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[Locked] Weapon Tuning Update - Early Discussion Thread

OP ske7ch

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UPDATE: Phase One of the Weapon Tuning Test is officially underway! Check out the Team Arena playlist from 9/6 through 9/10 to test new loadouts and help us get baseline data before the newly tuned weapons are introduced on 9/11. The new Phase One feedback thread can be found HERE.

UPDATE: The Halo 5 update was released on 9/5 which added the newly tuned weapons that will be used for the upcoming tuning test. The Team Arena playlist has not been updated yet ("Phase One")- the team is working on getting that setup ASAP. Stay tuned!

Read all about the upcoming test, what's changing and how you can participate in the Halo 5 Weapon Tuning Update blog.

Once the first phase kicks off later this week we'll open a new thread for discussion and feedback. Until then, sound off below!

    Weapon Tuning Test Mini FAQ
    Why even do a weapon tuning update to Halo 5?
    The Sandbox Team has two main goals driving this work:
    • Revitalize and re-balance the Halo 5 sandbox to a more desirable state
    • Establish/strengthen unique roles for each weapon and reduce role redundancy
    What is being included in the Halo 5 weapon tuning update?
    The tuning update will encompass approx. 12 items in the Halo 5 sandbox. In the days and weeks ahead we'll be digging more into which weapons are being adjusted and share some high level context behind the changes. Note that we will not be sharing super specific details about exactly how the weapons are being re-tuned - this is intentional to help ensure that our game data and player feedback isn't skewed or biased. You'll get a chance to test and experience these adjustments first-hand before they're finalized.

    Is this only for matchmaking or multiplayer?
    No - The final outcome of this test will result in tuning adjustments applying to weapons across the entire game (MP, Campaign, & WZ).

    When will this tuning test take place?
    The tuning test will kick off the week of Sept. 4 with an update to Team Arena - this update will add in many of the base weapons that will be part of the public testing later this month. We'd like everyone to play on the Team Arena playlist for "Phase One" to help establish a baseline for both game data and your own familiarity so you have some context once the weapons are updated. Currently the plan is to change Team Arena to "Weapon Tuning Test" playlist with the newly tuned weapons on Sept. 11.

    Why isn't X, Y, or Z being included in the tuning update?
    The Sandbox Team has a core set of weapons that are being targeted with this tuning update but we're always reviewing feedback and game data to monitor the state of the entire game sandbox and evaluate opportunities for potential future updates.

    Are classic Halo 5 weapons being completely changed?
    No. For the most part, the tuning changes are pretty nuanced and minor refinements.

    Will these tuning changes end up impacting the HCS season or upcoming HCS London or Dreamhack Denver events?
    No, teams are working very closely to ensure that the competitive landscape isn't disrupted during an active season or lead up to an event. All competitors will continue to play on the same settings that were used for the duration of the Summer 2017 season.

    Please use this thread to discuss your thoughts and share feedback about the upcoming tuning test. We'll do our best to answer questions and keep everyone in the loop as things progress. And please, keep the discussion civil and constructive!
    ske7ch wrote:
    What is being included in the Halo 5 weapon tuning update? The tuning update will encompass approx. fifteen items in the Halo 5 sandbox. In the days and weeks ahead we'll be digging more into which weapons are being adjusted and share some high level context behind the changes. Note that we will not be sharing super specific details about exactly how the weapons are being re-tuned - this is intentional to help ensure that our game data and player feedback isn't skewed or biased. You'll get a chance to test and experience these adjustments first-hand before they're finalized.
    So will we get any details as to changes? Or are we going to receive some sort of Proving Grounds-type playlist that will be the FPS equivalent of road trip spot-the-difference puzzles? I am of the opinion that full disclosure of changes to the weapons would be better than leaving it up to players to guess those differences and possibly draw wrong conclusions.
    Looking forward to seeing what's going to be tweaked. This little bit gave me a laugh though, the word filter strikes again hahaha
    ske7ch wrote:
    The Sandbox Team has a core set of weapons that are being targeted with this tuning update but we're always reviewing feedback and game data to -Yoinks!- the state of the entire game sandbox and evaluate opportunities for potential future updates.
    Man I'm super excited for this. I expect that you're gonna nerf my precious Storm Rifle though. </3
    stckrboy wrote:
    Looking forward to seeing what's going to be tweaked. This little bit gave me a laugh though, the word filter strikes again hahaha
    ske7ch wrote:
    The Sandbox Team has a core set of weapons that are being targeted with this tuning update but we're always reviewing feedback and game data to -Yoinks!- the state of the entire game sandbox and evaluate opportunities for potential future updates.
    Ha. Changed to a better word.
    Ssssoaring wrote:
    ske7ch wrote:
    What is being included in the Halo 5 weapon tuning update? The tuning update will encompass approx. fifteen items in the Halo 5 sandbox. In the days and weeks ahead we'll be digging more into which weapons are being adjusted and share some high level context behind the changes. Note that we will not be sharing super specific details about exactly how the weapons are being re-tuned - this is intentional to help ensure that our game data and player feedback isn't skewed or biased. You'll get a chance to test and experience these adjustments first-hand before they're finalized.
    So will we get any details as to changes? Or are we going to receive some sort of Proving Grounds-type playlist that will be the FPS equivalent of road trip spot-the-difference puzzles? I am of the opinion that full disclosure of changes to the weapons would be better than leaving it up to players to guess those differences and possibly draw wrong conclusions.
    When the test is concluded we will definitely go into very specific details about the results including exactly what's changing and how the final results were determined.

    Currently we are looking at a plan that will entail a special "walled off" playlist similar to the Proving Grounds that will serve as the test bed.

    We have game data and metrics that will be used to assess the changes and compare them to the 'control' version of the weapons. Each tuning adjustment has some specific underlying goas and then they've identified specific metrics/game data to refute or validate those changes. We don't want to specify that "X weapon has changed by Y% in Z way" because communicating that up front doesn't impact how the weapons are used/actually played - we want untainted data and we don't want to introduce player bias into the results. Play as you normally will, see how things feel, we will gather a ton of data and then also offer an official forum for gathering anecdotal feedback.

    So yes, I suppose you could call it a "road trip to spot the difference puzzle" but we aren't asking players to spot the difference - we're asking players to play as they normally would to give us pure data and then share some thoughts around if anything felt better/worse/etc... Hope that makes some sense - it's a bit different approach and the Sandbox Team and our 'business intelligence' teams are being very scientific about this as it's not something anyone takes lightly. We'll see how it goes - either way it'll be a great learning experience for the future for the Halo team and the community itself.
    ske7ch wrote:
    Ssssoaring wrote:
    ske7ch wrote:
    What is being included in the Halo 5 weapon tuning update? The tuning update will encompass approx. fifteen items in the Halo 5 sandbox. In the days and weeks ahead we'll be digging more into which weapons are being adjusted and share some high level context behind the changes. Note that we will not be sharing super specific details about exactly how the weapons are being re-tuned - this is intentional to help ensure that our game data and player feedback isn't skewed or biased. You'll get a chance to test and experience these adjustments first-hand before they're finalized.
    So will we get any details as to changes? Or are we going to receive some sort of Proving Grounds-type playlist that will be the FPS equivalent of road trip spot-the-difference puzzles? I am of the opinion that full disclosure of changes to the weapons would be better than leaving it up to players to guess those differences and possibly draw wrong conclusions.
    When the test is concluded we will definitely go into very specific details about the results including exactly what's changing and how the final results were determined.

    Currently we are looking at a plan that will entail a special "walled off" playlist similar to the Proving Grounds that will serve as the test bed.

    We have game data and metrics that will be used to assess the changes and compare them to the 'control' version of the weapons. Each tuning adjustment has some specific underlying goas and then they've identified specific metrics/game data to refute or validate those changes. We don't want to specify that "X weapon has changed by Y% in Z way" because communicating that up front doesn't impact how the weapons are used/actually played - we want untainted data and we don't want to introduce player bias into the results. Play as you normally will, see how things feel, we will gather a ton of data and then also offer an official forum for gathering anecdotal feedback.

    So yes, I suppose you could call it a "road trip to spot the difference puzzle" but we aren't asking players to spot the difference - we're asking players to play as they normally would to give us pure data and then share some thoughts around if anything felt better/worse/etc... Hope that makes some sense - it's a bit different approach and the Sandbox Team and our 'business intelligence' teams are being very scientific about this as it's not something anyone takes lightly. We'll see how it goes - either way it'll be a great learning experience for the future for the Halo team and the community itself.
    That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the detailed response.
    So that means that there will be a coming update for H5 sandbox? Like new guns/emblems/armors etc...
    "Active Camo is the lone power up included in this update" Well nuts. Because Damage Boost has been the least desirable thing to pull in during Warzone. as hoping they'd be knocked down a level each / Camo pushed up a level.
    egan3k wrote:
    So that means that there will be a coming update for H5 sandbox? Like new guns/emblems/armors etc...
    No, this is purely tuning existing weapons in the sandbox. The fall update will encompass these changes, the 4K update for the X1X and some other bug fixes.
    I urge you, if it's at all possible with the way Halo 5 works, to keep the sword changes out of Campaign. If you nerf its speed capabilities, you will ruin speedrunning for current patch players (The sword is the most important weapon in the speedrun, and I mention current patch because legendary runners already have to use the disc because of the changes to hunter stun mechanics and a few other things). This will also make the effort your team put into the In Game Timer irrelevant, as we will have to switch to a patch that doesn't have it. Since quite a few of us own digital copies of Halo 5, this will be impossible without buying the game again for the disc.

    Please reconsider or at least keep the changes out of campaign (I'm hoping there's a different setting you can do for campaign, like how your shields recharge while sprinting).

    -Batchat
    We need to be able to go fast in speedrunning so at least dont change it in the campaign.
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    Same issue as Batchat. General weapon changes over time are understandable, but nerfing the Sword speed in anyway for Campaign drastically impacts any Speedrunning that can be done in the up-to-date game (rather than using the disc offline). We already deal with the sandbox changes that have happened since release (both good and bad), but this change could potentially ruin all Speedrunning that can be done on patched.

    If it were possible for us to select which global sandbox version to apply when starting the campaign (even if it was just a hidden secret setting), this would be a non-issue. We do know for sure that this is at least technically possible for you to do, as game-saves created on older versions still retain all of the sandbox+quirks from the version they were created with, even when playing on fully patched. But, I also understand that adding such a setting for us would be asking for a lot.

    So I figured I'd comment here along with the others, just to make sure you have some feedback on this predicament.

    Thanks,

    Nibre
    ok, so we've got some people pointing out that adjusting the weapons based on feedback for PvP multiplayer could have unintended consequences for campaign speedrunners. But are you going to take into account any unintended consequences for PvE (i.e. Warzone Firefight)? Or is this update only going to done with PvP in mind? Let me re-post what I said in another thread:
    Quote:
    Whatever they do, I hope they keep Warzone Firefight in mind. The fact that power weapons are virtually useless in that mode is due to the fact that weapons and vehicles, and their respective req energy requirements, are balanced for PvP Warzone. However, Warzone Firefight seems to be one of the most popular modes, and is the only thing I play in Halo 5 anymore. It would be nice to see them address this issue of power weapons being relatively useless, or at least kept in mind.

    They're saying they want "unique roles" for each weapon, but in Warzone Firefight, there is basically no role for any weapon, because vehicles outperform them at every req level, to a ridiculous degree. And if they don't address this issue, then I would at least appreciate an easier way for me to trade my power weapons for vehicles...
    As for unintended consequences, imagine this scenario: the assault rifle gets nerfed in some way, due to balancing reasons for PvP. Players therefore have a more difficult time gaining points in round 1 of Warzone Firefight. With less people able to reach req level 3 by the time round 2 starts, they will have a more difficult time with later rounds, and so on. In other words, nerfing the loadout weapons needed for round 1, when everyone is at req level 1, could potentially start a snowball effect that changes the rest of the match.

    So I'd really like to know if the team is only focusing on PvP, or if they will keep PvE in mind as well (and campaign, as others have pointed out). I'm looking forward to getting more details on this.
    Okay, camouflage could use some help, but the sword makes melee a viable option. If anything, the grav hammer needs a boost of some kind, but I guess I understand where their concern lies.
    However, the beam rifle becoming any weaker is just silly. It's already ignored unless it's the only power weapon on the map. Give it something that makes it more specialized - like making it better at unscoped shots vs the sniper - but don't make it just a different-colored sniper rifle. They're different for a reason.
    ok, so we've got some people pointing out that adjusting the weapons based on feedback for PvP multiplayer could have unintended consequences for campaign speedrunners. But are you going to take into account any unintended consequences for PvE (i.e. Warzone Firefight)? Or is this update only going to done with PvP in mind? Let me re-post what I said in another thread:
    Quote:
    Whatever they do, I hope they keep Warzone Firefight in mind. The fact that power weapons are virtually useless in that mode is due to the fact that weapons and vehicles, and their respective req energy requirements, are balanced for PvP Warzone. However, Warzone Firefight seems to be one of the most popular modes, and is the only thing I play in Halo 5 anymore. It would be nice to see them address this issue of power weapons being relatively useless, or at least kept in mind.

    They're saying they want "unique roles" for each weapon, but in Warzone Firefight, there is basically no role for any weapon, because vehicles outperform them at every req level, to a ridiculous degree. And if they don't address this issue, then I would at least appreciate an easier way for me to trade my power weapons for vehicles...
    As for unintended consequences, imagine this scenario: the assault rifle gets nerfed in some way, due to balancing reasons for PvP. Players therefore have a more difficult time gaining points in round 1 of Warzone Firefight. With less people able to reach req level 3 by the time round 2 starts, they will have a more difficult time with later rounds, and so on. In other words, nerfing the loadout weapons needed for round 1, when everyone is at req level 1, could potentially start a snowball effect that changes the rest of the match.

    So I'd really like to know if the team is only focusing on PvP, or if they will keep PvE in mind as well (and campaign, as others have pointed out). I'm looking forward to getting more details on this.
    Why wouldn't you use your magnum in firefight ? A lot of the early enemies die to a single headshot like crawlers, jackals and grunts
    Why wouldn't you use your magnum in firefight ? A lot of the early enemies die to a single headshot like crawlers, jackals and grunts
    Indeed, I love using my Magnum in round 1 of firefight. So for the sake of my argument, suppose the Magnum gets nerfed. My point remains the same. All I'm trying to say is that I hope they keep PvE in mind when they adjust the sandbox for PvP.
    I hope it's not gonna mainly just be Warzone weapons. I think the autos and magnum in Arena could use some slight tweaking.

    Also, please consider looking at vehicles sooner rather than later.
    If they don't bring anything new to the game, I really don't care a lot. When I read about a Fall Update I instantly jumped at the idea of new weapons and vehicles being added, but if it's just gonna be to tune the currently existing sandbox that's kind of a bummer. I'm not getting the XOneX so idc about the 4K. I'm not competitive at all, I'm casual and happy with the way the weapons work now I'll probably not even notice the tweaks. I wanted to see new stuff added that really refreshes the game and makes me want to play, cause now it's just boring to me. So unless you people give me a nice surprise (still hoping for a Brute Shot) I don't really care. I'll be happy for the bug fixes but that's about it.
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