Forums / Games / Halo 5: Guardians

[Locked] Weapon Tuning Test - Phase Two Feedback - 9/11

OP ske7ch

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RzR J3ST3R wrote:
Love your posts and agree almost 100% with everything you said in both just now. Except I wonder if a 4-shot magnum would fundamentally shorten the typical TTK in a way that would break the game balance? Maybe the BR needs to be a 5-shot kill instead, but keep the original (un-tuned) BR? This would fit with your suggested mentality of making the BR a little bit less deadly than the pistol (except at long ranges where it's better), since it's a little easier to use than the pistol (it has more auto-aim and magnetism). People not skilled enough to use the magnum well could still be effective with the BR, but a good magnum-wielder would beat them. Cause if you have a 4sk H5 magnum, I think TTKs may be too fast overall.

Yeah, can we get a shout out from ske7ch or someone at 343 that they're actually reading this thread and considering our feedback? Just makes me appreciate ZaedynFel and his MM feedback threads even more... I'm worried that 343 doesn't give a -Yoink- about this tuning thread feedback, and are just gonna look at their game data from this testing week and say "yup that BR was less deadly, let's go with that". And then I'm going to quit Halo. gg 343. Hopefully they at least keep magnum starts, then i'll just never use this crap new BR, and rock my magnum all the time.
I'm open to any weapon being the utility, I just think the magnum is the closest right now. You can always keep reducing auto-aim on the magnum until it feels right without affecting anything else. The light rifle kills in 1.1s right now, so if the magnum was at 1.0s I think that would be fine. And I actually thought when this tuning test was announced that they were going to make the BR more like the magnum, but that didn't happen.

And you're right - why is Menke the only guy at 343 who really interacts with the community? Tom French used to communicate on twitter a lot but he hasn't in a while - but both of those guys are loved by the community because they interact and provide some transparency into their process. Honestly if there was more interaction from 343 there would be more optimism about Halo's direction and less frustration. We're not going to agree with every decision - but why did you make that decision? Help us understand and it will be easier to support going forward.
NightClerk wrote:
I've seen a fair number of comments where people say, "the BR actually takes skill to use now. I can go into 2v1's and my strafe is so dirty my skill shines through and I win." Well, you may be winning gunfights now because you are adjusting to the changes faster than the other guy. But when people catch up, and winning or losing a gunfight is up to that random bullet spread, you're not going to be happy. If you are a skilled player, you do not want additional random factors added into the game.

I really think this point needs to be stressed. I think a lot of high-level players want Halo 5 to be nearly magnum-only. If the BR is good and you find yourself getting killed by it, go pick one up, or pick up a DMR. And if the BR is such a problem on certain maps, take it out.
The way I see the default BR isn't that it does too much damage, it's that it is just too damn easy to use. They made it harder to use, but then made it weaker too which was unnecessary. The tuned BR and the original are equally as bad, but for different reasons imo.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
My Halo sandbox theory:
  • Currently the default magnum is close to being a perfect high-end utility weapon – just make it a four-shot perfect kill and slightly decrease aim assist. Simply making it a four shot kill immediately makes the sandbox better without breaking anything else. The untuned BR/DMR/LR are still easier to use and would still have comparable kill times.
[Stuff]To sum up – I care. I want Halo to be as successful as it can be. I think everyone posting here or playing this playlist wants to help. But honestly I don’t understand some of the decisions made regarding this test, and there’s almost no interaction with 343 in this thread or in the previous threads regarding this test, so I don’t know what’s being acknowledged on their end. I hope I’m not wasting my time writing this up.
Love your posts and agree almost 100% with everything you said in both just now. Except I wonder if a 4-shot magnum would fundamentally shorten the typical TTK in a way that would break the game balance? Maybe the BR needs to be a 5-shot kill instead, but keep the original (un-tuned) BR? This would fit with your suggested mentality of making the BR a little bit less deadly than the pistol (except at long ranges where it's better), since it's a little easier to use than the pistol (it has more auto-aim and magnetism). People not skilled enough to use the magnum well could still be effective with the BR, but a good magnum-wielder would beat them. Cause if you have a 4sk H5 magnum, I think TTKs may be too fast overall.

Yeah, can we get a shout out from ske7ch or someone at 343 that they're actually reading this thread and considering our feedback? Just makes me appreciate ZaedynFel and his MM feedback threads even more... I'm worried that 343 doesn't give a -Yoink- about this tuning thread feedback, and are just gonna look at their game data from this testing week and say "yup that BR was less deadly, let's go with that". And then I'm going to quit Halo. gg 343. Hopefully they at least keep magnum starts, then i'll just never use this crap new BR, and rock my magnum all the time.
Right now the perfect kill time for the default magnum is just over 1.2 seconds. You could make a 4sk magnum, but increase time between shots so it takes say 1.1 seconds for a perfect. Perfect ttk would be slightly shorter but not significantly so, but since there are less shots and they take longer, you are punished more heavily for missing.
I'm a fan of the AR and I use it a lot, and I've known the technique for a while now and it worked but was often overpowered by weapons like the regular magnum, being capable of head shotting and is laser accurate down most ranges. I was hoping the AR would be more balaced againts such weapons but it's the exact opposite it's now almost defective firing in bursts and it remains disbalace, just evenmore so. Tune the weapon not sqaush the technique.
ben897102 wrote:
I'm a fan of the AR and I use it a lot, and I've known the technique for a while now and it worked but was often overpowered by weapons like the regular magnum, being capable of head shotting and is laser accurate down most ranges. I was hoping the AR would be more balaced againts such weapons but it's the exact opposite it's now almost defective firing in bursts and it remains disbalace, just evenmore so. Tune the weapon not sqaush the technique.
Halo has never been based around skill with autos outside anything but very close range, and should never be.

Autos in halo have always been meant either for close quarters work or as a crutch at longer distances for people not yet comfortable with precision weapons. The precision weapons have always dominated, and that's what halo should remain.
Anybody else feel like the spread and slower burst alone shouldn't be enough to account for this inconsistency?
I've seen the bullet hole comparisons but with how big the magnetism is, I feel like those spread bullets should still be drawing towards people at mid range anyway.
But instead, it's all over the place.

Sometimes, I barely swipe my aimer over the guy and it gives me a perfect, yet other times it takes 8 bullets on a guy that's literally running in a straight line towards me...
Like, I'm not even moving my aimer at all, it's pointed right at the same place for all 8 bullets, dead centre in the chin, at a range where the spread should be small enough to still magnetise.
I just don't get it because, the carbine has spread too now and it doesn't have nearly the issues that BR does.

It makes the BR feel really... just not satisfying, not fun.
Getting a perfect with the pistol is like, "nice!"
Getting a perfect with the pre-patch BR is like, "meh, easy."
Getting a perfect with the post-patch BR is like, "meh, I got lucky."

I'm almost wondering if there's some glitch with the implementation, where the burst is emulated rather than "real."
So instead of the 2nd & 3rd bullets actually going where you are CURRENTLY aiming, they go where you were originally aiming when you first shot the burst?
Would that be possible?

I dunno, maybe the spread really is that bad all on its own.
In any case, I just don't find it very fun.
It honestly just makes the connection feel laggy imo.

RzR J3ST3R wrote:
My Halo sandbox theory:
  • Currently the default magnum is close to being a perfect high-end utility weapon – just make it a four-shot perfect kill and slightly decrease aim assist. Simply making it a four shot kill immediately makes the sandbox better without breaking anything else. The untuned BR/DMR/LR are still easier to use and would still have comparable kill times.
[Stuff]To sum up – I care. I want Halo to be as successful as it can be. I think everyone posting here or playing this playlist wants to help. But honestly I don’t understand some of the decisions made regarding this test, and there’s almost no interaction with 343 in this thread or in the previous threads regarding this test, so I don’t know what’s being acknowledged on their end. I hope I’m not wasting my time writing this up.
Love your posts and agree almost 100% with everything you said in both just now. Except I wonder if a 4-shot magnum would fundamentally shorten the typical TTK in a way that would break the game balance? Maybe the BR needs to be a 5-shot kill instead, but keep the original (un-tuned) BR? This would fit with your suggested mentality of making the BR a little bit less deadly than the pistol (except at long ranges where it's better), since it's a little easier to use than the pistol (it has more auto-aim and magnetism). People not skilled enough to use the magnum well could still be effective with the BR, but a good magnum-wielder would beat them. Cause if you have a 4sk H5 magnum, I think TTKs may be too fast overall.

Yeah, can we get a shout out from ske7ch or someone at 343 that they're actually reading this thread and considering our feedback? Just makes me appreciate ZaedynFel and his MM feedback threads even more... I'm worried that 343 doesn't give a -Yoink- about this tuning thread feedback, and are just gonna look at their game data from this testing week and say "yup that BR was less deadly, let's go with that". And then I'm going to quit Halo. gg 343. Hopefully they at least keep magnum starts, then i'll just never use this crap new BR, and rock my magnum all the time.
I know this might be a very "non-halo" suggestion since it's always traditionally been a shield-head dynamic but...
What if the pistol was only a 4-shot if all 4 shots were to the head?

I mean maybe it doesn't make sense but let's be honest, neither does recoil for a spartan.
Purely in terms of a game mechanic, what do you guys think?
My Halo sandbox theory:
  • Utility weapons should consist of a high-lethality, high-skill weapon usable at most ranges and a lower-lethality, lower-skill weapon usable at most ranges.
  • Currently the default magnum is close to being a perfect high-end utility weapon – just make it a four-shot perfect kill and slightly decrease aim assist. Simply making it a four shot kill immediately makes the sandbox better without breaking anything else. The untuned BR/DMR/LR are still easier to use and would still have comparable kill times.
  • The AR seems like a natural choice for the low-end utility weapon. The randomness should be removed from the weapon and the perfect kill time should be at the bottom end of the sandbox – but still viable.
  • Randomness should not be a part of any weapon, even autos – every multishot weapon should have a reproducible recoil/spray pattern. That’s the best way to introduce skill to autos. Tap-firing is also a good mechanic, but ideally if there was a defined recoil/spray pattern you would not need to tap fire.
  • Non-power weapon pickups should be balanced based on the utility weapons – within the skill and lethality ranges defined by the two utility weapons usable at slightly differing distances. For example the BR would be easier to use than the DMR, but would have a slightly slower kill time. The high-end utility weapon should have the fastest kill time of the tier 1 weapons and should be the hardest to use. The low-end utility would have the slowest kill time but would be the easiest to use. Don’t worry about artificially making weapons fill roles – have a “sliding scale” of weapons and people will seek out the weapons they are most comfortable with.
  • Power weapons should still be powerful, but should be able to be challenged with utility weapons.
  • Don’t artificially change the range of weapons just to create diversity in the sandbox. Let the skill of the player dictate whether shots are hit at distance. I think the current untuned sandbox does this fairly well.
  • Non-power weapon ranges and perfect kill times should all be very similar. No one should lose a battle and feel like they had zero chance just because of the weapon they were holding. The current untuned H5 sandbox does this fairly well for precision weapons (and would be better with an improved magnum).
  • If grenade hit-markers are going to be a thing, then grenades should be very limited. Spawn with one frag or one frag and one plasma and have 1 or 2 grenade pick-ups on maps. Make using a grenade mean something, currently they are used as an extended radar and often just thrown randomly behind walls.
  • The details of the sandbox should be available in-game at all times. Red reticle range, reload times, perfect kill times, damage per shot, etc. for all weapons should be readily available to anyone who wants the information. Also top down map views detailing weapon pickups should be available and updated as well as any specific gametype information (stronghold capture times for 1/2/3 people, flag return times, etc.).
To sum up – I care. I want Halo to be as successful as it can be. I think everyone posting here or playing this playlist wants to help. But honestly I don’t understand some of the decisions made regarding this test, and there’s almost no interaction with 343 in this thread or in the previous threads regarding this test, so I don’t know what’s being acknowledged on their end. I hope I’m not wasting my time writing this up.
I really appreciate the perspective you are bringing to the thread and just want you to know that even if the 343 guys don't respond to it or acknowledge it, I appreciate it.
After hearing about the BR feeling off I decided to play the tuning test and people were right it felt wrong like the shots weren't even doing damage similar to Halo 3 BR in which the bullets were less damage.
One final note can someone explain what changed in the Active Camo because when I used it the power up felt the same.
After hearing about the BR feeling off I decided to play the tuning test and people were right it felt wrong like the shots weren't even doing damage similar to Halo 3 BR in which the bullets were less damage.
One final note can someone explain what changed in the Active Camo because when I used it the power up felt the same.
Pretty sure the full transparency is in effect at walking speed now instead of just crouch-walking speed.
eLantern wrote:
After hearing about the BR feeling off I decided to play the tuning test and people were right it felt wrong like the shots weren't even doing damage similar to Halo 3 BR in which the bullets were less damage.
One final note can someone explain what changed in the Active Camo because when I used it the power up felt the same.
Pretty sure the full transparency is in effect at walking speed now instead of just crouch-walking speed.
Walking speed you're pretty much invisible, fast walking you start to show. On Truth it seems just as effective as before likely due to the lighting, on fathom it works really well.
it is good. Although it was fun to get back in ranked arena.got 5 kills with the smg
Fix beatdowns and grenade damage instead of his bs lmfao,weapons were perfect now they are all horrendous ty
Placed in the list the other day and found the starting battle rifle much more frustrating than balanced. It seemed that every other time I would either get a perfect or squeeze five bursts into someone's melon and have them dance around unscathed. To be fair I am totally fine with the fire rate being slower. Strongly feel that the bullet spread needs to be tightened up. It just felt too random to get a good feel for the BR tuning.
After playing a few more matches I can say that I really like the new BR, after reviewing alot of my footage it seems pretty fair in that it's just slightly easier to miss due to the magnetism, however as a whole it IS a little frustrating going for headshots at medium range, I think the Spread is the culprit, you can get alot of hitmarkers on their head when they're blinking and they wont go down which can be very frustrating, especially if your aim was good on the shot.
This playlist is so frustrating. Can't stand playing it more than a few games.
does halo take into account when someone quits on your team from not deranking you too much when you lose?
I have been loving the weapons tuning test. The game feels fresher and the weapons feel much more well defined. There's been multiple occasions where I purposely dropped the BR for the Carbine or DMR while still holding onto the Gunfighter. That would've very rarely been the case in the past. Traditionally I would've always had either the magnum and/or BR and not thought twice about picking anything else up.

Regarding the BR. I do agree I have encountered a fair amount of inconsistency at longer range with it where I might be looking down sights and deliver what appears to be a headshot for the kill but nothing happens. I'd like to see the randomness of the spread at distance dealt with alternatively, such as stronger recoil or just weaker damage. However, I do very much enjoy the new loadout. The BR for all intents and purposes at this iteration is like the magnum and the Gunfighter is much preferred to the old AR. It is a challenging weapon to use at first but can be quite effective in spots. It's definitely more rewarding than just spraying with the AR (which definitely had too much range before).

I would be perfectly happy with the newly tuned weapons finding their way into the arena full time. I know there is great consternation over the potential loss of the Magnum, but honestly that doesn't bother me. While a good 1v1 Magnum battle can be fun, the variety and increased TTK that I'm seeing is very enjoyable.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
I know this might be a very "non-halo" suggestion since it's always traditionally been a shield-head dynamic but...
What if the pistol was only a 4-shot if all 4 shots were to the head?

I mean maybe it doesn't make sense but let's be honest, neither does recoil for a spartan.
Purely in terms of a game mechanic, what do you guys think?
I haven't thought of this but it would definitely add to the skill curve more than just making the magnum a 4 shot (3 body 1 head). And if you did this to the current magnum you probably wouldn't even need to touch the aim-assist. These are the kind of ideas we should be testing IMO.
I have been loving the weapons tuning test. The game feels fresher and the weapons feel much more well defined. There's been multiple occasions where I purposely dropped the BR for the Carbine or DMR while still holding onto the Gunfighter. That would've very rarely been the case in the past. Traditionally I would've always had either the magnum and/or BR and not thought twice about picking anything else up.

Regarding the BR. I do agree I have encountered a fair amount of inconsistency at longer range with it where I might be looking down sights and deliver what appears to be a headshot for the kill but nothing happens. I'd like to see the randomness of the spread at distance dealt with alternatively, such as stronger recoil or just weaker damage. However, I do very much enjoy the new loadout. The BR for all intents and purposes at this iteration is like the magnum and the Gunfighter is much preferred to the old AR. It is a challenging weapon to use at first but can be quite effective in spots. It's definitely more rewarding than just spraying with the AR (which definitely had too much range before).

I would be perfectly happy with the newly tuned weapons finding their way into the arena full time. I know there is great consternation over the potential loss of the Magnum, but honestly that doesn't bother me. While a good 1v1 Magnum battle can be fun, the variety and increased TTK that I'm seeing is very enjoyable.
the nerfed ar takes skill. you have to get really close but because of the new motion tracker, players are able to smartly move their way towards players undetected. I want AR starts just for variety. I dont like starting with 2 precision weapons. and i have to say im enjoying the BR more than the gunfighter magnum.
Why can't we just remove autos... Nerfing the weapons still make all the weapons the same. The skill gap between autos is still going to be small if not there at all. someone with a SMG or AR should never be able to be someone with a BR. This is supposed to be a skill based game. And why can't we have a revamped version of assault and bring oddball back to competitive. Also, I'm okay with the spartan abilities. The only one I don't like is spartan charge because it rewards people who don't think.
the nerfed ar takes skill. you have to get really close but because of the new motion tracker, players are able to smartly move their way towards players undetected. I want AR starts just for variety. I dont like starting with 2 precision weapons. and i have to say im enjoying the BR more than the gunfighter magnum.
The AR will never take skill
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