, you may stop chasing players and just run around aimlessly because you can't very well predict their movements as maps and rooms are so "open". Increasing variables will start decreasing their respective value. When you play you yourself want to play unpredictable, the less predictable you make the game the less focus players need to put on being unpredictable, which is a skill of its own. Personally I've had major difficulties playing against new players who are good at moving, aiming and shooting, simply because they aren't familiar with the maps and come from the most unexpected directions.

One last thing, being experienced is part of your skill. It's your gathered knowledge you use in order to maximise your efficiency.

Good effort but I don't really see it changing anything, neither do I think my post will.
It isn't needed in campaign but it is most certainly welcome. As for BTB, is putting teleporters and mancannons everywhere good game design? It's a solution but it's a bit counter intuitive. Big maps are there to be grand and explored. Putting teleporters everywhere takes you out of that experience and begins to undermine the point of playing on a huge map.

Having a massive amount of variables is not always a good thing, true. But I don't think Halo has too much. A great example of having too many variables is COD. You can boost around with no cooldown, players have any gun they want, an assortment of perks and loadouts that literally change gameplay mechanics. It's a random mess and I didn't get the same feeling playing Halo 5.

Being experienced is a skill I suppose. I feel like it is more comparable to remembering locations on the map and spawn locations though.
Man cannons etc are part of map design, putting them everywhere will most likely result in a bad map, but that doesn't mean you can't create big maps which play well with them. You don't want them everywhere, you want them where you think you need them in order to provide the map with a good flow.

Now you're talking player variables which they can choose and in that way be unpredictable and use those variables. Initially it was map variables. I'd say each map presents different variables, wouldn't you? Of course any player action like perks or AAs which allow further variables in a map to exist, such as a jetpack, then again, less predictable and more variables. However, going back to maps only. I don't think maps should provide unpredictability, they should provide options for players to play unpredictably without being frustrating for the others.

Even remembering locations and timers is a skill, thing is that many things become second nature and you do not think of them as something that's obvioisly needed to win. Or that's my point of view atleast.
I agree with everything you say here. I feel like maps should be made without mancannons and lifts, or at least with as few of them as possible. I think teleporters should be removed altogether though. Save them for forge and customs but they shouldn't be in matchmaking maps.
Thank you.

One thing I have to add which came to me after reading your response. I don't think maps should be made so that they feature as little man cannons/teleporters as possible, or maps which would need quite a few not made. That would be entirely dependant on what kind of map you want, no? While Chiron and Boarding action may not have been great maps, they were fun in their own little ways. But I understand what you mean though. I'd like to see more alternative map transportation assets like conveyor belts, moving platforms and so forth.

I think Portal Portals would be a good trade with teleporters, then again that's me.
Sprint works in Halo 5, calm ur titts ppl
Instead of jogging away from gunfire only to be killed because I couldn't make it back to cover in time, I can sprint to said cover.
But why not thruster? In this situation it accomplishes the same thing without having a constant speed increase and way to avoid death (among the other ramifications of the inclusion of sprint). Nevermind all the other potential benefits thrusters could bring to advanced map movement and the like.

In old Halo you know someone has to have taken a predictable path like a staircase or a door.

Which is what made knowing things like skill jumps so powerful and rewarding, and part of why Halo Reach and 4 had problems. Neither game supports any significant array of skill jumps and hiding spots, not on the level of maps like Guardian, Epitaph or The Pit from Halo 3. While surprising your opponent was more difficult back then it was also more interesting and rewarding. You had to think about where you were going and how you were getting there instead of just "push button, run away."

And yes, I realize the latter is an oversimplification of the situation but that's what it feels like.

So what do people think? Is this a counter argument that can be taken seriously by the anti-sprint crowd?

It's better than most arguments I've come across here. You actually debated it from a gameplay standpoint and gave sufficient reason as to what it's adding to the game, so kudos for that.

I'm not sure if unpredictability is enough to offset the other negatives sprint brings to the table though, especially when that unpredictability can be created in similar situations via interesting map design and/or the use of Thruster Packs (which lack many of the negative impacts sprint brings to the table.)

Guys, this is a brand new account with no Halo in his service record.

Best not to feed him, he's probably here for the reactions.
Its only natural to have things like sprint in videogames these days.

Everyone who disagrees needs to leave gaming immediately. You are holding back this industry.
yeah like counterstrike, the most played online fps in the world, those slowpokes.
Nicely illustrated pro-sprint argument. You really hit the nail on the head when you said that they have to find a healthy balance that works for small arena multiplayer and larger games/campaign. 343 has said the same thing in the past as well. I think a lot of people forget that Halo isn't just 4v4 multiplayer, that's just one of the many things that Halo has to offer. Sprint may not be ideal for that small arena combat, but it doesn't not work.

Obviously, we have yet to see how all these abilities play out in larger game modes and campaign, but odds are I won't have to spend two minutes jogging across Coagulation just to get sniped when I reach the other side*.

*Anybody who enjoys this situation is nothing short of masochistic.
Sprinting breaks BTB as well. The only mode it works for I non PvP modes.

Vehicles like the Hog and Goose were practically useless in BTB. People ran about instead. And rather than control power areas and choke points, avoiding open areas unless necessary, you could run around there and run off. It means you are no longer punished for wasting vehicles or running off on your own.

The only vehicles that mattered in Halo 4 were the Banshee and Mantis. Maybe it was nicer for lower skilled players to get back out there and die again, but it made getting away in the hog a thing of the past. Games turned in to camp with BR/DMR/LR from spawn and pick off sprinters to the flag, or be the guy sprinting to the flag to get the touch. Slayer games were sprinting around the map with isolated encounters.

With sprint came useless vehicles, with useless vehicles came no need to control laser ir rocket spawn. The games of tug of war became games of hide and seek.
It's no big deal get a life.
Nicely illustrated pro-sprint argument. You really hit the nail on the head when you said that they have to find a healthy balance that works for small arena multiplayer and larger games/campaign. 343 has said the same thing in the past as well. I think a lot of people forget that Halo isn't just 4v4 multiplayer, that's just one of the many things that Halo has to offer. Sprint may not be ideal for that small arena combat, but it doesn't not work.

Obviously, we have yet to see how all these abilities play out in larger game modes and campaign, but odds are I won't have to spend two minutes jogging across Coagulation just to get sniped when I reach the other side*.

*Anybody who enjoys this situation is nothing short of masochistic.
So now you can sprint across and get sniped every minute instead?

If you are walking across the map on your own with no communication or teamwork, of course you were going to end up dead. Sprint will do nothing but speed up that process.
This is probably the first real argument for sprint, that I've seen.
That being said, I respectfully disagree. But If sprint was exclusive to just campaign and big team, I wouldn't have a problem with it then. I think that could also solve the problem between competitive and casual players. Your post even agrees that it's unnecessary for 4v4
Campaign and Big Team Battle are what I'm talking about mostly here. There is no problem at all with being able to sprint in Campaign which is an enormous chunk of what Halo has to offer. Sprint does nothing but enrich the Campaign experience.
Now listen, I get where you're coming from, I really do. But truth be told, I couldn't disagree more.

Campaign is the last place where I want to have sprint interfere with the gameplay.

Remember those arguments people make about elongated maps and breaking flow of combat? They apply to campaign even more.

Contrary to multiplayer, Campaign does not have anything even remotely comparable to "equal starts". In fact, most enemies are more powerful than the player by design. Especially when playing on higher difficulties, you already are at a huge disadvantage compared to the enemy AI in terms of numbers, spacial awareness and aiming abilities. The last thing the player needs is an ability that removes his or her offensive capabilities. Yes, you're faster and technically could escape the enemies easier, but scaling of maps is happening in singleplayer just as well as in multiplayer, so you're crossing vast but empty spaces without cover, negating all benefits of sprint. Also, enemy AI is always designed with peak player abilities in mind, which is why Elites in Reach were able to run just as fast as the player while still retaining the ability to shoot. I don't even want to get started about Teleporter-Knights in 4.

Another thing that sprint "gave us" was increasingly worse level design. Developers and mapmakers need to account for sprint when they're building boundaries of the levels. So most if not all maps are now encapsuled by enormous pits, gigantic walls or - if they're lazy - softkill zones. Now this is already boring as heck, but it also completely diminishes the exploration aspect of Halo, which is ironic, because this seems to be the intention behind larger sized maps and increased player speed. It also creates sever problems with level skips, something that speedrunners and LASO/Mythic players use on a daily basis. Granted, these things are not intended and developers are probably glad that we can no longer get out of bounds that easily, but then again, Halo has had a history with easter eggs being hidden in hard to access parts of the maps, so this is another "core element of traditional Halo" that sprint interferes with, directly or indirectly.

I could really go on a rant here, but I think I made my point clear enough. Also, I'm at work and people start staring...

I want to feel like a spartan.
Me too.
So why the flying f*** can't I shoot while running and have to use the antiquated iron sights instead of the highly sophisticated and technologically superior targeting mechanism that's already pre-built into my armor?
But Halo isn't just an arena shooter. There is so much more to these games. The game can't just be completely designed around one of its many gameplay experiences. It has to find a healthy balance that will work in the entire game. You have to consider the whole package. We all can agree on that, right? Campaign and Big Team Battle are what I'm talking about mostly here.
You say that we should consider the impact on the game as a whole, and then proceed to convince us that sprint should be added despite the negative impact it has on a large portion of the game. Don't you see how contradictory that is?

There is no problem at all with being able to sprint in Campaign which is an enormous chunk of what Halo has to offer. Sprint does nothing but enrich the Campaign experience. There is no problem with sprinting in BTB either.
Disagree with both. Sprint and its obvious effect on elongating the campaign levels is a large part of what keeps me from wanting to replay Halo 4's campaign.

In Halo 5 if you see someone in a room, he could be completely gone in multiple ways by the time you get there. He could have clambered up a ledge or sprinted and thrustered out of a window. Maybe he just walked out the front door? Did he sprint out or walk out? The difference is huge and creates more variables. The game takes longer to stagnate and becomes harder to guess. There's more for you to think about in encounters.
No, there is less for you to think about. Since there are so many places a player could be and you have no way of knowing or predicting with any amount of certainty, you might as well just roll the dice and make a blind guess--let the odds play the game for you. If you were right, great, if you weren't, fine, but either way, you had nothing to do with it, and it was just chance.

Unpredictability should come from players attempting to outwit and outplay each other, like in chess. Chaotic, unstructured, twitch-driven games like Halo 5 and CoD are actually more predictable because the player doesn't have to think to win, and that's something that stays the same every single match. But every person is different. Every person thinks differently, plays differently, uses different strategies, and favors different weapons and positions. There are millions of potential players, and you'll never encounter every single one of them. So allowing the unpredictability to come from the players rather than the game's rules is true replay value. The type of diversity offered in games like Halo 5 and CoD is just manufactured randomness.
Its only natural to have things like sprint in videogames these days.

Everyone who disagrees needs to leave gaming immediately. You are holding back this industry.
I'm for sprint and I don't agree with this. Just putting that out there so no one gets the wrong impression.
Then leave. You are the cancer killing this industry.
You are giving no good reason to add the mechanic other than it's what's popular. We might as well add back personal loadouts with this logic.
We should add loadouts back. It was stupid to remove them in the first place.
troll detected
gethtones wrote:
Its only natural to have things like sprint in videogames these days.

Everyone who disagrees needs to leave gaming immediately. You are holding back this industry.
I'm for sprint and I don't agree with this. Just putting that out there so no one gets the wrong impression.
Then leave. You are the cancer killing this industry.
You are giving no good reason to add the mechanic other than it's what's popular. We might as well add back personal loadouts with this logic.
We should add loadouts back. It was stupid to remove them in the first place.
troll detected
He's already been banned. And he claimed we were holding back the industry. Whilst using multiple accounts and childish arguments. That my friends is true irony.
gethtones wrote:
Its only natural to have things like sprint in videogames these days.

Everyone who disagrees needs to leave gaming immediately. You are holding back this industry.
I'm for sprint and I don't agree with this. Just putting that out there so no one gets the wrong impression.
Then leave. You are the cancer killing this industry.
You are giving no good reason to add the mechanic other than it's what's popular. We might as well add back personal loadouts with this logic.
We should add loadouts back. It was stupid to remove them in the first place.
troll detected
Looks like Horizon got the BANHAMMER. Heh, I love it when trolls get the hammer. Because then I can say BANHAMMER.
Naqser wrote:
I'm on my phone.

Well, I'd say campaign structure is of big importance regarding wether or not sprint is "desired". Distance between fights, how to get to them and so on. I don't see it being needed in campaign as it can be structured in such a way where you'd hardly sprint, while still allowing breathers.

For BTB I'd say the impact of Sprint is somewhat less severe than on smaller maps, but again those maps can be structured in such a way that allow fast map traversal without the use of vehicles. I for intance would like to see Teleporters made into Portals akin to those in Portal, or have both. Then there are man cannons and shortcuts. Why not add conveyor belts like those on Elognated and Colossus?
Good work OP - love how polite and fair you present your arguments.

I've laid out the same idea with campaign and BTB a couple of times already. Josh Holmes mentioned that they wanted a set of skills that would work in ALL of their modes.

Keep in mind that we know very little about campaign and BTB in H5. However there's a good chance based on the many hints that we'll have larger battles on larger maps than ever before.

The counter arguments were like this one from Naqser.
They basically say that with clever design Sprint isn't necessary.

I'll say it again but I disagree.
Design-wise you only want the player to have a vehicle in certain situations but you still want to offer options for mobility at the same time.
And adding man cannons, portals, moving platforms and/or conveyor belts isn't always a good solution or even an option at all.

It's not like Bungie didn't use all of the options in previous Halos - and some walks still felt tiresome especially in comparison to todays much faster paced FPS.

That doesn't mean that it was horrible back then - but a lot of people would agree that Sprint eases the pain as it at least creates the illusion of more action. It also helps that Sprint makes you believe that you did everything you could to get from A to B faster while before you wished that you could do more.

And there is more... if you want to convey a sense of scale (think big campaign battlefield) the limitations of that previous approach become even more obvious.

But that's what next-gen sandbox or exploration focused games will be about - scale.
Finally we have enough horsepower that the very limited battles and playspaces of last gen can grow, illusions of space and scale will be exchanged with real space and real scale.
We have more raw power in the box and the rise of dedicated servers and cloud calculations that also help.

I'm willing to bet that H5's campaign will be less linear as a result. Jump out of that Pelican and explore the dynamic world below you.

Sprint just makes a lot of sense in those scenarios.
Its only natural to have things like sprint in videogames these days.

Everyone who disagrees needs to leave gaming immediately. You are holding back this industry.
Holy ignorance.
In a competitive atmosphere, I feel Halo can do without sprint, but it should be in Campain and BtB.
  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. ...
  7. 12