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[Locked] Weapon Tuning Discussion Thread

OP ske7ch

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Pheinted wrote:
Food for thought...the BR was not in halo reach. Aside from bloom and AAs...just note the main weapon. Compare that to how awful slayer starts in older halos were. Bungie HAD to make it BR starts. In h5 we have an awesome magnum. Don't let that weapon be affected just for the sake of the Br being "iconic" i fear that if the br cannot be managed properly, 343i will touch the default magnum... idk how the rest of the community feels. I like both weapons, but in the current game, if I had to remove 1 from ranked arena it would be the BR.
Trust me dude. When you nerf 14 weapons it is only a matter of time before you have to nerf 14 more. Now standouts like H5 Pistol, Storm Rifle, Light Rifle, and Shotty now pose stronger threat by simply remaining untouched. From the deepest part of my heart I think the Weapons in H5 multiplayer were some of the greatest achievements this entire franchise has seen and now they are breaking them to get BR starts on everything again to bring us back to H2/H3 MLG days. I would have actually endorsed this move for Halo 6 but they should have let the Halo 5 weapons be.
I don't want BR starts again. You either die too fast because the BR is too accurate, or make inconsistent and piss people off. Halo 3s mlg had special settings. I believe 110% base damage to compensate inconsistencies within the BR, and things like default speed 110 for being too slow. Halo 5s magnum feels perfect for a starting weapon. The BR existing makes things skewed. It does so also because of the maps though.

For halo 6, I can't really even imagine how that will be. Things are always added to halo games. Despite 5 going a bit back to it's roots, its still far from its roots. Which has some good and some bad. I personally quite like halo 5 though. Hence why I still play it. Lol

I mean...sure...I played the old games. I liked them for what they were. I used the BR, and they were good halo games. Had their own issues as any other game of course. Halo 5, I also like what it is. Though it's beginning to have an identity crisis. Maybe if they just listened to the community and made a classic halo mode from the start, made THAT br starts, throwback maps and settings, as much of that wack projectile based and random spread br as people want, there wouldn't be all this going on today.

Halo 5 struggles with a few issues. Aside from all of this, the social playlist...I mean jesus Christ. The rotation stuff...its annoying. You get something you want and then its gone..but I guess thats off the topic at hand...I just don't want to see this game to keep changing so much that more and more players drop out. The goal is player retention.
Been a busy week and it took me a while to try all the new changes sufficiently. But now that I have, boy do I have some comments... First a few general ones about the weapons:
  • BR - severely weakened but usable at short-to-mid-ranges. Magnum is better overall, but BR still works well in a narrow range window. I liked the old BR better, but this one has some niche uses in arena maps, and is worth carrying for cleanup kills.
  • AR - too much headshot damage, but I appreciate that it's no longer as much of a "melt machine" in the hands of noobs. Positive change.
  • SMG - also a positive change. This thing was way OP before.
  • Carbine - this gun is just awful now. Loses to the BR at medium ranges, but not good enough at long ranges to get consistent kills. You REALLY feel the random spread on this gun, and it feels terrible.
  • DMR - just feels really weird... I don't like it but I also can't quite figure it out. The reticle-magnetism seems to vary wildly with range, which is not a good property... you want the reticle magnetism of a weapon to feel linearly consistent across ranges, otherwise it just throws off your aim badly. The pre-nerf DMR was OP, for sure. I think the correct solution would just have been to slow the fire rate of the old DMR, and slightly less headshot magnetism, but keep the other properties.
  • Camo - holy crap this thing is OP now. A slight buff was needed but this may have gone too far. The biggest problem now is how fast the full camo effect returns after you shoot him. you can get a camo guy 1-shot, but if they hide for half a second they're basically impossible for anyone to find again.
  • Nade launcher and fuel rod - these nerfs probably went a little too far. I'd prefer a middle ground...
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More importantly though, let's separately break down how these "tunings" affect Arena and WZ (I don't play enough BTB to comment intelligently).

Arena:
Overall, the weapon changes have shifted priorities for map-pickups, but the game still plays fairly well. The H5 Magnum is effective at most ranges you encounter in arena maps, and appropriately powered for most of the angles and sight lines (just like in HCS). The BR is no longer worth going out of your way for, whereas the storm rifle, brute plasma, and LR are now super powerful. The LR isn't quite as OP cause it doesn't have a ton of starting ammo, but the two plasma weapons need to be treated as high-tier power weapons. They're both MUCH better than the nade launcher, and comparably good to the shotgun, if not better... I honestly don't understand why the nade launcher got such a huge nerf... The current version is less good than the plasma pistol in Arena, yet has way less ammo. Also, the sniper (and to some extent rockets) is much more powerful because of the nerfs to BR, Carbine, and DMR. so there are fewer weapons on the map to de-scope or counter a sniper.

TL;DR - Arena plays fine with the new tunings, but the Metagame has definitely shifted even more to controlling power weapons (including the LR and storm rifles), and slightly away from fast-paced aggressive play. I liked the old way better, but i can tolerate the new way.

Warzone
Oh man... here I go. I think these weapon nerfs have made WZ games entirely un-enjoyable, un-balanced, slow-paced, drawn-out slogs that grind to the close without exciting developments. I absolutely hate what they have done to WZ, and I think the population (at least at my high MMR range) has taken a hit as a result.
  • Most importantly, nerfs to the BR, Carbine, and DMR, have essentially buffed the -Yoink- out of light vehicle REQs (ghosts, warthogs, wasps), close-range REQs (storm rifles, shotguns, rockets, saws), railguns, and snipers. It's simply no longer possible to control any sight-lines or suppress snipers on a WZ map unless you have a power weapon or vehicle, because the new BR is so bad at range. Maybe it's possible to do something with a DMR, but that weapon feels so clunky, and isn't available until L6 anyway.
  • As a result, it's even harder than before to shift momentum or mount a comeback in a WZ game after a team caps the middle base and gets the first wasps, ghosts, and snipers out. Sanctum, Noctus, and ARC are especially toxic now, because they have such long sight lines and so much open space, it's now virtually impossible to dislodge a team who gets set up with power positions and vehicles - the BR is too weak to do anything now. The H2BR helps a bit, but its range is still too short, plus not everyone has it (and many folks don't like the way it feels, either).
  • Nerfing the banshee (which I believe was actually too harsh a nerf - see my reasoning in threads one, two, and three) also makes it harder to mount a comeback, and makes WZ less interesting and exciting. Previously the banshee was the ONE counter you could call when a team got set up with snipers on the high ground, and ghosts/wraiths roaming the ground. Now the banshee is almost worthless because it's instantly destroyed (can't flip often enough to evade).
  • L5-L7 Banshees are now way outclassed by L2-L4 plasma pistols, L4-L5 lasers, L4-L5 Railguns, L3 oni hogs, AA wraiths, L5-L7 mantises, L5 rockets, L6 Hannibal Wasps. Why on earth would you spend 6-7 REQ energy only to get instantly destroyed or hijacked by someone with a L3-L4 REQ? And I'm a good banshee pilot, too.
  • Nerfed Bood of Suban, pro-pipe, and fuel rod - now are way outclassed by other L4 REQs (railguns, blaze, ghost ultra, wasp, voids, camo, etc.)
  • Nerfed BRs are outclassesd by everything.
TL;DR - Warzone plays terribly with the new settings, IMO. You can tell by my record that I have played more than a little WZ... but these tunings may send me back to arena permanently. :-/ Very sad because WZ games were often crazy fun close games.... but now they are pretty boring (if you're winning) or frustrating (if you're losing) affairs.
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when you Nerf....it never stops. Now weapons like the Storm Rifle and Light Rifle are timed call outs. Then complaints will start to build on those and they are subject for the next nerf. Soon your 14 turns into 31 weapon changes 4 months later on a subject that didn't have the community up in arms. Honestly if you did no changes to all weapons and built 2 new Dev maps for Arena 4's/ BTB/ and maybe one new WZ map I feel it would have been a better use of time.
^^ This is so true. It's exactly what I'm getting at in my above comments. The game was in a reasonably balanced state before, now WZ (and perhaps BTB) are totally out of whack, with the maps far too large for the weapon functionality, and the weapon and vehicle sandbox totally unbalanced for the way those maps play. Why 343 would turn this game upside down after 2 years, I will never understand... This game is no longer H5, it's something new and worse.
I have a **constructive**suggestion, though: For BTB, replace the loadout BR with an H2BR. The H2BR doesn't feel like it has been altered, and with most of the BTB maps being quite large, it would give BTB players a useful mid range weapon, and not take away from the desired BR changes for 4v4 maps.

H2BR in BTB! 343 plz!! :)
I am jealous I didn't think of this myself. This is actually the best suggestion in this thread. The most dramatic pain points on the new BR are mostly on BTB and WZ players where the maps are massive. Although for WZ they might have to move the H2 BR up a Req....or do the alternative BR's own the standard BR nerf too? If they don't then as long as WZ players don't choose the standard they would be ok.
All the alternative BRs were also nerfed along with the basic BR. As I said in my post above, it's incredibly painful for WZ.

The H2BR is better, but it's a mythic REQ... so many folks don't have it. Also, while some folks swear by it, a lot of other folks don't like the "feel" when it shoots, and strongly prefer the OG H5 BR. It seems like a 50-50 split in the WZ community whehter people like hte H2 BR or the OG H5 BR.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
All the alternative BRs were also nerfed along with the basic BR. As I said in my post above, it's incredibly painful for WZ.

The H2BR is better, but it's a mythic REQ... so many folks don't have it. Also, while some folks swear by it, a lot of other folks don't like the "feel" when it shoots, and strongly prefer the OG H5 BR. It seems like a 50-50 split in the WZ community whehter people like hte H2 BR or the OG H5 BR.
Do the alternative BR's include H2BR? Subjectively it did not feel that way to me.

I am not talking about WZ - I"m talking about in BTB. Instead of starting with BR/AR, start with H2BR/AR. No REQs involved, fixes BTB distance shooting issues.
I find this update very well, bravo 343i.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
I have a **constructive**suggestion, though: For BTB, replace the loadout BR with an H2BR. The H2BR doesn't feel like it has been altered, and with most of the BTB maps being quite large, it would give BTB players a useful mid range weapon, and not take away from the desired BR changes for 4v4 maps.

H2BR in BTB! 343 plz!! :)
I am jealous I didn't think of this myself. This is actually the best suggestion in this thread. The most dramatic pain points on the new BR are mostly on BTB and WZ players where the maps are massive. Although for WZ they might have to move the H2 BR up a Req....or do the alternative BR's own the standard BR nerf too? If they don't then as long as WZ players don't choose the standard they would be ok.
All the alternative BRs were also nerfed along with the basic BR. As I said in my post above, it's incredibly painful for WZ.

The H2BR is better, but it's a mythic REQ... so many folks don't have it. Also, while some folks swear by it, a lot of other folks don't like the "feel" when it shoots, and strongly prefer the OG H5 BR. It seems like a 50-50 split in the WZ community whehter people like hte H2 BR or the OG H5 BR.
Oh wow so all versions of BR's are nerfed with the OG? That is actually kind of comical in a sense.....you whip out your Long Shot BR in WZ but the downgrade to BR expressively addressed not being accurate from long distance anymore...it is like when Carl's Jr bragged about being the 1st Fast Food place to offer a grilled cheese but then at the end of the ad said it was a grilled cheeseburger....which is essentially a patty melt?
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
All the alternative BRs were also nerfed along with the basic BR. As I said in my post above, it's incredibly painful for WZ.

The H2BR is better, but it's a mythic REQ... so many folks don't have it. Also, while some folks swear by it, a lot of other folks don't like the "feel" when it shoots, and strongly prefer the OG H5 BR. It seems like a 50-50 split in the WZ community whehter people like hte H2 BR or the OG H5 BR.
Do the alternative BR's include H2BR? Subjectively it did not feel that way to me.

I am not talking about WZ - I"m talking about in BTB. Instead of starting with BR/AR, start with H2BR/AR. No REQs involved, fixes BTB distance shooting issues.
Sorry, my previous post was unclear. I do NOT believe the H2BR has been nerfed, at least not substantially. But I haven't done a detailed analysis.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
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when you Nerf....it never stops. Now weapons like the Storm Rifle and Light Rifle are timed call outs. Then complaints will start to build on those and they are subject for the next nerf. Soon your 14 turns into 31 weapon changes 4 months later on a subject that didn't have the community up in arms. Honestly if you did no changes to all weapons and built 2 new Dev maps for Arena 4's/ BTB/ and maybe one new WZ map I feel it would have been a better use of time.
^^ This is so true. It's exactly what I'm getting at in my above comments. The game was in a reasonably balanced state before, now WZ (and perhaps BTB) are totally out of whack, with the maps far too large for the weapon functionality, and the weapon and vehicle sandbox totally unbalanced for the way those maps play. Why 343 would turn this game upside down after 2 years, I will never understand... This game is no longer H5, it's something new and worse.
Excellent WZ assessment. So potentially a desired affect in 1 gametype steam rolls and spreads like the plague to other gametypes which nets unintended results. Very strong and precise points on WZ Rzr J3ST3R.

In addition some people are chiming in saying "YAY changes! What an amazing job!" have like 1000 or less BR kills in the bucket and several haven't even reached SR100. Meanwhile dudes like Rzr J3ST3R have over 188,000 kills in the bucket with an SR152. Now I am a low SR that just got back into the game myself but excuse me if I am trusting the detailed responses and reasoning of these H5 Veterans who are in the trenches practically every day.
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Yeah, I think it just shows that 343 obviously put minimal consideration to how these changes would affect Warzone since this was mainly done for Arena gametypes.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
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when you Nerf....it never stops. Now weapons like the Storm Rifle and Light Rifle are timed call outs. Then complaints will start to build on those and they are subject for the next nerf. Soon your 14 turns into 31 weapon changes 4 months later on a subject that didn't have the community up in arms. Honestly if you did no changes to all weapons and built 2 new Dev maps for Arena 4's/ BTB/ and maybe one new WZ map I feel it would have been a better use of time.
^^ This is so true. It's exactly what I'm getting at in my above comments. The game was in a reasonably balanced state before, now WZ (and perhaps BTB) are totally out of whack, with the maps far too large for the weapon functionality, and the weapon and vehicle sandbox totally unbalanced for the way those maps play. Why 343 would turn this game upside down after 2 years, I will never understand... This game is no longer H5, it's something new and worse.
Excellent WZ assessment. So potentially a desired affect in 1 gametype steam rolls and spreads like the plague to other gametypes which nets unintended results. Very strong and precise points on WZ Rzr J3ST3R.
I'll make one other point about how ridiculous some of these "tunes" were, especially in WZ.

There were people complaining (mostly in arena playlists) about how the BR, DMR, and Carbine were too strong and had too much range and versatility. So they all get nerfed. So now the snipers are all super powerful instead! So if you were someone who loved sniping, this update is good for you. But if you preferred the precision weapon loadouts (BR, Carbine), or other WZ REQs, over a sniper, then this update is terrible for you! Why has 343 decided to pander to the snipers only crowd? You have to realize that nerfing some weapons buff others by omission, so you're favoring players who like those weapons. Why do those players get more of a voice than the BR-lovers? --
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Same argument goes for the banshee. There are a fair number of banshee haters out there, to be sure. Including many players who didn't know how to use it, or take it down, and preferred to camp on top of bases with a sniper waiting to pick off players, or run around with shotguns. They hated the banshee because it prevented that kind of cheeky camping (camping which I honestly think makes games slow, boring, frustrating affairs). Or they like flying wasps and phaetons (which are easy to fly and pick off kills), but didn't like being countered by skilled banshee pilots who put an end to their camping fun. So why do the wasp, phaeton, and sniper lovers get priority over the banshee lovers? Previously the wasps and banshees were well balanced at L4-L6. The L7 Banshee ultra was a little too good, and deserved a slight armor or RoF nerf, but otherwise comparably balanced to other L7 REQs. Now, all the banshees are hot trash ("flying tortoises" as Heaviies has called them... lol).
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DaxSeven09 wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
Nooga wrote:
Remember when Coca Cola released "NEW Coke" ?
I was born in 85 so i missed this one, plus Pepsi is better. But i agree that a survey with well thought out questions may be a good way to gather information but it cannot be the only option for feedback.
Agreed, I don't think abolishing the forums is the answer, Im just having an ambitious expectation of a software company, I guess.
You must not have been aware of the Feedback program for the tuning test.
Oh really, Where is all the Data on this survey? How many people filled out the survey? what were the results? I must have missed the memo along with my entire Spartan Company. Interesting how scattered all the feedback and community communication is considering how "community focused" 343 is.
Yes, really. We may not know the results, and how many did the survey but I know it was there and offered.

And, yes, we all know that 343 is a little lacking with its communication, but in this particular instance, it is not as scattered as you are making it out to be. All you had to do was read the weekly community updates, and pay attention to these forums, and Halo/employees twitter. You have to put in a little work for that information. You can't expect for every tidbit to pop up in the Message of the Day.

Dax, Can you elaborate on this survey? I am confused why this wouldn't simply be plugged into the "Message of the day", I just don't understand how this would be an effective way of reaching the majority of players ( if that is really what 343 wanted). What were the survey questions like? I would love to have participated. I think personally the NEW BR has a rate of fire that makes it too slow to challenge other weapons like the DMR, Pistol, LR. I could really care less about the other weapon tunes, but the BR does not work on larger maps anymore (BTB and WZ is ruined). It seems the BR was tuned for Arena play only. I don't think 343 does a good job of communicating with us. To say "343 is a little lacking with its communication" is a major understatement. A pop up vote would have solved all this nonsense. Just display the voting results from the community and let the data speak for itself.
Positive: I feel like this is the best ideration of halo 5 to date. Im a huge fan of the classic game play and before I really wanted to like halo 5 but it was to intense. Now after the tuning, i feel the game has slowed a bit. Halo 5 is bit more focused and Im actually enjoying myself.

tweeks enjoyed:
Tuning to the ar. Now my fav weapon
Tuning to the railgun timing is good
Tuning to the br to make it feel like h3 but not h3s br (if you know what i mean)
Tuning of the smg to make it feel in place
Tuning relic sword I like it the slower pace
Tuning grenades like the direction alot

tweeks needed:
DMR-can out preform the br at mid range/feels a bit to easy to aim there.
Gun Fight Mag-To much climb/makes my shots feel a bit to hard to land with advanced mobility
Relic Sword-Draws a bit to slow for me.
Frags-have a bit to much bounce for the accuracy thats requires.
***note***
if weapon not noted ive either not had it in a match yet or still thinking about it.

-In short I love the tuning. It makes me excited for halo 6. Hopefully with this out of the way it will make designing dev maps a bit easier and we can get more dev maps in the game. Im a big btb and social fan so to see more of that in halo6 along with a bit slower game would be perfect for me!

***Thanks for all the hard work****
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Fruit Poof wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
Nooga wrote:
Remember when Coca Cola released "NEW Coke" ?
I was born in 85 so i missed this one, plus Pepsi is better. But i agree that a survey with well thought out questions may be a good way to gather information but it cannot be the only option for feedback.
Agreed, I don't think abolishing the forums is the answer, Im just having an ambitious expectation of a software company, I guess.
You must not have been aware of the Feedback program for the tuning test.
Oh really, Where is all the Data on this survey? How many people filled out the survey? what were the results? I must have missed the memo along with my entire Spartan Company. Interesting how scattered all the feedback and community communication is considering how "community focused" 343 is.
Yes, really. We may not know the results, and how many did the survey but I know it was there and offered.

And, yes, we all know that 343 is a little lacking with its communication, but in this particular instance, it is not as scattered as you are making it out to be. All you had to do was read the weekly community updates, and pay attention to these forums, and Halo/employees twitter. You have to put in a little work for that information. You can't expect for every tidbit to pop up in the Message of the Day.

Dax, Can you elaborate on this survey? I am confused why this wouldn't simply be plugged into the "Message of the day", I just don't understand how this would be an effective way of reaching the majority of players ( if that is really what 343 wanted). What were the survey questions like? I would love to have participated.
When you join the Halo Community Feedback Program, you agree to not discuss the contents of the surveys you participate in. This is to prevent introducing bias into the data collected, prevent leaking of potential upcoming features, and other important things. Everyone is welcome to sign up for the HCFP. I haven't gotten a survey in a long time, but that's probably because I haven't played Halo in a long time.
It doesn't reach a majority of players, for sure. The HCFP participants represent a percentage of Waypoint users, who represent a percentage of the Halo 5 player base. Most players don't provide any feedback and just play the game (or don't play). 343i combines the vocal feedback they get from sources like Waypoint and reddit and the HCFP with metadata they collect behind the scenes, and that's likely how they make decisions about changes to the game.
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I personally feel like you've ruined the game I've played and found very addictive for nearly two years. How many people were really calling for these changes? Ive slowly begun to realise that the AR is basically useless, you may as well just use the pistol on almost all situations. So what's the point? There obviously isn't much room for differently playstyles now and if I just wanted to use the pistol, I'd play HCS. My index finger actually hurts from squeezing the trigger over and over and over. Sure I'll get a load of -Yoink- for saying this, but this is so boring. So very boring.

Yeah I get that you want to make the game more skilful, but we're not all champ players you know? Most of us aren't even close, the majority of us aren't even onyx. Yeah so I'm not great at the game, but it's my main game and now I don't even want to play it if I'm honest.
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Cpt Pylot wrote:
Positive: I feel like this is the best ideration of halo 5 to date. Im a huge fan of the classic game play and before I really wanted to like halo 5 but it was to intense. Now after the tuning, i feel the game has slowed a bit. Halo 5 is bit more focused and Im actually enjoying myself.

tweeks enjoyed:
Tuning to the ar. Now my fav weapon
Tuning to the railgun timing is good
Tuning to the br to make it feel like h3 but not h3s br (if you know what i mean)
Tuning of the smg to make it feel in place
Tuning relic sword I like it the slower pace
Tuning grenades like the direction alot

tweeks needed:
DMR-can out preform the br at mid range/feels a bit to easy to aim there.
Gun Fight Mag-To much climb/makes my shots feel a bit to hard to land with advanced mobility
Relic Sword-Draws a bit to slow for me.
Frags-have a bit to much bounce for the accuracy thats requires.
***note***
if weapon not noted ive either not had it in a match yet or still thinking about it.

-In short I love the tuning. It makes me excited for halo 6. Hopefully with this out of the way it will make designing dev maps a bit easier and we can get more dev maps in the game. Im a big btb and social fan so to see more of that in halo6 along with a bit slower game would be perfect for me!

***Thanks for all the hard work****
If you were a slower typist your post would have matched the time you have put into this game. I mean seriously how can you deeply analyze something that you have barely scraped the surface of yourself. Honestly if this weapon tuning brought you back to Halo I pleased to have people come back but something doesn't smell quite right. To be completely honest I wouldn't have minded the tuning quite as much if it was intro'd in H6 because variations are to be expected. But modifying something so drastic when everyone is 2 years deep into their development is odd to say the very least. This almost feels like they are using us as Pre-Beta for H6.
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