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[Locked] Weapon Tuning Discussion Thread

OP ske7ch

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How is this reported for spam???
I'd imagine because it has nothing to do with the weapon tuning or even H5.

It was mentioned in a different thread, but the stabilizer jets BR version is probably the best alternative to use since there is no recoil with it, but you have to wait until level 5 to get it.
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REEV GUNZ wrote:
I would pay $10 for an extra disk copy unless I can get a digital copy for the same amount.
I actually like what they've done with the BR, its definately a step in the right direction.
The SMG however...
I do not really notice much of the changes, the BR is still my favoritite killing weapon in halo.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
Man, what is it with this motion sickness thing? You guys are acting like this is the first time you used weapons with recoil. Yes, the recoil takes some getting used to, but I am having no problems with that.
Not everyone is the same. I do use weapons with recoil like the DMR plus other guns with recoil in games outside of Halo and they don't give me motion sickness like the BR does.
I was taking this as people just finding anything to be unhappy about, but I know you are not like that. You say it gives you motion sickness, and I sympathize with that. I can't imagine having to deal with that. I know you play mostly BTB. I hope it gets better for you.
On a general note about weapon tuning - I have a real problem with the way this has been executed by 343. Let me explain why.

We now have a situation where two years into the game, the bread-and-butter weapons of the game (both arena and WZ) have been fundamentally and hugely changed from their original function. Many key REQ variants of the weapons (e.g. pro pipe, blood of suban) have also changed. This requires everyone to learn both new aiming mechanics, AND a new meta game. But in the meantime, the weapons are still changing, 2 months later! When will the weapon changes be finalized so people can learn to adapt to them, and not feel like the football will suddenly be pulled away again? It takes months to really adapt to a new aiming mechanic, before you can even think about the meta adaptation. Yet we still don't know what the final "tuned" versions will be.

Personally, I totally hate the changes to the BR, Carbine, DMR, and nade launcher, and their WZ variants are now way underpowered. And the Light of Urs is terrible now too. But I don't know whether to hold out hope that some of these changes will be reverted or changed again, or to just start adapting to the new versions and hope they don't change again. I hope a lesson 343 learns from this mess is that implementing significant weapon changes so late into a game's cycle is a fool's errand. Other franchises may slightly tweak their weapons, like a 15% damage reduction here and there, but they don't take a chainsaw to 50% of the sandbox 2 years into the game...
I actually like what they've done with the BR, its definitely a step in the right direction.
The SMG however...
I think we're seeing this the same way. I updated my Tuning Feedback post to remove several of my previous concerns with regards to the H5BR, but I still feel they need to have its hip-fire Red-Reticle-Range (RRR) match that of the current standard and tactical Magnums; plus, give it an Aim-Down-Sight (ADS) RRR distance that's between the tactical Magnum and the H2BR. I also believe crouch firing should improve the recoil effect. Overall, I think it's in a slightly better place now than it was after the OT update and than it was in the tuning test playlist. In its current state I think an argument could be made to reduce its REQ value costs down by one.

The SMG is definitely the next weapon in need of further re-tuning. I personally think going back to the tuning test's larger default hip-fire spread with the ability to tighten not only the max spread but also the default spread via ADSing would be the best option for the weapon. That would need to include keeping the current head-shot multiplier and increasing the current bullet damage slightly so that the weapon can acquire a 1.0-1.1 optimal Time-to-Kill (TTK). It's the reticle magnetism, bullet magnetism, and RRRs where this weapon really needs careful, and perhaps minuscule, adjustments to ensure it plays best within it intended range role. By giving this weapon the initial larger default spread (from the hip-fire position) it forces players to use the more accurate ADS spread for improved efficiency at anything beyond near point-blank range, but that also requires more skill since a player can easily be de-scoped out of it. The SMG should possess a more lethal optimal TTK than the Assault Rifle or else it becomes a fairly useless option in comparison. Not to mention, the REQ values of the SMGs in its current state should be reduced to match those of the AR and if they improve the SMG according to what I mentioned above I think they could be settled in at similar amounts to the BR or maybe back to being one REQ level higher.

The DMR could also use some adjustments to better fit within Arena (Ranked play) and Warzone. On the smaller maps its a near pointless weapon to pick-up and try using due to its slow Rate-of-Fire (RoF) and lack, or much reduced, close/mid range aim assistance. Within Warzone its only really useful as a range weapon, which is fine, but for that limited role it doesn't need to be valued (REQ-wise) so high. Therefore, I propose that they keep all the changes to the aim assistance in order to ensure that the weapon is best used for its intended role and that its 2-shot beat-down for a kill can't be easily abused, but give players who are skilled with their aim the ability to somewhat compete with other weapons within middle-close range by improving the weapon's RoF. It doesn't need to be faster than the other precision weapons, but it shouldn't be any slower than what else is considered slow; this is why I think its optimal TTK should match that of the H2BR (1.4-ish seconds). On the REQ level side, I think in its current condition it should be valued one REQ level higher than its BR counterpart and that's only due to the fact that all Warzone maps are big. If it was given the RoF change I suggested I think its REQ value could be increased to two levels over its BR counterpart.

I remain a firm believer that the Carbine should grant players an ability to retain its previous accuracy when NOT maximizing its' spam-ability, but include the current potential spread amount when heavily spammed. This could be achieved by tying the weapon’s high RoF to a bloom feature that only kicks in when the fire-rate exceeds a certain threshold. Further concerns with the Carbine continue to relate to the reduced RRRs for the more costly REQ variant, the Blood of Suban, which should've kept the previous RRRs as its effectiveness has been noticeably and unnecessarily hindered.

The only thing needed for the gunfighter Magnum is to eliminate the random horizontal movement that can exists within the vertical recoil drift; otherwise, I think it's in a pretty good place. Similarly, I think the AR is in a pretty good place now too, but I would add that it'd be nice if Aiming-Down-Sight (ADS) provided a slightly tighter max bullet spread compared to its hip-fire amount.

The remaining changes I felt were either positive or I'm fairly indifferent about them; however, I still think the Grenade Launcher and Fuel Rod Cannon changes shouldn't have carried over to their REQ variants and that further adjustments to the Splinter Grenade would be beneficial.
I am still learning the newest BR. I am not good with it currently but trying to improve.

OG BR - Day 1 a tragic 38% accuracy/night... by year 2 58% accuracy/night
OT BR - Day 1 a tragic 40% accuracy..by month end a touch over 53% accuracy.
OT BR2 (Electric BRaloo) - Day 1 a tragic 44% and after week 1 still at 50%.

I still agree with RzR J3ST3R overall. The 2yr deep changes are still a challenging pill to swallow. I also agree the SMG is the toughest change outside the BR because it is so niche now. WZ likely took the worst hit with all of the changes because the maps are massive and the old BR's range and versatility made it an easy replacement for your starting Magnum. I am also surprised that the newest BR didn't at least match or barely beat the Magnum's RRR. The BR and Light Rifle sit at 10 while the Magnum pushes to 12. I am not saying nerf the Magnum. NO WAY. Keep the magnum as it is because Halo 5 is the Magnum. I would rather see a 12 or 13 BR instead. And if you pushed the BR to 13 I would want to see the DMR at 14.
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eLantern wrote:
I actually like what they've done with the BR, its definitely a step in the right direction.
The SMG however...
I remain a firm believer that the Carbine should grant players an ability to retain its previous accuracy when NOT maximizing its' spam-ability, but include the current potential spread amount when heavily spammed. This could be achieved by tying the weapon’s high RoF to a bloom feature that only kicked in when the fire-rate exceeded a certain threshold. Further concerns with the Carbine continue to relate to the RRRs and effectiveness of the more costly REQ variant, the Blood of Suban, which should've kept the previous RRRs.

The remaining changes I felt were either positive or I'm fairly indifferent about them; however, I still think the Grenade Launcher and Fuel Rod Cannon changes shouldn't have carried over to their REQ variants and that further adjustments to the Splinter Grenade would be beneficial.
For WZ, these points about the blood of suban, pro pipe, and light of Urs are so true. They should have retained their original properties. Those REQ variants are just such trash, now. If it's not buffed, the Fuel rod needs to be L3 now, not L4. It was already an underpowered L4 REQ even before the nerf, now it's a joke at L4. The Fury, Blissful, and Lawgiver are better at L3 than the L4 Fuel Rod. And the L3 nade launcher went from OP to underpowered, with this nerf.

How does it make sense for the Light of Urs to be on the same level as the AdVic..?? Not even a contest...
DaxSeven09 wrote:
I know you play mostly BTB. I hope it gets better for you.
Thanks. It's mainly just in Firefight when it happens. Surprisingly, it doesn't really bother me in BTB.
The reach grenede launchers are terrible now , I've used them a lot to get the commendation complete a while back and using them regularly since . They are terrible now there so random . Random is not what I want in a weapon especially a halo game . They need to be changed back . They were absolutely fine for me not sure if 343 though they were overpowered? Now there useless!!!!
The reach grenede launchers are terrible now , I've used them a lot to get the commendation complete a while back and using them regularly since . They are terrible now there so random . Random is not what I want in a weapon especially a halo game . They need to be changed back . They were absolutely fine for me not sure if 343 though they were overpowered? Now there useless!!!!
I think the right solution would have been to leave them alone but make the GL a top-tier power weapon on a 2:00 timer. The problem now is that the GL and pro-pipe are basically useless in WZ, whereas before they were useful. Maybe the GL was a little OP at L3 in WZ, but only slightly, and the L4 pro pipe was fine. Now they are both almost useless. I pretty much never call them anymore.

The story of this WHOLE "tuning" is that 343 had no appreciation for subtlety. The tree only needed a slight trim, but instead they cut the whole thing down with a chainsaw and planted some new ugly one.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
The reach grenede launchers are terrible now , I've used them a lot to get the commendation complete a while back and using them regularly since . They are terrible now there so random . Random is not what I want in a weapon especially a halo game . They need to be changed back . They were absolutely fine for me not sure if 343 though they were overpowered? Now there useless!!!!
I think the right solution would have been to leave them alone but make the GL a top-tier power weapon on a 2:00 timer. The problem now is that the GL and pro-pipe are basically useless in WZ, whereas before they were useful. Maybe the GL was a little OP at L3 in WZ, but only slightly, and the L4 pro pipe was fine. Now they are both almost useless. I pretty much never call them anymore.
I think if they were left how they were and both moved up one notch to level 4 and 5 , there would be no issue. I can't understand how adding random spread / random bouncing grenedes in a skill based game is a good idea ? Surely at conception one member of the team would have the thought to pipe up and say ....... hang on a minute random ?????? Errrrrrrr I'm not really sure random works in a competitive accuracy based skill game . But that's just me apparently!!!
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
The reach grenede launchers are terrible now , I've used them a lot to get the commendation complete a while back and using them regularly since . They are terrible now there so random . Random is not what I want in a weapon especially a halo game . They need to be changed back . They were absolutely fine for me not sure if 343 though they were overpowered? Now there useless!!!!
I think the right solution would have been to leave them alone but make the GL a top-tier power weapon on a 2:00 timer. The problem now is that the GL and pro-pipe are basically useless in WZ, whereas before they were useful. Maybe the GL was a little OP at L3 in WZ, but only slightly, and the L4 pro pipe was fine. Now they are both almost useless. I pretty much never call them anymore.
I think if they were left how they were and both moved up one notch to level 4 and 5 , there would be no issue. I can't understand how adding random spread / random bouncing grenedes in a skill based game is a good idea ? Surely at conception one member of the team would have the thought to pipe up and say ....... hang on a minute random ?????? Errrrrrrr I'm not really sure random works in a competitive accuracy based skill game . But that's just me apparently!!!
Even that would have been too much of a WZ Nerf IMO. The pro-pipe wasn't even one of the best L4 REQs -- Whiplash, Wasp, Blaze, and Voids were probably all better. And at L5 you can get an arclight, endgame, rockets, banshee, etc., all of which are better than a pro pipe. They could have just decreased the GL starting ammo and left the pro pipe 100% alone.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
The reach grenede launchers are terrible now , I've used them a lot to get the commendation complete a while back and using them regularly since . They are terrible now there so random . Random is not what I want in a weapon especially a halo game . They need to be changed back . They were absolutely fine for me not sure if 343 though they were overpowered? Now there useless!!!!
I think the right solution would have been to leave them alone but make the GL a top-tier power weapon on a 2:00 timer. The problem now is that the GL and pro-pipe are basically useless in WZ, whereas before they were useful. Maybe the GL was a little OP at L3 in WZ, but only slightly, and the L4 pro pipe was fine. Now they are both almost useless. I pretty much never call them anymore.
I think if they were left how they were and both moved up one notch to level 4 and 5 , there would be no issue. I can't understand how adding random spread / random bouncing grenedes in a skill based game is a good idea ? Surely at conception one member of the team would have the thought to pipe up and say ....... hang on a minute random ?????? Errrrrrrr I'm not really sure random works in a competitive accuracy based skill game . But that's just me apparently!!!
Even that would have been too much of a WZ Nerf IMO. The pro-pipe wasn't even one of the best L4 REQs -- Whiplash, Wasp, Blaze, and Voids were probably all better. And at L5 you can get an arclight, endgame, rockets, banshee, etc., all of which are better than a pro pipe. They could have just decreased the GL starting ammo and left the pro pipe 100% alone.
I don't know ????? the old pro pipe if you got the enemy down to one base and you knew there in it with the high ammo capacity its got I've stood outside and just spammed shots in getting loads of kills without being seen or taking damage , plus the emp can be used against vehicles made it pretty powerful at times !!!!
Randomness makes Halo 5 less skill based. Halo 5 is a skill based shooter. Please don't add random spread to the Battle Rifle and Carbine. Don't make Halo 5 less skill based.

Halo 5 is not a sim. There are other ways to make those two precision weapons less effective at long range, if that is so important. Why should some precision weapons have random spread, and others not?

Random spread was unwelcome in Halo 3, and it is unwelcome in Halo 5.

Halo 2 sword looks good.
Random spread actually increases realism and makes it more skill based. It isn't like the spread would be 180 degrees, however small bullet spread is a great idea for UNSC weapons. (Energy weapons wouldn't and shouldn't spread as their ammo is concentrated light).
You have got to be kidding me random spread makes it more skill-based? Please explain to me how a bullet randomly deciding to go somewhere besides where you want makes it more skill-based when in reality that is the exact opposite of what it does.
It increases realism, when you shoot a firearm, due to air resistance and friction, most weapons have a 0.5 to 1.0 degree spread. (At reasonable distances) I am a personal fan of realism in the game, and would love a small spread making it seem like a real weapon. Many popular games such as COD and Fallout already have spread.
realism in a syfy game.....lol......so you want th unsc weapons to shoot realistically,based on what. how should covenant weapons work.you want them to fire realistically as well,based on what. the game was fine. the battle rifle is trash.plain and simple.they should made a variant BR and created a noob playlist
DaxSeven09 wrote:
I was withholding judgement on the updated BR so that I could try it many times. The verdict is that it still sucks. It is still virtually useless. Not because it's too hard to hit things with, it's because it sucks to play with. It's no fun having the screen jump around like that. It's great if you want to induce some sort of motion sickness though. Seriously, who wants to suffer through that jerky screen movement for any period of time? Who's going to tolerate that? Not many people, that's for sure. Therefore, it is still the number one weapon to avoid using. Just admit that the BR change was a screw up, put the BR back to the perfect weapon it was, and be done with it.
Man, what is it with this motion sickness thing? You guys are acting like this is the first time you used weapons with recoil. Yes, the recoil takes some getting used to, but I am having no problems with that. It is a challenge still, and thank goodness the BR has not returned to the never miss weapon it used to be. My Perfects are well earned now, and I'm having a great time.
everyone is different.it bothers me as well. if you used the many spartan abilities an strafe, never missing wouldnt be a issue.many players
shoot flat footed. thats the problem
I liked the first tuned BR before we got this one. And that's saying something, because that one was painful to use. This one gives me a headache just trying to aim while the gun is jumping all over. Just remove the vertical recoil and any further long-distance aim assist and it should be fine.
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