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[Locked] Weapon Tuning Test - Phase Two Feedback - 9/11

OP ske7ch

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MAGNACROW wrote:
the dmr, battle rifle,and pistol need to tuned a bit more the accuracy when im moving fast feels like it is lacking.
Perhaps you should explain what you mean by "moving fast". Or else the common sense answer would be "If moving fast is lowering your accuracy, then how about slowing down?"
GX57 wrote:
I played it once and I'm honestly not a fan of BR starts. It feels like the bursts are off timed and its hard to perfect. The game got me upset, I'm not going to lie. These "tunes" are disappointing and the game was better without it.
My advice, play more than one game of the retuned weapons, you're not going to get a good picture of the changes without playing multiple games and trying to understand the newer versions of them
Whats the big deal in arena or slayer with the BR having a long range when its a pick up gun? But now its a starting weapon.Now lets have a look at the main maps.
Colliseum. 1 Br in the middle
Plaza 1 Br at each base
Truth 1 Br and 1 carbine
Torque 1Br on each side
fathom 1 Br on each side
regret 1 Br on each side.
So does not matter how powerfull or what range it has its balanced
I guess the new BR has a H3 type of spread to it. I love the notion of lowering the auto-aim and I love how 343i is balancing the weapons with one another, trying to make them role specific (GF mag, BR, DMR). But if they would just maybe remove the random spread and make the bullets a little slower to where you would have to lead them than I think 343i could leave everything else as is and this would be my favorite way to play Halo.
I've only played 10 matches so far,so these are only my intial impressions.

- I feel like having BR starts defeats the point of a lot of these changes. The BR is less good up close, which is a good thing, since it makes it less omnipresent in utility... except since the player spawns with a BR now, it means that close range encounters are awkward. And since the player spawns with the BR, the extra usage that the AR and other automatics (especially the SMG, with it's range nerf) would have gotten out of the BR being less good up close is wasted as since as everybody already has one, the BR gets used by everybody anyways: So precision weapons are omnipresent, except there's even less variety in usage then before, since the carbine, light rifle, etc get picked up less since everybody already has the BR on hand

- Furthermore, the BR appears to have random spread. This is a bad thing. I get that the idea is to make it less good at long range, but replace this with more recoil instead while keeping the actual spread level at zero

- I initially thought the SMG might have been nerfed a bit too hard range wise, but I think it's fine. Perhaps the spread gain curve could be adjuisted though so the first 5 shots or so don't give you as much spread as the shots after it compared to as now, to incentivize bursting. (EDITED)- Likewise, while the AR needed full auto spraying nerfed, this might have gone too far alone: it's good that unskilled spraying is being punished, but accurate burst fire needs to be rewarded more and be better. Either do the same thing I suggested with the SMG here, and have the first few shots have reduced spread game, or have them deal extra damage, or bring back the headshot bonus on shields (with bodyshot damage reduced, and with the bonus scaling inversely with spread, so if somebody is spraying and the spread is maxxed out they won't get a headshot bonus even if they land it), just do something to make actually skilled, accurate, aimed burst fire be better to compensate for spraying being worse.
Having played more:

- Having used the AR more, I think that even just for nerfing spraying, the adjustsments to spread gain went too far here: Even while burst firing, you can accrue too much spread too fast. Make it so that spread dissapates faster, and that the first 5-6 shots with the AR in a burst/firing sequence has a reduced amount of spread gain. I know at least the first 2-3 do, but reduce it further and have more then just them be reduced.

- I also really think there needs to be AR starts even more then before: Now that the AR is less easily good at a distance, it's less worth using then it was before, but it's also now a pickup and you have the BR to begin with, which makes the AR as a pickup even less appealing to use. The BR being a starting weapon also cancels out it's own nerfs to make it less onmnipresent, especially with so little weapons on maps and pretty much all of them (SMG, DMR, etc) being nerfed.

- There's a lack of weapon variety in general because why switch when you have the BR to begin with, even with the BR's nerfs? With AR/magnum starts you solve everything: The AR/SMG changes work as intended, with the SMG no longer being a straight upgrade, and while the BR, Carbine, etc are no longer straight upgrades either, since the AR is less easily useful as a range, there's still plenty a reason to pick them up

- Even putting aside the unwinglines to pick weapons up due to having a BR to begin with, there's too few weapons on maps: there needs to be a larger variety.

- The gunfighter magnum has way too much recoil and spread.
On top of all of what i've already said here (which I still thing rings true): having attempted to use the AR more, I am even more convinced that the changes have made it not worth using, even if as somebody who doesn't spray and attempts to use accurate, timed bursts.

It is not merely that the added spread went too far and negatively impacted 4-5 round bursts that shouldn't have been( though that too): Even when bursting a ranges where the spread accuring too much isn't an issue or where you limit it to such short bursts it's not, there's simply not enough DPS to make it worth it due to needing to stop firing so often: The magnum and BR, which everybody spawns with, are far better in the DPS race with how often you need to stop firing even up to astonishingly close ranges.

So, in addition to increasing the rate at which spread resets and reducing the spread the first 4-5 shots cause, I also suggest that something be done to up the effective DPS of those first few shots in a burst: bringing back the headshot bonus on shields from the betas I suggested before; or Lowering the rate of fire and/or magazine count of the AR but upping the damage (which should help accurate bursts moreso then spraying, since the lower fire rate will have spread more of a chance to disspiate and by increasing the cost of missed shots) or something like that. It almost seems like the AR actually got a damage nerf, which if so, absolutely needs to be undone.

Lastly, having used the SMG more, I think it's pretty good where you guys have it, don't mess with it further other then perhaps something to encourage bursting more: any further nerfs could make it too niche in range.

In summary:
  • Remove Spread from the BR, replace it with extra recoil. The BR needed to be less good at super long ranges, but spread isn't the answer
  • Make the first 4-5 shots in a burst with the AR have reduced spread gain, and increase the rate at which spread dissipates, as well as something to up the DPS of accurate bursts but not spraying, such as higher bullet damage but a lower fire rate. The nerf to full auto spraying with the AR was good, but it goes a bit too far and also makes accurate bursts worse, and needing to burst more often means that it does not sustain enough DPS to be competitive at even closer ranges with the BR and Magnum even if all the shots land, let alone be worth picking up.
  • Switch back to AR/Magnum starts. This way, the fact that the SMG, Br, Carbine, and DMR all got nerfs to be more role specific rather then straight upgrades over the magnum/AR actually matters and you have a reason to seek out weapons; With BR starts, there isn't really a reason to pick up the carbine or DMR because you already have a gun for long distance, and there's not really a reason to pick up an AR since the SMG is better for close up, and the BR you already have is better for medium.
  • Gunfighter magnum is too weak and doesn't get usage at all. The faster firing speed over the default magnum feels nice, but it's too inaccurate and does too little damage. Given that I already suggest switching back to the normal magnum, there's not much to say here, other then that I wouldn't mind the normal magnum being tuned to be a tad closer to this one without going all the way: Maybe taking one more shot to kill, but having a proportionally higher rate of fire so it has the same DPS but just feels slicker due to the faster fire rate.
  • The SMG is fine where it is due to the changes, don't adjust it further, it's already almost pushing with the range reduction
I'm quite happy with the changes, even though some (namely the battle rifle) took a while to get used to.

The battle rifle is, in my opinion, set up much more like what it should have been to start with. It's not a killer close range gun, but it works and you can get things done, it's -Yoink- at mid range, and just meh at long range. How it should be. Perhaps the randomness should be removed from the burst spread.

The starting combo works well. The GF magnum functions nice up close, so it means we still have a skill gap for close up work, more so than with the AR.

The changes to the rail gun are the only real mistake. I've seen people try and fail to use it because of the changes to how it works. It fit well into the sandbox since you only had 4-5 shots before but now it has been made a lot more underwhelming.

The SMG nerf to range is fantastic, it got me killed first time around but now, every gun really excells more at its own role.
Batchford wrote:
I also haven't really notice a huge change in the AR/SMG, AR especially. It still shreds especially if you get the first couple of bullets on the enemy. Smart Scoping with the AR especially still has really good range.
Apoll0 wrote:
AR: This still feels like it can destroy too easily. a slow tap-fire (release every 4 or 5 bullets) keeps the spread under control and still extends the range significantly.
I really disagree with this: Firstly, the fact that 4-5 round bursts extends the range and that it does better if you get the first shots off on the enemy is the entire point of the gun: It's an automatic weapon that is capable of enaging at medium-close or even medium range if you use accurate bursts, and is especially good at getting kills on enemies you have the drop on, that's why there's a silencer on it.

You guys just seem to want it to only be good up close, which is what the SMG exists for.

All of that being said, The AR isn't even worth using right now. Before, full auto spraying was absolutely too good, to the point where you were better off spraying then using accurate bursts, but now even though you need to use bursts to use it past point blank range, it's not even worth it due to how low the DPS is relative to the BR even at closer ranges. It's still better then the BR/Magnum at point blank range, but then you don't need to burst anyways, so there goes trying to reward skill with it, which is what the point of it's changes were; and at that range you are better off with an SMG anyways.

Right now the AR is stuck at a place where the SMG is better then it up close and the BR is better then it at medium range, and it's not good enough at the distances in between relative to either of them to be worth picking up relative to sticking with the BR or picking up the SMG instead.

Apoll0 wrote:
Close Range - fighting up close with this weapon feels artificially difficult. Cant tell if its the aiming, the Aim Assist changes or a combination.
TLDR; The problem with the BR was that it would aim for you and bend bullets around corners. Those issues have been resolved, but then a bunch of other unnecessary -Yoink- was done on top of that. KISS.
This is a good thing, as is, the BR is still too good up close relative to the AR.
Assault Rifle- Seems like you guys increased the spread, reduced its aim assist and reduced the recoil. These changes can stay, its RRR (Red Reticle Range) should be 24m. which I believe the H5 AR is. However Smart Link kind of breaks this weapon's range and shouldn't be a thing on automatic weapons in future Halo games. Maybe have the hip fire range be 21m and Smart Link can bring it up to 24m. I'm not sure if you guys can do this, but it would help if you guys can decrease the Mag. capacity from 36 to 32. Lastly headshot bonuses on automatic weapons shouldn't be a thing, they should be removed from H5 and shouldn't be included in future Halo games.
Why wouldn't you want a headshot bonus when that gives it more of a skillgap? The entire point of the changes made to the AR here according to 343i was to reward skilled usage more.

Also, as is, the AR's range has been significantly cut down due to the spread changes, to the point where it's not even worth picking up due to how much worse it is at a distance and since you start with a BR now, which is better at a distance, and as a close up gun, the SMG is a better pickup option. To say that smart scope "breaks the weapons range" is ridiclious when the entire point of the AR is that it's a range capable automatic: It needs it more then ever now.

Do you guys seriously want to go back to the days of past halo titles where the automatic weapons were so bad there was zero reason to ever use them? I get that you don't want easy to use unskilled guns to be super good, but then the solution should be making them reward skill more.
The AR was definitely the best change. Now the weapon is forgiving enough for new players, but at the same time players won't be rewarded for mindlessly spraying at mid range. It also allows for good counterplay against it by the BR and other precision weapons. The only improvement that I think the AR could have is removing the headshot damage modifiers. Having the headshot modifier leads to the AR being a bit inconsistent. By being a spray and pray weapon having headshot modifiers means that a lot of bullets will randomly be hitting the head and or the body. If the AR was laser accurate I could excuse the headshot modifier but otherwise it's just not satisfying.

Firstly, the entire point of 343i's changes here was to make the AR *not* a spray and pray weapon. That being said, there's an easy solution to the concern of accidental headshots: Make the headshot bonus scale inversely with spread. This way, only shots that were made when the player's aim was on point will get rewarded with a bonus. If anything, i'd say the headshot bonus the AR had on shields from the beta should come back in addition to doing the above, to give it even more of a skillgap and further reward bursting.

I really also disagree with you saying it was the best change: I'd say the AR changes were the worst ones. To be sure, full auto spraying with the AR needed to be nerfed, but accurate, burst fire with it needed to be *better*, since the lower DPS from burst firing puts it at a disadvantage, and not only was that not made better, it was made worse due to the increase in spread still affecting bursts. There's zero reason to seek out the AR as a pickup when the BR beats it not only at mid range, but also into close mid now due to the AR's lessened range, and as a close up gun, the AR is outclassed by the SMG: so why would you ever use it?

You talk about the increased counterplay options the precisoon weapons have against the AR as a good thing, the AR certainly doesn't have the same degree of counterplay aginast them in their range even if the AR user uses accurate bursts.
The AR was definitely the best change. Now the weapon is forgiving enough for new players, but at the same time players won't be rewarded for mindlessly spraying at mid range. It also allows for good counterplay against it by the BR and other precision weapons. The only improvement that I think the AR could have is removing the headshot damage modifiers. Having the headshot modifier leads to the AR being a bit inconsistent. By being a spray and pray weapon having headshot modifiers means that a lot of bullets will randomly be hitting the head and or the body. If the AR was laser accurate I could excuse the headshot modifier but otherwise it's just not satisfying.

Firstly, the entire point of 343i's changes here was to make the AR *not* a spray and pray weapon. That being said, there's an easy solution to the concern of accidental headshots: Make the headshot bonus scale inversely with spread. This way, only shots that were made when the player's aim was on point will get rewarded with a bonus. If anything, i'd say the headshot bonus the AR had on shields from the beta should come back in addition to doing the above, to give it even more of a skillgap and further reward bursting.

I really also disagree with you saying it was the best change: I'd say the AR changes were the worst ones. To be sure, full auto spraying with the AR needed to be nerfed, but accurate, burst fire with it needed to be *better*, since the lower DPS from burst firing puts it at a disadvantage, and not only was that not made better, it was made worse due to the increase in spread still affecting bursts. There's zero reason to seek out the AR as a pickup when the BR beats it not only at mid range, but also into close mid now due to the AR's lessened range, and as a close up gun, the AR is outclassed by the SMG: so why would you ever use it?

You talk about the increased counterplay options the precisoon weapons have against the AR as a good thing, the AR certainly doesn't have the same degree of counterplay aginast them in their range even if the AR user uses accurate bursts.
ar should be a starting weapon, smg is something you pick up when you want to upgrade your assault rifle.
A buddy of mine suggested to try out the weapon tuning playlist so we gave it a try and within the first few seconds, I already noticed and didn't like the fact that the BR shoots so much slower now and it takes way longer to kill someone as if its ridiculously nerfed. if this is the true tuning I'd be pretty upset as there are so many other weapons that desperately needs to be nerfed way more than the BR.

is it just my mind playing tricks on me or have anybody else noticed this?
Unfortunatlynthisbis BR all the time... but those new maps are cool
SGO SMACK wrote:
What does the randomness of this new BR spread do to players with high latency issues? My guess is people with below average connections are screwed.
what you hit on your screen will count regardless of connection. the only thing latency really affects is movement. you know the "im behind a wall but you still shot me" scenerio. this is one reason i like p2p in halo 3. it connects you to people close to your area. sure p2p can be manipulated and abused by players but i was ok with it as i never really had any issues. think about how much you trade shots in halo 5 and end up killing each other. its because players are too far away from the servers. halo 5 could solves this by adding lots more servers in more areas.
That's is simply not true. I've sniped people dead in the head and nothing has happened. I have also missed my snipe by a good margin and received credit for a headshot. There are quite a few videos online showing it happen.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
GDTaco wrote:
most of the weapons that got changed like: the Br, magnum, etc feel clunky like the maps weren't made for them...
YES. This is exactly how I feel. It's like all the dimensions of the map positions are wrong now, because all the natural positions with good angles, getaway routes, and sight lines, are outside RRR from other power positions or standard routes of travel. So the maps pretty much all play terribly because:

  1. You have to get really close to have decent kill times
  2. But that requires traveling a fair bit in the open without cover, so...
  3. You need to roam in packs to have any change of surviving in the open
  4. and grenades rule the day since the BR RRR is just about at standard grenade range. So now it's just a matter of dodging nades while you try to push enemies who are in fortified positions, and having sets of spartans clumsily shooting at each other outside RRR, doing very slow damage in teamshot at those ranges.
PLUS this update put maps like Torque and Stasis into play, which have super long sight lines way beyond the BR's RRR, which leads to all these weird clunky battles where nobody can really efficiently hit each other and the BR random bullet spread means it's super hard to tell how many shots are connecting.

I'm still playing the playlist cause I guess I'm morbidly curious... like how you can't tear your eyes away from the scene of a bad car crash... But I'd be a lot happier just going back to HCS with magnum starts.

Edit: also, the new railgun is awful. If you needed to nerf it, make the charge time longer, but don't completely eliminate the firing window. That was the whole point of the railgun. Shorten the firing window if you must, but don't remove entirely.
honestly the new railgun is not worth the time to pick up.
GX57 wrote:
I played it once and I'm honestly not a fan of BR starts. It feels like the bursts are off timed and its hard to perfect. The game got me upset, I'm not going to lie. These "tunes" are disappointing and the game was better without it.
My advice, play more than one game of the retuned weapons, you're not going to get a good picture of the changes without playing multiple games and trying to understand the newer versions of them
no dont worry I played multiple matches on different accounts. The changes are no good
What happens on btb maps like Viking if these changes are pushed though? Good luck killing the gauss gunner. Kids can barely kill me now.

what happens with br battles in all that open space? People will run out of bullets before dropping someone to half shields.

this whole idea is nonsense. By fixing one imaginary problem, you are going to create a bunch of new real problems.
SGO SMACK wrote:
SGO SMACK wrote:
What does the randomness of this new BR spread do to players with high latency issues? My guess is people with below average connections are screwed.
what you hit on your screen will count regardless of connection. the only thing latency really affects is movement. you know the "im behind a wall but you still shot me" scenerio. this is one reason i like p2p in halo 3. it connects you to people close to your area. sure p2p can be manipulated and abused by players but i was ok with it as i never really had any issues. think about how much you trade shots in halo 5 and end up killing each other. its because players are too far away from the servers. halo 5 could solves this by adding lots more servers in more areas.
That's is simply not true. I've sniped people dead in the head and nothing has happened. I have also missed my snipe by a good margin and received credit for a headshot. There are quite a few videos online showing it happen.
maybe when the connection is really unstable, -Yoink- happens
GDTaco wrote:
GX57 wrote:
I played it once and I'm honestly not a fan of BR starts. It feels like the bursts are off timed and its hard to perfect. The game got me upset, I'm not going to lie. These "tunes" are disappointing and the game was better without it.
My advice, play more than one game of the retuned weapons, you're not going to get a good picture of the changes without playing multiple games and trying to understand the newer versions of them
no dont worry I played multiple matches on different accounts. The changes are no good
But only 2 on this account? Rail gun takes some getting used to for sure. I like the longer charge time though. Changes are promising.
DbnpoiZN wrote:
Whats the big deal in arena or slayer with the BR having a long range when its a pick up gun? But now its a starting weapon.Now lets have a look at the main maps.
Colliseum. 1 Br in the middle
Plaza 1 Br at each base
Truth 1 Br and 1 carbine
Torque 1Br on each side
fathom 1 Br on each side
regret 1 Br on each side.
So does not matter how powerfull or what range it has its balanced
What?
SGO SMACK wrote:
What happens on btb maps like Viking if these changes are pushed though? Good luck killing the gauss gunner. Kids can barely kill me now.

what happens with br battles in all that open space? People will run out of bullets before dropping someone to half shields.

this whole idea is nonsense. By fixing one imaginary problem, you are going to create a bunch of new real problems.
Vehicle balance could be a real issue in BTB, but long range engagements always felt terrible IMO. I'm actually looking forward to being able to move on BTB maps without getting cross-mapped.
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