Forums / Games / Halo 5: Guardians

The sprint discussion thread

OP Gandalfur

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Miggy1483 wrote:
Sprint was not added in previous Halo's (Except for Reach and Halo 4) but the feature is very innovating and challenging because as it can be useful it contains its disadvantages (Not being able to recharge shields).
It also rewards bad plays especially when mixed with spartan charge, I dont think I've known a game reward someone as much for blindly running into danger. It offers significantly increased chances of easier escapes, especially when pursuers who have you 1 shot and then have to give chase with their guns down. Brings in a element of who see's who first instead of gunfights solely being determined on ones skill in strafing and shot accuracy. Gunfights deteriorate into games of cat and mouse and ring around the rosey which is simply annoying and not fun. Then theres the effects on weapon balances and map design.

Sprint simply doesn't work on a games with significantly higher kill times and risk rewards mechanics were never part of Halos core gameplay.
You can't sprint if you're being shot unless you're already at full speed.
Quote:
You can't sprint if you're being shot unless you're already at full speed.
Thrust behind geometry --> sprint away
tsassi wrote:
Ye FLuFFy wrote:
Keep sprint... It's become part of Halo so they can't take it away now.

Subtracting sprint now would be an enormous regression for Halo at this point and therefore it would be an enormous mistake to take out sprint.
Halo started losing population when sprint was added. Going back to traditional Halo roots is the only way to revive the franchise at this point.
Correlation does not imply causation.
True... but I am one person who left because of Sprint... and so are a few of my friends. There's a case to be made...
tsassi wrote:
I guess here we disagree fundamentally what the pace of gameplay means. To you it seems to be the amount of time spent in combat from the total amount of time, but to me it also includes how fast players can actually kill each other. I hadn't really tought about it deeply because to me it just seemed obvious that this should be included. This isn't something I can defend by logic because it comes down to definitions. If you gave everyone tenfold shields and put them on a small map, I would still consider (or would have considered) the resulting gameplay slow.
I apologize for the delayed reply, but I was on conference in China last week and even after returning, I was so horribly jet-lagged (and probably came back with a stomach-flu) that I stayed in bed for the weekend.

Consider this: Which scenario in chess has a higher pace?
A: Every player takes about a minute to make his move, but because of the placement of the figures, after every move one chess piece gets captured.
B: Every player only has five seconds to make a move and only manages to capture an opponent piece on every twelvth move.
Both scenarios have a "kill frequency" of about two minutes per player (one minute cumulative) but the second match has less downtime. It's not even a contest: The second scenario is objectively more fast paced. (Although not neccessarily the more interesting and suspensful one.)

Translate that into Halo: Which scenario has a higher pace?
A: Two players fight each other in a 1v1. Duels last around five seconds, but for various reasons (map size, spawns, etc.) it takes ten seconds for them to meet up again after respawn.
B: Two players fight each other in a 1v1. Duels now last ten seconds, but the map and spawns has been modified so that they re-engage after only five seconds.
Again, both scenarios have the same kill frequency (30 seconds individuall, 15 seconds cumulative, assuming 50:50 win-loss ratio) but the second game is more fast paced because more of that time is used in engagement than just faffing about.

I might have jumped the gun by insinuating that kill frequency has nothing to do with the pace of the game, as it is influenced by the duration of combat. And I want to retract that sentence. But I still stand by my statement that game pacing is first and foremost determined by the time that the players have an interaction with the game (Combat, activating switches, etc. Might be debatable what actually constitutes as "meaningful" interaction. E.g., clamber.) and more importantly by the time they don't. And the latter is more determined by the "out of combat"-settings of a game - i.e. map size, spawns, movement speed, teleporters but also visual and acoustic feedback (can I hear or see where my teammates are fighting, etc.) - while the former can then be finetuned by other settings - weapon damage, shield properties, rate of fire, but also strafe speed and so forth - while still retaining (mostly) the same game pace.

tsassi wrote:
I guess the only proper way to reconcile this is to accept that "pace of gameplay" isn't really properly represented by a single spectrum from slow to fast, but lives in (at least) a two dimensional space. As nice as it would be to order games from slowest to fastest, I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise that there's no single, natural ordering that everyone can instantly agree on.
I agree. It's not a black-and-white scale and I shouldn't have presented it as such. Mea culpa. But I still firmly believe that in said two-(/multi-)dimensional representation, the gradient is higher on the axis showing the uptime/downtime-ratio than any other contribution.
Looonski wrote:
Do you have a source for the movement speed of HaloCE-3 and Halo 5? I've always heard it said that Halo 5 is slower, but never actually seen a source for the claim.
My Halo movement speeds measurement with video proof (where I didn't forget to film it).

The values from CE through Reach are also known from the game files. Here are the screenshots.
slvr cobra wrote:
Massive scale maps for BTB. Halo 3's BTB maps were small in comparison to all the other games, so it didn't need sprint. Reach's were bigger than ever before with more focus on vehicular chaos.
And yet sprint wasn't a default ability in Reach, with tons of players picking other loadouts that had armor lock or jetpack or whatever, but were still able to play the game just fine.
Sprint 4Ever
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Keep sprint... It's become part of Halo so they can't take it away now.

Subtracting sprint now would be an enormous regression for Halo at this point and therefore it would be an enormous mistake to take out sprint.
How would it be a regression to take out sprint? using a working formula over a broken one isn't a regression. Given all the arguments over sprint that are still going on sprint has in no way fit into halo.
Erik L wrote:
True... but I am one person who left because of Sprint... and so are a few of my friends. There's a case to be made...
DId you, or any of your friends, leave solely because of sprint? Or was it perhaps just one of many small things that ultimately turned you away? Can you make the case that what applies to you, your friends, and the people complaining about sprint on the internet also applies to everyone else who doesn't play Halo anymore? I'd be ready to bet a reasonable amount of money that if Halo 6 did everything like Halo 5 (i.e. Spartan Abilities, microtransactions, no splitscreen, uninteresting campaign, and everything else people have complained about), but removed sprint, the game would not do noticeably better.

I'm a great advocate of the removal of sprint, but the amount of hyperbole on this side of the argument constantly pushes me to play devil's advocate. I get it, you think it makes it easier to change minds at 343i if you can convince them that you somehow have the silent majority on your side. But the thing is, if you can't actually make that case, you're not going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you, no matter how much you choose to believe in it.

Celestis wrote:
I can see where you're coming from, but I just can't agree with the conclusion. I can see why you'd consider B to be a faster game, but I just don't feel the difference. Sure, a lot of stuff is happening, but the game isn't progressing any faster. What was downtime has just been replaced with filler, which is not a bad thing because it can make the game more interesting, but to me it doesn't make the game any faster, just different.
Keep sprint... It's become part of Halo so they can't take it away now.

Subtracting sprint now would be an enormous regression for Halo at this point and therefore it would be an enormous mistake to take out sprint.
How would it be a regression to take out sprint? using a working formula over a broken one isn't a regression. Given all the arguments over sprint that are still going on sprint has in no way fit into halo.
I would love to see the NA pro scene coping with sprint removal tho haha, they really fly through the maps at such high pace now. Even though they all praise H2 and H3 (which everyone should of course) and curse out the new mecs in H5, I really think it would take some adjustment to their play styles at Esports. Would really love to see this actually!
Celestis wrote:
slvr cobra wrote:
Massive scale maps for BTB. Halo 3's BTB maps were small in comparison to all the other games, so it didn't need sprint. Reach's were bigger than ever before with more focus on vehicular chaos.
And yet sprint wasn't a default ability in Reach, with tons of players picking other loadouts that had armor lock or jetpack or whatever, but were still able to play the game just fine.
Because they chose one advantage over another. Guys with jet packs could get up to sniper positions or what have you, but they're dead if they're caught out in the open.

Sprint allows you to grab cover on more open maps and cross more safely, especially when everyone has a weapon like the DMR that can peg you pretty consistently at long range.

It also negates long walks to the action when no vehicles are available.
Keep sprint... It's become part of Halo so they can't take it away now.

Subtracting sprint now would be an enormous regression for Halo at this point and therefore it would be an enormous mistake to take out sprint.
How would it be a regression to take out sprint? using a working formula over a broken one isn't a regression. Given all the arguments over sprint that are still going on sprint has in no way fit into halo.
I would love to see the NA pro scene coping with sprint removal tho haha, they really fly through the maps at such high pace now. Even though they all praise H2 and H3 (which everyone should of course) and curse out the new mecs in H5, I really think it would take some adjustment to their play styles at Esports. Would really love to see this actually!
We'd also probably see a lot of players that currently pro go pro. A lot of retired pros and just players that's have bench around longer could likely go pro with a game they can play a lot and get good at while still enjoying it.
I like sprint. I just do not want to keep sprint, into spartan charge.
tsassi wrote:
Erik L wrote:
True... but I am one person who left because of Sprint... and so are a few of my friends. There's a case to be made...
DId you, or any of your friends, leave solely because of sprint? Or was it perhaps just one of many small things that ultimately turned you away? Can you make the case that what applies to you, your friends, and the people complaining about sprint on the internet also applies to everyone else who doesn't play Halo anymore? I'd be ready to bet a reasonable amount of money that if Halo 6 did everything like Halo 5 (i.e. Spartan Abilities, microtransactions, no splitscreen, uninteresting campaign, and everything else people have complained about), but removed sprint, the game would not do noticeably better.
I'm a great advocate of the removal of sprint, but the amount of hyperbole on this side of the argument constantly pushes me to play devil's advocate. I get it, you think it makes it easier to change minds at 343i if you can convince them that you somehow have the silent majority on your side. But the thing is, if you can't actually make that case, you're not going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you, no matter how much you choose to believe in it.
The question wasn't directed at me, but I feel the need to answer anyways:
I would have left solely because of sprint, had 343 not included ADS and removed split-screen. As a result, I ended up leaving because of all three of them. (And yes, I do have H5G on my gamercard, but only because it was gifted to me... and as a used copy, no less.) Even if 343 were to fix those two things in the next game, if it still has sprint (in campaign, that is) I'm not getting it. I can also attest for at least two friends of mine who feel exactly the same way. I cannot speak for the majority, but there are de facto people to whom it really is that much of a deal-breaker...
(That being said, ADS and lack of splitscreen are equally deal-breakers, so if H6 removes sprint but keeps ADS and still has no splitscreen, I'm not getting it either.)
slvr cobra wrote:
Celestis wrote:
slvr cobra wrote:
Massive scale maps for BTB. Halo 3's BTB maps were small in comparison to all the other games, so it didn't need sprint. Reach's were bigger than ever before with more focus on vehicular chaos.
And yet sprint wasn't a default ability in Reach, with tons of players picking other loadouts that had armor lock or jetpack or whatever, but were still able to play the game just fine.
Because they chose one advantage over another. Guys with jet packs could get up to sniper positions or what have you, but they're dead if they're caught out in the open.

Sprint allows you to grab cover on more open maps and cross more safely, especially when everyone has a weapon like the DMR that can peg you pretty consistently at long range.

It also negates long walks to the action when no vehicles are available.
Not the point. You claimed that sprint is now "needed" since Reach because maps got bigger. But the fact is that tons of players didn't need it to get around the map and be successful. You just disproved your own argument by showing that other abilities still allow players to cross huge maps, even when lacking sprint.
Keep sprint... It's become part of Halo so they can't take it away now.

Subtracting sprint now would be an enormous regression for Halo at this point and therefore it would be an enormous mistake to take out sprint.
How would it be a regression to take out sprint? using a working formula over a broken one isn't a regression. Given all the arguments over sprint that are still going on sprint has in no way fit into halo.
I would love to see the NA pro scene coping with sprint removal tho haha, they really fly through the maps at such high pace now. Even though they all praise H2 and H3 (which everyone should of course) and curse out the new mecs in H5, I really think it would take some adjustment to their play styles at Esports. Would really love to see this actually!
We'd also probably see a lot of players that currently pro go pro. A lot of retired pros and just players that's have bench around longer could likely go pro with a game they can play a lot and get good at while still enjoying it.
That's highly possible, but I still doubt it would be for the greater good of their Esport branch. Honestly, 343i should just take all the feedback in, and make sure H6 is lit from launch. H5 is in too deep atm imo
Celestis wrote:
tsassi wrote:
Erik L wrote:
True... but I am one person who left because of Sprint... and so are a few of my friends. There's a case to be made...
DId you, or any of your friends, leave solely because of sprint? Or was it perhaps just one of many small things that ultimately turned you away? Can you make the case that what applies to you, your friends, and the people complaining about sprint on the internet also applies to everyone else who doesn't play Halo anymore? I'd be ready to bet a reasonable amount of money that if Halo 6 did everything like Halo 5 (i.e. Spartan Abilities, microtransactions, no splitscreen, uninteresting campaign, and everything else people have complained about), but removed sprint, the game would not do noticeably better.
I'm a great advocate of the removal of sprint, but the amount of hyperbole on this side of the argument constantly pushes me to play devil's advocate. I get it, you think it makes it easier to change minds at 343i if you can convince them that you somehow have the silent majority on your side. But the thing is, if you can't actually make that case, you're not going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you, no matter how much you choose to believe in it.
The question wasn't directed at me, but I feel the need to answer anyways:
I would have left solely because of sprint, had 343 not included ADS and removed split-screen. As a result, I ended up leaving because of all three of them. (And yes, I do have H5G on my gamercard, but only because it was gifted to me... and as a used copy, no less.) Even if 343 were to fix those two things in the next game, if it still has sprint (in campaign, that is) I'm not getting it. I can also attest for at least two friends of mine who feel exactly the same way. I cannot speak for the majority, but there are de facto people to whom it really is that much of a deal-breaker...
(That being said, ADS and lack of splitscreen are equally deal-breakers, so if H6 removes sprint but keeps ADS and still has no splitscreen, I'm not getting it either.)
FWIW Sprint is one of the biggest factors contributing to me quitting Halo as well, and the same can be said for many of my friends, we've had lengthy discussions about it and the general consensus is always that 343's Halo games just do not feel like Halo, and when they elaborate on that Sprint is always the first thing that comes up, followed by the many, many other poor design decisions that 343 has made with this franchise.

If Sprint is in H6, I will straight up not buy it, in fact there are a lot of factors that can lead to me not buying it but Sprint is the most crucial
XACSlayerX wrote:
Celestis wrote:
The question wasn't directed at me, but I feel the need to answer anyways:
I would have left solely because of sprint, had 343 not included ADS and removed split-screen. As a result, I ended up leaving because of all three of them. (And yes, I do have H5G on my gamercard, but only because it was gifted to me... and as a used copy, no less.) Even if 343 were to fix those two things in the next game, if it still has sprint (in campaign, that is) I'm not getting it. I can also attest for at least two friends of mine who feel exactly the same way. I cannot speak for the majority, but there are de facto people to whom it really is that much of a deal-breaker...
(That being said, ADS and lack of splitscreen are equally deal-breakers, so if H6 removes sprint but keeps ADS and still has no splitscreen, I'm not getting it either.)
FWIW Sprint is one of the biggest factors contributing to me quitting Halo as well, and the same can be said for many of my friends, we've had lengthy discussions about it and the general consensus is always that 343's Halo games just do not feel like Halo, and when they elaborate on that Sprint is always the first thing that comes up, followed by the many, many other poor design decisions that 343 has made with this franchise.

If Sprint is in H6, I will straight up not buy it, in fact there are a lot of factors that can lead to me not buying it but Sprint is the most crucial
I guess some people really do see sprint just as the worst, then. I just find it strange because the whole time sprint has been part of Halo, there has always been something I would've personally rather have seen removed if I got to choose. As far as I'm concerned, and the current state of Halo considered, it would be a pretty good day if sprint was the worst thing I could complain about.
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