Forums / Games / Halo 5: Guardians

Weapon Tuning Discussion Thread

OP ske7ch

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A6ENT C wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
Shin Vigor wrote:
Congratulations. You've made the AR a piece of crap.

The Frag Grenades, meanwhile, are going to be way OP.

I have some other minor gripes, but those are my big two.
Did you even read or watch
Lol, 200% increase in headshot damage isn't enough for you?
To be fair, if you don't know the base and headshot damage values (as I'll admit I don't), a 200% increase doesn't really say much as you only have your "guesstimates" to go off of.
200% is 200%. That's a heck of a lot. Granted we don't know exactly how this will feel yet, but basically I am commenting on him/her saying that this has ruined the weapon.

What kills me is it's saying that the player doesn't want to be challenged. They don't want to have to be more accurate and raise their skill with a particular weapon. I didn't want the Carbine to change. I loved that thing pre update, but I am ready for the challenge.
You're right that lessening the base damage and increasing the headshot damage (as well as making headshots harder to get) does better reward precise aim. I'm not disputing that.

I'd just like to see the damage values and a chart showing the gaps between shots (noting time-to-shields, perfect kill, and sub-optimal kill). That information along with the knowledge that shields have 70 hp, armor has 45 hp, and melee deals 70 hp can allow for more informed suggestions.
So basically the charts and info we have are not enough? You do realize they gave us Perfect TTK and Sub-optimal right? Maybe not all that other stuff, but hey, it's a start. They have never given us this much information before.
Don't get me wrong, I greatly appreciate what they have provided (and said as much on Page 1). I just see no harm in asking for more, do you?
I yeah absolutely, whatever info we can get the better.
I feel like perfectly accurate precision weapons was one of my biggest selling points for H5, and I'm sad to be losing that on several of them. I don't fault the reasoning behind the changes, but I do think the same goal could have been achieved through Aim-assist/Magnetism/Rate of Fire/Damage changes instead of adding randomness where previously there was none. For the time being I'm just glad HCS settings use Pistol-only starts.

Hopefully this isn't the last balance update we can move back towards spread-less precision weapons in the future.
They did do this. There is no "randonmess" as you are stating. I don't understand how slight bullet spread, compared to non is still constituted as randomness. No, there is no random added. Only that now we have to work a little harder for out Perfect kills.
Looking forward to seeing the difference in all of the weapons. I think that this will be for the better and make some of the weapons less OP.
DaxSeven09 wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
Shin Vigor wrote:
Congratulations. You've made the AR a piece of crap.

The Frag Grenades, meanwhile, are going to be way OP.

I have some other minor gripes, but those are my big two.
Did you even read or watch
Lol, 200% increase in headshot damage isn't enough for you?
To be fair, if you don't know the base and headshot damage values (as I'll admit I don't), a 200% increase doesn't really say much as you only have your "guesstimates" to go off of.
200% is 200%. That's a heck of a lot. Granted we don't know exactly how this will feel yet, but basically I am commenting on him/her saying that this has ruined the weapon.

What kills me is it's saying that the player doesn't want to be challenged. They don't want to have to be more accurate and raise their skill with a particular weapon. I didn't want the Carbine to change. I loved that thing pre update, but I am ready for the challenge.
You're right that lessening the base damage and increasing the headshot damage (as well as making headshots harder to get) does better reward precise aim. I'm not disputing that.

I'd just like to see the damage values and a chart showing the gaps between shots (noting time-to-shields, perfect kill, and sub-optimal kill). That information along with the knowledge that shields have 70 hp, armor has 45 hp, and melee deals 70 hp can allow for more informed suggestions.
So basically the charts and info we have are not enough? You do realize they gave us Perfect TTK and Sub-optimal right? Maybe not all that other stuff, but hey, it's a start. They have never given us this much information before.
Don't get me wrong, I greatly appreciate what they have provided (and said as much on Page 1). I just see no harm in asking for more, do you?
I yeah absolutely, whatever info we can get the better.
I feel like perfectly accurate precision weapons was one of my biggest selling points for H5, and I'm sad to be losing that on several of them. I don't fault the reasoning behind the changes, but I do think the same goal could have been achieved through Aim-assist/Magnetism/Rate of Fire/Damage changes instead of adding randomness where previously there was none. For the time being I'm just glad HCS settings use Pistol-only starts.

Hopefully this isn't the last balance update we can move back towards spread-less precision weapons in the future.
They did do this. There is no "randonmess" as you are stating. I don't understand how slight bullet spread, compared to non is still constituted as randomness. No, there is no random added. Only that now we have to work a little harder for out Perfect kills.
Bullet spread, by definition, is randomness.
DaxSeven09 wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
Shin Vigor wrote:
Congratulations. You've made the AR a piece of crap.

The Frag Grenades, meanwhile, are going to be way OP.

I have some other minor gripes, but those are my big two.
Did you even read or watch
Lol, 200% increase in headshot damage isn't enough for you?
To be fair, if you don't know the base and headshot damage values (as I'll admit I don't), a 200% increase doesn't really say much as you only have your "guesstimates" to go off of.
200% is 200%. That's a heck of a lot. Granted we don't know exactly how this will feel yet, but basically I am commenting on him/her saying that this has ruined the weapon.

What kills me is it's saying that the player doesn't want to be challenged. They don't want to have to be more accurate and raise their skill with a particular weapon. I didn't want the Carbine to change. I loved that thing pre update, but I am ready for the challenge.
You're right that lessening the base damage and increasing the headshot damage (as well as making headshots harder to get) does better reward precise aim. I'm not disputing that.

I'd just like to see the damage values and a chart showing the gaps between shots (noting time-to-shields, perfect kill, and sub-optimal kill). That information along with the knowledge that shields have 70 hp, armor has 45 hp, and melee deals 70 hp can allow for more informed suggestions.
So basically the charts and info we have are not enough? You do realize they gave us Perfect TTK and Sub-optimal right? Maybe not all that other stuff, but hey, it's a start. They have never given us this much information before.
The thing he is asking for is the frame data of how many bullets does "x" weapon shot per second. Since H5 runs at about 60 FPS a weapon like the tuned DMR now kills in about 1.5 seconds or 90 frames and the AR now at about 72 frames.

And i I think he wants how much damage each shot did to the total hit points of a player (70 shield and 45 health) I do have a few examples based on pausing the playback when I did tests with my friend:
AR: 7.8 per shot and 15.6 on headshots and weak points now it's 6.2 and 24.8 for critical hits
SMG: same damage but headshots dealt 11.7 damage. Now it's just 6.2 and only under 7 for headshots.
BR: still 7.5 with on burst doing 22.5 damage. Headshots intsakill
DMR: does 24 damage but the shield system absorbs the last damage to prevent it from being a four shot. 1 shot to the head.
Magnum (regular): 17.5 for four shots to break shields and 5-7 in full.

Those are for the regular "loadout weapons"
DaxSeven09 wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
Shin Vigor wrote:
Congratulations. You've made the AR a piece of crap.

The Frag Grenades, meanwhile, are going to be way OP.

I have some other minor gripes, but those are my big two.
Did you even read or watch
Lol, 200% increase in headshot damage isn't enough for you?
To be fair, if you don't know the base and headshot damage values (as I'll admit I don't), a 200% increase doesn't really say much as you only have your "guesstimates" to go off of.
200% is 200%. That's a heck of a lot. Granted we don't know exactly how this will feel yet, but basically I am commenting on him/her saying that this has ruined the weapon.

What kills me is it's saying that the player doesn't want to be challenged. They don't want to have to be more accurate and raise their skill with a particular weapon. I didn't want the Carbine to change. I loved that thing pre update, but I am ready for the challenge.
You're right that lessening the base damage and increasing the headshot damage (as well as making headshots harder to get) does better reward precise aim. I'm not disputing that.

I'd just like to see the damage values and a chart showing the gaps between shots (noting time-to-shields, perfect kill, and sub-optimal kill). That information along with the knowledge that shields have 70 hp, armor has 45 hp, and melee deals 70 hp can allow for more informed suggestions.
I feel like perfectly accurate precision weapons was one of my biggest selling points for H5, and I'm sad to be losing that on several of them. I don't fault the reasoning behind the changes, but I do think the same goal could have been achieved through Aim-assist/Magnetism/Rate of Fire/Damage changes instead of adding randomness where previously there was none. For the time being I'm just glad HCS settings use Pistol-only starts.

Hopefully this isn't the last balance update we can move back towards spread-less precision weapons in the future.
They did do this. There is no "randonmess" as you are stating. I don't understand how slight bullet spread, compared to non is still constituted as randomness. No, there is no random added. Only that now we have to work a little harder for out Perfect kills.
They did both. Bullet spread (however slight the trajectory's variation) is inherently random. Whether that's acceptable is a matter of opinion, but that it's random is a factual statement. If players actually dictate said variation through some means like movement direction, then it's not random but would be rather opaque.

In order to not be random, the trajectory's variability must be determined by the player instead of by the game itself.
A6ENT C wrote:
  • During the live-stream and in the update page, the terms "aim assist" and "magnetism" are used non-interchangeably. Magnetism is described as making the reticle "sticky" and adding "friction". Meanwhile, its only said that aim assist "affects how ‘easy’ it is for a projectile to hit the target". Can you elaborate how aim assist achieves this and/or how it differs from magnetism?
The concept of magnetism is actually a part of assisting player aim via the reticle and bullet. Within the stream and blog 343i have actually coined the "Aim Assist" and "Magnetism" terms backward to how I've typically heard them used in relation to how the game provides assistance. For instance, historically I've seen and heard the term "Aim Assist" applied to the stickiness of a player's reticle when passing over an enemy within a weapon's effective range, but that stickiness can also be referred to as a type of reticle magnetism. I also usually hear the term "Magnetism" relate to the magnetism applied to bullets or bullet magnetism. This type of magnetism relates to an assisting pull on the trajectory of bullets when they're fired in close proximity of the target (or parts of the target's hitbox -- such as the head) when within the weapon's effective range. In any case the concepts are the same even when the terminology is flipped because they're both technically types of Aim Assist and they both involve a type of magnetism effect. You could essentially refer to them as "Reticle Magnetism" and "Bullet Magnetism" and group them together under the term "Aim Assist" as a broader conceptual title.
This update is garbage. The AR feels like I’m shooting pebbles out of a rapid fire slingshot. The feel overall is horrible.
Mr Sir 81 wrote:
This update is garbage. The AR feels like I’m shooting pebbles out of a rapid fire slingshot. The feel overall is horrible.
Tip: Break the opponent's shields then aim for the head and when at a distance where full auto makes accuracy difficult try pulsing or bursting the weapon's fire and again try landing a head-shot after breaking the shields.
DaxSeven09 wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
Shin Vigor wrote:
Congratulations. You've made the AR a piece of crap.

The Frag Grenades, meanwhile, are going to be way OP.

I have some other minor gripes, but those are my big two.
Did you even read or watch
Lol, 200% increase in headshot damage isn't enough for you?
To be fair, if you don't know the base and headshot damage values (as I'll admit I don't), a 200% increase doesn't really say much as you only have your "guesstimates" to go off of.
200% is 200%. That's a heck of a lot. Granted we don't know exactly how this will feel yet, but basically I am commenting on him/her saying that this has ruined the weapon.

What kills me is it's saying that the player doesn't want to be challenged. They don't want to have to be more accurate and raise their skill with a particular weapon. I didn't want the Carbine to change. I loved that thing pre update, but I am ready for the challenge.
You're right that lessening the base damage and increasing the headshot damage (as well as making headshots harder to get) does better reward precise aim. I'm not disputing that.

I'd just like to see the damage values and a chart showing the gaps between shots (noting time-to-shields, perfect kill, and sub-optimal kill). That information along with the knowledge that shields have 70 hp, armor has 45 hp, and melee deals 70 hp can allow for more informed suggestions.
So basically the charts and info we have are not enough? You do realize they gave us Perfect TTK and Sub-optimal right? Maybe not all that other stuff, but hey, it's a start. They have never given us this much information before.
Don't get me wrong, I greatly appreciate what they have provided (and said as much on Page 1). I just see no harm in asking for more, do you?
I yeah absolutely, whatever info we can get the better.
I feel like perfectly accurate precision weapons was one of my biggest selling points for H5, and I'm sad to be losing that on several of them. I don't fault the reasoning behind the changes, but I do think the same goal could have been achieved through Aim-assist/Magnetism/Rate of Fire/Damage changes instead of adding randomness where previously there was none. For the time being I'm just glad HCS settings use Pistol-only starts.

Hopefully this isn't the last balance update we can move back towards spread-less precision weapons in the future.
They did do this. There is no "randonmess" as you are stating. I don't understand how slight bullet spread, compared to non is still constituted as randomness. No, there is no random added. Only that now we have to work a little harder for out Perfect kills.
Bullet spread, by definition, is randomness.
The randomness that I am speaking of is the tuning test randomness. Where the bullet trajectory was completely different than where the reticule is. The difference now is the bullet spread, what we have seen in the stream and on paper, is relegated. So in that sense it is not random. When the term random is thrown out there it is insinuating bullets still go wherever, and that's just not the case.

This is also a response to Agent C. I am on my phone, and it's a little difficult to do multiple quotes.
eLantern wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
  • During the live-stream and in the update page, the terms "aim assist" and "magnetism" are used non-interchangeably. Magnetism is described as making the reticle "sticky" and adding "friction". Meanwhile, its only said that aim assist "affects how ‘easy’ it is for a projectile to hit the target". Can you elaborate how aim assist achieves this and/or how it differs from magnetism?
The concept of magnetism is actually a part of assisting player aim via the reticle and bullet. Within the stream and blog 343i have actually coined the "Aim Assist" and "Magnetism" terms backward to how I've typically heard them used in relation to how the game provides assistance. For instance, historically I've seen and heard the term "Aim Assist" applied to the stickiness of a player's reticle when passing over an enemy within a weapon's effective range, but that stickiness can also be referred to as a type of reticle magnetism. I've also usually hear the term "Magnetism" relate to the magnetism applied to bullets or bullet magnetism. This type of magnetism relates to an assisting pull on the trajectory of bullets when they're fired in close proximity of the target (or parts of the target's hitbox -- such as the head) when within the weapon's effective range. In any case the concepts are the same even when the terminology is flipped because they're both types of Aim Assist and they both involve a type of magnetism effect.
Well put. It would be nice if the FPS community would standardize these terms. Like you, I've historically heard the terms used in the opposite way 343 defined them in the stream.

Perhaps we should all move towards the following lingo:
  • "Reticle magnetism" - helps keep your reticle on the target.
  • "Bullet magnetism" - draws your bullets towards the target (or towards their head) even if you didn't aim directly at them (or their head).
  • "Aim assist" - is a more general term that includes both of the above, and potentially other factors (if others exist).
(edit - the formatting put a bullet below but this is a separate comment)
  • DaxSeven09 wrote:
    A6ENT C wrote:
    DaxSeven09 wrote:
    A6ENT C wrote:
    DaxSeven09 wrote:
    A6ENT C wrote:
    DaxSeven09 wrote:
    Shin Vigor wrote:
    Congratulations. You've made the AR a piece of crap.

    The Frag Grenades, meanwhile, are going to be way OP.

    I have some other minor gripes, but those are my big two.
    Did you even read or watch
    Lol, 200% increase in headshot damage isn't enough for you?
    To be fair, if you don't know the base and headshot damage values (as I'll admit I don't), a 200% increase doesn't really say much as you only have your "guesstimates" to go off of.
    200% is 200%. That's a heck of a lot. Granted we don't know exactly how this will feel yet, but basically I am commenting on him/her saying that this has ruined the weapon.

    What kills me is it's saying that the player doesn't want to be challenged. They don't want to have to be more accurate and raise their skill with a particular weapon. I didn't want the Carbine to change. I loved that thing pre update, but I am ready for the challenge.
    You're right that lessening the base damage and increasing the headshot damage (as well as making headshots harder to get) does better reward precise aim. I'm not disputing that.

    I'd just like to see the damage values and a chart showing the gaps between shots (noting time-to-shields, perfect kill, and sub-optimal kill). That information along with the knowledge that shields have 70 hp, armor has 45 hp, and melee deals 70 hp can allow for more informed suggestions.
    So basically the charts and info we have are not enough? You do realize they gave us Perfect TTK and Sub-optimal right? Maybe not all that other stuff, but hey, it's a start. They have never given us this much information before.
    Bullet spread, by definition, is randomness.
    110% this. The comment 343 made on stream that "people shouldn't get bent out of shape that we're adding randomness, because we're not" - that's a laughably false statement. Bullet spread is by definition randomness. Quinn tried to smooth over that absurd comment by saying "we shouldn't really think of it as randomness, but rather as a tool to decrease the effectiveness of weapons outside RRR" - that makes more sense. I guess the idea is that within RRR, the random spread will be counter-acted by augmented bullet magnetism, but outside RRR the deceased bullet mag will result in random spread and harder kills.
Why does everyone have a problem with the BR it is a fine weapon and i think that although it is hard to adapt from H3 to halo 5 but the thing is there was also a completely different company during that time.
eLantern wrote:
Mr Sir 81 wrote:
This update is garbage. The AR feels like I’m shooting pebbles out of a rapid fire slingshot. The feel overall is horrible.
Tip: Aim for the head and when at a distance where full auto makes accuracy difficult try pulsing or bursting the weapon's fire at the opponents head.
It’s not even that. The shots are super delayed. Almost as if I’m pressing the trigger, then there is a slight delay. Elite controller settings? Crappy update?
How does it make sense that the default Magnum has more range than the BR, Carbine, and Light Rifle? The H5 magnum is too good, and these nerfs will just make that problem worse. Several weapons were nerfed, but the Magnum was unchanged, making it even more powerful relative to the rest of the sandbox. Right now, most matches are just big Magnum-fests with a few other weapons sprinkled in. Now with these changes, the sandbox will be more harmonious EXCEPT for the Magnum, which has now been even further cemented into OPness.
DaxSeven09 wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
A6ENT C wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
Shin Vigor wrote:
Congratulations. You've made the AR a piece of crap.

The Frag Grenades, meanwhile, are going to be way OP.

I have some other minor gripes, but those are my big two.
Did you even read or watch
Lol, 200% increase in headshot damage isn't enough for you?
To be fair, if you don't know the base and headshot damage values (as I'll admit I don't), a 200% increase doesn't really say much as you only have your "guesstimates" to go off of.
200% is 200%. That's a heck of a lot. Granted we don't know exactly how this will feel yet, but basically I am commenting on him/her saying that this has ruined the weapon.

What kills me is it's saying that the player doesn't want to be challenged. They don't want to have to be more accurate and raise their skill with a particular weapon. I didn't want the Carbine to change. I loved that thing pre update, but I am ready for the challenge.
You're right that lessening the base damage and increasing the headshot damage (as well as making headshots harder to get) does better reward precise aim. I'm not disputing that.

I'd just like to see the damage values and a chart showing the gaps between shots (noting time-to-shields, perfect kill, and sub-optimal kill). That information along with the knowledge that shields have 70 hp, armor has 45 hp, and melee deals 70 hp can allow for more informed suggestions.
So basically the charts and info we have are not enough? You do realize they gave us Perfect TTK and Sub-optimal right? Maybe not all that other stuff, but hey, it's a start. They have never given us this much information before.
Don't get me wrong, I greatly appreciate what they have provided (and said as much on Page 1). I just see no harm in asking for more, do you?
I yeah absolutely, whatever info we can get the better.
I feel like perfectly accurate precision weapons was one of my biggest selling points for H5, and I'm sad to be losing that on several of them. I don't fault the reasoning behind the changes, but I do think the same goal could have been achieved through Aim-assist/Magnetism/Rate of Fire/Damage changes instead of adding randomness where previously there was none. For the time being I'm just glad HCS settings use Pistol-only starts.

Hopefully this isn't the last balance update we can move back towards spread-less precision weapons in the future.
They did do this. There is no "randonmess" as you are stating. I don't understand how slight bullet spread, compared to non is still constituted as randomness. No, there is no random added. Only that now we have to work a little harder for out Perfect kills.
Bullet spread, by definition, is randomness.
The randomness that I am speaking of is the tuning test randomness. Where the bullet trajectory was completely different than where the reticule is. The difference now is the bullet spread, what we have seen in the stream and on paper, is relegated. So in that sense it is not random. When the term random is thrown out there it is insinuating bullets still go wherever, and that's just not the case.
Sorry Dax, but I don't think you are quite understanding the characteristics of the weapon design. Previously, the Battle Rifle featured a defined linear or vertical recoil effect that impacted the bullet spread. This design was predictable and repeatable which allowed players to accurately account for the bullet spread; however, the re-tuned versions of the BR have introduced a random horizontal element that causes the weapon's bullet trajectory to haphazardly fire to the left and right within it's muzzle climb. That is randomness as the player can't accurately account for the bullet's trajectory when it is fired. While I don't have a huge issue with some randomness being applied to the BR in order to lessen its effectiveness at longer-ranges I think the amount they maintained with the "final" re-tuned version is still too great; especially, when you consider that the weapon's hip-fire RRR was reduced to being less than the Magnum and who knows by how much when Aiming-Down-Sight (ADS).
How does it make sense that the default Magnum has more range than the BR, Carbine, and Light Rifle? The H5 magnum is too good, and these nerfs will just make that problem worse. Several weapons were nerfed, but the Magnum was unchanged, making it even more powerful relative to the rest of the sandbox. Right now, most matches are just big Magnum-fests with a few other weapons sprinkled in. It was already too hard to beat a Magnum user with an AR, even at close ranges, where the AR is supposed to shine. Now with these changes, the sandbox will be more harmonious EXCEPT for the Magnum, which has now been even further cemented into OPness.
I just don't agree with you at all... and many others won't either. I have many concerns about this update, but an OP magnum is NOT one of them.

The old AR in the hands of a noob did WAY to much damage against a skilled magnum user, at many ranges. If you missed a single magnum bullet, you were dead vs. the AR, and at close ranges the AR would even beat a magnum PK. That is never how any of the classic, well-loved Halo games have played, where a skilled precision weapon user always had a solid chance to reverse lower-skilled players.
How does it make sense that the default Magnum has more range than the BR, Carbine, and Light Rifle? The H5 magnum is too good, and these nerfs will just make that problem worse. Several weapons were nerfed, but the Magnum was unchanged, making it even more powerful relative to the rest of the sandbox. Right now, most matches are just big Magnum-fests with a few other weapons sprinkled in. It was already too hard to beat a Magnum user with an AR, even at close ranges, where the AR is supposed to shine. Now with these changes, the sandbox will be more harmonious EXCEPT for the Magnum, which has now been even further cemented into OPness.
The Halo 5 Magnum is a very well crafted and designed weapon, so we ought to be very careful about insinuating the potential idea that it may require nerfing to better align its role within the sandbox. I'm not suggesting that's what you've actually said, but some may perceive that as the necessary action given your statement where as it should be clarified that the Carbine and Battle Rifle ought to be tweaked to properly align their roles to the Halo 5 Magnum.
Currently downloading the new update, i'm curious as to how things differ.
played a ciple of matches of Oddball, so far BR feels good, tho used more bullets from DMR to land a perfect headshot...around 6-7.
i dont have big complains atm.
I'm just going to say it: I hate it. It's stupid, arbitrary, and unnecessary. Especially the 50% reduction to the Battle Rifle's RoF/RPS. And this talk about "this weapon was too effective" "that weapon was too effective" drove me insane. I may be the black sheep here but I don't like these changes at all.
So now the H2 BR will be far too godly in WZ... damn it. I always liked the H5 BR's feel, but now I guess I will have to use the H2 BR... :-(
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