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[Locked] Remove quit ban from social playlists

OP DieselJimmie

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Mongerty wrote:
IGRS wrote:
C0ldM0use wrote:
I’m sorry but I couldn’t disagree more strongly with this.
There is no lack of logic coming from my side of this argument. I really struggle to see how someone can disagree. It's a social playlist that means nothing, and that's where the story should end.
That’s exactly where the break in logic is — if it means nothing, it doesn’t matter if you get banned.
The logic break occurs when someone says " whale, it doesn't matter if you get banned" despite the player now losing (at minimum) ten minutes of play time. Time means something, and it is not a infinite resource.

Nobody has been able to present a logical argument, point, or remark on as to why there should be a penalty for leaving a social playlist - which as we mentioned supposedly means nothing.

Is there a penalty for leaving a pick up footy game at the local park for whatever reason? Is there a penalty for leaving a party early? Should society put you in time out for leaving social events that are just that, social events?

You don't ban people for quitting a social match, especially when you could just ultimately place persistent quitters in lobbies with players of similar ilk.
Here is a good reason why that I heard someone say once: "Time means something, and it is not a infinite resource."

By quitting in the middle of a match you are also ruining at least 7 other players match. If you quit in the middle of pick up games at the park all of the time, don't expect to be invited back. Same goes for parties. If you are consistent in not showing up or leaving super early, your friends will probably at the very least call you out on it, or maybe forget to tell you about the next gathering. Society absolutely does punish people for flaking on events that are dependent on their participation, even if not directly.
Your entire premise hinges on "all the time" or persistent quitting, which again is not the point. We are talking about one offs/those crap nights where you are playing with a crap group of player, (the OP was talking about team mates team killing/griefing, and not being able to quit social games when team mates have already quit).

You mentioned friends, well in this sense that would be a pre-made. Different story than society and randoms lol. Create a consistent argument instead of using events that are scenarios congruent to the original topic (Dealing with griefers/team killers/ quitters as a solo random in Social as opposed pre mades with friends).

A better example would be showing up to a random pick up game in the park, with people you don't know who then start throwing out rugby tackles in a game of footy, or take the ball off of you despite you being on the same team. A better example in the case of the party would be a social event that you saw on social media, went to and left.

Leaving THOSE situations does not come with societal/personal ramifications (you do not know them or owe them anything). There isn't a punishment for leaving that toxic pick up match, or that one off party - in reality it's what you should do instead of "sticking it out" or thinking about "what if I ruin their fun?". Piss off with that nonsense, you are basically stating that a person should be held hostage for the sake of others fun, even if they do not know them, owe them anything, or will ever see them again.

Your examples require the person to have a pre-commitment to others, which is not the context of what I said, or OP, or anyone else being logical in this thread.
Mongerty wrote:
IGRS wrote:
C0ldM0use wrote:
I’m sorry but I couldn’t disagree more strongly with this.
There is no lack of logic coming from my side of this argument. I really struggle to see how someone can disagree. It's a social playlist that means nothing, and that's where the story should end.
That’s exactly where the break in logic is — if it means nothing, it doesn’t matter if you get banned.
The logic break occurs when someone says " whale, it doesn't matter if you get banned" despite the player now losing (at minimum) ten minutes of play time. Time means something, and it is not a infinite resource.

Nobody has been able to present a logical argument, point, or remark on as to why there should be a penalty for leaving a social playlist - which as we mentioned supposedly means nothing.

Is there a penalty for leaving a pick up footy game at the local park for whatever reason? Is there a penalty for leaving a party early? Should society put you in time out for leaving social events that are just that, social events?

You don't ban people for quitting a social match, especially when you could just ultimately place persistent quitters in lobbies with players of similar ilk.
Here is a good reason why that I heard someone say once: "Time means something, and it is not a infinite resource."

By quitting in the middle of a match you are also ruining at least 7 other players match. If you quit in the middle of pick up games at the park all of the time, don't expect to be invited back. Same goes for parties. If you are consistent in not showing up or leaving super early, your friends will probably at the very least call you out on it, or maybe forget to tell you about the next gathering. Society absolutely does punish people for flaking on events that are dependent on their participation, even if not directly.
Your entire premise hinges on "all the time" or persistent quitting, which again is not the point. We are talking about one offs/those crap nights where you are playing with a crap group of player, (the OP was talking about team mates team killing/griefing, and not being able to quit social games when team mates have already quit).

You mentioned friends, well in this sense that would be a pre-made. Different story than society and randoms lol. Create a consistent argument instead of using events that are scenarios congruent to the original topic (Dealing with griefers/team killers/ quitters as a solo random in Social as opposed pre mades with friends).

A better example would be showing up to a random pick up game in the park, with people you don't know who then start throwing out rugby tackles in a game of footy, or take the ball off of you despite you being on the same team. A better example in the case of the party would be a social event that you saw on social media, went to and left.

Leaving THOSE situations does not come with societal/personal ramifications (you do not know them or owe them anything). There isn't a punishment for leaving that toxic pick up match, or that one off party - in reality it's what you should do instead of "sticking it out" or thinking about "what if I ruin their fun?". Piss off with that nonsense, you are basically stating that a person should be held hostage for the sake of others fun, even if they do not know them, owe them anything, or will ever see them again.

Your examples require the person to have a pre-commitment to others, which is not the context of what I said, or OP, or anyone else being logical in this thread.
If you are receiving bans in Halo 5 matchmaking, it is because you have quit on a consistent basis. I back out of the occasional match due to real life or bad actors in matches too, and I can't remember the last temp ban I received (I literally had to leave a match this morning). The original post in this topic was regarding taking phone calls and going AFK/quitting, which is not the fault of the other players in the match either. "Several of which they weren't the first to quit", not all of them.
OP is calling for the FULL removal of the quit ban for all social matches here, which I have seen in other games and it never turns out well.

Don't get me wrong, I am on board with the removal of the quit ban for matches where someone else has been booted prior, but a blanket removal is what the thread is asking for.

I won't go further into your analogies because I feel like we have lost the point of the main discussion with those. However, I don't like the insinuation that I am not being logical.
I still play Halo 5 occasionally and have played quite a bit over the past few days. I play social playlists exclusively because I don't like to sweat and because they are literally meaningless. I find it absurd that there is still a ban in place for people who leave or lag out, especially when one of their teammates already quit. I've had to quit several times because my Dr. (I'm 8 days post surgery) called, and on several of those I was not the first one who quit. I quit my most recent game because it was a 4-3, where my teammate left after we were getting destroyed. Now I'm banned for 3 hours, and this is the second 3-hour ban I've gotten in the last few days.

A social playlist means nothing. NOTHING. LITERALLY, NOTHING. Banning people for leaving such games makes no sense, and banning them for quitting after their teammates leave is absolutely absurd. All I want is to mess around in H5 again without getting pointless bans. 343i, you're better than this.
I just looked up your 20 most recent Arena games and of those 20 you DNF 4-5 of them. Out of those DNF games you were the sole person who quit, and after you quit your three teammates then went on to lose those games.

This thread was made a few days ago, I didn’t go in-depth enough to check the time stamps for your games etc, but based on the what I just looked at you quit a whole lot. The bans are justified for constant quitting.

Social games may mean nothing to you but that is your opinion, and doesn’t hold any weight on another persons opinion. The bottom line is you let at least 15 other players down in those games by leaving early.

I get life happens, and I know how difficult it can be post op with nothing else to do etc. But the rules are there for everyone’s enjoyment.

I wish you all the best and a speedy recovery.
Mongerty wrote:
IGRS wrote:
C0ldM0use wrote:
I’m sorry but I couldn’t disagree more strongly with this.
There is no lack of logic coming from my side of this argument. I really struggle to see how someone can disagree. It's a social playlist that means nothing, and that's where the story should end.
That’s exactly where the break in logic is — if it means nothing, it doesn’t matter if you get banned.
The logic break occurs when someone says " whale, it doesn't matter if you get banned" despite the player now losing (at minimum) ten minutes of play time. Time means something, and it is not a infinite resource.

Nobody has been able to present a logical argument, point, or remark on as to why there should be a penalty for leaving a social playlist - which as we mentioned supposedly means nothing.

Is there a penalty for leaving a pick up footy game at the local park for whatever reason? Is there a penalty for leaving a party early? Should society put you in time out for leaving social events that are just that, social events?

You don't ban people for quitting a social match, especially when you could just ultimately place persistent quitters in lobbies with players of similar ilk.
Here is a good reason why that I heard someone say once: "Time means something, and it is not a infinite resource."

By quitting in the middle of a match you are also ruining at least 7 other players match. If you quit in the middle of pick up games at the park all of the time, don't expect to be invited back. Same goes for parties. If you are consistent in not showing up or leaving super early, your friends will probably at the very least call you out on it, or maybe forget to tell you about the next gathering. Society absolutely does punish people for flaking on events that are dependent on their participation, even if not directly.
It's a social playlist, it's not possible to "ruin" the game for the other players. It's an insult to everyone's intelligence to assume that they're hurt or bothered by their teammates quitting. Everyone in the lobby understands that the game is social and therefore POINTLESS.
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Mongerty wrote:
IGRS wrote:
C0ldM0use wrote:
I’m sorry but I couldn’t disagree more strongly with this.
There is no lack of logic coming from my side of this argument. I really struggle to see how someone can disagree. It's a social playlist that means nothing, and that's where the story should end.
That’s exactly where the break in logic is — if it means nothing, it doesn’t matter if you get banned.
The logic break occurs when someone says " whale, it doesn't matter if you get banned" despite the player now losing (at minimum) ten minutes of play time. Time means something, and it is not a infinite resource.

Nobody has been able to present a logical argument, point, or remark on as to why there should be a penalty for leaving a social playlist - which as we mentioned supposedly means nothing.

Is there a penalty for leaving a pick up footy game at the local park for whatever reason? Is there a penalty for leaving a party early? Should society put you in time out for leaving social events that are just that, social events?

You don't ban people for quitting a social match, especially when you could just ultimately place persistent quitters in lobbies with players of similar ilk.
Here is a good reason why that I heard someone say once: "Time means something, and it is not a infinite resource."

By quitting in the middle of a match you are also ruining at least 7 other players match. If you quit in the middle of pick up games at the park all of the time, don't expect to be invited back. Same goes for parties. If you are consistent in not showing up or leaving super early, your friends will probably at the very least call you out on it, or maybe forget to tell you about the next gathering. Society absolutely does punish people for flaking on events that are dependent on their participation, even if not directly.
It's a social playlist, it's not possible to "ruin" the game for the other players. It's an insult to everyone's intelligence to assume that they're hurt or bothered by their teammates quitting. Everyone in the lobby understands that the game is social and therefore POINTLESS.
I view ranked matches the same as social in terms of how much I care about the actual outcome (win or loss). They are all equally pointless in that regard. However, I do care if suddenly my game becomes unbalanced because someone couldn't handle a 10 minute commitment.
Mongerty wrote:
Mongerty wrote:
IGRS wrote:
C0ldM0use wrote:
I’m sorry but I couldn’t disagree more strongly with this.
There is no lack of logic coming from my side of this argument. I really struggle to see how someone can disagree. It's a social playlist that means nothing, and that's where the story should end.
That’s exactly where the break in logic is — if it means nothing, it doesn’t matter if you get banned.
The logic break occurs when someone says " whale, it doesn't matter if you get banned" despite the player now losing (at minimum) ten minutes of play time. Time means something, and it is not a infinite resource.

Nobody has been able to present a logical argument, point, or remark on as to why there should be a penalty for leaving a social playlist - which as we mentioned supposedly means nothing.

Is there a penalty for leaving a pick up footy game at the local park for whatever reason? Is there a penalty for leaving a party early? Should society put you in time out for leaving social events that are just that, social events?

You don't ban people for quitting a social match, especially when you could just ultimately place persistent quitters in lobbies with players of similar ilk.
Here is a good reason why that I heard someone say once: "Time means something, and it is not a infinite resource."

By quitting in the middle of a match you are also ruining at least 7 other players match. If you quit in the middle of pick up games at the park all of the time, don't expect to be invited back. Same goes for parties. If you are consistent in not showing up or leaving super early, your friends will probably at the very least call you out on it, or maybe forget to tell you about the next gathering. Society absolutely does punish people for flaking on events that are dependent on their participation, even if not directly.
It's a social playlist, it's not possible to "ruin" the game for the other players. It's an insult to everyone's intelligence to assume that they're hurt or bothered by their teammates quitting. Everyone in the lobby understands that the game is social and therefore POINTLESS.
I view ranked matches the same as social in terms of how much I care about the actual outcome (win or loss). They are all equally pointless in that regard. However, I do care if suddenly my game becomes unbalanced because someone couldn't handle a 10 minute commitment.
With all due respect, that's ridiculous. A game is not a 10-minute commitment in that is not a commitment at all - it is simply a video game. Going further, ranked matches are simply not the same as social ones, and to view them as equal is just flawed. Ranked games carry tangible consequences whereas social games do not. You might be bothered when someone leaves, but I can assure you that the vast majority of us are not. Social games do not carry any significance. If I leave because life happens, that's not me "not handling a 10-minute commitment," it's life happening. That's ignorant and insulting on your part.
Mongerty wrote:
Mongerty wrote:
IGRS wrote:
C0ldM0use wrote:
I’m sorry but I couldn’t disagree more strongly with this.
There is no lack of logic coming from my side of this argument. I really struggle to see how someone can disagree. It's a social playlist that means nothing, and that's where the story should end.
That’s exactly where the break in logic is — if it means nothing, it doesn’t matter if you get banned.
The logic break occurs when someone says " whale, it doesn't matter if you get banned" despite the player now losing (at minimum) ten minutes of play time. Time means something, and it is not a infinite resource.

Nobody has been able to present a logical argument, point, or remark on as to why there should be a penalty for leaving a social playlist - which as we mentioned supposedly means nothing.

Is there a penalty for leaving a pick up footy game at the local park for whatever reason? Is there a penalty for leaving a party early? Should society put you in time out for leaving social events that are just that, social events?

You don't ban people for quitting a social match, especially when you could just ultimately place persistent quitters in lobbies with players of similar ilk.
Here is a good reason why that I heard someone say once: "Time means something, and it is not a infinite resource."

By quitting in the middle of a match you are also ruining at least 7 other players match. If you quit in the middle of pick up games at the park all of the time, don't expect to be invited back. Same goes for parties. If you are consistent in not showing up or leaving super early, your friends will probably at the very least call you out on it, or maybe forget to tell you about the next gathering. Society absolutely does punish people for flaking on events that are dependent on their participation, even if not directly.
It's a social playlist, it's not possible to "ruin" the game for the other players. It's an insult to everyone's intelligence to assume that they're hurt or bothered by their teammates quitting. Everyone in the lobby understands that the game is social and therefore POINTLESS.
I view ranked matches the same as social in terms of how much I care about the actual outcome (win or loss). They are all equally pointless in that regard. However, I do care if suddenly my game becomes unbalanced because someone couldn't handle a 10 minute commitment.
With all due respect, that's ridiculous. A game is not a 10-minute commitment in that is not a commitment at all - it is simply a video games. Going further, ranked matches are simply not the same as social ones, and to view them as equal is just flawed. Ranked games carry tangible consequences whereas social games do not. You might be bothered when someone leaves, but I can assure you that the vast majority of us are not. Social games do not carry any significance.
"Tangible Consequences" is a jpeg next to your name showing a made up rank on a video game.

You can act like you speak for everyone, but they obviously have a ban system in place for a reason. I've literally seen the complaints on MCC from social playlists complaining about too many quitters because that game is too lenient. It's a thing, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.
UK1V wrote:
I still play Halo 5 occasionally and have played quite a bit over the past few days. I play social playlists exclusively because I don't like to sweat and because they are literally meaningless. I find it absurd that there is still a ban in place for people who leave or lag out, especially when one of their teammates already quit. I've had to quit several times because my Dr. (I'm 8 days post surgery) called, and on several of those I was not the first one who quit. I quit my most recent game because it was a 4-3, where my teammate left after we were getting destroyed. Now I'm banned for 3 hours, and this is the second 3-hour ban I've gotten in the last few days.

A social playlist means nothing. NOTHING. LITERALLY, NOTHING. Banning people for leaving such games makes no sense, and banning them for quitting after their teammates leave is absolutely absurd. All I want is to mess around in H5 again without getting pointless bans. 343i, you're better than this.
I just looked up your 20 most recent Arena games and of those 20 you DNF 4-5 of them. Out of those DNF games you were the sole person who quit, and after you quit your three teammates then went on to lose those games.

This thread was made a few days ago, I didn’t go in-depth enough to check the time stamps for your games etc, but based on the what I just looked at you quit a whole lot. The bans are justified for constant quitting.

Social games may mean nothing to you but that is your opinion, and doesn’t hold any weight on another persons opinion. The bottom line is you let at least 15 other players down in those games by leaving early.

I get life happens, and I know how difficult it can be post op with nothing else to do etc. But the rules are there for everyone’s enjoyment.

I wish you all the best and a speedy recovery.
I appreciate the kind words. But again, I'm not gonna stare at the wall for 9 hours in anticipation of my doc maybe calling me. I'm gonna keep playing, and if I have to leave because he calls/get booted for idling/get scared because someone shoots a gun outside (which has happened in my neighborhood), then it's because life is happening. Not putting words in your mouth, but it's funny how people instantly assume I just rage quit.

These bans punish people for no reason. Life happens - people get disconnected, booted, yada yada. Bans should ONLY exist in ranked playlists because there are real consequences ONLY in those playlists. Super fiesta, for example, literally doesn't mean a thing.

It's like shooting someone with a water gun versus a real gun - one has consequences and the other can just be wiped off.
I straight up get your point, I understand the concept behind what you’re saying and if I were in your shoes I would agree with you. The problem is there’s the shoe on the other foot which is the people that dislike when their teammates leave. They don’t know what’s going on at the other end of the screen, they just see someone quit out of the game.

I think the ban system is fair given that the bans start small and incrementally increase over time, so it does to an extent cater for such circumstances, but it does have its limits. The system is also automated and doesn’t know you have real world things happening.

It sucks to be in the position you’re in (believe me I know) but you also have to see it from the perspective of your teammates. To you it’s something incredibly important and must be attended to immediately irregardless of what’s happening. To your teammates they just see someone quit out of a game that they may be taking seriously.

This topic is something that people will argue til they’re blue in the face about, and I think everything that can be said has been. With respect to you and everyone else I think it’s best to agree to disagree on the topic.
UK1V wrote:
UK1V wrote:
I still play Halo 5 occasionally and have played quite a bit over the past few days. I play social playlists exclusively because I don't like to sweat and because they are literally meaningless. I find it absurd that there is still a ban in place for people who leave or lag out, especially when one of their teammates already quit. I've had to quit several times because my Dr. (I'm 8 days post surgery) called, and on several of those I was not the first one who quit. I quit my most recent game because it was a 4-3, where my teammate left after we were getting destroyed. Now I'm banned for 3 hours, and this is the second 3-hour ban I've gotten in the last few days.

A social playlist means nothing. NOTHING. LITERALLY, NOTHING. Banning people for leaving such games makes no sense, and banning them for quitting after their teammates leave is absolutely absurd. All I want is to mess around in H5 again without getting pointless bans. 343i, you're better than this.
I just looked up your 20 most recent Arena games and of those 20 you DNF 4-5 of them. Out of those DNF games you were the sole person who quit, and after you quit your three teammates then went on to lose those games.

This thread was made a few days ago, I didn’t go in-depth enough to check the time stamps for your games etc, but based on the what I just looked at you quit a whole lot. The bans are justified for constant quitting.

Social games may mean nothing to you but that is your opinion, and doesn’t hold any weight on another persons opinion. The bottom line is you let at least 15 other players down in those games by leaving early.

I get life happens, and I know how difficult it can be post op with nothing else to do etc. But the rules are there for everyone’s enjoyment.

I wish you all the best and a speedy recovery.
I appreciate the kind words. But again, I'm not gonna stare at the wall for 9 hours in anticipation of my doc maybe calling me. I'm gonna keep playing, and if I have to leave because he calls/get booted for idling/get scared because someone shoots a gun outside (which has happened in my neighborhood), then it's because life is happening. Not putting words in your mouth, but it's funny how people instantly assume I just rage quit.

These bans punish people for no reason. Life happens - people get disconnected, booted, yada yada. Bans should ONLY exist in ranked playlists because there are real consequences ONLY in those playlists. Super fiesta, for example, literally doesn't mean a thing.

It's like shooting someone with a water gun versus a real gun - one has consequences and the other can just be wiped off.
I straight up get your point, I understand the concept behind what you’re saying and if I were in your shoes I would agree with you. The problem is there’s the shoe on the other foot which is the people that dislike when their teammates leave. They don’t know what’s going on at the other end of the screen, they just see someone quit out of the game.

I think the ban system is fair given that the bans start small and incrementally increase over time, so it does to an extent cater for such circumstances, but it does have its limits. The system is also automated and doesn’t know you have real world things happening.

It sucks to be in the position you’re in (believe me I know) but you also have to see it from the perspective of your teammates. To you it’s something incredibly important and must be attended to immediately irregardless of what’s happening. To your teammates they just see someone quit out of a game that they may be taking seriously.

This topic is something that people will argue til they’re blue in the face about, and I think everything that can be said has been. With respect to you and everyone else I think it’s best to agree to disagree on the topic.
We'll agree to disagree for sure, but I am passionate about this because it only makes the experience worse for those of us who have things happening outside of gaming. It lumps those of us with rational reasons for leaving games with no significance into the same group as those who rage quit and cost people their rankings in competitive playlists.

I'm bumping this thread with an update: I was just booted from a game a full minute after committing suicide (fell off the map) - this resulted in a 10-minute ban. Literally, you cannot make a mistake in this game anymore, and it's a real mystery as to why I keep playing it. Once again, I'm being punished arbitrarily and for absolutely nothing. NOTHING.

These bans are utter BS and have no place in this game outside of kids rage quitting in competitive playlists. 343i, I hope you're happy.
Please stop posting multiple times in a row, OP. You can edit prior posts to add more information or reply to others.

Thanks!
I wonder if all of this disagreement would be solved if we outlined how exactly this system works, so if anyone is in the know it would be nice to hear about it.

So, Op quit some games in the past and now has an extremely low threshold for bans. Does that eventually have a cooldown? If you play 50 games in the next two days and quit once, is that the same as if I quit 1 game but only played 10? Is it based on a percentage of games that are quit, or how many total are quit in a timeframe? Or is it just a cumulative total over the life of the account?

I am still very much against a blanket removal of the quit ban (people will abuse it as another form of griefing). However, if I play 100 games and I quit out of 3 of them due to bad teammates or other quitters, the amount of matches that I DON'T quit out of should absolutely be taken into consideration. From what it sounds like, that threshold may just be too low. I can absolutely understand how it can be frustrating if the leash is that tight.
Saying that playing social means *nothing* and therefore shouldn't have any rules is the most self-serving load of junk I've ever heard.

Just because you want to quit all the time doesn't mean that it doesn't affect other people's enjoyment of the game.
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Please stop posting multiple times in a row, OP. You can edit prior posts to add more information or reply to others.

Thanks!
I'll do what I want, thanks. It's impossible to respond to everyone properly otherwise.
This attitude is what gets you banned. Your opinion is yours and that’s fine — but the vast majority of people do care when people quit social matches.

This is backed up with years of data, not a single person’s viewpoint. You agree to the terms of the game when you start playing matchmaking.

Furthermore — as others have said, there is no difference in ranked vs social. Social is ranked as well, the rank is just hidden. Actually, in ranked — if your teammate quits you can quit without any extra penalty so you could argue quitting matters less in ranked.

And again (like several people have brought up) — if you’re getting banned you’re quitting a lot. Leaving here and there to attend to real life isn’t going to get you banned.
Mongerty wrote:
I wonder if all of this disagreement would be solved if we outlined how exactly this system works, so if anyone is in the know it would be nice to hear about it.

So, Op quit some games in the past and now has an extremely low threshold for bans. Does that eventually have a cooldown? If you play 50 games in the next two days and quit once, is that the same as if I quit 1 game but only played 10? Is it based on a percentage of games that are quit, or how many total are quit in a timeframe? Or is it just a cumulative total over the life of the account?

I am still very much against a blanket removal of the quit ban (people will abuse it as another form of griefing). However, if I play 100 games and I quit out of 3 of them due to bad teammates or other quitters, the amount of matches that I DON'T quit out of should absolutely be taken into consideration. From what it sounds like, that threshold may just be too low. I can absolutely understand how it can be frustrating if the leash is that tight.
There is a cool down period, but I don't know if they want to tell us because then people might try to circumvent it.
Failure to follow forum rules = thread locked.

Mongerty wrote:
So, Op quit some games in the past
I looked at OP's quit history. It is not insignificant. 12 quits this month alone. 31 in the last two months.

AshamanND wrote:
There is a cool down period, but I don't know if they want to tell us because then people might try to circumvent it.
Correct.
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