Forums / Games / Halo 5: Guardians

[Locked] Weapon Tuning Test - Phase Two Feedback - 9/11

OP ske7ch

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RzR J3ST3R wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
Rail gun is now useless imo
Tuning test is over. Rail gun is back to normal.

And the majority seemed to like the changes to the Rail gun. It just took a little more planning when using it. It is too easy to use in its current form.
I did not come away with that sense at all, reading this thread. I personally despise the weaker railgun. It's nearly useless at the faster pace of high-level games. And I got the sense that many here on the forums agreed with me. Yes there were some who liked it, but I don't think that was a majority opinion necessarily.
I could be remembering this wrong. I wish we had a breakdown of how many liked what in this thread.
If only there was a technology where people could respond to a question (e.g .did you like the new railgun) with a yes/no response, and those responses would be counted and displayed. If such technology existed, surely 343 would have used it on this forum.
Are you being sarcastic? Because that sounds like a poll to me, and it definitely would have been nice for them to have had an official one alongside the feedback forum.

Oh well, if I have time I will go through all of these posts and see if I can come up with it.
Lol yes i thought it was so obvious that I could omit the /s. ;-)
I really shouldn't admit it, but I am very literal. It gets me into trouble sometimes.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
eLantern wrote:
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
eLantern wrote:
[Suggestion to make damage variable according to distance]
The problem with this IMO is that it becomes too hard to know (and communicate) how weak enemies are. Commonly now you can cross map an enemy then make callouts like "pink 1, two shot", and have that mean something, because you know exactly how much damage your shots did when you got hit-markers. If the damage is variable, it breaks that awesome dynamic in the game, or makes it overly complex to the point that it's simply impossible to communicate in a fast-paced game.
The most important form of communication revolving damage is the "one shot" callout which would not be impacted by this change because of the visual indication of an opponent's shields breaking. While I suppose communication beyond the "one shot" call-out could get a little murky when outside a weapon's RRR I think it still presents a very favorable trade-off given the benefits that would be realized.
Well certainly at the pro player level, callouts like "two-shot" and "got one on him" are very common. You hear them all the time in their twitch streams. And I'd like to know if I shoot a guy 4 times with my magnum that he will actually be 1-shot, rather than be unsure if he's 2-shot or 1-shot. A lot of the split second decisions you make about challenging or not challenging rely upon knowing how many shots up you'll be in the fight if you challenge.

Right now it's worth peeking cross-map to try and get a hit on a guy your teammate is fighting, because it will mean 1 fewer shot they have to hit. if your shot from cross map isn't worth a full hit, it becomes too complicated to figure out whether it's worth trying to get that cross map hit, cause it might not help your teammate enough to matter, if your shots are weaker.
Yes, at the Pro level a variety of call-outs are extremely common, but also worth noting is that at the Pro level the players are extremely good at adapting to the intricacies and complexities of the game. I can't imagine that it will never be worth peeking cross-map to try and help a teammate out by landing some assisting shots onto the opponent they're engaged with. I think you're simply over complicating the matter. A player will always be able to rely on the known damage factor within the weapon's red reticle range which is what helps make them effective within their given range roles and outside of the known effective range there's suppose to be some uncertainty and reliability issues. It's really pretty simple.

If 343i's only other option to ensure their sandbox weapons are functioning effectively within their intended range roles and not beyond is to add more random variance to them how is the decision to cross-map assist any different? The complexity there exists with players having to weigh the likelihood that their shot can even land where their reticle may indicate it should land. I'd argue that a missed shot via artificial bullet variance is a lot more costly than a less powerful shot that travels where the reticle indicated it would travel thus actually impacting the opponent.
It bothers me that the Gunfighter Magnum has Smart Link now. I liked how it was unique before and had iron sights instead of Smart Link (and I also found the old zoom features easier to use than this new one). The new Smart Link feels weird and I find it hard to use with the different (stronger) recoil of the gunfighter magnum.
DaxSeven09 wrote:
BR's def off possibly shorter range/less accurate burst spread. also why can't Spartan's choose which primary Rifle we spawn with in Slayer playlists?
Just so you know...the testing is actually over. That is why the playlist no longer is titled Weapon Tuning, and returned to Team Arena.

And choosing which rifle you spawn with was removed after Halo 4. Everyone spawning with the same weapons is more balanced, and how Halo has always been and should be.
Halo 4 spawning with anything was pretty dumb but thankfully that's over and done
After playing many games in the weapon tuning test, I want to voice my feedback. I understand most of the changes being implemented and I agree with them. I have a few minor comments and one major one. As far as minor adjustments, the battle rifle just feels... off. I found myself losing firefights I knew, without a doubt, I should have won. I would, and still do, win similar engagements in other game modes. The battle rifle felt like shots weren't connecting, even though there were hit markers. I attribute that to the bullets firing in a paced volley as opposed to reached their target at virtually the same time. The SMG was noticeably less effective at longer ranges and the active camo was definitely harder to detect. Both of these changes were met with mixed feelings. I'm glad for the changes in some ways and less so in other. Other weapons felt pretty much the same. Except for my major gripe.

For the love of all that is good, PLEASE DO NOT NERF MY RAILGUN. The railgun has been my favorite weapon since I first got it into my hands in Halo 4 and it has been my favorite weapon ever since, only rivaled by the sticky detonator. I felt it was so great because it rewarded timing and accuracy. If you could keep your reticle over the enemy when it finished charging - BOOM! - you have one less enemy. None of the shotty "Spray and Pray" of other weapons. Knowing when to hold the trigger for the full length of the charge, when to release at the first opportunity, or swapping away the weapon and resetting without wasting the shot was all part of the know-how of the weapon and would help you succeed over others in railgun fights. My favorite game modes alongside SWAT and Oddball were (and still are) Rock and Rail and Husky Raid (which has been replaced with Super Fiesta, another different but welcome change). I love these game modes because I get the opportunity to test my skills with all the weapons and the feeling of being able to outshoot a player holding "power weapons" or "ordinance" while using a standard load out weapon feels wonderful, but still can't beat the feeling of outsmarting and outgunning another railgun user with your own railgun. The exhilaration of knowing your missed shot can and will result in your death.

With all of that nostalgia, I am left to wonder why the railgun needs a slower charge time. Using the weapon within the tuning test was simply painful. Holding the weapon for far longer than I was used to in order to land a kill made everything about it seem useless and wasteful. Why wait so long for a long distance kill when I can drop two or three enemy players in the same time with higher precision over long distances with any sniper rifle? And why wait so long to charge the shot in close-ish quarters when you will easily be outclassed by another weapon and likely miss anyway because the sensitivity is too low to keep up with your opponent even on the highest settings? It is even outclassed in mid ranges by the likes of basically every other weapon. I would understand the nerf to the Whiplash variant of the railgun as I feel it charges way too fast and takes little skill to use. Despite this, if I find one on the ground or load out with it in Fiesta, I will make use of it because I know my railgun familiarity will more than allow for me to get free kills. But giving the regular railgun a charge time comparable or slower than that of the Arclight in its current state, without the perks of holding on to the shot, is a foolish idea in my mind and does little to nothing for the player. The railgun is STILL my most favored weapon, even with the Whiplash being a much more effective variant, because the railgun still comes with a rewarding feeling. Every time I get a kill with the railgun means I was able to match my aim with the timing of loosing the projectile and it rewards dedication, a steady aim, and a cool temperament. And each landed shot is just as rewarding as the last.

It is my belief that changing the charge time on the railgun to what it was during the tuning test would be a mistake as many would likely not find the weapon worth their time to pick up. If you must nerf a railgun, take it to the legitimate problem (in my experience): the Whiplash. Even in close quarters, the railgun requires leagues more accuracy than other weapons in order to utilize it effectively. Thank you for your time and consideration 343. I look forward to what more you will do with your games.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
eLantern wrote:
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
eLantern wrote:
[Suggestion to make damage variable according to distance]
The problem with this IMO is that it becomes too hard to know (and communicate) how weak enemies are. Commonly now you can cross map an enemy then make callouts like "pink 1, two shot", and have that mean something, because you know exactly how much damage your shots did when you got hit-markers. If the damage is variable, it breaks that awesome dynamic in the game, or makes it overly complex to the point that it's simply impossible to communicate in a fast-paced game.
@Double A

To add to the communication argument above vs your BR spread points:

You argue the law of averages will ensure that BR spread will affect teams evenly by the end of the match, but that presumes all kills are equal. If a guy misses his four shot (through no fault of his own) when I'm about to cap his flag, is that lack of kill equal to me "missing" perfect shots on him when he is out of position bottom mid? No. All kills are not equal is halo. Even in slayer on map weapons play the role of an objective, therefore making certain kills carry more weight in the overall match.

Also: the game causing you to miss shots JUST ISN'T FUN. You aren't going to be able to argue people into playing something they don't enjoy, especially as someone who hasn't play themselves for a month.
From my understanding of the tuned BR, the spread is only relevant at long range/at a range where 343 wants to punish you for using the BR.

In other words, at the range 343 wants you to use the BR, the spread becomes irrelevant and you hit all of your shots. Outside that range, some chance is introduced to punish you, getting worse with distance. Is my understanding correct?

If my understanding is correct, your flag kill analogy is irrelevant. If you try to stop the flag with your BR from a distance, there is a chance spread will screw you over. In this case, you deserved it. So yes, not all kills are equal. But you are taking a chance and you must face the consequences if you risk using the BR outside its range.

If the BR spread is relevant at all ranges, than you have a point and I am against the BR spread.

But I still disagree that it lowers skill or allows less skilled players to win. The law of averages still applies and the enemy team is just as likely to miss a critical kill.

Here is a simple question for you and be honest. Do you believe that with the BR spread, current pros will be replaced by new pros? Do you believe that players that are currently amateurs or semi pros would be able to defeat the pros because of spread? Do you believe that golds will all of a sudden become onyx players and many onyx players will fall to diamond? I believe that is preposterous and ridiculous. The more skilled players are still going to be at the top and the better plays will still defeat the worse players.

The fun argument however makes sense. If you don't like it because it seems less fun, you should let your opinion be heard. But you shouldn't make up stuff like noobs will escape their shackles and enact revenge on more skilled players.
Adair W117 wrote:
  1. I did notice that the plasma pistol runs out of ammo too quickly to be any effective.
They made no changes to the Plasma Pistol. That and the Weapon Tuning Playlist is not in the game anymore. What playlist were you playing?
BR's def off possibly shorter range/less accurate burst spread. also why can't Spartan's choose which primary Rifle we spawn with in Slayer playlists?
Not being able to choose what we spawn with is a design decision made by 343i after people reacted negatively to Halo 4's system. It messed with the balance of the game as anyone could just spawn in with a BR or DMR and destroy anyone who had other weapons. I understand why you want this, it makes your Spartan feel more personal, but ultimately, the way they went with Arena in Halo 5 favours skill over spawning with the best weapons
so why re-tune weapons if everyone is supposed to be more equal. I'll admit i did pretty bad in WTT, 3/7 out of qualifying rounds. but shouldn't weapons function as they always have?
Balance has never been an easy thing, the BR for example, for the most part, has been a little too powerful, it was way too easy to land all shots and get perfects. The retune was designed to make the weapon more akin to its older incarnations, getting perfects is meant to be a reward for good aim. Other weapons, like the SMG, were too effective outside their intended range, this needed to be toned down. I believe someone from 343i would be infinitely better at explaining this than me though
I am not trying to be mean or insult anyone but your service record shows 282 perfects on 10317 BR kills that amounts to just under 3% perfect rate. So 3 out of every 100 kills are perfect and you say the BR is too easy to use. Even a pro or former pro like Naded only perfects at around 11% so I just don't understand how one can say the BR is too easy to use.
Do I really have that many BR kills? Anyway, think about all the previous Halo games, how easy was it to land a perfect on a target at any range? It wasn't easy, most of those perfects are most likely in mid to close range engagements, a BR shouldn't be too effective in CQC and at distance at the same time. The BR, as I've already said, is too easy to use. It had to be changed to work more effectively
Halo CE was not easy to get a 3 shot however it was never played massively online I think there was an XBC version but lag was a horrible problem. Halo 2 was not that hard to 4 shot. Halo 3 became much more difficult because of the random bullet spread, the one thing it seems like most people dislike about the retuned BR. Halo 4 again not that hard especially since you weren't descoped when taking damage. However all of these earlier Halo's had basic movement, yes 4 had sprint but the others were basic strafe left or right and jump. Halo 5's movement in my opinion is so much faster and unpredictable you need a more accurate gun. I do think the BR's range should be reduced but. I still contend one reason the BR seems so effective against smg's and AR's is that auto wielding players tend to forget to strafe. A good strafing AR player can defeat the pretuned BR at close range. I am going to play Halo no matter what 343 decides to do but, I feel this change if applied may drive away more players than bring them back.
I feel that the fuel rod cannon is too slow at the time of shooting, I think that's the charm of this weapon, it does not have much reach its explosion and damage compared to the rocket launcher and the SPnKr, but that is compensated with its fire rate; with respect to grenade launcher, very good job now is much more effective and fun to use; having the Gunfighter Magnum inside the main weapons made me more interested in learning how to use it.
DoubIe A wrote:
From my understanding of the tuned BR, the spread is only relevant at long range/at a range where 343 wants to punish you for using the BR.

In other words, at the range 343 wants you to use the BR, the spread becomes irrelevant and you hit all of your shots. Outside that range, some chance is introduced to punish you, getting worse with distance. Is my understanding correct?

If my understanding is correct, your flag kill analogy is irrelevant. If you try to stop the flag with your BR from a distance, there is a chance spread will screw you over. In this case, you deserved it. So yes, not all kills are equal. But you are taking a chance and you must face the consequences if you risk using the BR outside its range.

If the BR spread is relevant at all ranges, than you have a point and I am against the BR spread.

But I still disagree that it lowers skill or allows less skilled players to win. The law of averages still applies and the enemy team is just as likely to miss a critical kill.

Here is a simple question for you and be honest. Do you believe that with the BR spread, current pros will be replaced by new pros? Do you believe that players that are currently amateurs or semi pros would be able to defeat the pros because of spread? Do you believe that golds will all of a sudden become onyx players and many onyx players will fall to diamond? I believe that is preposterous and ridiculous. The more skilled players are still going to be at the top and the better plays will still defeat the worse players.

The fun argument however makes sense. If you don't like it because it seems less fun, you should let your opinion be heard. But you shouldn't make up stuff like noobs will escape their shackles and enact revenge on more skilled players.
There was noticeable spread even within RRR. I couldn't really test if all bullets always hit in RRR, but I doubt it.

The "law of averages" argument is the wrong argument here. The real argument is why should any randomness/luck be introduced where it doesn't already exist? Does it make the game more competitive? Does it make the game better? What exactly is the benefit?

343 has a stated goal of artificially limiting weapon ranges. Personally I don't understand that goal or believe that it will benefit the game, but regardless, there are a number of ways they could do that. Their choice to introduce randomness is what people have an issue with.

The law of averages applies over an extended period of time. In a 50 kill game (and flag games can be less or more than that) "luck" could be highly skewed one way or the other. Who wants to lose (or win) because of luck? Not anyone who takes the game seriously. (And there is already luck in Halo spawns/nade bounces/etc. - I know that. But why introduce more?)

And you ask good questions about pros but they're the wrong questions. Sure the same pros will be pros and bad players won't beat pros. But will teams lose games/matches in tournaments that they shouldn't because of the added randomness? Yes, it absolutely would happen. That's the real issue.

It's sort of the same thing Josh Menke stated with the AR - above a diamond level AR vs. AR was more about luck than skill, and the numbers proved it. Obviously the tuned BR is still more skillful than the AR, but introducing randomness can do nothing but decrease the skill gap. It's just logic.
UPDATE: The Weapon Tuning Test has officially come to an end as of Monday, Oct. 2. Thank you to everyone for playing and sharing so much feedback - your input and participation is greatly appreciated. The sandbox team is currently processing and reviewing feedback and game data to inform additional iteration and tweaks that will be included in the November update for Halo 5. We'll be providing an in-depth look at exactly what's changing - and why - in the coming weeks.

In the meantime, please know that while many of the tuning items landed as intended and had the desired impact, we understand some did not. The BR in particular was something that garnered overwhelmingly negative reaction. The BR is definitely getting some love and fine tuning based on feedback, survey results, and game data. Some of the tuning items will ship exactly as what you helped test, many others will receive various degrees of additional tweaks and improvements before November. Again, we'll be sharing all of those details and background as soon as they're locked. Once these new-tuned items are released broadly in November, we'll still be watching very closely and monitoring data and feedback, and already have plans and processes in place to facilitate additional tweaks if warranted.

Thanks again to everyone who participated in this test - it was a learning experience on a number of levels and really the first of its kind for a Halo game. We look forward to sharing the results soon and to your continued partnership and feedback as we continue to refine and improve Halo into the future.
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