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[Locked] Weapon Tuning Test - Phase Two Feedback - 9/11

OP ske7ch

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BR takes way too long to kill someone I would understand if the BR shot as fast as the H2 BR then the spread bursts would work better. How it is now it just makes the BR seem really slow and inconsistent. I would just make harder to kill someone at long range. DMR,Carbine, AR, SMG, gunfighter mag seem fine. I think the rail takes a little too long to charge a tad faster i would be ok with it. Camo i think is better but still visible as you move/walk i think it should stay invisible as you move/walk. If you sprint, fire your weapon, melee, throw a grenade, or get hit then it should make it visible thats my only issue if you can change it to where camo remain invisible as you move then it would be perfect in my opinion. I have not used the rest of the remaining weapons on the list but when i do i will give you my feedback.

Thank you
Actually the H2 BR shoots slower than the H5 BR. Just saying
You know, what would be cool is if you guys were more specific with what tunes you guys were doing similar to the patch notes in the Halo Wars 2 forum.

I really felt like in the last community update that the changes talked about weren't specific...

for example the br, you guys said

"Currently the Halo 5 BR is a bit too effective at all ranges, so the tuning update is designed to help better distinguish its prowess in mid-range engagements"

When you could of said. Right now the BR's bullets stays accurate till about "#" meters. We have changed that to "#" to help better distinguish its prowess in mid-range engagements"

This would give us a clearer perspective on these changes and see where these changes effect us on the field.

Im not trying to bash, and I understand you guys may want to keep things simple. But the players really out here doing the tests care about these details. Not to say the ones that don't care about the detail don't care but maybe aren't looking under the hood as deeply as the ones who are.

Thanks for reading.

(added)

Id love to see

Fire rate

accuracy (how far down range till bullet beging to range direction(if any) If theres a straight like, at how far till its out of the circle of which is considered a miss)

reload speed

zoom

auto-aim characteristics. (at what range the reticle goes red)

Things like that. IDK im sure theres more stuff besides that. I wanna see.
General thoughts. The Storm Rifle and Sniper are even more of a monster now. The GF Mag is useless at any kind of range the SR still outclasses every other close range weapon in a very easy to use package. Challenging a sniper at range is a dumber thing to do now than it was before. Getting a de-scope on a sniper so you can move has been a staple sniper counter-play in Halo forever and with the new BR and piss-easy sniper, that strategy is basically dead. Your spawn utility weapon needs to accomplish this at least at the limits of its range.

Here is my take on the BR:

Good:
Toned down AA and bullet magnetism - Very happy with these changes. Gun was piss-easy before

Don't care:
Recoil - A lot of complaining about this but the gun returns to center before you can fire again so the only compensation you need to make is to aim a little lower the farther out the target. The bigger issue with the recoil is how it screw with your line of sight.

Bad:
Random spread - The spread is a fairly tight circle, tighter than H3, but its still random and -Yoinks!- you at longer ranges. wtf stop it. make it short and linear or get rid of it.
Fire rate - I can't tell if the base fire rate is slower or if its just the spacing between the 3 rounds of the burst (or both) but its definitely slow. I was an advocate for spacing out the 3 rounds a little more but keeping the total TTK the same, and this feels like total overkill.
Close Range - fighting up close with this weapon feels artificially difficult. Cant tell if its the aiming, the Aim Assist changes or a combination.
TLDR; The problem with the BR was that it would aim for you and bend bullets around corners. Those issues have been resolved, but then a bunch of other unnecessary -Yoink- was done on top of that. KISS.

SMG: I like the changes to this actually. It melts close range, but simply thrusting backwards takes you out of that range to get a kill with a more skillful weapon.

AR: This still feels like it can destroy too easily. a slow tap-fire (release every 4 or 5 bullets) keeps the spread under control and still extends the range significantly.

DMR: AA and Magnetism toned down so this sits in a good place now imo. My only complaint is that like the BR, this feels artificially difficult to aim with up close.

GF Mag: Still undecided. Can't tell if i'm not used to the fire rate or if getting headshots is (again) artificially difficult.

Hitboxes general: Either the hitboxes have been made tighter, or this is a consequence of the bullet magnetism reduction, but you actually have to aim for the head to get a headshot now, which is a welcome change!!! (except for the sniper of course)

I have not had enough reps with the other weapons to provide any kind of educated opinion.
My general sentiment is positive. The AA and magnetism reductions across the board are welcome but... if those don't get extended to at least the sniper, it will become even more of a monster than it already is. ALL close-range battles just feel awkward. Hard to pin down why.

Phase 3 of this needs to re-tweak the BR, and try default magnum and AR starts.

EDIT: One thing i do not understand.... why does it seem like the BR is the new weapon that everything else is getting balanced around?? The original magnum was probably the most well-conceived weapon in the game. Why are we not testing a slight tweaked version of that with all the other items being pick ups?

Hopefully the BR is the starting weapon because it is the most drastically changed weapon and you want to get as many reps as possible on it, not because its actually going to become the default start weapon.
The new BR is terrible. Please give us back our magnums!!!
What where the changes on the weapons?
I like BR now as loadout weapon, but if you want put it at all playlist, especially warzone, its a weapon too bad. regular magnum, light rifle and carabine are better than BR. BR in warzone will be useless
if you want an example look at the light rifles on fathom.
i like arena BR but in the future i think that all main weapons must be revalanced
What ever you have done to the Battle rifle KEEP IT! it feels more like the halo 2/3 BR now instead of that laser pointer that was in the game originally.
I can't be the only one thinking this: Are you going to share the exact details of these changes? The descriptions given here are nebulous and don't explain the specific changes being made:

Quote:
ASSAULT RIFLE
The iconic AR is a fully automatic weapon that’s fairly effective at mid-range via burst-firing, but more effective at close-range when the trigger is held down. The weapon tuning changes to the AR are designed to reward more skillful use. If you recall, back in April, we revealed there wasn't much difference between a Diamond level player and a Champion level player in regards to AR effectiveness.
This retuned version should be more rewarding when used effectively and hopefully more balanced when battling players that are wielding different weapons.

BATTLE RIFLE
The Battle Rifle is another iconic Halo weapon that’s known for high-accuracy burst fire and exceling at mid-range combat. Currently the Halo 5 BR is a bit too effective at all ranges, so the tuning update is designed to help better distinguish its prowess in mid-range engagements. This isn't to say that the BR will outright lose any fight in close or longer ranges either - an accurate player who lands their shots should be able to have a fighting chance even at close-range. This is something we'll be monitoring closely.

CARBINE
The Carbine is a highly-accurate, fast-firing semi-automatic weapon that’s great at suppressing opponents and cleaning up kills. Today in Halo 5, the Carbine is overly effective at long range, so the upcoming tuning update changes are aimed at strengthening its role as a rapid-fire suppression rifle without being dominant and oppressive from far distances.

DMR
The Designated Marksman Rifle is an accurate, semi-automatic weapon that’s designed to shine in long-range combat while being less effective at mid-range and even less so at close-range. Currently the DMR is living outside that intended role. The desired tuning adjustments to the DMR are to strengthen its place in the sandbox as the long-range marksman weapon that’s very capable of attacking far away opponents but isn’t as dominant in close-quarters engagements.

GUNFIGHTER MAGNUM
The Gunfighter Magnum fills the role of a fast-firing, semi-automatic sidearm with medium accuracy that excels at close-range. This weapon generally performs as intended, but the tuning update is directed at making the weapon slightly less effective at longer ranges, so that it really stands out as a close-range weapon that can go toe-to-toe with other close-range weapons with some accurate shooting.

SMG
The SMG is designed to be a high-rate-of-fire-but-inaccurate-bullet-hose of a weapon. It’s intended for close-quarters combat, and to be less ideal at longer engagement distances. In the current sandbox, the SMG is a bit too effective outside of its role as a close-range weapon. The tuning changes to the SMG are designed to more clearly establish and cement the close-range role of this weapon.

ACTIVE CAMO
The lone power-up included in this tuning update is Active Camo. As everyone knows, the role of this power-up is pretty straightforward – when picked up, it makes a player harder to see! However, in some cases Active Camo is slightly less effective than desired, so the tuning tweaks are aimed at making it bit more of a valuable power-up for players.

ENERGY SWORD
The iconic Energy Sword is a long-time staple of the Halo sandbox that fills the role of a melee weapon that’s very effective at close range, and includes the ability to lunge at targets. In Halo 5, players that are wielding the Energy Sword also gain a movement speed boost that makes them more difficult to target, and an even more dangerous threat (especially if they’re sprinting). As it stands, players with an Energy Sword in-hand are able to traverse maps a little too quickly and close the distance with an opponent a little too effectively in some scenarios so the tuning tweaks are designed to address this.

BEAM RIFLE
The Beam Rifle is the Covenant’s answer to the classic UNSC Sniper Rifle, and fills the role of an effective mid to very long range weapon with a very fast rate of fire but with the downside of potential overheating. In March, Halo 5 received a small update that included a tuning tweak to the UNSC Sniper Rifle to make it a bit less effective when firing from the hip. The Beam Rifle currently has the same issue the USNC Sniper Rifle once did – it’s a bit too effective against targets when fired from the hip. The tuning changes being made to the Beam Rifle are designed to create parity with the UNSC Sniper Rifle update that went live in March, ensuring both weapons continue to excel in their intended roles but don’t over-excel in hip-firing situations.

FUEL ROD CANNON
The Fuel Rod Cannon fills the role of an explosive projectile power weapon with a high rate of fire. The projectiles’ blast radius, coupled with the high rate of fire, has yielded some problematic results in the heat of battle, so the tuning update aims to address that.

GRENADE LAUNCHER
The Grenade Launcher was an awesome addition to the Halo 5 sandbox when it debuted with the Monitor’s Bounty update in December. This weapon fills a unique role – it fires ballistic grenades which detonate with explosive damage after one bounce. As a bonus, the trigger can be held and then released manually to detonate the grenade and add an EMP blast which can stun vehicles for a short time. The tuning update to the Grenade Launcher is aimed at further establishing its role as a mid-tier weapon that’s versatile at applying indirect damage through creative use. This includes how fast the grenade travels, how it bounces, etc…

RAIL GUN
The intended role of the Rail Gun is a “sniper” style of weapon that can be charged up to kill an opponent from mid to long range in a single shot. Currently in Halo 5, the Rail Gun has excelled outside its intended role by being overly effective at close range, and as a snapshot weapon – instead of being a carefully planned, charging Sniper weapon. The tuning adjustments to the Rail Gun are designed to make the weapon require a bit more deliberate, planned usage in battle.

In order to keep these changes focused and prevent potential issues with multiple versions of the same weapon floating around, the re-tuned versions of these items will only exist in the specially designated playlist – you’ll be unable to use these weapons in Custom Games or Forge.
This is very vague. Will the BR still be a 4-shot? Are they lowering its RRR? How exactly are they changing the AR? Will the Railgun go back to being projectile? How do they plan on changing the Carbine to reflect its intended role? etc. etc. etc.
I believe the intention is to keep it vague, so our opinions of the specific changes are not biased. If they said "The BR will now fire 8% slower" everyone would come back with biased feedback like "You should make it only 4% slower". By keeping it vague, the raw data they get (as well as our forum post feedback) will remain based on how the game plays and how it feels, which is of course what matters in the end, NOT specific number or percentage changes.
I don't want to give a full big feedback only after the first day. I played 20 games, and kept track of little things that weren't subjective:

Accuracy: 50.9% with lowest 40.6, highest 61.3
Win: 66% this was the best it has been in a long time
5 out of 20 games players quit on either team

I know the accuracy doesn't mean too much since that could be with any weapon, but I had the BR as my tool of destruction in every game. I did however pick up other weapons when they presented themselves.

I am really enjoying this weapons test. If only for the fact that something different has come along. A lot of people keep saying why change the game now after two years, and I say why not? Especially if this points to them trying to improve the game with making weapons more about each to their role then I think that's a positive.

The main thing I am really enjoying with the BR is that it is no longer about who saw who first. If I out shoot someone, in a defensive posture, after they see me first, they back down. It gives me more of a fighting chance. I think a lot of the complaints are about players just not used to having to slow their shot down a little. I could be wrong. All I know is I am enjoying the game being slowed down a bit. It has become more about team shot.

The GF works great at close range. It can really stand up to the BR when used in right situations.

I am going to post later on the rest of it. I want to play things a little bit more.
You know, what would be cool is if you guys were more specific with what tunes you guys were doing similar to the patch notes in the Halo Wars 2 forum.
The Halo Wars 2 patch is different from the weapons test. This has been talked about many, many times already, but since it still seems to be getting missed here is something that ske7ch post in the thread already.

ske7ch wrote:
3. We've covered this a lot already but we're NOT going to be telling everyone exactly what's being changed/tested on each weapon. Play the game, see how it feels to you and let us know. (play more games if possible, I'm sure your POV will change as you get more acclimated) When this test concludes and the team has had a chance to analyze data and feedback then we will share specifics for the final tunings that will be released in the November update.
Sorry tried to fix my posts back to back...
DaxSeven09 wrote:
You know, what would be cool is if you guys were more specific with what tunes you guys were doing similar to the patch notes in the Halo Wars 2 forum.
The Halo Wars 2 patch is different from the weapons test. This has been talked about many, many times alread; but since it still seems to be getting missed here is something that ske7ch post in the thread already.

ske7ch wrote:
3. We've covered this a lot already but we're NOT going to be telling everyone exactly what's being changed/tested on each weapon. Play the game, see how it feels to you and let us know. (play more games if possible, I'm sure your POV will change as you get more acclimated) When this test concludes and the team has had a chance to analyze data and feedback then we will share specifics for the final tunings that will be released in the November update.
@sketch

Dumb.. but if they want to do it that way, for sure. Im just a guy that plays their game. And will like halo even if they ruin it with faulty feedback.

But I think what this means is that they are going to be looking at stats like "Heatmaps" with different weapons. Im sure actual player feedback will be taken into some or even a light consideration.

Thanks for updating me Dax
Honest question: Is the Halo 5 population alpha-testing gun mechanics for Halo 6? I can see how a ready population would be beneficial to employ in testing weapon tuning for the next game, and it's the only explanation I can think of for the large body of significant changes this late in Halo 5's life cycle.
Honest question: Is the Halo 5 population alpha-testing gun mechanics for Halo 6? I can see how a ready population would be beneficial to employ in testing weapon tuning for the next game, and it's the only explanation I can think of for the large body of significant changes this late in Halo 5's life cycle.
That seems to be the working theory. We probably won't know until Halo 6 comes out.
Leave the weapons as is... I don't recall anyone asking for the weapons to be "tuned"... especially two years into the release. If the BR tune goes through I'm done playing H5 multiplayer.
AMEN TO THAT BRO. Like if these are also test for Halo 6. Count me out. I'm sure others won't purchase h6 if these changes will be made in that game as well lol..
Leave the weapons as is... I don't recall anyone asking for the weapons to be "tuned"... especially two years into the release. If the BR tune goes through I'm done playing H5 multiplayer.
AMEN TO THAT BRO. Like if these are also test for Halo 6. Count me out. I'm sure others won't purchase h6 if these changes will be made in that game as well lol..
And the opposite could be true. Since I recall a lot of people asking for both the BR and AR to receive a change to them, and I guarantee players will buy Halo 6 if this is how they plan on universally keeping balance. One playlist isn't enough.

MKFREYA wrote:
Boltshot: is your best tuning, it's finally powerful but not so much, it's your best job in this weapon tuning
Sniper rifle: nothing bad, it's okay
There were no changes to the Boltshot or the Sniper Rifle.
So I played 3 games last night before bed. First thoughts were that I liked how hard it was. Duels actually happened, and movement apart from the thruster was actually important. I feel like before that the combo of aim assist and bullet magnetism made strafing very ineffective. Fights mostly came down to who shot first, but the first duel I got into in this though I got destroyed becasue the person I was playing against out strafed me. I love that A LOT. All the weapons that I got my hands on feel pretty good. I still feel like I need to get used to some of the re-balanced stuff, but overall I like it a lot.

Secondly, I think that the problems with Sprint and Thrust are multiplied here. Because the average kill time seems to be a lot slower it makes sprinting/thrusting away a lot more effective. I feel like in the three games that I played that I had more people run away from me than ever before. Combo those problems with the new radar, and it just feels weird. So many aspects of the game contradict each other. Sprinting is both rewarded and punished for example. It's weird and I don't like it.

Lastly, I really do think that it would play and feel 10x better if Sprint and Thrust were removed. It felt best when both me and the person I was fighting against weren't using either of those abilities. The best thing though is that even if they were both removed that it still feels really fast, but in a better way. I've always thought that high intensity duels, with two people out strafing each other was the best thing about Halo, and that was best in Halo 2. This playlist reminded me a lot of that, but it felt even faster. And if Sprint and Thrust were removed, the Radar could go back to normal. That would be the best thing IMO.

tl;dr - The weapon changes feel great. The problems with Spartan Abilities are amplified even more. Radar should go back to what it was before.
Really dislike the BR currently. Adding more spread increases randomness in gunfights, and the recoil also somewhat feels random and uncomfortable. Also the magnetism is still absurd and I get headshots that make me question myself.

I also haven't really notice a huge change in the AR/SMG, AR especially. It still shreds especially if you get the first couple of bullets on the enemy. Smart Scoping with the AR especially still has really good range.

Gunfighter Magnum is literally useless against any capable opponent. It only serves as a YY for my grenade throws.

There are some things I like. Railgun is interesting and I would like to see further tweaks to the timing of the rail shot, but it is a cool concept. Active Camo is also better, but I am still not a fan of your camo flickering whilst walking.

Overall, I don't see what these settings have improved over the current HCS settings (Magnum starts). If I were 343, I would be looking to make a change or even a buff to the Magnum instead of going for BR starts. I dislike Automatics coming back and still being decent DPS dealers. Also some of the weapons like Fuel Rod are still highly questionable, but I can understand that you guys want to test all the weapons out.

These are just my opinions, and I am sure that there will be lots of changes to come.

Edit: Also the Grenade Launcher is pretty sweet, but it really needs an EMP buff as that is the whole skill behind it. Currently the blind fire is a lot more effective at killing.
I still feel like the smg shreds. The grenade launcher will need to be a tier 3 weapon hands down. The br could have a LITTLER more rewarding performance up close. Other than that I like it.
Apoll0 wrote:
General thoughts. The Storm Rifle and Sniper are even more of a monster now. The GF Mag is useless at any kind of range the SR still outclasses every other close range weapon in a very easy to use package. Challenging a sniper at range is a dumber thing to do now than it was before. Getting a de-scope on a sniper so you can move has been a staple sniper counter-play in Halo forever and with the new BR and piss-easy sniper, that strategy is basically dead. Your spawn utility weapon needs to accomplish this at least at the limits of its range.

Here is my take on the BR:

Good:Toned down AA and bullet magnetism - Very happy with these changes. Gun was piss-easy before

Don't care:Recoil - A lot of complaining about this but the gun returns to center before you can fire again so the only compensation you need to make is to aim a little lower the farther out the target. The bigger issue with the recoil is how it screw with your line of sight.

Bad:Random spread - The spread is a fairly tight circle, tighter than H3, but its still random and -Yoinks!- you at longer ranges. wtf stop it. make it short and linear or get rid of it.
Fire rate - I can't tell if the base fire rate is slower or if its just the spacing between the 3 rounds of the burst (or both) but its definitely slow. I was an advocate for spacing out the 3 rounds a little more but keeping the total TTK the same, and this feels like total overkill.
Close Range - fighting up close with this weapon feels artificially difficult. Cant tell if its the aiming, the Aim Assist changes or a combination.
TLDR; The problem with the BR was that it would aim for you and bend bullets around corners. Those issues have been resolved, but then a bunch of other unnecessary -Yoink- was done on top of that. KISS.

SMG: I like the changes to this actually. It melts close range, but simply thrusting backwards takes you out of that range to get a kill with a more skillful weapon.
AR: This still feels like it can destroy too easily. a slow tap-fire (release every 4 or 5 bullets) keeps the spread under control and still extends the range significantly.
DMR: AA and Magnetism toned down so this sits in a good place now imo. My only complaint is that like the BR, this feels artificially difficult to aim with up close.
GF Mag: Still undecided. Can't tell if i'm not used to the fire rate or if getting headshots is (again) artificially difficult.

Hitboxes general: Either the hitboxes have been made tighter, or this is a consequence of the bullet magnetism reduction, but you actually have to aim for the head to get a headshot now, which is a welcome change!!! (except for the sniper of course)

I have not had enough reps with the other weapons to provide any kind of educated opinion.
My general sentiment is positive. The AA and magnetism reductions across the board are welcome but... if those don't get extended to at least the sniper, it will become even more of a monster than it already is. ALL close-range battles just feel awkward. Hard to pin down why.

Phase 3 of this needs to re-tweak the BR, and try default magnum and AR starts.

EDIT: One thing i do not understand.... why does it seem like the BR is the new weapon that everything else is getting balanced around?? The original magnum was probably the most well-conceived weapon in the game. Why are we not testing a slight tweaked version of that with all the other items being pick ups?

Hopefully the BR is the starting weapon because it is the most drastically changed weapon and you want to get as many reps as possible on it, not because its actually going to become the default start weapon.
This post is quite excellent and well written.

I think the mag on the BR is still a bit insane at times but a lot better than before that is for sure. I just wish it was the Magnum getting changes then the rest of the game being balanced around it, much like you said.
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