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[Locked] Weapon Tuning Test - Phase Two Feedback - 9/11

OP ske7ch

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GDTaco wrote:
most of the weapons that got changed like: the Br, magnum, etc feel clunky like the maps weren't made for them...
YES. This is exactly how I feel. It's like all the dimensions of the map positions are wrong now, because all the natural positions with good angles, getaway routes, and sight lines, are outside RRR from other power positions or standard routes of travel. So the maps pretty much all play terribly because:

  1. You have to get really close to have decent kill times
  2. But that requires traveling a fair bit in the open without cover, so...
  3. You need to roam in packs to have any change of surviving in the open
  4. and grenades rule the day since the BR RRR is just about at standard grenade range. So now it's just a matter of dodging nades while you try to push enemies who are in fortified positions, and having sets of spartans clumsily shooting at each other outside RRR, doing very slow damage in teamshot at those ranges.
PLUS this update put maps like Torque and Stasis into play, which have super long sight lines way beyond the BR's RRR, which leads to all these weird clunky battles where nobody can really efficiently hit each other and the BR random bullet spread means it's super hard to tell how many shots are connecting.

I'm still playing the playlist cause I guess I'm morbidly curious... like how you can't tear your eyes away from the scene of a bad car crash... But I'd be a lot happier just going back to HCS with magnum starts.

Edit: also, the new railgun is awful. If you needed to nerf it, make the charge time longer, but don't completely eliminate the firing window. That was the whole point of the railgun. Shorten the firing window if you must, but don't remove entirely.
In my opinion, the best thing to do is this battle rifle start with the weapon tuning and a DEFAULT HALO 5 PISTOL SECONDARY. This is because it makes both weapons usable based on what you prefer.
To be honest, I really like the changes to the Battle Rifle and the Gunfighter magnum. The Battle Rifle actually takes skill to use now, and is harder to use at close ranges. I really like this and it fits its role better, plus I like the little extra challenge with trying to land your shots.

First off, I love that the Gunfighter actually has a Smart-Link module now. I also like the little extra ammo capacity in the magazine. Not entirely sure what the changes were to the Gunfighter, but I like them.

The SMG, in my opinion, got kinda butchered. But it's still usable. I'm kinda neutral on the SMG. I also like that the AR actually takes skill now too.

The Energy Sword, I'm kinda iffy about. I feel like the speed was reduced a tad too much, but I think it'll just take some time to get used too.

I haven't gotten to use the rest of the tuned weapons yet, but so far I like the new changes.
The fact that so many people on here are complaining about not getting perfect kills now shows how much more skill that gun takes to use now. Like 50% of my BR kills were perfect before. Since then I've got like 2 total. This is a good thing. The BR before was WAYYYYYYY too easy to use. This new one works exactly how the weapon should work.
Not necessarily. The BR isn't 'harder' to use because it takes more skill to aim; it's harder to use because it's inconsistent. Random bullet spread can't be controlled by skilled players with careful aim. It's just random. If you aim perfectly you hit 4-shots _sometimes_.

I'd never argue that the previous BR was balanced properly. You're right that it was much too easy to use, but that is because of bullet magnetism and aim assist at too wide of range gamut. It would have been much better to dial both down and keep the accuracy of the weapon (which would have made it more difficult to find and track a target but still rewarded sill) than to add random spread.
The spread only takes place outside of the weapons intended range. If you are using the weapon where it is meant to be used it doesn't have that problem. One of the things that 343i said they wanted to do with this test is reduce the BR's effectiveness in all ranges, and I think that this is a very good way to do that. At mid range I don't have any problems.
DaxSeven09 wrote:
The fact that so many people on here are complaining about not getting perfect kills now shows how much more skill that gun takes to use now. Like 50% of my BR kills were perfect before. Since then I've got like 2 total. This is a good thing. The BR before was WAYYYYYYY too easy to use. This new one works exactly how the weapon should work.
Not necessarily. The BR isn't 'harder' to use because it takes more skill to aim; it's harder to use because it's inconsistent. Random bullet spread can't be controlled by skilled players with careful aim. It's just random. If you aim perfectly you hit 4-shots _sometimes_.
I'd never argue that the previous BR was balanced properly. You're right that it was much too easy to use, but that is because of bullet magnetism and aim assist at too wide of range gamut. It would have been much better to dial both down and keep the accuracy of the weapon (which would have made it more difficult to find and track a target but still rewarded sill) than to add random spread.
Okay, here is my main question/concern I have been having since this test started. One thing I am proud of/curious about why is my accuracy staying about the same as before the test, and in some games better. I am a mid Plat player, basically middle of the road. You are an Onyx/Champ player, but if you looked at our stats for this playlis,t even if I have played more games than you, why is my accuracy better?
Something that I have discovered is that with the drawn out 1v1's I am actually relaxing a little more. It's like I know I can out shoot them, and even though they might have the drop on me I know I have a fighting chance to turn the tide and get a Reversal. I don't know what it means. I am just a lowly Platinum, but I am still enjoying this test.
Sure I play at a higher level, but I'm not going to patronize you. Could be a lot of reasons if it's arsenal-wide—how many autos we use or don't, and how the servers behave (not sure if you're east or west coast, but I live on both and every time I come west my KD and accuracy drop hugely). Also, the hitbox at the head is smaller than the torso ... so if you tend to aim midway up the target and I aim for the head, random spread could have a larger effect for me.
Simplest explanation is, my aim is worse than yours X ) Thankfully lots of different skills go into being good at this game, heheh.
And yet you managed still to...

Anyways, my main point isn't about who is more skillful at the game. I didn't do very well with explaining that. My point was and still is why are some players doing well, and enjoying the tuning playlist and others are not? You say, "Random bullet spread can't be controlled by skilled players with careful aim.", and then say that the differences of our stats could have a lot of reasons. So which is it? Is it bullet spread or is it the "arsenal-wide" reasons that you sighted?

I will admit there does seem to be some type of random thing going on. I can't put my finger on it, and I don't know if others have been able to either. Earlier today I watched a video of Proximity's where he isn't even sure what's going on with the BR. He knows for sure he doesn't like it. I really don't think it is all about randomness. I think a lot of it has to do with players, who are use to the old BR, and winning more often than not, get frustrated and say it's the weapon. I don't think enough players are giving it a real chance, a real test. I think you need to play at least 20 games before really being able to give solid feedback.

By the way:
85 games
910 Kills
563 Headshots
440 BR Kills 52% accuracy with 34 Perfections....hehe. I guess I just have a lot of random luck going on.
Alright, about the gunfighter. I just finished a few matches and have been studying the changes and yes I'll admit it is still hard to line up because of its rate of fire, but I will tell you what. After a bunch of practice I've gotten a lot better using it and don't think it's all that bad anymore. Same with BR. It feels more of a skill weapon than a random chance weapon. I do think it is awesome that it feels like headshots actually matter more than ever now. What I'm trying to say is that you can definetlly tell the difference in your gameplay wheather you aim at the head or not.
erickyboo wrote:
Apoll0 wrote:
erickyboo wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
erickyboo wrote:
Another thing to consider too would be how these radical changes are going to put off a lot of people and probably make them not want to play. A lot of people are more than likely just going to stop wanting to play it all together, and that's unhealthy. If anything we need more CONTENT. Content to make things fresher, to bring people back, even now the social playlists are very meager in offering. Sure, having less populated playlists might not be the best, but also... people probably aren't going to play if the content isn't there in the first place... And with changes like this? I'm pretty sure a few of my friends wouldn't want to continue playing... That's another thing to think about too.
I agree more content would be nice, but we need changes for these weapons as well. I don't see how these are that drastic of a change to make players want to leave. Sure it changes things up a bit. We have to learn something new, but isn't that refreshing things a bit as well?
These are drastic changes, the battle rifle behaves sooo much differently, kind of like the halo 3 battle rifle, and that's not a compliment. That's a bad thing. The weapon sandbox gets torn up. Like, halo 5 weapons feel precise, exact, correct, for the most part. This just throws that out, and yes there's people who don't like this at all who wouldn't want to play this anymore. They might not voice themselves on the forums, but they are there. Not all changes are good. These changes just make the game feel so unfun... And it will for many people.
So are you advocating to go back to the original BR, or just remove the spread entirely, remove the randomness and make it linear, etc? i think those are the kinds of comments that this thread needs.

Personally, all i think the BR needed was a reduction in Aim assist and magnetism. Maybe a slight increase in the time between the bullets per burst, (NOT the overall fire rate). Its extra-slow and random now. which is bollocks.
These tunes are not very good, if you're going to retune it a bit, maybe a few things like a small reduction in aim assist I guess or something. But I don't mind the original one too much, remember that these are game wide changes... that will affect firefight too, campaign too, warzone too, infection too.
Even more people I know wouldn't want to play it with these current settings.
Why is the original, op BR a good thing? Don't get me wrong. I wasn't really excited about changes coming to the BR. I was comfortable with how it performed even if people were saying it was too easy to use. But now that this test has happened, and I have had a chance using a weapon that is slightly more difficult I am okay with the challenge.

I could very well be wrong. I am in the minority, and I am okay with that. I just don't see that there is truly a random aspect to this. I think we have gotten used to and enjoy the ease of the original BR, and it's just hard to go back.
DaxSeven09 wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
The fact that so many people on here are complaining about not getting perfect kills now shows how much more skill that gun takes to use now. Like 50% of my BR kills were perfect before. Since then I've got like 2 total. This is a good thing. The BR before was WAYYYYYYY too easy to use. This new one works exactly how the weapon should work.
Not necessarily. The BR isn't 'harder' to use because it takes more skill to aim; it's harder to use because it's inconsistent. Random bullet spread can't be controlled by skilled players with careful aim. It's just random. If you aim perfectly you hit 4-shots _sometimes_.
I'd never argue that the previous BR was balanced properly. You're right that it was much too easy to use, but that is because of bullet magnetism and aim assist at too wide of range gamut. It would have been much better to dial both down and keep the accuracy of the weapon (which would have made it more difficult to find and track a target but still rewarded sill) than to add random spread.
Okay, here is my main question/concern I have been having since this test started. One thing I am proud of/curious about why is my accuracy staying about the same as before the test, and in some games better. I am a mid Plat player, basically middle of the road. You are an Onyx/Champ player, but if you looked at our stats for this playlis,t even if I have played more games than you, why is my accuracy better?

Something that I have discovered is that with the drawn out 1v1's I am actually relaxing a little more. It's like I know I can out shoot them, and even though they might have the drop on me I know I have a fighting chance to turn the tide and get a Reversal. I don't know what it means. I am just a lowly Platinum, but I am still enjoying this test.
Sure I play at a higher level, but I'm not going to patronize you. Could be a lot of reasons if it's arsenal-wide—how many autos we use or don't, and how the servers behave (not sure if you're east or west coast, but I live on both and every time I come west my KD and accuracy drop hugely). Also, the hitbox at the head is smaller than the torso ... so if you tend to aim midway up the target and I aim for the head, random spread could have a larger effect for me.

Simplest explanation is, my aim is worse than yours X ) Thankfully lots of different skills go into being good at this game, heheh.
And yet you managed still to be...

Anyways, my main point isn't about who is more skillful at the game. I didn't do very well with explaining that. My point was and still is why are some players doing well, and enjoying the tuning playlist and others are not? You say, "Random bullet spread can't be controlled by skilled players with careful aim.", and then say that the differences of our stats could have a lot of reasons. So which is it? Is it bullet spread or is the "arsenal-wide" reasons that you sighted?

I will admit there does seem to be some type of random thing going on. I can't put my finger on it, and I don't know if others have been able to either. Earlier today I watched a video of Proximity's where he isn't even sure what's going on with the BR. He knows for sure he doesn't like it. I really don't think it is all about randomness. I think a lot of it has to do with players, who are use to the old BR, and winning more often than not, get frustrated and say it's the weapon. I don't think enough players are giving it a real chance, a real test. I think you need to play at least 20 games before really being able to give good feedback.

By the way:
85 games
910 Kills
563 Headshots
440 BR Kills 52% accuracy with 34 Perfections....hehe. I guess I just have a lot of random luck going on.
I might add that strongholds is my best gametype, and I usually have terrible accuracy and a terrible K/D, because when I play strongholds, I need a reason to kill an enemy, and those come up less often than they should, most likely.
So I have kept going with the playlist putting as much time as I can into it and it feels like I may have already gotten used to the new changes to the BR. My shot is more accurate than when I started and I feel like I'm not missing as much and even managed to get a perfect every once in a very long while. The BR is also not feeling like it completely destroys, as I don't feel like I'm destroying someone or usually just being destroyed. Although I think teams are seemingly focusing fire a little more than usual to quickly kill their opponents(usually me).
Ok here we go:
BR: It feels so wrong , its not about your aim.Its useless in long range and in mid range it barely works , my hands usually hurt after playing a ton of octagon , but after one hour of playing this playlist my hands hurted too. The BR fights are too sweaty and they take so long. I would recommend less recoil.
Raligun: I mean it would work if the raligun was like this since day one.But you cant just change a gun like that. After 2 years , at least myself, players developed timing with guns at a point that its almost involuntary to time perfectly a raligun kill. I cant count how many times i didnt get a kill because i didnt hold the trigger enough time. And it wasnt only me , i survived 1v1 encounters against raliguns because of the same problems.
And honestly i couldnt care less bout the gunfighter magnum, its not fun to play with that gun , if i can grab a normal magnum and get easier kills , whats the point of the gunfighter mangum?
Lunge is still a problem for me. And not only with swords , why do normal melee has such a long lunge?
One more thing, why the hell is there splinter nades in this playlist? Seriously what the hell.
And before you guy Say than im just trash , i currently play against champion and onyx players.
I LIKE IT A LOT. Better hold on target with a stronger head shot. much smoother response. yet focused. Thanx 4 the added spanx. C U on the field. BDK7
I LIKE IT A LOT. Better hold on target with a stronger head shot. much smoother response. yet focused. Thanx 4 the added spanx. C U on the field. BDK7
omarlotrc wrote:
The BR is terrible now. It is super shakey. Shots don't hit and it is extremely inconsistent. I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say we DO NOT want these changes to take effect for the BR. Please put the BR back to normal. Do not put your own mix into the guns. We have been playing with the same BR for 2 years and these changes are random and not even needed. Please put the BR back to normal.
There are many who enjoy the new BR, so you don't speak for "all of us".

I do agree that the tuning done to the BR is a bit too much. The recoil, or whatever that shaky effect is, is a little too disorienting. I'd suggest turning it down a notch.
Majority of what Ive read has been negative feed back on the BR. It does not seem a lot of people enjoy it lol. To each its own, everyone has their own opinion but I just know too much spread has been applied to the gun when what I think should have been done was just a decrease in aim assist which would make the user of the gun have to focus more on their shots. I would prefer it that way instead of the recoiled added and giant spread added. Gun to me is way too random I hit all my shots on a person standing still and their shields don't break so I think there is an issue with the tuning nonsense. Again this is just how I feel along with the 22 other people who agreed and Im sure there are more who feel the exact same way.
I've spoken to many people on Xbox LIVE and several of them told me they like the changes.

I, like you, don't like the changes very much. But it's important not to say things like "I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say -insert argument here-". That's all I'm saying. :)
BR feels really great, so does Carbine, SMG is bae.

Only played with silenced AR, and didin't like the way it felt. close range BR>AR in so many cases (with the silenced one, i've noticed..)

Haven't had the chance to see the Railgun :(
I appreciate the way you are goin on about the BR, but it is very inconsistent, and near impossible to get hit markers, the burst rate is way to low, and it feels shaky, and slow. Even if you're keeping it this way, at least find a way to make it less shaky, and fix the sounds, as it is very "off" with the current burst rate you guys are using. Thank you for Halo 5 a better place.
No no no! This update sucks! Especially the BR! Don't you dare to change it!

No one tell you to change the weapons! We just you the weapons like they was before!
Actually a lot of people we're asking to change it. 343I is trying to make the weapons work in a more classic manner, they're more than likely doing live feedback now for the sake of Halo 6 so Halo 6's launch is better.
Why make it work in a more classic manner if they already have the H2 BR in the game is my thinking.. why even adjust the H5 BR they should just leave it as is and just make a playlist with H2 BR starts and that'll be the end of this whole tuning update lol... IDK there is just too much being done to the H5 BR that isn't needed. Ive said it a lot in 2 post already but all that needs to be done to the H5 BR is just reduce the aim assist and nothing more in my opinion.
My bet is the Halo 2 BR won't be making a return. But the Standard BR will be. I agree on why they just done use the Halo 2 BR. I would like it if they put the Halo 4 BR design but used the Animations and feels of the Halo 2 BR.
I like BR starts much better with the nerf than before it, for sure. But I think I still prefer magnum starts? The spread is frustrating. The recoil and rof feel better but I'm getting ptsd flashbacks from h3 with the spread. Sometimes I can't kill a 1 shot 5meters away but I'll get a random perfect across the map. It's not very satisfying, it just feels lucky at some point.

If it's still too strong with normal spread than get rid of the "sticky" aim like they did with the DMR.
No no no! This update sucks! Especially the BR! Don't you dare to change it!

No one tell you to change the weapons! We just you the weapons like they was before!
Actually a lot of people we're asking to change it. 343I is trying to make the weapons work in a more classic manner, they're more than likely doing live feedback now for the sake of Halo 6 so Halo 6's launch is better.
tbh, im actually looking forward to halo 6 now, this weapon tuning has brought the fun back. the best change for me is the radar. It gives sprint a place in halo. halo 5 really has just been one big massive beta. My only suggestion to make the best possible halo is to make the weapons projectile based like halo 3 and swap the pistol for the AR. i feel the loadout should have an easy weapon(AR) and a hard weapon(BR)
A lot of pro's back in the MLG days of Bungie said the BR and AR was a really good start. Since 343I is trying to go classic I would agree that BR and AR starts should return in competitive playlists. However for Special modes such as Breakout should be SMG and Magnum.

  • Social Slayer: AR & Magnum
  • Competitive Arena: BR & AR (Or Enable Halo Reach/4's load-out system)
  • Warzone: AR & one of the 4 basic precision weapons (BR,Carbine,DMR,Lightrifle)
  • Breakout: SMG & Magnum
  • Competitive Tournament Arena (Aka ranked): BR & Magnum
  • Infection: Shotgun
  • Rumble Pit: Loadout system
That would be my ideal weapon starts. Especially if I was a Dev of Halo. of course they can be tweaked to fit their maps better, but Halo had a lot of this similarity.
We had a discussion on Reddit about comparing the two BR's that I think would be helpful.

https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/703kg8/the_new_br_vs_the_old_br_out_with_the_old_in_with?sort=confidence

Example of BR spread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/6zo3e1/so_the_hew_br_has_random_spread?sort=confidence

Personally I think it would be best to make the BR have no spread, and instead making the bullets fired projectiles rather than hitscan. This will reduce the weapons effectiveness at longer ranges while also making it consistent. You guys nailed the fire rate and the aiming of the new BR. Feels much nicer to use now. A moderately quick projectile like the CE pistol would be amazing though if possible.

All the weapons in this tuning update are better than their previous incarnations which is nice.

The AR was definitely the best change. Now the weapon is forgiving enough for new players, but at the same time players won't be rewarded for mindlessly spraying at mid range. It also allows for good counterplay against it by the BR and other precision weapons. The only improvement that I think the AR could have is removing the headshot damage modifiers. Having the headshot modifier leads to the AR being a bit inconsistent. By being a spray and pray weapon having headshot modifiers means that a lot of bullets will randomly be hitting the head and or the body. If the AR was laser accurate I could excuse the headshot modifier but otherwise it's just not satisfying.

SMG could be toned down a bit on kill time. The range nerf is perfect, but it still kills too fast to be fun to fight against.

The Grenade Launcher I feel needs more tuning. Currently the projectile actually homes at players even if the enemy player isn't in red reticle. https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/703jau/this_is_what_the_tuning_update_should_have_fixed/ Need to get rid of the magnetism on the projectile entirely. Also the radius on the explosive range needs to be about 70% of what it currently is. Currently there is little counterplay against it because this range is to big. Players need to be able to dodge this projectile WITHOUT a thrust.

Even though the reg pistol wasn't in this tuning update. I'd prefer if the pistol had a slightly slower fire rate but took four headshots to kill. This would encourage players to pay attention to their shot placement and discourage spamming the trigger. It also would increase effectiveness of strafing in battles. For whatever reason, aiming with the pistol doesn't feel stable at close range. It feels like the aimer skips past enemies within close range. The new BR feels much more stable. If that aiming stability was on the pistol. That'd be amazing.
After around 40 games, I can say that i really like the changes. For the BR I like the slower rate of fire, the range has been reduced some but honestly i would like to see the range get nerfed a bit more, as it is still to easy to melt someone from across the map. I also really love the radar changes. Cant wait for this tuned br to be implemented to big team battle.
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