Forums / Games / Halo 5: Guardians

Why do people drop the flag every game?

OP Geth Pathfinder

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I agree. It’s very annoying. Like why are they telling the entire enemy team where they are just to go a tiny bit faster? I’ll never understand....
What’s the point of being slightly faster when everyone knows where you are. I always grab the flag and try to sneek back.

I think what your all may not be understanding is exactly how much faster juggling is than stealth walking. It's not "slightly faster," it is significantly faster than stealth capping.

Please note that when you're caring the flag, you actually have a decrease in movement speed. That fact, coupled with the fact that juggling let's you move at sprint speed, causes the flag juggler to move twice as fast as the stealth cap player.

With other players being able to move so fast while they hunt you down, the movement speed increase is more than worth the other team knowing what direction you're moving.

I think you'll find that stealth capping may net you more personal flag capture, but juggling will net your TEAM more captures, as the flag will almost always be closer to your base if you die, allowing an easier time for team mates to finish a capture.

So I guess it can depend on if you want personal capture glory, or if you want to give your team the best chance to win.
“So I guess it can depend on if you want personal capture glory, or if you want to give your team the best chance to win.”
Don’t try to spin this where people who don’t flag drop are selfish while people who do just want the best for the team. I’d actually argue it’s more the opposite, but unless we have access to the minds of each and every player, let’s not generalize.

The only way someone can go double the normal flag speed is when they’ve practiced it a bunch and have mastered it. The vast majority of players including myself haven’t and just move at base speed whenever they drop it. They reveal their whereabouts to the enemy team just to go a tiny bit faster. I’ve lost countless games because of this and it’s infuriating.
I agree. It’s very annoying. Like why are they telling the entire enemy team where they are just to go a tiny bit faster? I’ll never understand....
What’s the point of being slightly faster when everyone knows where you are. I always grab the flag and try to sneek back.

I think what your all may not be understanding is exactly how much faster juggling is than stealth walking. It's not "slightly faster," it is significantly faster than stealth capping.

Please note that when you're caring the flag, you actually have a decrease in movement speed. That fact, coupled with the fact that juggling let's you move at sprint speed, causes the flag juggler to move twice as fast as the stealth cap player.

With other players being able to move so fast while they hunt you down, the movement speed increase is more than worth the other team knowing what direction you're moving.

I think you'll find that stealth capping may net you more personal flag capture, but juggling will net your TEAM more captures, as the flag will almost always be closer to your base if you die, allowing an easier time for team mates to finish a capture.

So I guess it can depend on if you want personal capture glory, or if you want to give your team the best chance to win.
“So I guess it can depend on if you want personal capture glory, or if you want to give your team the best chance to win.”
Don’t try to spin this where people who don’t flag drop are selfish while people who do just want the best for the team. I’d actually argue it’s more the opposite, but unless we have access to the minds of each and every player, let’s not generalize.

The only way someone can go double the normal flag speed is when they’ve practiced it a bunch and have mastered it. The vast majority of players including myself haven’t and just move at base speed whenever they drop it. They reveal their whereabouts to the enemy team just to go a tiny bit faster. I’ve lost countless games because of this and it’s infuriating.
I guess it's personal opinion then. My opinion is that not flag juggling is worse for the team, because it results in less captures for your team.

Yesterday I was playing a CTF game on echoes. In overtime, I grabbed the enemy flag at the same time the opposing team had our flag. I juggled it to banshee spawn before the enemy carrier had gotten halfway past or teams carbine rock. Our teams reinforcements spawned in and quickly killed the enemy carrier. The enemy teams reinforcements spawned in, and I took one br round to the back before I was too far out of range and over the middle incline of the map.

I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but learning to flag juggle effectively can be done in about 3 flag grab attempts. Go watch one video where some one does it and you'll find it pretty easy to figure out the button press order.

X-Y-B-X-A-Y-B rinse and repeat. Once you concentrate on learning it, you'll figure it out in about 15 minutes total, and you'll never ever go back.

I will once again pose the question, not meaning it vindictively. If the top 20 players in the world all use this technique over the alternative, what makes you think the alternative may be better? That would be similar to arguing with Brady, Manning, and Rogers about whether or not you have better techniques than them when it comes to being a QB. Why would anyone ever do that?
I agree. It’s very annoying. Like why are they telling the entire enemy team where they are just to go a tiny bit faster? I’ll never understand....
What’s the point of being slightly faster when everyone knows where you are. I always grab the flag and try to sneek back.

I guess it's personal opinion then. My opinion is that not flag juggling is worse for the team, because it results in less captures for your team.

Yesterday I was playing a CTF game on echoes. In overtime, I grabbed the enemy flag at the same time the opposing team had our flag. I juggled it to banshee spawn before the enemy carrier had gotten halfway past or teams carbine rock. Our teams reinforcements spawned in and quickly killed the enemy carrier. The enemy teams reinforcements spawned in, and I took one br round to the back before I was too far out of range and over the middle incline of the map.

I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but learning to flag juggle effectively can be done in about 3 flag grab attempts. Go watch one video where some one does it and you'll find it pretty easy to figure out the button press order.

X-Y-B-X-A-Y-B rinse and repeat. Once you concentrate on learning it, you'll figure it out in about 15 minutes total, and you'll never ever go back.

I will once again pose the question, not meaning it vindictively. If the top 20 players in the world all use this technique over the alternative, what makes you think the alternative may be better? That would be similar to arguing with Brady, Manning, and Rogers about whether or not you have better techniques than them when it comes to being a QB. Why would anyone ever do that?
Well it’s fine if you believe flag juggling is better. As I believe flag juggling is worse. We all have our preferences but flag juggling shouldn’t be done 100% just as stealth capturing shouldn’t be done 100% of the time. It should depend on the situation.

As for your argument: the top 20 players in the world flag juggle. There are multiple problems with this. To begin, the top players are playing against other top players. This leads to teams that know every location and where to run/defend. Maybe stealth captures don’t work for Onyx, Diamond players but I’m on the Gold, Platnum level. I play casually, usually without a mic. I’m not constantly communicating and using advanced strategies. I’m not a pro, just relaxing and having some fun. I don’t have teammates backing by me up all the time. In fact, the reason I usually stealth capture is because I have very bad teammates that don’t care about the objective.

The question is: why SHOULDN’T you stealth capture if competing against a clueless team that has no idea where you went? It all comes down to if the other team knows the map and is familiar with the flag routes(personally, I’m not good about memorizing routes, spawns, etc). I usually try to take a slower route that the enemy team will not expect.
I'd say once you got to about a major / commander in halo 3 people knew where you would go with the flag, maybe the top 25 / 20% of players know exactly the options you could take it, if you aren't going the path of least resistance and doing it fast you're at a disadvantage, the top 10/5% can nade the places you would hide / stall and lose you the flag.

For regulars stealth could be an option, but all it takes is one good player who knows to run to your flag cap point and flank your team to stop a stealth cap.
Even then though, if you pull a flag past halfway against randoms and they aren't in your base, if you juggle you will have the cap.

Remember geth you did open this with why do they drop the flag every game not why shouldn't i stealth capture, no need to be defensive.

The people are simply saying that if you do it correct juggling is always the more effective option, even against average joes, there is a time for stealth, but if the other team is all dead or you have twice the number alive then a juggle will give a much higher chance than a stealth cap.

To hark back to competitive players the one time stealth cap is used is when you pull the flag out to stop a run and create a standoff, at that point it becomes a battle to return the other flag so the stealth player can cap. Basically unless you are in a standoff stealth doesn't work...why? because the top half of players run to the flag point to stop the point going through by killing or stealing the flag.

When playing against average players unless you have a player good at killing then getting the flag from point a to point b the fastest is the best for scoring the point, scrappy flag caps are a dice roll and all depends on how inefficient a player is.
Stealth captures are the occasional trick you pull in a field of competition using juggling. Say your team has a habit of taking a particular juggle route, throwing in the occasional stealth capture on a wildly different route can be very beneficial. However it is not viable as a primary flag carry method as there are limited routes meaning without an expected trend to throw the enemy off, you'll be found quickly by positioning or the process of elimination. Hilariously enough sometimes (Emphasis on sometimes) stealth capping by making a beeline clean through the center works extremely well when every other flag carry has been a juggle to one side.
Remember geth you did open this with why do they drop the flag every game not why shouldn't i stealth capture, no need to be defensive.

The people are simply saying that if you do it correct juggling is always the more effective option, even against average joes, there is a time for stealth, but if the other team is all dead or you have twice the number alive then a juggle will give a much higher chance than a stealth cap.

Well the arguments are both related. If people are flag juggling every game then they aren’t stealth capping. So to tell me that flag juggling is better is telling me that I shouldn’t stealth cap.

Maybe flag juggling is better if done correctly but I don’t know how to do it efficiently. I notice a slight increase in speed offset by occasional fumbles with the flag where I have to go back. Stealth capping makes more sense to me: enemies don’t know where I am and no worrying about fumbling or lag interrupting my movement. I will ask the question again: why SHOULD I flag juggle?
Remember geth you did open this with why do they drop the flag every game not why shouldn't i stealth capture, no need to be defensive.

The people are simply saying that if you do it correct juggling is always the more effective option, even against average joes, there is a time for stealth, but if the other team is all dead or you have twice the number alive then a juggle will give a much higher chance than a stealth cap.

Well the arguments are both related. If people are flag juggling every game then they aren’t stealth capping. So to tell me that flag juggling is better is telling me that I shouldn’t stealth cap.

Maybe flag juggling is better if done correctly but I don’t know how to do it efficiently. I notice a slight increase in speed offset by occasional fumbles with the flag where I have to go back. Stealth capping makes more sense to me: enemies don’t know where I am and no worrying about fumbling or lag interrupting my movement. I will ask the question again: why SHOULD I flag juggle?
Because it's more effective than stealth capping, on average, as I, and others, have previously stated. The best players do it for a reason, and you'll notice that they do it every single time. I will repeat that one more time. The best players in the world use this strategy 100% of the times they capture the flag.

I don't find "I don't do it because it's hard" to be an effective counter argument. That is not a reason to stealth cap over juggling when juggling is more effective. You can learn to flag juggle by watching a single two minute video, and then practicing it over the close of 2-5 CTF games.

I also think this argument discourages other players from learning a skill which will improve their performance in the game, and allow them to compete against tougher competition.

I am happy to continue debating this in a respectful way, as we have been, but not juggling because you're not good at it isn't a reason to only stealth capture. Learn to do both, and then you'll be able to use whichever technique is best for the situations you come across.
At first I found it annoying too... But then watched a few of these pro tournaments and saw why. Flag juggling is a thing.
I will ask the question again: why SHOULD I flag juggle?
I think both methods have their merits and it's really up to your team what works best for you. In the HCS games I've watched over the years they use both methods.

Stealth capping can be effective if your team are providing enough support to keep the other team away from your line of sight, allowing you a run to the other side.

Juggling is generally when you have at least 3 down on the opposing team and you can make a dash back to base. A combination of sprinting, dashing and throwing can be really effective in pulling a quick cap before the other team can spawn and attempt to block.
holy canole some of these posts....

You don't juggle when you are down players or they are not setup and you are trying to buy time for your team. Even then, as soon as your team is in position or you go up in numbers, juggle the flag. its not a little bit faster... if you know what you are doing its A LOT faster.

If you're team already has control or numbers, juggle straight away. 80% of the time, juggling is the right answer. I lose way more often because someone refuses to juggle and can't get across the map fast enough than because someone does and gets spotted.
But I really was serious and to this day don’t understand how it improves speed to drop the flag two feet and fumble around to pick it back up.
You aren't doing it right if you're only going two feet. Here is a video which explains everything and even has a comparison of how much faster it is to flag juggle versus stealth.

Link.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
But I really was serious and to this day don’t understand how it improves speed to drop the flag two feet and fumble around to pick it back up.
You aren't doing it right if you're only going two feet. Here is a video which explains everything and even has a comparison of how much faster it is to flag juggle versus stealth.

Link.
Especially in halo 5 with boost slide and sprint it’s unreal
Well it’s fine if you believe flag juggling is better. As I believe flag juggling is worse. We all have our preferences but flag juggling shouldn’t be done 100% just as stealth capturing shouldn’t be done 100% of the time. It should depend on the situation.

As for your argument: the top 20 players in the world flag juggle. There are multiple problems with this. To begin, the top players are playing against other top players. This leads to teams that know every location and where to run/defend. Maybe stealth captures don’t work for Onyx, Diamond players but I’m on the Gold, Platnum level. I play casually, usually without a mic. I’m not constantly communicating and using advanced strategies. I’m not a pro, just relaxing and having some fun. I don’t have teammates backing by me up all the time. In fact, the reason I usually stealth capture is because I have very bad teammates that don’t care about the objective.

The question is: why SHOULDN’T you stealth capture if competing against a clueless team that has no idea where you went? It all comes down to if the other team knows the map and is familiar with the flag routes(personally, I’m not good about memorizing routes, spawns, etc). I usually try to take a slower route that the enemy team will not expect.
I mean, you can believe it's worse all you want, but in a game where flag routes are easy to predict, and you can thrust slide across the map in 0.6 seconds, there's literally no reason to slow yourself down for the cap at any high level of play. The only time I've seen people stealth around/I HAVE stealthed around is when the flag is gone and we're in a stalemate, because enemy collapses can come in easily against a fractured team who's trying to simultaneously defend and make pushes. It's better to hide and bide your time over fighting, but that's a different context.

Just because you are more casual, and your teammates by proxy of your/their rank are lower in skill doesn't make the strat of flag juggling inferior. It just makes stealth capping situationally better against clueless players. That doesn't make it the definitive strategy. If you're against a clueless team in the first place, you can LITERALLY run a flag bottom mid on Truth out of their base and they'll have no idea what to do. You could literally run it top mid, too, despite how easy it is to tear people down there.

The question isn't that, the question is, why are you nerfing yourself against self-proclaimed "clueless teams" rather than taking an advantage in speed at the cost of location giving. Something that on its own, isn't a gigantic upper hand anyway. If you have a flag stalemate on Fathom, you know people are gonna be hiding gen, if you're on Truth, they're gonna be hiding attic or basement, if it's Coli, they'll be around window, or the back of their base. Because it's close enough to the flag base without being exposed. That lack of knowledge and poor habit development isn't worth slowing yourself down for. Especially at lower levels, where you should be learning to grow, even if you play casually. I'm not asking you to sweat your nuts off, I'm just saying, rather than trying to validate a poor habit against poor players, use better habits against poor players and you may get somewhere. Or, if you're just relaxing, don't exactly try to validate a poor habit, or insult others (even mentally) for utilizing what is an objectively better strategy for flag runs.

Finally, if you played Halo 4 first, obviously you won't find flag juggling to be an effective strat when you couldn't even drop the flag and were forced to run it slowly. That was a gigantic complaint about Halo 4 for a reason.
People do it because it's faster. But like all things in life there is a right way to do it.
If you have all of your teammates covering you (which is the way it's supposed to be) then there's no problem giving away your position because your team's got you. If you play with randoms there is no co-ordination therefore is a lot more useless and inconvenient.
I know about MLG flag running. I just don’t get why people give away their position by dropping the flag every CTF match . Do they not now how Halo 5 CTF works? I have lost matches before because the other team used stealth and one of my teammates grabbed the flag and drops it over and over. I’m like “everyone can see you now, you idiot”. (I don’t actually yell at them, I’m just very irritated)

In case somebody doesn’t know, in Halo 5 when you grab the flag, the other team doesn’t know where it is unless you are spotted. I started online with Halo 4(where you couldn’t drop it), so I never got the advantage to dropping the flag over and over. I do know in theory why people do it to boost speed. My question is why do people do this every time in Halo 5. What’s the point of being slightly faster when everyone knows where you are. I always grab the flag and try to sneek back.

Sorry for for the rant, I’m just sick of people making my team lose by using Halo 3 tactics in Halo 5. The speed increase usually isn’t worth the cost of giving your position away. I never found dropping the flag to be that effective even in other Halos, IMO. Maybe it’s because I started with 4.
I always get "Rare" stealth captures but wondered what this was. You can still shoot even if spotted.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
But I really was serious and to this day don’t understand how it improves speed to drop the flag two feet and fumble around to pick it back up.
You aren't doing it right if you're only going two feet. Here is a video which explains everything and even has a comparison of how much faster it is to flag juggle versus stealth.

Link.
And that's H3. H5 has an even bigger gap.
I agree. It’s very annoying. Like why are they telling the entire enemy team where they are just to go a tiny bit faster? I’ll never understand....
If you’re very experienced with the thrust sliding technique of flag juggling, you can cross the map with a flag in half the time it takes to walk it
Remember geth you did open this with why do they drop the flag every game not why shouldn't i stealth capture, no need to be defensive.

The people are simply saying that if you do it correct juggling is always the more effective option, even against average joes, there is a time for stealth, but if the other team is all dead or you have twice the number alive then a juggle will give a much higher chance than a stealth cap.

Well the arguments are both related. If people are flag juggling every game then they aren’t stealth capping. So to tell me that flag juggling is better is telling me that I shouldn’t stealth cap.

Maybe flag juggling is better if done correctly but I don’t know how to do it efficiently. I notice a slight increase in speed offset by occasional fumbles with the flag where I have to go back. Stealth capping makes more sense to me: enemies don’t know where I am and no worrying about fumbling or lag interrupting my movement. I will ask the question again: why SHOULD I flag juggle?
Because it's more effective than stealth capping, on average, as I, and others, have previously stated. The best players do it for a reason, and you'll notice that they do it every single time. I will repeat that one more time. The best players in the world use this strategy 100% of the times they capture the flag.

I don't find "I don't do it because it's hard" to be an effective counter argument. That is not a reason to stealth cap over juggling when juggling is more effective. You can learn to flag juggle by watching a single two minute video, and then practicing it over the close of 2-5 CTF games.

I also think this argument discourages other players from learning a skill which will improve their performance in the game, and allow them to compete against tougher competition.

I am happy to continue debating this in a respectful way, as we have been, but not juggling because you're not good at it isn't a reason to only stealth capture. Learn to do both, and then you'll be able to use whichever technique is best for the situations you come across.
“Learn to do both, and then you'll be able to use whichever technique is best for the situations you come across.”
I 100% agree with this. What I have been trying to ask is why people always flag juggle not saying that flag juggling is always bad.

I disagree with you on the argument : “The best players in the world use this strategy 100% of the times they capture the flag.” Yes they do, but as I already said they are pros playing pros. Most maps have at least 3 flag routes and 4 players. That gives me a fairly good chance to stealth capture. How is an average player going to have any idea which route I took?

”I don't do it because it's hard" This is not really what I said. If you want to go here for the sake of argument: do you disagree with someone who is bad at Sniper, so leaves the SR for someone else? I’m just saying not everyone can be good at everything.
Remember geth you did open this with why do they drop the flag every game not why shouldn't i stealth capture, no need to be defensive.

The people are simply saying that if you do it correct juggling is always the more effective option, even against average joes, there is a time for stealth, but if the other team is all dead or you have twice the number alive then a juggle will give a much higher chance than a stealth cap.

why SHOULD I flag juggle?
i already answered that, but before i answer that again i'll re-iterate again
"why should i flag juggle" wasn't the point of the thread you made..the point was "why are people still using halo 3 tactics in halo 5, the speed increase isn't worth it, why does everyone do it"

so i'll make it easy and do a simple list
1. unless you are going for a flag standoff it is always the better option
2. halo 5's is the hardest to learn due to the movement mechanics, in every other game you just jump, look up, throw the flag to get the most distance and repeat, even then halo 5's should take half an hour at most in a custom game to nail.
3. in the circumstance that every enemy is dead and you pulled the flag, a juggle will guarantee a cap, stealth is just giving the enemy an opportunity to stop it
4. just because other people are bad at doing it doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted, it's far and away the better strategy when done right
5. halos maps are rather small, and has tonnes of movement abilities, it's easy to find a stealth player
6. if you cant find a stealth player just pull the enemy flag, stops the cap immediately

i wish i could give a proper analogy but i can't
it's like asking why don't people don't use automatics much at higher levels of play
because there's better options and has limited use
except in h5 the automatics are much more powerful because of the movement mechanics (and the buffs), while stealth capping is even harder due to how fast players can move across the map.
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