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[Locked] Weapon Tuning Test - Phase Two Feedback - 9/11

OP ske7ch

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NightClerk wrote:
NightClerk wrote:
NightClerk wrote:
NightClerk wrote:
...
I have to amend what I said about the BR. Something is wrong.

I played a game of Slayer on Truth last night. I was on the red side of carbine two, looking into the top of red base. A bad guy was AFK in top red, I SmartLink to shoot him. I'm not sure of the exact distance, but the reticle at that range covers about 2/3 of a Spartan (I think we can agree that the BR, heck, even the magnum, should be effective at that range). I put 3 shots into his body (hitmarker with each burst), then aim at the chin. I did not move the reticle from here on out. I fire a 4th time, hitmarker, I fire a 5th time, hitmarker, I fire 6th time, it's a kill and a headshot.

Let's think about this, 3 body shots (hitmarker on each shot), then 3 additional shots to the head, eventually registering a headshot and a kill. The BR should be consistent (and certainly at that medium range), as it is a "precision weapon." So how is the 4th burst not a kill but the 6th burst is (keep in mind, the reticle did not move)? Three shots to pop shields, then a 4th shot to the head to finish it off. The BR needs to be re-tuned (or not tuned at all), before the final update is made. I don't think gunfights should be determined by a seemingly random dice roll. I put the reticle on his head, what more do you want from me?
it probably has some sort of spread now and not all of your shot was hitting him
I agree. I think at that range, on a stationary target, with the reticle buried right in the middle of the target, a "Battle Rifle," a standard issue, precision weapon from the 26th century, in the hands of a Spartan, should be effective. Reducing the RRR? Fine. But these seemingly random elements are going too far. To me, it doesn't feel like I am being rewarded for placing the reticle smack-dab on target.
Lore shouldn't have anything to do with balance.
I agree. It's not about lore. My main beef here is that the spread seems random, and the weapon is being broken for being (allegedly) a bit too strong at long range. If they want to reduce the RRR (and in turn auto-aim and bullet magnetism at long range), that will bring the "balance" 343 apparently wants. But it's a precision weapon. It should be precise. If you keep the shots consistent, and precise, good players who can place the reticle right on the bad guy at range will still get hits. Bad players will miss. Right now, a determining factor in who wins the gunfights seems to come down to this random bullet spread. The random spread, in my mind, narrows the skill gap between good and bad players.

Man, that 6-shot last night just felt wrong to me. In a game as fast, clean, and precise as Halo 5 generally is, it was like a big, ugly black eye.

Note: Right now, we don't know for a fact that the change 343 made is a somewhat random spread, so this could be completely wrong. But quite a few other people in the thread feel the same so I think we're onto something.
It is precise where it's supposed to be precise though. Within the appropriate ranges I haven't felt that the spread has messed with my shots at all. It's only when I try long range that it ever becomes a factor, and I like that. One of my least favorite things in past Halo games is the long range cross mapping that things like the Halo 2 BR and Reach DMR cause. They grind gameplay to a halt. Halo 5's original BR has this exact same problem in the playlists that allow you to start with it. It ruins map flow. Halo 3's BR gets a lot of -Yoink- for its spread and projectile bullets, but those stopped it from being a cross map powerhouse and made the map flow in that game arguably the best in the series. From what time I've had with this new BR it seems to do that exact same thing while also feeling a lot more consistent than the Halo 3 BR. It's a best of both world situation.

And something that I've thought about a little bit is, are people confusing the effects of the spread with lower auto-aim/bullet magnetism? To me it's pretty apparent that there is a decent amount less auto-aim and magnetism on the new BR, That in addition to the spread could easily be the reason that people feel that it's inconsistent, because even though it's the new aiming that is actually making the game feel different, people are blaming the spread. Another thing that I've seem in this thread a lot is people saying things like, "I didn't like it at first, but after getting more used to it it's grown on me." That could easily just be people adapting to the new aiming mechanics. I know for sure that it took me ~2 games to get used to it. Who knows 100% though.
Ugh, just as I was about to be happy to play this update, lots of those weapon changes make the game less suited for competitive in a lot of ways.
Let me break down what has happened to the weapons that in my opinion make them worse overall and not able to establish roles.

Battle Rifle:
  • Now has more bullet spread making it impossible to consistency hit targets outside of its RRR
  • jerky recoil that makes a "perfect" kill harder even when the BR has the target fully in the reticule.
If the goal was to make this weapon the premier starting weapon, it would be immediately laughed out of the HCS settings and dumped for the pistol. I did agree that is was too powerful at all ranges. But the methods to retune it to a more balanced state are so off the mark. The random spread aspect while not tuning down the power makes gunfights less consistent and more luck based. Especially at long range. Oh BTW just won't get crossed map and killed off spawn anymore doesn't mean map movement won't grind to a halt. The hit scan nature means it's still possible to pin down players and clog up the map. This should not be the starting weapon on these characteristics alone.

SMG
  • Bloom increased and intical reticle size increased.
  • No longer has the ability to headshot. So instead of 4 headshots vs 6 bodyshots it's now just 6 shots total.
  • Smart link reticle bloom increased as well.
Off talk about a weakened weapon. For starters, I find little incentive to use this weapon. The gunfighter magnum is punished less for firing at max RoF while the SMG can only be used as a last resort weapon. The loss of the extra damage and inabilty to pulse for better accuracy makes it very unreliable and turns it into a poor man's shotgun. It also puts it at a disadvantage against Melee first and Spartan chargers since they will win trades with the pistol and BR being one headshot only needed while the SMG can't win it. No reason to pick it up and isn't gonna improve the gun play.

Assault Rifle
  • Bloom has been increased all across the board. It also resets slower and blooms out quicker.
  • smart link no longer gives a slight reduction in bloom.
  • Recoil has been slightly increased.
The worst weapon right now in the tuning. Can't do anything at mid range because burst firing is too slow compared to the precision weapons and will not be able to be accurate enough to sustain engagements outside of close range. By increasing the bloom, you've now increased the luck gone into the gunfights and have made it to inconsistent to do anything skillful with. This ain't a "power weapon" this is just junk. The gunfighter magnum is better in every way. Way over nerfed and no reason to shot smarter except full auto and hope bloom doesn't screw you over.

so theses weapon shoul be changed. Adding random spread and more bloom and recoil without any benefits for bursting firing just render them uncompetitive based on underpoweredness and randomness. The Assualt Rifle being the most redundant weapons. SMG beats it, Gunfighter beats it, BR beats it, DMR beats it and it excellls at nothing. If this version stays, I would be less enthusiastic to play H5.
I couldn't disagree with you more about the SMG. It absolutely shreds at close quarters. Unless opposition has a shotgun or gets a melee in first, they're diced pineapples
NightClerk wrote:
NightClerk wrote:
NightClerk wrote:
NightClerk wrote:
...
I have to amend what I said about the BR. Something is wrong.

I played a game of Slayer on Truth last night. I was on the red side of carbine two, looking into the top of red base. A bad guy was AFK in top red, I SmartLink to shoot him. I'm not sure of the exact distance, but the reticle at that range covers about 2/3 of a Spartan (I think we can agree that the BR, heck, even the magnum, should be effective at that range). I put 3 shots into his body (hitmarker with each burst), then aim at the chin. I did not move the reticle from here on out. I fire a 4th time, hitmarker, I fire a 5th time, hitmarker, I fire 6th time, it's a kill and a headshot.

Let's think about this, 3 body shots (hitmarker on each shot), then 3 additional shots to the head, eventually registering a headshot and a kill. The BR should be consistent (and certainly at that medium range), as it is a "precision weapon." So how is the 4th burst not a kill but the 6th burst is (keep in mind, the reticle did not move)? Three shots to pop shields, then a 4th shot to the head to finish it off. The BR needs to be re-tuned (or not tuned at all), before the final update is made. I don't think gunfights should be determined by a seemingly random dice roll. I put the reticle on his head, what more do you want from me?
it probably has some sort of spread now and not all of your shot was hitting him
I agree. I think at that range, on a stationary target, with the reticle buried right in the middle of the target, a "Battle Rifle," a standard issue, precision weapon from the 26th century, in the hands of a Spartan, should be effective. Reducing the RRR? Fine. But these seemingly random elements are going too far. To me, it doesn't feel like I am being rewarded for placing the reticle smack-dab on target.
Lore shouldn't have anything to do with balance.
I agree. It's not about lore. My main beef here is that the spread seems random, and the weapon is being broken for being (allegedly) a bit too strong at long range. If they want to reduce the RRR (and in turn auto-aim and bullet magnetism at long range), that will bring the "balance" 343 apparently wants. But it's a precision weapon. It should be precise. If you keep the shots consistent, and precise, good players who can place the reticle right on the bad guy at range will still get hits. Bad players will miss. Right now, a determining factor in who wins the gunfights seems to come down to this random bullet spread. The random spread, in my mind, narrows the skill gap between good and bad players.

Man, that 6-shot last night just felt wrong to me. In a game as fast, clean, and precise as Halo 5 generally is, it was like a big, ugly black eye.

Note: Right now, we don't know for a fact that the change 343 made is a somewhat random spread, so this could be completely wrong. But quite a few other people in the thread feel the same so I think we're onto something.
It is precise where it's supposed to be precise though. Within the appropriate ranges I haven't felt that the spread has messed with my shots at all. It's only when I try long range that it ever becomes a factor, and I like that. One of my least favorite things in past Halo games is the long range cross mapping that things like the Halo 2 BR and Reach DMR cause. They grind gameplay to a halt. Halo 5's original BR has this exact same problem in the playlists that allow you to start with it. It ruins map flow. Halo 3's BR gets a lot of -Yoink- for its spread and projectile bullets, but those stopped it from being a cross map powerhouse and made the map flow in that game arguably the best in the series. From what time I've had with this new BR it seems to do that exact same thing while also feeling a lot more consistent than the Halo 3 BR. It's a best of both world situation.

And something that I've thought about a little bit is, are people confusing the effects of the spread with lower auto-aim/bullet magnetism? To me it's pretty apparent that there is a decent amount less auto-aim and magnetism on the new BR, That in addition to the spread could easily be the reason that people feel that it's inconsistent, because even though it's the new aiming that is actually making the game feel different, people are blaming the spread. Another thing that I've seem in this thread a lot is people saying things like, "I didn't like it at first, but after getting more used to it it's grown on me." That could easily just be people adapting to the new aiming mechanics. I know for sure that it took me ~2 games to get used to it. Who knows 100% though.
I'm with you. I didn't immediately come here to complain because my k/d went down. I knew it added a new wrinkle, a new challenge to the gameplay that I had to master. Finally, something refreshing. Too many halo fans left because things became more difficult. Good riddance. Now I get such a rush when I go 1vs3 and defeat my opponents with swift moves, thanks to this amazing game's well thought out mechanics. But I digress...

I actually wasn't a fan of Halo 2 online. Why? 1 because of the BR and 2 because of the half a football field lunge of the sword. It just took me out of the game. The BR in Halo 5 has been changed in a positive way, even with every update. People just need to take time to try these weapons out. Try to get into the mind of the folks who meticulously fine tune the mechanics of the game. Have patience and most of all, have fun
The BR for some reason shoots weirdly slow and I don’t like it. People have way to much time to find cover and I end up not finishing my kills. But otherwise everything is great.
I have played quite a few matches in this playlist now, and my two main take-aways were this.

  1. I am in love with the Halo 5 pistol, and to me it's the bread and butter of the Halo 5 experience. Spawning with the BR, and gunfighter magnum seemed exciting at first, but proved to be a profoundly unsatisfying experience for me.
  2. I was fine with the BR nerf as I feel that the gun is still really strong and it just takes more skill to use now. However, I did not like the nerfs to the Rail gun, Carbine, and DMR. Those guns feel considerably weaker now, and not worth picking up anymore. Please consider not nerfing these guns especially the DMR.
343, thank you for giving the community a chance to play with these changes, and test them out before they go live in the sandbox. I am glad that we are able to give each of our two cents on the subject. However, I want to make sure I reiterate my main point of concern so that you realize how much this one aspect in particular affected my experience as a player. The nerfs/buffs are an important aspect to look at, but my main area of concern was not spawning with the Halo 5 Magnum. I did not enjoy the BR/Gunfighter Magnum starts, and I find myself gravitating towards playlists which let me spawn with the Halo 5 Magnum.

Best,
-master X 117
Can you elaborate on why you feel the railgun is not worth picking up? it has the same strength. It just requires you to hold the trigger for longer. You hold it for about half the time or 3/4ths the time of the Spartan laser. But again, it's the same strength. Every shell (rail?) can be a kill if you time it right and of course maintain the right distance between you and your opponent. If you were using it before as a quick reflex weapon then I'm not blaming you... the earlier mechanics of it allowed you to do that and dominate. But now the gun is more balanced to be as it was originally intended. Again again... same strength as before :)
This post has been edited by a moderator. Because we are not currently equipped to provide moderation in other languages, we ask that all messages be posted in English. Feel free to use an online language translation service.

No esta cool el BR es muy lento y la magnum tiene muy poco daño.
Las cosas estan bien asi no la caguen
SteelFer02 wrote:
The BR for some reason shoots weirdly slow and I don’t like it. People have way to much time to find cover and I end up not finishing my kills. But otherwise everything is great.
Why did you just copy and paste someone else's comment? I guess you jsut agree with him word for word? Haha. See below

The BR for some reason shoots weirdly slow and I don’t like it. People have way to much time to find cover and I end up not finishing my kills. But otherwise everything is great.
NightClerk wrote:
NightClerk wrote:
NightClerk wrote:
NightClerk wrote:
...
I have to amend what I said about the BR. Something is wrong.

I played a game of Slayer on Truth last night. I was on the red side of carbine two, looking into the top of red base. A bad guy was AFK in top red, I SmartLink to shoot him. I'm not sure of the exact distance, but the reticle at that range covers about 2/3 of a Spartan (I think we can agree that the BR, heck, even the magnum, should be effective at that range). I put 3 shots into his body (hitmarker with each burst), then aim at the chin. I did not move the reticle from here on out. I fire a 4th time, hitmarker, I fire a 5th time, hitmarker, I fire 6th time, it's a kill and a headshot.

Let's think about this, 3 body shots (hitmarker on each shot), then 3 additional shots to the head, eventually registering a headshot and a kill. The BR should be consistent (and certainly at that medium range), as it is a "precision weapon." So how is the 4th burst not a kill but the 6th burst is (keep in mind, the reticle did not move)? Three shots to pop shields, then a 4th shot to the head to finish it off. The BR needs to be re-tuned (or not tuned at all), before the final update is made. I don't think gunfights should be determined by a seemingly random dice roll. I put the reticle on his head, what more do you want from me?
it probably has some sort of spread now and not all of your shot was hitting him
I agree. I think at that range, on a stationary target, with the reticle buried right in the middle of the target, a "Battle Rifle," a standard issue, precision weapon from the 26th century, in the hands of a Spartan, should be effective. Reducing the RRR? Fine. But these seemingly random elements are going too far. To me, it doesn't feel like I am being rewarded for placing the reticle smack-dab on target.
Lore shouldn't have anything to do with balance.
I agree. It's not about lore. My main beef here is that the spread seems random, and the weapon is being broken for being (allegedly) a bit too strong at long range. If they want to reduce the RRR (and in turn auto-aim and bullet magnetism at long range), that will bring the "balance" 343 apparently wants. But it's a precision weapon. It should be precise. If you keep the shots consistent, and precise, good players who can place the reticle right on the bad guy at range will still get hits. Bad players will miss. Right now, a determining factor in who wins the gunfights seems to come down to this random bullet spread. The random spread, in my mind, narrows the skill gap between good and bad players.

Man, that 6-shot last night just felt wrong to me. In a game as fast, clean, and precise as Halo 5 generally is, it was like a big, ugly black eye.

Note: Right now, we don't know for a fact that the change 343 made is a somewhat random spread, so this could be completely wrong. But quite a few other people in the thread feel the same so I think we're onto something.
We know its random spread. If you shoot at a wall from say 30 meters, there is significant distance between the bullet pock-marks. When you do that with the default BR its just a dot. There were a lot of great things about Halo 3, but the random spread on the BR was NOT one of them haha. Should have learned our lesson then...

Edit: original BR has slight vertical spread. Old bullet Mag was so strong they all hit regardless. Less magnetism will cause this spread to matter at range. It should not be random
I've only played 10 matches so far,so these are only my intial impressions.

- I feel like having BR starts defeats the point of a lot of these changes. The BR is less good up close, which is a good thing, since it makes it less omnipresent in utility... except since the player spawns with a BR now, it means that close range encounters are awkward. And since the player spawns with the BR, the extra usage that the AR and other automatics (especially the SMG, with it's range nerf) would have gotten out of the BR being less good up close is wasted as since as everybody already has one, the BR gets used by everybody anyways: So precision weapons are omnipresent, except there's even less variety in usage then before, since the carbine, light rifle, etc get picked up less since everybody already has the BR on hand

- Furthermore, the BR appears to have random spread. This is a bad thing. I get that the idea is to make it less good at long range, but replace this with more recoil instead while keeping the actual spread level at zero

- I initially thought the SMG might have been nerfed a bit too hard range wise, but I think it's fine. Perhaps the spread gain curve could be adjuisted though so the first 5 shots or so don't give you as much spread as the shots after it compared to as now, to incentivize bursting. (EDITED)- Likewise, while the AR needed full auto spraying nerfed, this might have gone too far alone: it's good that unskilled spraying is being punished, but accurate burst fire needs to be rewarded more and be better. Either do the same thing I suggested with the SMG here, and have the first few shots have reduced spread game, or have them deal extra damage, or bring back the headshot bonus on shields (with bodyshot damage reduced, and with the bonus scaling inversely with spread, so if somebody is spraying and the spread is maxxed out they won't get a headshot bonus even if they land it), just do something to make actually skilled, accurate, aimed burst fire be better to compensate for spraying being worse.
Having played more:

- Having used the AR more, I think that even just for nerfing spraying, the adjustsments to spread gain went too far here: Even while burst firing, you can accrue too much spread too fast. Make it so that spread dissapates faster, and that the first 5-6 shots with the AR in a burst/firing sequence has a reduced amount of spread gain. I know at least the first 2-3 do, but reduce it further and have more then just them be reduced.

- I also really think there needs to be AR starts even more then before: Now that the AR is less easily good at a distance, it's less worth using then it was before, but it's also now a pickup and you have the BR to begin with, which makes the AR as a pickup even less appealing to use. The BR being a starting weapon also cancels out it's own nerfs to make it less onmnipresent, especially with so little weapons on maps and pretty much all of them (SMG, DMR, etc) being nerfed.

- There's a lack of weapon variety in general because why switch when you have the BR to begin with, even with the BR's nerfs? With AR/magnum starts you solve everything: The AR/SMG changes work as intended, with the SMG no longer being a straight upgrade, and while the BR, Carbine, etc are no longer straight upgrades either, since the AR is less easily useful as a range, there's still plenty a reason to pick them up

- Even putting aside the unwinglines to pick weapons up due to having a BR to begin with, there's too few weapons on maps: there needs to be a larger variety.

- The gunfighter magnum has way too much recoil and spread.
On top of all of what i've already said here (which I still thing rings true): having attempted to use the AR more, I am even more convinced that the changes have made it not worth using, even if as somebody who doesn't spray and attempts to use accurate, timed bursts.

It is not merely that the added spread went too far and negatively impacted 4-5 round bursts that shouldn't have been( though that too): Even when bursting a ranges where the spread accuring too much isn't an issue or where you limit it to such short bursts it's not, there's simply not enough DPS to make it worth it due to needing to stop firing so often: The magnum and BR, which everybody spawns with, are far better in the DPS race with how often you need to stop firing even up to astonishingly close ranges.

So, in addition to increasing the rate at which spread resets and reducing the spread the first 4-5 shots cause, I also suggest that something be done to up the effective DPS of those first few shots in a burst: bringing back the headshot bonus on shields from the betas I suggested before; or Lowering the rate of fire and/or magazine count of the AR but upping the damage (which should help accurate bursts moreso then spraying, since the lower fire rate will have spread more of a chance to disspiate and by increasing the cost of missed shots) or something like that. It almost seems like the AR actually got a damage nerf, which if so, absolutely needs to be undone.

Lastly, having used the SMG more, I think it's pretty good where you guys have it, don't mess with it further other then perhaps something to encourage bursting more: any further nerfs could make it too niche in range.

In summary:
  • Remove Spread from the BR, replace it with extra recoil. The BR needed to be less good at super long ranges, but spread isn't the answer
  • Make the first 4-5 shots in a burst with the AR have reduced spread gain, and increase the rate at which spread dissipates, as well as something to up the DPS of accurate bursts but not spraying, such as higher bullet damage but a lower fire rate. The nerf to full auto spraying with the AR was good, but it goes a bit too far and also makes accurate bursts worse, and needing to burst more often means that it does not sustain enough DPS to be competitive at even closer ranges with the BR and Magnum even if all the shots land, let alone be worth picking up.
  • Switch back to AR/Magnum starts. This way, the fact that the SMG, Br, Carbine, and DMR all got nerfs to be more role specific rather then straight upgrades over the magnum/AR actually matters and you have a reason to seek out weapons; With BR starts, there isn't really a reason to pick up the carbine or DMR because you already have a gun for long distance, and there's not really a reason to pick up an AR since the SMG is better for close up, and the BR you already have is better for medium.
  • Gunfighter magnum is too weak and doesn't get usage at all. The faster firing speed over the default magnum feels nice, but it's too inaccurate and does too little damage. Given that I already suggest switching back to the normal magnum, there's not much to say here, other then that I wouldn't mind the normal magnum being tuned to be a tad closer to this one without going all the way: Maybe taking one more shot to kill, but having a proportionally higher rate of fire so it has the same DPS but just feels slicker due to the faster fire rate.
  • The SMG is fine where it is due to the changes, don't adjust it further, it's already almost pushing with the range reduction
This ^

Anyways everybody is talking about the weapon changes. While I'm over here fine with the changes and adjusting alright, but finding a tough time getting used to the new radar.
Vigor7704 wrote:
I have played quite a few matches in this playlist now, and my two main take-aways were this.

  1. I am in love with the Halo 5 pistol, and to me it's the bread and butter of the Halo 5 experience. Spawning with the BR, and gunfighter magnum seemed exciting at first, but proved to be a profoundly unsatisfying experience for me.
  2. I was fine with the BR nerf as I feel that the gun is still really strong and it just takes more skill to use now. However, I did not like the nerfs to the Rail gun, Carbine, and DMR. Those guns feel considerably weaker now, and not worth picking up anymore. Please consider not nerfing these guns especially the DMR.
343, thank you for giving the community a chance to play with these changes, and test them out before they go live in the sandbox. I am glad that we are able to give each of our two cents on the subject. However, I want to make sure I reiterate my main point of concern so that you realize how much this one aspect in particular affected my experience as a player. The nerfs/buffs are an important aspect to look at, but my main area of concern was not spawning with the Halo 5 Magnum. I did not enjoy the BR/Gunfighter Magnum starts, and I find myself gravitating towards playlists which let me spawn with the Halo 5 Magnum.

Best,
-master X 117
Can you elaborate on why you feel the railgun is not worth picking up? it has the same strength. It just requires you to hold the trigger for longer. You hold it for about half the time or 3/4ths the time of the Spartan laser. But again, it's the same strength. Every shell (rail?) can be a kill if you time it right and of course maintain the right distance between you and your opponent. If you were using it before as a quick reflex weapon then I'm not blaming you... the earlier mechanics of it allowed you to do that and dominate. But now the gun is more balanced to be as it was originally intended. Again again... same strength as before :)
This one of the reasons that i am perturbed that we can't play around with the weapons in custom games. I felt the same way about the rail for probably the first 3 or 4 times i used it. Now that i'm used to the longer charge though, its fine. The extra charge time is actually not as long as it "Feels", people are just so used to the original version. its still a great tool for holding a power position and stringing together kills, but you can't be "stupid aggro" anymore.

I think if we had access to these weapons in customs, you could set up games to really try out the non-starting weapons and get a feel for them. The only weapons that people are really getting enough time with are the BR and GF mag.
Apoll0 wrote:
eLantern wrote:
NightClerk wrote:
NightClerk wrote:
...
I have to amend what I said about the BR. Something is wrong.

I played a game of Slayer on Truth last night. I was on the red side of carbine two, looking into the top of red base. A bad guy was AFK in top red, I SmartLink to shoot him. I'm not sure of the exact distance, but the reticle at that range covers about 2/3 of a Spartan (I think we can agree that the BR, heck, even the magnum, should be effective at that range). I put 3 shots into his body (hitmarker with each burst), then aim at the chin. I did not move the reticle from here on out. I fire a 4th time, hitmarker, I fire a 5th time, hitmarker, I fire 6th time, it's a kill and a headshot.

Let's think about this, 3 body shots (hitmarker on each shot), then 3 additional shots to the head, eventually registering a headshot and a kill. The BR should be consistent (and certainly at that medium range), as it is a "precision weapon." So how is the 4th burst not a kill but the 6th burst is (keep in mind, the reticle did not move)? Three shots to pop shields, then a 4th shot to the head to finish it off. The BR needs to be re-tuned (or not tuned at all), before the final update is made. I don't think gunfights should be determined by a seemingly random dice roll. I put the reticle on his head, what more do you want from me?
When you ADS or SmartLinked the BR onto that AFK guy was the weapon's reticle red?
Does it matter? The bullets should fire in a straight line. If you want to remove RR and bullet magnetism from that range, that's fine. That's enough to restrict the range and differentiate skill. If a player can maintain accuracy at that range without assistance better than another player, they deserve the kill. Adding a random spread element introduces an element of luck into the game that is just not needed. And the longer the range, to more luck plays a factor as the random spread on a precision weapon increases.

"But then the BR will have the same effective range as the DMR and sniper!!" well no it wouldn't. DMR would still have RR and bullet magnetism applied, the BR would not. Plus the BR being a burst weapon means that not only do you have to maintain your accuracy without any assistance, you have to do so over a longer period of time so all the shots hit. No differentiation beyond that is needed.
it probably has some sort of spread now and not all of your shot was hitting him
It definitely does, but it shouldn't. see what i said above. The fact it has spread does not make what happened to him "OK" (not that you're saying that, but i wanted to address it). I bet if you repeated that experiment with the BR sometimes it would kill in 4, other times in 7, other times in 5 etc. We don't need that kind of randomness.
"Does it matter?" <-- Well, yes of course it matters. Red Reticle Range indicates the distance in which the game provides helpful compensation; in other words, that's the distance where bullet magnetism and aim assistance are intended to occur in full effect. Halo, for the most part, is a console-based game which is intended to be played with hand-held controllers and in order to make that experience more enjoyable for the masses compensation assistance is provided. In fact, Halo: Combat Evolved introduced compensation assistance to the FPS genre for consoles. All following FPS titles, designed for console play, have adapted similar compensation assistance.

I do however agree that the FIRST particle-based bullet (aka non-plasma) being fired out of ANY weapon should travel in a straight line right down the center of a weapon's reticle. The only reason that bullet should deviate from that trajectory is because the game's compensation assistance (aka bullet magnetism) redirected it toward an opponent's character. In fact, I personally think single bullet precision weapons, which only fire "FIRST" bullets, should never be subjected to an artificial bullet spread. By artificial bullet spread, I mean bullets that are allowed to travel in random directions within a designed cone. I think these weapons (single bullet precisions) should be designed strictly around their recoil factor which can still produce a random bullet spread if desired though for the most part in a game like this it should NOT be desired.

Recoil is controlled by a weapon's assigned view-kick and center-speed which means that every time the trigger is pulled the weapon's reticle reacts by moving in a direction and then returning to that original position. The developers can choose to design a weapon's view-kick as either a fixed pattern or they can choose to introduce random variance to it, so recoil doesn't necessarily mean elements of randomness are automatically removed though it certainly posses that potential and in most circumstances it gives more control over that randomness to the player. The center-speed is how quickly that reticle is able to reset itself back to its original position. If the center-speed isn't quick enough to always fully reset the reticle between shots (given the weapon's fire-rate) then the result (on a spray chart) is bullet spread; though, the difference between this recoil effect and an artificial bullet spread effect is that each bullet actually traveled where the reticle indicated it would travel (minus magnetism effects) verses bullets randomly traveling in directions within a cylindrical cone outward from the reticle.

Halo has typically made use of artificial bullet spread for its random variance in tandem with a fixed pattern recoil effect that tends to re-center itself. I imagine the reason for this is either tradition or because it's simpler, but I'm not a game designer by trade and I never completed my post-secondary education into game design. Nevertheless, it is my opinion that weapons that fire multiple particle-based bullets per trigger pull (3-round burst & autos) should be subjected to levels of random variance (it's authentic and allows them to appropriately fit there in-game roles); though, that FIRST bullet still needs to travel where the reticle indicated it would. Personally, I think Halo would be better off if it designed all their particle-based bullet weapons around the recoil effect instead of making use of an artificial bullet spread, but that's just me.
The railgun is much easier to dodge now. I had one guy miss me 3 times in a row because I stayed in view during the charge for second and then moved back into cover. I'm probably done with this playlist though unless they make some more changes.
RollCats wrote:
I will use this post to specifically talk about my feelings toward the BR changes, and will follow up with another post with the rest of the weapons.

edit: Tl;dr -- The magnum should remain the starting utility weapon, and should be tuned to have less recoil but take even more skill (reduce aim assist and esp. magnetism). The BR should have increased (muzz-climb) recoil, less aim assist, less magnetism, slighlty more spread, and keep the same ROF (or increase slightly between bursts -- keep cyclic rate the same) [edit: changes here in reference to classic H5 BR]. This will tone it down in Arena, but still make it a viable pickup. BR Starts would fundamentally change the paradigm of Arena 2 years into this game. Save BR starts for halo 6 and tune around it for that release!
Here are the rest of my thoughts on the tuning test, so far.

Carbine: One of my favorite weapons in H5, the carbine has been scaled back to be more in line with the newly tuned BR. (edit: I no longer think the DPS is changed) The biggest difference seems to be much lower magnetism, and a shorter RRR for Smart-Link. Aim assist has also been decreased. In addition to the lower magnetism, it seems to have returned the spread from past titles. Fired at the fastest rate makes the carbine inconsistent. Firing between DMR and carbine rate yields better accuracy in my experience, especially in hipfire.My opinion: It was a pretty long range rifle before, which was new for the Carbine in the series, and I don't disagree a slight range nerf was in order. However, It seems almost as hard to use than the magnum now, especially from hipfire. The carbine has always taken more skill (in past iterations as well as H5, out to a certain range), due to it require more shots to kill, and making as hard if not harder to use than the BR makes it much less attractive as a map pickup. I think it should keep the nerfed RRR, and lowered magnetism, but bring back the aim assist to compensate for the fact that it is harder to keep track of a target when using a fast firing rifle, and also return the spread so that it is more accurate, but introduce more recoil to skill have it take more skill. Gunfighter Magnum: Gunfighter was a fairly accurate, quick kill weapon in close to close-mid. Paired great with a lightrifle to make a versatile loadout. Now serves as the backup starting weapon, exclusively meant for close range fire fights and clean up kills. The range has been reduced, primarily through additional recoil and reticule bloom. DPS seems to be about the same (6-shot perf, 4-shot+melee). To offset for these nerfs, the magazine has been extended to 18 bullets. Then to offset for the magazine increase, the reload time has increased.

My opinion: pacing your shots allows the magnum to reliably compete at close-mid (think AR hipfire max range/beginning of ADS range), while its fast fire rate makes it a good weapon to switch to in CQC, without being overly easy to use like the AR. Good change, but only works as a starter weapon now -- will have little utility as a map pickup.

SMG: Feels great. the default reticule has been increased, to solidify its place as CQC monster. to Help offset this, recoil has been reduced, so it is more consistent. The ADS feels nice, and allows it to extend out to close-mid range, with controlled bursts. Reduction of headshot bonuses makes the gun less random. Seems like it has kept its utility, while not being overpowering outside of its intended range. Good change.

DMR: Objectively the best all around weapon in the sandbox before the update (3x scope; 5-shot, 1.2s kill, 6-shot body kill, quickest melee for precision, high aim assist and magnetism...), the DMR has had it's aim assist and RRR (hipfire) and power reduced, with the aim assist and magnetism in hipfire being noticeably nerfed. I haven't been able to test the power -- has anyone confirmed they moved to a 3-shot beatdown? It does seem to be a 6-shot body kill (limited data here so unsure), so if the power was reduced it is still more powerful than magnum. It seems to have less power just by looking at Spartan shileding animations after each shot...

My opinion: Precision weapons should be utility weapons, and shouldn't be THAT much harder to use than the rest of the sandbox in close range (see: my carbine thoughts). Reducing the magnetism and aim assist in close range is fine; I think they overdid it just a tad, though. Ok change, need more reps for a better determination. It is still a beast at long range with a steady hand, so it's definitely filling 'its intended role'.

Assault Rifle: Same changes as to the SMG, for the most part. Slightly reduced range, slightly larger reticule, reduced headshot bonuses, noticeable increase in reticule bloom. Encourages burst firing and feathering the trigger. Effective at mid-range, but not enough to dominate someone. Can shred at close range with a little patience and control. Good change.

Grenade Launcher: Changed to be more skill based. before, it was fun to use sure, but was really to easy. Point at shoot and the thing basically homed to your oponent. Now, the blast radius has been reduced, it has more arc and a slower projectile. It is more made to use the secondary mode, carefully. took a while to get used to, but feels really good once you get the hang of it, and is no longer on a weapon pad as it is not a point at shoot monster anymore. Feels more like reach, and that's a good thing.

Railgun: The Railgun in H4 was a close to mid-range power weapon, that required some precision and timing. In H5, it has had it's range significantly increased. In this new tuning, the charge time is much longer, which makes it much less useful at closer ranges. I agree with most on here that this charge time is too long: in should be in between where it is now, and where it was. Aim assist/magnetism in hipfire should be reduced to increase the skill gap, and the gun will be perfect.

Sword: having no speed boost at all is interesting, and It seems to have a longer lunge range to compensate. I like this idea, but think there should be happy middle -- speed at 103%, e.g.

Camo: Improvements feel good, no big comments.

Fuel Rod: not enough reps to comment.

beam rifle: not eenough reps to comment

Unchanged Weapons:Lighrifle: One of my favorite H5 weapons shines brightly in this new update. It is a precision power weapon...get used to it! Getting a quick 4-shot vs a BR user feels great.

StormRifle: Solidifies its place as king of CQC and even close-mid to mid range. Could use a reduction in aim assist to increase skill gap.
eLantern wrote:
Apoll0 wrote:
eLantern wrote:
NightClerk wrote:
NightClerk wrote:
...
I have to amend what I said about the BR. Something is wrong.

I played a game of Slayer on Truth last night. I was on the red side of carbine two, looking into the top of red base. A bad guy was AFK in top red, I SmartLink to shoot him. I'm not sure of the exact distance, but the reticle at that range covers about 2/3 of a Spartan (I think we can agree that the BR, heck, even the magnum, should be effective at that range). I put 3 shots into his body (hitmarker with each burst), then aim at the chin. I did not move the reticle from here on out. I fire a 4th time, hitmarker, I fire a 5th time, hitmarker, I fire 6th time, it's a kill and a headshot.

Let's think about this, 3 body shots (hitmarker on each shot), then 3 additional shots to the head, eventually registering a headshot and a kill. The BR should be consistent (and certainly at that medium range), as it is a "precision weapon." So how is the 4th burst not a kill but the 6th burst is (keep in mind, the reticle did not move)? Three shots to pop shields, then a 4th shot to the head to finish it off. The BR needs to be re-tuned (or not tuned at all), before the final update is made. I don't think gunfights should be determined by a seemingly random dice roll. I put the reticle on his head, what more do you want from me?
"Does it matter?" <-- Well, yes of course it matters. Red Reticle Range indicates the distance in which the game provides helpful compensation; in other words, that's the distance where bullet magnetism and aim assistance are intended to occur in full effect. Halo, for the most part, is a console-based game which is intended to be played with hand-held controllers and in order to make that experience more enjoyable for the masses compensation assistance is provided. In fact, Halo: Combat Evolved introduced compensation assistance to the FPS genre for consoles. All following FPS titles, designed for console play, have adapted similar compensation assistance.

I do however agree that the FIRST particle-based bullet (aka non-plasma) being fired out of ANY weapon should travel in a straight line right down the center of a weapon's reticle. The only reason that bullet should deviate from that trajectory is because the game's compensation assistance (aka bullet magnetism) redirected it toward an opponent's character. In fact, I personally think single bullet precision weapons, which only fire "FIRST" bullets, should never be subjected to an artificial bullet spread. By artificial bullet spread, I mean bullets that are allowed to travel in random directions within a designed cone. I think these weapons (single bullet precision weapons) should be designed strictly around their recoil factor which can still produce a random bullet spread if desired.

Recoil is controlled by a weapon's assigned view-kick and center-speed which means that every time the trigger is pulled the weapon's reticle reacts by moving in a direction. That direction is usually programmed to be up and maybe at an angle to the left or right. The developers can choose to design a weapon's view-kick as either a fixed pattern or they can choose to introduce random variance to it, so recoil doesn't necessarily mean elements of randomness are automatically removed though it certainly posses that potential and certainly gives more control over that randomness to the player. The center-speed is how quickly that reticle is able to reset itself back to it original position. If the center-speed isn't fast enough to fully reset the reticle between the weapon's firing rate then the result (on a spray chart) is bullet spread; though, the difference between this recoil effect and an artificial bullet spread effect is that each bullet actually traveled where the reticle indicated it would travel (minus magnetism effects) verses bullets randomly traveling in directions not indicated by the reticle.

Halo has typically made use of artificial bullet spread for its random variance in tandem with a fixed pattern recoil effect. I imagine the reason for this is either tradition or because it's simpler, but I'm not a game designer by trade and I never completed my post-secondary education into game design. Nevertheless, it is my opinion that weapons that fire multiple particle-based bullets per trigger pull (3-round burst & autos) should be subjected to levels of random variance (it's authentic and allows them to appropriately fit there in-game roles); though, that FIRST bullet still needs to travel where the reticle indicated it would. Personally, I think Halo would be better off if it designed all their particle-based bullet weapons around the recoil effect instead of making use of an artificial bullet spread, but that's just me.
Yes I understand all of that. Disagree that it should only be the first bullet that is dead-accurate though. They should all be imo but If they are insistent on there being spread it should absolutely NOT be random. it should be linear, minimal and follow the recoil. Shaped like this |

The "Does it matter?" i was asking was in regards to the person not moving and consistency of registration (could have been clearer on the second part). No, it should not matter what the RRR is if the person is not moving. If you are shooting at them with perfect accuracy, all your bullets should hit. If there is spread it should have the same exact pattern all the time. And since we are playing on console with inferior input devices, that spread should be linear. In the case where that is true, you should be able to repeat this experiment and get a kill on the same bullet every time. The way it is configured now with the spread being random, thats simply not possible.

I don't think that random spread on precision weapons is necessary in Halo for a number of reasons:

1) Kill Times. Kill times in this game are longish. Longer than CoD, but shorter than Hero shooters. which is perfect imo. Random spread makes the kill time variable per engagement depending on how lucky you get with the spread. Linear spread is better but i still think unnecessary. If you want to define range, cut off RRR and bullet magnetism.
2) Recoil. Spread is always communicated via recoil. Again, with the lengthy kill times in Halo, repeated severe recoil is just uncomfortable to play with and unwieldy. The solution to this in the past has been to allow the gun to return exactly to center quicker than the max fire rate of the weapon. if you are just going to do this anyway... whats the point? Its not actually having any effect on the game other than screwing with your vision and being uncomfortable.
3) RANDOMNESS. To me, the argument isn't "Random spread or no spread?" Thats a non-starter. If its random, no matter how minute, its unacceptable. We have been down this path before so im not even sure why this is a discussion. If they want to introduce spread, it should be linear. Period. But i dont think thats necessary. KISS.

If there is any argument to be had here, its "No spread vs Linear spread". If there was linear spread, it should be of the kind where each of the 3 bullets still takes the exact same flight path every time. NO VARIANCE in the bullet flights even if there is separation.
I've now played over 125 games with the tuned weapons, and it's still awful. I'm bouncing around the low-diamond ranks playing solo (D2 right now), so I'm "decently skilled" but not a superstar. I don't know why I'm still playing this.. I think i need to switch back to HCS magnum starts. This tuned BR ruined everything I liked about halo.

  1. The slower TTK and shorter RRR of all the weapons are now totally mis-matched for the H5 maps and movement mechanics. If you outmaneuver someone and get good position on them, you can't kill them before they slip away because of the nerf to effective TTK.
  2. All the nifty spots on these maps with good angles and long sight lines are now almost worthless without a sniper or DMR (or maybe a flagnum), because people are too far away to hit reliably outside the pathetically short RRR.
  3. The H5 meta used to involve pushing out of our spawn evenly in multiple directions, seeking to control half the map and get angles on the enemy. Now, the clunky BR rewards mindlessly roaming in packs around the map trying to teamshot solo players you come across. There's minimal motivation or reward for pulling clever solo flanking plays, or holding down key defensive positions, because you can't simultaneously stay safe and get good shots on enemies (you have to rush them to get into BR RRR). Previously, I could hold down a power position against 2 kids rushing me, using my magnum + nades, but the BR is too unreliable to do that now.
  4. People keep saying things like "H5 is too easy, the weapons have too much auto-aim and bullet magnetism". Yes there was a lot of bullet magnetism (possibly the most in the series), but I think substantially less auto-aim than some previous titles. But for -Yoink-'s sake this is a CONSOLE shooter. We need a LITTLE auto-aim and bullet magnetism to make it fun to play (just not so much that it kills the skill gap). Otherwise nobody except the most nimble-fingered pros will enjoy the aiming. The latest tuned BR feels like it has too little, even within RRR. And the random spread issue makes it worse.
  5. The H5 pistol seemed like such a great achievement for 343... Very high skill curve, yet still very fun to use and accessible for many levels of players. And useful across many distance ranges which led to super fun gameplay. I love watching the pros cross-map outside the magnum's RRR, it's very skillful. The new tuned weapons have NONE of the attributes that made the H5 magnum great. They're no fun to use and lead to super boring gameplay.
A few other thoughts
  • The nerfed rail is awful. People hear it charging a mile away, and avoid you. Or nade you. And since the user can't control the firing moment, it's so easy to boost away from. I kill people constantly after boosting away from their rail discharge. They could have gone with a minor nerf... like increase the charge time slightly, or shorten the firing window slightly. Instead they made this gun useless.
  • The "nerfed" AR still seems a bit too powerful for Arena... but probably far too weak for WZ and BTB since it was a major anti-vehicle gun at close ranges.
  • SMG nerf seems good for arena. But RIP it's anti-vehicle utility in BTB and WZ... :-(
  • Nade launcher seems a bit too weak now, but it's not dramatic.
  • LR and especially Storm Rifle are god weapons now. Storm rifle is so good it should be on a public 2:00 timer.
  • GF magnum is meh... I would have preferred a cross between the OG GF magnum and the tuned one... the range nerf is just a little too extreme. But the additional ammo was a good idea.
  • DMR is meh... it needed a bit of a nerf, but like the BR it got too much of a hipfire RRR nerf.
  • The Sword nerf is probably good for arena, but it will make the WZ sword useless. Keep the ravening sliver and other variants with the OG movement bonuses.
  • Fuel rod - no opinion. I only used it once.
  • OS is now super powerful because everyone is doing less damage. Fine, I guess.
  • Carbine - i loved the original carbine but its ADS RRR was kind of insane. The nerf went a little too far, I would have gone with a middle-ground.
Assault Rifle- Seems like you guys increased the spread, reduced its aim assist and reduced the recoil. These changes can stay, its RRR (Red Reticle Range) should be 24m. which I believe the H5 AR is. However Smart Link kind of breaks this weapon's range and shouldn't be a thing on automatic weapons in future Halo games. Maybe have the hip fire range be 21m and Smart Link can bring it up to 24m. I'm not sure if you guys can do this, but it would help if you guys can decrease the Mag. capacity from 36 to 32. Lastly headshot bonuses on automatic weapons shouldn't be a thing, they should be removed from H5 and shouldn't be included in future Halo games.
Why wouldn't you want a headshot bonus when that gives it more of a skillgap? The entire point of the changes made to the AR here according to 343i was to reward skilled usage more.

Also, as is, the AR's range has been significantly cut down due to the spread changes, to the point where it's not even worth picking up due to how much worse it is at a distance and since you start with a BR now, which is better at a distance, and as a close up gun, the SMG is a better pickup option. To say that smart scope "breaks the weapons range" is ridiclious when the entire point of the AR is that it's a range capable automatic: It needs it more then ever now.

Do you guys seriously want to go back to the days of past halo titles where the automatic weapons were so bad there was zero reason to ever use them? I get that you don't want easy to use unskilled guns to be super good, but then the solution should be making them reward skill more.
Automatic weapons in Halo shouldn't have Smart Link in the 1st place and should never be a thing because it extends its range too much. Headshot bonuses shouldn't be a thing either. It's not skill, it's random and lower skilled players get rewarded for it because headshot bonuses on autos is random; not be because they know how to use it. The tuned AR isn't useless, I still pick it up and get kills with it; usually I switch my GFM for it.
I’ve been thinking about how to frame this for a while, this is what I came up with:

Things that make sense:
  • The ability-only radar is probably the best option for competitive play as long as sprint/Spartan charge remain in the game.
  • Camo is improved, transparency seems to be increased.
  • Sword without the massive speed boost is an improvement.
Things that don’t make sense:
  • A good test will change one variable at a time and then iterate. This test is basically changing all of the variables at once and then trying to make sense of it. It feels like how governments solve problems, instead of taking small bites we get a 2000 page piece of legislation that doesn’t even solve the original problem.
  • A good test will also be done in a sterile environment. In Halo 5, the best sterile environment to test weapons in is in a custom game, but custom games do not support the tuned weapons. I’m not sure how that was missed, but it sort of makes it hard to test weapons that you never see.
  • Despite the previous two items, the claim is that the test will somehow be biased if players know what exactly has changed. I’ve even seen people in this thread argue this. Does reading this thread not introduce bias as well? I would call using accurate information to form an opinion “an informed opinion”, not bias. So is there another reason we aren’t being told the changes – like maybe that someone could take one look at the changes and immediately deduce that something doesn’t make sense (like random BR spreads)? This test is sort of like “mystery meat”, maybe we don’t want to know what's in it.
  • Utility weapons more or less “define” the sandbox. By drastically changing how the utility weapons work we’re basically creating another sandbox, not tuning the existing one. By itself this isn’t a terrible thing, but it requires great execution, and I don’t think that has happened.
  • Did I miss the huge push to completely remove the magnum, generally recognized as the most satisfying weapon in the sandbox, from the sandbox? Where did that feedback come from?
  • Were people clamoring to introduce random spreads in a precision weapon? I’ve seen people in this thread call the tuned BR “more skillful” – but “more random” and “more skillful” are incompatible concepts. Why would anyone want randomness in a precision utility weapon? (And I think the spread is random based on some tests I did, but maybe I’m biased in some way. :)) Why would anyone want randomness in any weapon? IMO the other changes to the BR are negated by the random spread.
  • Generally, I think it is a bad idea to change the timing of a timing-based weapon this long after release. The stated goal of the railgun tuning was to make it a more sniper-style weapon. Again, I’m not sure where that goal comes from, but the problem is that the sniper is a silent weapon that fires immediately and the railgun is a super loud weapon that fires slowly (and even more slowly now). A better way to adjust this weapon would be to require a headshot for a kill (like the sniper) or remove some aim assist. Or do nothing and just remove some ammo from it. The untuned version is no easier to use than the sniper, which isn’t being touched.
  • Who recommended that the weapon ranges be nerfed? Even if this worked on the relatively small arena maps, how would it play out on Warzone and BTB maps? I remember no outcry for changing weapon ranges, only that the weapons should be harder to use (i.e. changing aim-assist) – and that was only if the magnum did not change. The range of the weapons only matters if one weapon has a much longer range and cannot be countered – I don’t think that is an issue in the non-tuned sandbox.
  • The Sniper Rifle, which was unchanged, is now basically impossible to counter with a BR.
  • The Light Rifle, which was unchanged, is now basically impossible to counter with a BR.
  • The Flagnum, which was unchanged, makes the flag-carrier a beast. I have intentionally picked up the flag to engage someone in the opponent’s base – and that doesn’t really make any sense.
Continued...
My Halo sandbox theory:
  • Utility weapons should consist of a high-lethality, high-skill weapon usable at most ranges and a lower-lethality, lower-skill weapon usable at most ranges.
  • Currently the default magnum is close to being a perfect high-end utility weapon – just make it a four-shot perfect kill and slightly decrease aim assist. Simply making it a four shot kill immediately makes the sandbox better without breaking anything else. The untuned BR/DMR/LR are still easier to use and would still have comparable kill times.
  • The AR seems like a natural choice for the low-end utility weapon. The randomness should be removed from the weapon and the perfect kill time should be at the bottom end of the sandbox – but still viable.
  • Randomness should not be a part of any weapon, even autos – every multishot weapon should have a reproducible recoil/spray pattern. That’s the best way to introduce skill to autos. Tap-firing is also a good mechanic, but ideally if there was a defined recoil/spray pattern you would not need to tap fire.
  • Non-power weapon pickups should be balanced based on the utility weapons – within the skill and lethality ranges defined by the two utility weapons usable at slightly differing distances. For example the BR would be easier to use than the DMR, but would have a slightly slower kill time. The high-end utility weapon should have the fastest kill time of the tier 1 weapons and should be the hardest to use. The low-end utility would have the slowest kill time but would be the easiest to use. Don’t worry about artificially making weapons fill roles – have a “sliding scale” of weapons and people will seek out the weapons they are most comfortable with.
  • Power weapons should still be powerful, but should be able to be challenged with utility weapons.
  • Don’t artificially change the range of weapons just to create diversity in the sandbox. Let the skill of the player dictate whether shots are hit at distance. I think the current untuned sandbox does this fairly well.
  • Non-power weapon ranges and perfect kill times should all be very similar. No one should lose a battle and feel like they had zero chance just because of the weapon they were holding. The current untuned H5 sandbox does this fairly well for precision weapons (and would be better with an improved magnum).
  • If grenade hit-markers are going to be a thing, then grenades should be very limited. Spawn with one frag or one frag and one plasma and have 1 or 2 grenade pick-ups on maps. Make using a grenade mean something, currently they are used as an extended radar and often just thrown randomly behind walls.
  • The details of the sandbox should be available in-game at all times. Red reticle range, reload times, perfect kill times, damage per shot, etc. for all weapons should be readily available to anyone who wants the information. Also top down map views detailing weapon pickups should be available and updated as well as any specific gametype information (stronghold capture times for 1/2/3 people, flag return times, etc.).
To sum up – I care. I want Halo to be as successful as it can be. I think everyone posting here or playing this playlist wants to help. But honestly I don’t understand some of the decisions made regarding this test, and there’s almost no interaction with 343 in this thread or in the previous threads regarding this test, so I don’t know what’s being acknowledged on their end. I hope I’m not wasting my time writing this up.
I've seen a fair number of comments where people say, "the BR actually takes skill to use now. I can go into 2v1's and my strafe is so dirty my skill shines through and I win." Well, you may be winning gunfights now because you are adjusting to the changes faster than the other guy. But when people catch up, and winning or losing a gunfight is up to that random bullet spread, you're not going to be happy. If you are a skilled player, you do not want additional random factors added into the game.

I really think this point needs to be stressed. I think a lot of high-level players want Halo 5 to be nearly magnum-only. If the BR is good and you find yourself getting killed by it, go pick one up, or pick up a DMR. And if the BR is such a problem on certain maps, take it out.
My Halo sandbox theory:
  • Currently the default magnum is close to being a perfect high-end utility weapon – just make it a four-shot perfect kill and slightly decrease aim assist. Simply making it a four shot kill immediately makes the sandbox better without breaking anything else. The untuned BR/DMR/LR are still easier to use and would still have comparable kill times.
[Stuff]To sum up – I care. I want Halo to be as successful as it can be. I think everyone posting here or playing this playlist wants to help. But honestly I don’t understand some of the decisions made regarding this test, and there’s almost no interaction with 343 in this thread or in the previous threads regarding this test, so I don’t know what’s being acknowledged on their end. I hope I’m not wasting my time writing this up.
Love your posts and agree almost 100% with everything you said in both just now. Except I wonder if a 4-shot magnum would fundamentally shorten the typical TTK in a way that would break the game balance? Maybe the BR needs to be a 5-shot kill instead, but keep the original (un-tuned) BR? This would fit with your suggested mentality of making the BR a little bit less deadly than the pistol (except at long ranges where it's better), since it's a little easier to use than the pistol (it has more auto-aim and magnetism). People not skilled enough to use the magnum well could still be effective with the BR, but a good magnum-wielder would beat them. Cause if you have a 4sk H5 magnum, I think TTKs may be too fast overall.

Yeah, can we get a shout out from ske7ch or someone at 343 that they're actually reading this thread and considering our feedback? Just makes me appreciate ZaedynFel and his MM feedback threads even more... I'm worried that 343 doesn't give a -Yoink- about this tuning thread feedback, and are just gonna look at their game data from this testing week and say "yup that BR was less deadly, let's go with that". And then I'm going to quit Halo. gg 343. Hopefully they at least keep magnum starts, then i'll just never use this crap new BR, and rock my magnum all the time.
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