Forums / Games / Classic Halo Games

Is BXR cheating?

OP Dapper shrooms

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tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
To me, yes, it is. I don't think it was supposed to be there in the first place. It could be because of the rushed development, as I don't believe Bungie would do that if they hadn't tried to create a new engine.

If your friends can do it, then DEW IT. It makes the games more tense and competitive. If not, try not to.
Personally, don't.
Just out of curiosity, do you play any fighting games?
No, but I have played. But why bring that up?
Do you consider any advanced mechanics or simple combos and links in those games to be cheating?
Risk? I see no risk at all. Since they've been doing it ever since they mastered it which I believe was practised off-line, that there's literally no risk at all of failing. Halo 2 button combos are either shotgun fists, machine gun burst weapons, light-speed punches, etc. which only delivered an unfair advantage over those that couldn't, which is why they weren't implemented into any new Halo game. It only gave an unfair advantage over those that couldn't.

If it was in Reach, I believe I would still be at coronel (I'm currently Hero) or even lower, because since I can't replicate the glitch in Halo 2 and I would lose far more games, I would get frustrated and play less than I play now. It's either learn how to do it or lose fun over people that became dependent on easy, cheap button combinations.
I find this comment quite contradictory. On one hand you say that there is no risk in performing these glitches (implying that they are so easy to perform that one has little chance of faling), but then on the other hand you admit that they are hard enough that you can't perform them. Which one is it, or do you just have very little faith in your own capabilities?
If you can't perform the glitches consistently yourself, I think it's unreasonable of you to call them "easy", because you are in no position to judge the effort needed to learn them fluently (since you haven't done it yourself).

I also find the statement "which only delivered an unfair advantage over those that couldn't" strange. Why would the advantage be unfair? After all, it is a skill that anyone can practice, hence not unfair. Unless you mean "unfair" in the sense that a player who hasn't mastered the skill has little chance against someone who has. Butr in that case, doesn't that apply to any skill? Certainly, if you can consistently get headshots with the sniper, and I can barely hit, I have little chance against you. Does that mean the sniper gives you an unfair advantage?
I simply said there's no risk for those that have mastered it and that I'm unable to perform the glitch.
I said easy as of how the masters can consistently pull it off like nothing.
A Sniper is a power weapon which you won't always have in your hands. The button combos are... what can I say? Like a power weapon, but that you have at all times, regardless of the weapon you have, because you can, for example, use the BXR combo to overpower a Shotgun or, in extreme cases, an Energy Sword. It's like the Mauler, except that you don't have the weapon in your hands, because your hands ARE the weapon, immediately followed by a likeable headshot.
But anything is easy for someone who has mastered it by definition. That's completely tautological. So what's your point?

By ignoring the difficulty of learning to use button combinations at such efficiency that you can confidently go against an Energy Sword, you're ignoring an essential part of what makes them not overpowered. Going back to the sniper example, if the weapon actually was so easy to learn that with some practice anyone would be getting headshots consistently in no time, the weapon would absolutely be overpowered, even as a power weapon. But it's not, precisely because getting a headshot is so difficult that the one-hit-kill capability of the weapon at any range is basically a nonissue.
tsassi wrote:
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
To me, yes, it is. I don't think it was supposed to be there in the first place. It could be because of the rushed development, as I don't believe Bungie would do that if they hadn't tried to create a new engine.

If your friends can do it, then DEW IT. It makes the games more tense and competitive. If not, try not to.
Personally, don't.
Just out of curiosity, do you play any fighting games?
No, but I have played. But why bring that up?
Do you consider any advanced mechanics or simple combos and links in those games to be cheating?
Risk? I see no risk at all. Since they've been doing it ever since they mastered it which I believe was practised off-line, that there's literally no risk at all of failing. Halo 2 button combos are either shotgun fists, machine gun burst weapons, light-speed punches, etc. which only delivered an unfair advantage over those that couldn't, which is why they weren't implemented into any new Halo game. It only gave an unfair advantage over those that couldn't.

If it was in Reach, I believe I would still be at coronel (I'm currently Hero) or even lower, because since I can't replicate the glitch in Halo 2 and I would lose far more games, I would get frustrated and play less than I play now. It's either learn how to do it or lose fun over people that became dependent on easy, cheap button combinations.
I simply said there's no risk for those that have mastered it and that I'm unable to perform the glitch.
I said easy as of how the masters can consistently pull it off like nothing.
A Sniper is a power weapon which you won't always have in your hands. The button combos are... what can I say? Like a power weapon, but that you have at all times, regardless of the weapon you have, because you can, for example, use the BXR combo to overpower a Shotgun or, in extreme cases, an Energy Sword. It's like the Mauler, except that you don't have the weapon in your hands, because your hands ARE the weapon, immediately followed by a likeable headshot.
But anything is easy for someone who has mastered it by definition. That's completely tautological. So what's your point?

By ignoring the difficulty of learning to use button combinations at such efficiency that you can confidently go against an Energy Sword, you're ignoring an essential part of what makes them not overpowered. Going back to the sniper example, if the weapon actually was so easy to learn that with some practice anyone would be getting headshots consistently in no time, the weapon would absolutely be overpowered, even as a power weapon. But it's not, precisely because getting a headshot is so difficult that the one-hit-kill capability of the weapon at any range is basically a nonissue.
I'm saying that they get to pull easy, cheap button combos that makes them win engagements where they shouldn't survive with no difficulty whatsoever.

Even if you practice to use the Sniper, there's always that chance that they will miss. Not to mention that it's difficult to use it at close range for obvious reasons. Yes, it may be possible to shot and punch the target in the more recent games, but it's not always guaranteed you will hit them. As with BXR, when you melee, your reticle automatically aims at the opponent's head, so there's literally no chance to miss it. Not to mention that BR, although inferior to the Sniper, is still reliable at range. It may still be difficult to use it at long ranges where the Sniper will likely win, but I believe that Halo 2 doesn't have that many maps where the BR has a lot of difficulty hitting someone at those ranges. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
BxSouIjah wrote:
-snip-
Risk? I see no risk at all. Since they've been doing it ever since they mastered it which I believe was practised off-line, that there's literally no risk at all of failing. Halo 2 button combos are either shotgun fists, machine gun burst weapons, light-speed punches, etc. which only delivered an unfair advantage over those that couldn't, which is why they weren't implemented into any new Halo game. It only gave an unfair advantage over those that couldn't.

If it was in Reach, I believe I would still be at coronel (I'm currently Hero) or even lower, because since I can't replicate the glitch in Halo 2 and I would lose far more games, I would get frustrated and play less than I play now. It's either learn how to do it or lose fun over people that became dependent on easy, cheap button combinations.
There are indeed risks when performing a button combo maneuver in Halo 2. If player A attempts a BXR on player B and misses, player B has an opportunity to punish player A's mistake. In the community, we call this a "whiff" and it happens at high level play more often than you think. Let's look at another example, this time involving the Double Shot. If player A is fighting player B but the former is down one shot, then he/she may attempt to execute the "RRX" combo. This is a calculated risk/reward, because even if Player A presses the buttons in the correct frame window, the reticule still has to be placed on player B's head. This is where the skill and clutch factors come into play when looking at this type of engagement in Halo 2. If Player A does not perform the Double Shot correctly than he/she is stuck in an "ending lag" state where they will most likely be punished by getting killed.

Your next sentence is incoherent and illogical. To become better at performing button glitches, it requires you to practice them on other human opponents during actual live games. Myself and many others have been playing H2 since 2004 and rest assured, there is no one on this planet that can say they have "mastered" every one of Halo 2's button combos to the point where they can execute them 100% of the time in every match. So I'm not really sure what point you were trying to make there.

Let me try to tackle your next argument; there is no such thing as people who cannot perform the button combos. Let me explain, if you are a Halo player and you have no physical disabilities which would prevent you from the literal action of pressing buttons, then you can indeed perform a BXR or YY or BXB or RRX or RRBX or XVS etc. Now if one chooses not to learn how to execute the maneuvers that is one thing. But if you can press 2 or 3 buttons in a timed sequenced, the only thing stopping you from doing this stuff right now is lack of knowledge. By your logic, someone with the ability to land sniper headshots has an unfair advantage over you and therefore they should not be allowed to do such an action. This would also mean that just because I know the spawn points on a map and you don't, I have an unfair advantage. Are you starting to see the fallacy in your arguments? Let's relate this to modern sports. Just because certain NBA players can dunk or Alley Oop better than other players, that does not mean the NBA make those moves illegal; in fact those plays are usually the ones that make the Top 10s and highlight reels.

I'll say once again that Button Combinations in Halo 2 are actually the opposite of being cheap or easy based on what I stated above. These advanced techniques are considered high level and add much needed depth to H2's sandbox. What I'm gathering in your second paragraph is "Since I refuse to learn all that the game has to offer, then no one should be allowed to have an advantage over me." This just seems silly and I'm not sure what comparisons you were even trying to make with Reach, however I'll just flat out say that you are wrong and have clearly little knowledge on this subject. But with that being said, I implore you to check out the videos I have posted below to gain a better understanding of Button Combos so you may retort with a stronger and more cohesive argument.

https://youtu.be/UfMJrSlHHdk

https://youtu.be/4SBE7q31xy0

https://youtu.be/H8HtTQOXKA4
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
To me, yes, it is. I don't think it was supposed to be there in the first place. It could be because of the rushed development, as I don't believe Bungie would do that if they hadn't tried to create a new engine.

If your friends can do it, then DEW IT. It makes the games more tense and competitive. If not, try not to.
Personally, don't.
Just out of curiosity, do you play any fighting games?
No, but I have played. But why bring that up?
Do you consider any advanced mechanics or simple combos and links in those games to be cheating?
-snip-
I simply said there's no risk for those that have mastered it and that I'm unable to perform the glitch.
I said easy as of how the masters can consistently pull it off like nothing.
A Sniper is a power weapon which you won't always have in your hands. The button combos are... what can I say? Like a power weapon, but that you have at all times, regardless of the weapon you have, because you can, for example, use the BXR combo to overpower a Shotgun or, in extreme cases, an Energy Sword. It's like the Mauler, except that you don't have the weapon in your hands, because your hands ARE the weapon, immediately followed by a likeable headshot.
There is always a risk when performing a button combo because if you miss or have improper inputs then you are put into a vulnerable position where you cannot shoot back. Just because a player may be able to pull off any one of H2's combos easily, that does not mean they have the movement, positioning, or awareness skills to use the correct one in every situation. Classic Halo games are extremely faced paced in this sense because when player A sees player B (let's say top red base on Midship) you are forced to mentally go through every one of your available options, every one of your opponents available options, pick the option you think is best for the situation, and then hope to execute your plan effectively. As a very high level H2 player, I'll just go ahead and tell you that most engagements with an enemy player don't even require anything more than simple out strafing and a better shot. In many gunfights it isn't worth the risk for me to try a Double or Quad Shot because if you mess up and get caught in a bad position, you may have just costed your team the game. Even when I'm messing around in unranked playlists, I usually kill lesser skilled players by just having better aim and map movement. And I don't want to get too much into it, but the BXR and BXB are actually balanced counters to a player with a Sword or Shotgun. These combos allow for a more fair fight against someone with a Sword in H2 because we all know how ridic the lunge is.

It's also funny when you say "your hands ARE the weapon", because this is actually the reason why people love H2 so much and still play tournaments for the game to this day. You have a lot of individual power and ability in H2 and was lost when H3 came out. In Halo 2, a good player can enter a room with two players on the opposing team and fight his/her way out with a calculated plan of attack. The technical skill and ability this game has to offer feels like an ocean and it's a lovely gameplay experience.
tsassi wrote:
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
To me, yes, it is. I don't think it was supposed to be there in the first place. It could be because of the rushed development, as I don't believe Bungie would do that if they hadn't tried to create a new engine.

If your friends can do it, then DEW IT. It makes the games more tense and competitive. If not, try not to.
Personally, don't.
Just out of curiosity, do you play any fighting games?
No, but I have played. But why bring that up?
Do you consider any advanced mechanics or simple combos and links in those games to be cheating?
Risk? I see no risk at all. Since they've been doing it ever since they mastered it which I believe was practised off-line, that there's literally no risk at all of failing. Halo 2 button combos are either shotgun fists, machine gun burst weapons, light-speed punches, etc. which only delivered an unfair advantage over those that couldn't, which is why they weren't implemented into any new Halo game. It only gave an unfair advantage over those that couldn't.

If it was in Reach, I believe I would still be at coronel (I'm currently Hero) or even lower, because since I can't replicate the glitch in Halo 2 and I would lose far more games, I would get frustrated and play less than I play now. It's either learn how to do it or lose fun over people that became dependent on easy, cheap button combinations.
I simply said there's no risk for those that have mastered it and that I'm unable to perform the glitch.
I said easy as of how the masters can consistently pull it off like nothing.
A Sniper is a power weapon which you won't always have in your hands. The button combos are... what can I say? Like a power weapon, but that you have at all times, regardless of the weapon you have, because you can, for example, use the BXR combo to overpower a Shotgun or, in extreme cases, an Energy Sword. It's like the Mauler, except that you don't have the weapon in your hands, because your hands ARE the weapon, immediately followed by a likeable headshot.
But anything is easy for someone who has mastered it by definition. That's completely tautological. So what's your point?

By ignoring the difficulty of learning to use button combinations at such efficiency that you can confidently go against an Energy Sword, you're ignoring an essential part of what makes them not overpowered. Going back to the sniper example, if the weapon actually was so easy to learn that with some practice anyone would be getting headshots consistently in no time, the weapon would absolutely be overpowered, even as a power weapon. But it's not, precisely because getting a headshot is so difficult that the one-hit-kill capability of the weapon at any range is basically a nonissue.
I'm saying that they get to pull easy, cheap button combos that makes them win engagements where they shouldn't survive with no difficulty whatsoever.

Even if you practice to use the Sniper, there's always that chance that they will miss. Not to mention that it's difficult to use it at close range for obvious reasons. Yes, it may be possible to shot and punch the target in the more recent games, but it's not always guaranteed you will hit them. As with BXR, when you melee, your reticle automatically aims at the opponent's head, so there's literally no chance to miss it. Not to mention that BR, although inferior to the Sniper, is still reliable at range. It may still be difficult to use it at long ranges where the Sniper will likely win, but I believe that Halo 2 doesn't have that many maps where the BR has a lot of difficulty hitting someone at those ranges. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Your first sentence could not be further from the truth. If that was the case there would have been no tournament nor LAN scene for this game, there would not have been thousands of people playing for thousands of dollars to prove who was better. I'm not going to delve further into it, but you are just simply incorrect here.

The part in bold is also 100% false, when you lunge at someone in Halo 2 with the intention of instant killing them, you still have to aim your cursor on their head to land it successfully. This is very hard to do when your opponent is moving and jumping. This is why saying these advanced techniques are "cheap" or "easy" seriously undervalues what goes into close quarters engagements. This is one of the reasons people started clawing in H2. Every combo in this game requires skill, so please do more research before you presents poor arguments as facts.

https://youtu.be/3gVq3tyFpz0

https://youtu.be/99qEhvahNE4

https://youtu.be/jWYmVeUqvt8
BxSouIjah wrote:
tsassi wrote:
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
To me, yes, it is. I don't think it was supposed to be there in the first place. It could be because of the rushed development, as I don't believe Bungie would do that if they hadn't tried to create a new engine.

If your friends can do it, then DEW IT. It makes the games more tense and competitive. If not, try not to.
Personally, don't.
Just out of curiosity, do you play any fighting games?
No, but I have played. But why bring that up?
Do you consider any advanced mechanics or simple combos and links in those games to be cheating?
Risk? I see no risk at all. Since they've been doing it ever since they mastered it which I believe was practised off-line, that there's literally no risk at all of failing. Halo 2 button combos are either shotgun fists, machine gun burst weapons, light-speed punches, etc. which only delivered an unfair advantage over those that couldn't, which is why they weren't implemented into any new Halo game. It only gave an unfair advantage over those that couldn't.

If it was in Reach, I believe I would still be at coronel (I'm currently Hero) or even lower, because since I can't replicate the glitch in Halo 2 and I would lose far more games, I would get frustrated and play less than I play now. It's either learn how to do it or lose fun over people that became dependent on easy, cheap button combinations.
I simply said there's no risk for those that have mastered it and that I'm unable to perform the glitch.
I said easy as of how the masters can consistently pull it off like nothing.
A Sniper is a power weapon which you won't always have in your hands. The button combos are... what can I say? Like a power weapon, but that you have at all times, regardless of the weapon you have, because you can, for example, use the BXR combo to overpower a Shotgun or, in extreme cases, an Energy Sword. It's like the Mauler, except that you don't have the weapon in your hands, because your hands ARE the weapon, immediately followed by a likeable headshot.
But anything is easy for someone who has mastered it by definition. That's completely tautological. So what's your point?

By ignoring the difficulty of learning to use button combinations at such efficiency that you can confidently go against an Energy Sword, you're ignoring an essential part of what makes them not overpowered. Going back to the sniper example, if the weapon actually was so easy to learn that with some practice anyone would be getting headshots consistently in no time, the weapon would absolutely be overpowered, even as a power weapon. But it's not, precisely because getting a headshot is so difficult that the one-hit-kill capability of the weapon at any range is basically a nonissue.
I'm saying that they get to pull easy, cheap button combos that makes them win engagements where they shouldn't survive with no difficulty whatsoever.

Even if you practice to use the Sniper, there's always that chance that they will miss. Not to mention that it's difficult to use it at close range for obvious reasons. Yes, it may be possible to shot and punch the target in the more recent games, but it's not always guaranteed you will hit them. As with BXR, when you melee, your reticle automatically aims at the opponent's head, so there's literally no chance to miss it. Not to mention that BR, although inferior to the Sniper, is still reliable at range. It may still be difficult to use it at long ranges where the Sniper will likely win, but I believe that Halo 2 doesn't have that many maps where the BR has a lot of difficulty hitting someone at those ranges. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Your first sentence could not be further from the truth. If that was the case there would have been no tournament nor LAN scene for this game, there would not have been thousands of people playing for thousands of dollars to prove who was better. I'm not going to delve further into it, but you are just simply incorrect here.

The part in bold is also 100% false, when you lunge at someone in Halo 2 with the intention of instant killing them, you still have to aim your cursor on their head to land it successfully. This is very hard to do when your opponent is moving and jumping. This is why saying these advanced techniques are "cheap" or "easy" seriously undervalues what goes into close quarters engagements. This is one of the reasons people started clawing in H2. Every combo in this game requires skill, so please do more research before you presents poor arguments as facts.

https://youtu.be/3gVq3tyFpz0

https://youtu.be/99qEhvahNE4

https://youtu.be/jWYmVeUqvt8
Ok, you got me in the bold sentence. To me it was done so fast it looked automatic.
Maybe thinking about, there may be a risk in doing them then. You have provided me tutorials that show the risks. I've only seen the combos in regular recorded games, so I always though how there was no real skill, risk and how cheap it was. I was wrong.
Well, I still consider them cheap, but skill and risk is what comes into play when performing them and I now see them.

Still, I'm keeping my opinion that the button combos are cheating, because they weren't intended to be in the game, but with a new positive view. And for that I thank you.
BxSouIjah wrote:
tsassi wrote:
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
To me, yes, it is. I don't think it was supposed to be there in the first place. It could be because of the rushed development, as I don't believe Bungie would do that if they hadn't tried to create a new engine.

If your friends can do it, then DEW IT. It makes the games more tense and competitive. If not, try not to.
Personally, don't.
Just out of curiosity, do you play any fighting games?
No, but I have played. But why bring that up?
Do you consider any advanced mechanics or simple combos and links in those games to be cheating?
Risk? I see no risk at all. Since they've been doing it ever since they mastered it which I believe was practised off-line, that there's literally no risk at all of failing. Halo 2 button combos are either shotgun fists, machine gun burst weapons, light-speed punches, etc. which only delivered an unfair advantage over those that couldn't, which is why they weren't implemented into any new Halo game. It only gave an unfair advantage over those that couldn't.

If it was in Reach, I believe I would still be at coronel (I'm currently Hero) or even lower, because since I can't replicate the glitch in Halo 2 and I would lose far more games, I would get frustrated and play less than I play now. It's either learn how to do it or lose fun over people that became dependent on easy, cheap button combinations.
I simply said there's no risk for those that have mastered it and that I'm unable to perform the glitch.
I said easy as of how the masters can consistently pull it off like nothing.
A Sniper is a power weapon which you won't always have in your hands. The button combos are... what can I say? Like a power weapon, but that you have at all times, regardless of the weapon you have, because you can, for example, use the BXR combo to overpower a Shotgun or, in extreme cases, an Energy Sword. It's like the Mauler, except that you don't have the weapon in your hands, because your hands ARE the weapon, immediately followed by a likeable headshot.
But anything is easy for someone who has mastered it by definition. That's completely tautological. So what's your point?

By ignoring the difficulty of learning to use button combinations at such efficiency that you can confidently go against an Energy Sword, you're ignoring an essential part of what makes them not overpowered. Going back to the sniper example, if the weapon actually was so easy to learn that with some practice anyone would be getting headshots consistently in no time, the weapon would absolutely be overpowered, even as a power weapon. But it's not, precisely because getting a headshot is so difficult that the one-hit-kill capability of the weapon at any range is basically a nonissue.
-snip-
Ok, you got me in the bold sentence. To me it was done so fast it looked automatic.
Maybe thinking about, there may be a risk in doing them then. You have provided me tutorials that show the risks. I've only seen the combos in regular recorded games, so I always though how there was no real skill, risk and how cheap it was. I was wrong.
Well, I still consider them cheap, but skill and risk is what comes into play when performing them and I now see them.

Still, I'm keeping my opinion that the button combos are cheating, because they weren't intended to be in the game, but with a new positive view. And for that I thank you.
Would you consider dunking a basketball in an NBA game to be cheating? Would you consider a mechanic like Wavedashing in Super Smash Bros Melee to be cheating? Would you consider a high-low mixup in Street Fighter 2 to be cheating?

Just because something is being done by a player in game that was not intended nor planned by the game's developer, does not mean the action is cheating. You can't equate phenomenal play and execution with unethical performances just because you can't see the beauty and expression being done. Like I stated before, there is a reason thousands of people gathered for tournaments every couple of months to play for tens, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars. You have no logical footing to stand on.
BxSouIjah wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
tsassi wrote:
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
To me, yes, it is. I don't think it was supposed to be there in the first place. It could be because of the rushed development, as I don't believe Bungie would do that if they hadn't tried to create a new engine.

If your friends can do it, then DEW IT. It makes the games more tense and competitive. If not, try not to.
Personally, don't.
Just out of curiosity, do you play any fighting games?
No, but I have played. But why bring that up?
Do you consider any advanced mechanics or simple combos and links in those games to be cheating?
Risk? I see no risk at all. Since they've been doing it ever since they mastered it which I believe was practised off-line, that there's literally no risk at all of failing. Halo 2 button combos are either shotgun fists, machine gun burst weapons, light-speed punches, etc. which only delivered an unfair advantage over those that couldn't, which is why they weren't implemented into any new Halo game. It only gave an unfair advantage over those that couldn't.

If it was in Reach, I believe I would still be at coronel (I'm currently Hero) or even lower, because since I can't replicate the glitch in Halo 2 and I would lose far more games, I would get frustrated and play less than I play now. It's either learn how to do it or lose fun over people that became dependent on easy, cheap button combinations.
I simply said there's no risk for those that have mastered it and that I'm unable to perform the glitch.
I said easy as of how the masters can consistently pull it off like nothing.
A Sniper is a power weapon which you won't always have in your hands. The button combos are... what can I say? Like a power weapon, but that you have at all times, regardless of the weapon you have, because you can, for example, use the BXR combo to overpower a Shotgun or, in extreme cases, an Energy Sword. It's like the Mauler, except that you don't have the weapon in your hands, because your hands ARE the weapon, immediately followed by a likeable headshot.
But anything is easy for someone who has mastered it by definition. That's completely tautological. So what's your point?

By ignoring the difficulty of learning to use button combinations at such efficiency that you can confidently go against an Energy Sword, you're ignoring an essential part of what makes them not overpowered. Going back to the sniper example, if the weapon actually was so easy to learn that with some practice anyone would be getting headshots consistently in no time, the weapon would absolutely be overpowered, even as a power weapon. But it's not, precisely because getting a headshot is so difficult that the one-hit-kill capability of the weapon at any range is basically a nonissue.
-snip-
Ok, you got me in the bold sentence. To me it was done so fast it looked automatic.
Maybe thinking about, there may be a risk in doing them then. You have provided me tutorials that show the risks. I've only seen the combos in regular recorded games, so I always though how there was no real skill, risk and how cheap it was. I was wrong.
Well, I still consider them cheap, but skill and risk is what comes into play when performing them and I now see them.

Still, I'm keeping my opinion that the button combos are cheating, because they weren't intended to be in the game, but with a new positive view. And for that I thank you.
Would you consider dunking a basketball in an NBA game to be cheating? Would you consider a mechanic like Wavedashing in Super Smash Bros Melee to be cheating? Would you consider a high-low mixup in Street Fighter 2 to be cheating?

Just because something is being done by a player in game that was not intended nor planned by the game's developer, does not mean the action is cheating. You can't equate phenomenal play and execution with unethical performances just because you can't see the beauty and expression being done. Like I stated before, there is a reason thousands of people gathered for tournaments every couple of months to play for tens, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars. You have no logical footing to stand on.
I said I would still consider them cheating but with a new positive view and I'm not changing it. I even thanked you for providing what was needed for me to get a new vision upon it. Why insist?
BxSouIjah wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
tsassi wrote:
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
To me, yes, it is. I don't think it was supposed to be there in the first place. It could be because of the rushed development, as I don't believe Bungie would do that if they hadn't tried to create a new engine.

If your friends can do it, then DEW IT. It makes the games more tense and competitive. If not, try not to.
Personally, don't.
Just out of curiosity, do you play any fighting games?
No, but I have played. But why bring that up?
Do you consider any advanced mechanics or simple combos and links in those games to be cheating?
Risk? I see no risk at all. Since they've been doing it ever since they mastered it which I believe was practised off-line, that there's literally no risk at all of failing. Halo 2 button combos are either shotgun fists, machine gun burst weapons, light-speed punches, etc. which only delivered an unfair advantage over those that couldn't, which is why they weren't implemented into any new Halo game. It only gave an unfair advantage over those that couldn't.

If it was in Reach, I believe I would still be at coronel (I'm currently Hero) or even lower, because since I can't replicate the glitch in Halo 2 and I would lose far more games, I would get frustrated and play less than I play now. It's either learn how to do it or lose fun over people that became dependent on easy, cheap button combinations.
I simply said there's no risk for those that have mastered it and that I'm unable to perform the glitch.
I said easy as of how the masters can consistently pull it off like nothing.
A Sniper is a power weapon which you won't always have in your hands. The button combos are... what can I say? Like a power weapon, but that you have at all times, regardless of the weapon you have, because you can, for example, use the BXR combo to overpower a Shotgun or, in extreme cases, an Energy Sword. It's like the Mauler, except that you don't have the weapon in your hands, because your hands ARE the weapon, immediately followed by a likeable headshot.
But anything is easy for someone who has mastered it by definition. That's completely tautological. So what's your point?

By ignoring the difficulty of learning to use button combinations at such efficiency that you can confidently go against an Energy Sword, you're ignoring an essential part of what makes them not overpowered. Going back to the sniper example, if the weapon actually was so easy to learn that with some practice anyone would be getting headshots consistently in no time, the weapon would absolutely be overpowered, even as a power weapon. But it's not, precisely because getting a headshot is so difficult that the one-hit-kill capability of the weapon at any range is basically a nonissue.
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Ok, you got me in the bold sentence. To me it was done so fast it looked automatic.
Maybe thinking about, there may be a risk in doing them then. You have provided me tutorials that show the risks. I've only seen the combos in regular recorded games, so I always though how there was no real skill, risk and how cheap it was. I was wrong.
Well, I still consider them cheap, but skill and risk is what comes into play when performing them and I now see them.

Still, I'm keeping my opinion that the button combos are cheating, because they weren't intended to be in the game, but with a new positive view. And for that I thank you.
Would you consider dunking a basketball in an NBA game to be cheating? Would you consider a mechanic like Wavedashing in Super Smash Bros Melee to be cheating? Would you consider a high-low mixup in Street Fighter 2 to be cheating?

Just because something is being done by a player in game that was not intended nor planned by the game's developer, does not mean the action is cheating. You can't equate phenomenal play and execution with unethical performances just because you can't see the beauty and expression being done. Like I stated before, there is a reason thousands of people gathered for tournaments every couple of months to play for tens, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars. You have no logical footing to stand on.
You need to understand that it's just a matter of definition, not a matter of logic. You can keep insisting, but the reality is that your opinion is no more objective or logical than his. People call things cheating based on arbitrary moral standards, and nothing else. That applies to me, that applies to you, and that applies to him. You can take issue with him considering button combinations cheating, and you can take issue with me not regarding any glitches as cheating, but there's nothing in it for you. Just an endless sea of semantics.
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
tsassi wrote:
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
tsassi wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
BxSouIjah wrote:
To me, yes, it is. I don't think it was supposed to be there in the first place. It could be because of the rushed development, as I don't believe Bungie would do that if they hadn't tried to create a new engine.

If your friends can do it, then DEW IT. It makes the games more tense and competitive. If not, try not to.
Personally, don't.
Just out of curiosity, do you play any fighting games?
No, but I have played. But why bring that up?
Do you consider any advanced mechanics or simple combos and links in those games to be cheating?
Risk? I see no risk at all. Since they've been doing it ever since they mastered it which I believe was practised off-line, that there's literally no risk at all of failing. Halo 2 button combos are either shotgun fists, machine gun burst weapons, light-speed punches, etc. which only delivered an unfair advantage over those that couldn't, which is why they weren't implemented into any new Halo game. It only gave an unfair advantage over those that couldn't.

If it was in Reach, I believe I would still be at coronel (I'm currently Hero) or even lower, because since I can't replicate the glitch in Halo 2 and I would lose far more games, I would get frustrated and play less than I play now. It's either learn how to do it or lose fun over people that became dependent on easy, cheap button combinations.
I simply said there's no risk for those that have mastered it and that I'm unable to perform the glitch.
I said easy as of how the masters can consistently pull it off like nothing.
A Sniper is a power weapon which you won't always have in your hands. The button combos are... what can I say? Like a power weapon, but that you have at all times, regardless of the weapon you have, because you can, for example, use the BXR combo to overpower a Shotgun or, in extreme cases, an Energy Sword. It's like the Mauler, except that you don't have the weapon in your hands, because your hands ARE the weapon, immediately followed by a likeable headshot.
But anything is easy for someone who has mastered it by definition. That's completely tautological. So what's your point?

By ignoring the difficulty of learning to use button combinations at such efficiency that you can confidently go against an Energy Sword, you're ignoring an essential part of what makes them not overpowered. Going back to the sniper example, if the weapon actually was so easy to learn that with some practice anyone would be getting headshots consistently in no time, the weapon would absolutely be overpowered, even as a power weapon. But it's not, precisely because getting a headshot is so difficult that the one-hit-kill capability of the weapon at any range is basically a nonissue.
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Ok, you got me in the bold sentence. To me it was done so fast it looked automatic.
Maybe thinking about, there may be a risk in doing them then. You have provided me tutorials that show the risks. I've only seen the combos in regular recorded games, so I always though how there was no real skill, risk and how cheap it was. I was wrong.
Well, I still consider them cheap, but skill and risk is what comes into play when performing them and I now see them.

Still, I'm keeping my opinion that the button combos are cheating, because they weren't intended to be in the game, but with a new positive view. And for that I thank you.
Would you consider dunking a basketball in an NBA game to be cheating? Would you consider a mechanic like Wavedashing in Super Smash Bros Melee to be cheating? Would you consider a high-low mixup in Street Fighter 2 to be cheating?

Just because something is being done by a player in game that was not intended nor planned by the game's developer, does not mean the action is cheating. You can't equate phenomenal play and execution with unethical performances just because you can't see the beauty and expression being done. Like I stated before, there is a reason thousands of people gathered for tournaments every couple of months to play for tens, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars. You have no logical footing to stand on.
You need to understand that it's just a matter of definition, not a matter of logic. You can keep insisting, but the reality is that your opinion is no more objective or logical than his. People call things cheating based on arbitrary moral standards, and nothing else. That applies to me, that applies to you, and that applies to him. You can take issue with him considering button combinations cheating, and you can take issue with me not regarding any glitches as cheating, but there's nothing in it for you. Just an endless sea of semantics.
"Just an endless sea of semantics"
You're abusing a glitch to gain an advantage over those that refuse to participate in the exploit. Of course you're cheating what kind of question even is that. They don't want you to exploit a glitch and therefore you should not. If you continue to do so, you're cheating.
You're abusing a glitch to gain an advantage over those that refuse to participate in the exploit. Of course you're cheating what kind of question even is that. They don't want you to exploit a glitch and therefore you should not. If you continue to do so, you're cheating.
So we should just handicap ourselves by obeying player’s arbitrary honor rules? What if you were playing Halo with a person that labels other players that use power weapons and power-ups as cheaters because that person thinks it’s unfair and cheap. Would you obey that person’s arbitrary honor rules and handicap yourself by not using power weapons and power-ups?

It doesn’t matter if button glitches and other exploits were intentional or unintentional by Bungie because the bottom line is that they are an aspect of Halo 2 just like power weapons and power-ups are an aspect of Halo 2. People that utilize button glitches and other exploits as legitimate tactics are most likely approaching Halo 2 with a play to win mentality. People that deem other players that utilize button glitches and other exploits as cheaters are most likely not approaching Halo 2 with a play to win mentality.
The button glitches and exploits that Halo 2 MLG tournaments allowed and prohibited weren’t chosen arbitrarily. Halo 2 MLG tournaments allowed for players to utilize button glitches and exploits such as BXR, BXB, double shooting, quad shooting, mid clip BXR(RRBX) and ect because the consensus in the competitive Halo 2 community is that those button glitches and exploits add depth to the game when analyzing them from a competitive merit standpoint. Halo 2 MLG tournaments prohibited super bouncing because the consensus in the competitive Halo 2 community is that super bouncing is detrimental to the game when analyzing the exploit from a competitive merit standpoint.

The only time that BXR should be considered cheating is in the specific context of a Halo 2 tournament that prohibits button glitches and exploits such as BXR. Same type of logic should be applied to super bouncing. Super bouncing should only be considered cheating in the specific context of Halo 2 tournaments that prohibit super bouncing like Halo 2 MLG tournaments did.
I've been playing system link on halo 2 on my OG xbox with some buddies. Whenever I BXR them they say it's cheating. Should I stop?
In my opinion it is cheating.
So because it's in the game, its cheating? So what is sprint considered? Or crouch jumping?
Okay here we go. A long time ago Bungie made a post. I can no longer find this post. I have tried. But it basically stated that button combos were not available in every copy of the game. Apparently in the PAL region the combos were impossible because of the way frame rates worked or something. Because PAL and non PAL regions did get into matchmaking together it was an unfair advantage that not everyone could utilize. So it was directly stated to be cheating by Bungie. They didn't call super bouncing cheating. I guess because it was possible across all releases of the game. At the closing of the Halo 2 servers they did put a derogatory message about super bouncing that said something like "it may not be cheating but you still look like a jerk from down here".
nah man, i can't remember the exact details but you can do all the button combos, just it was a little more frame precise, super bouncing was the hardest one to PAL users, as i think PAL 50 was more limited than PAL 60 or NTSC.

Also as a side note, look at fighting games where many tech moves aren't intended
in shooters bunny hopping, circle strafing in quake to gain momentum and many other things were not intended
most of the forge tools in reach onward came through unintended glitches in halo 3

if the glitch doesn't cheapen the tactics or skill of the game
eg delaying the game by escaping the map, a move so powerful and simple it has to be done to win or something that helps to cheese are not welcome
it was patched but the super grenade throw was also a cool glitch found in h4

the point is it really isn't cheating until it's patched out, especially so when in a circumstance where it does get accepted (something halo fans dont do unlike other online games it seems) by everyone it improves the depth of the game.

Button combos shouldn't of been shunned, they should of been accepted and highlighted in-game, not so much as a mechanic but as a helpful quirk, similar to gandhi hop, sk strafe, spring jumping, backpack reloading, nade launching, supernading or fast falling, they aren't huge game changers but help add a little garnish to the mix.
You're abusing a glitch to gain an advantage over those that refuse to participate in the exploit. Of course you're cheating what kind of question even is that. They don't want you to exploit a glitch and therefore you should not. If you continue to do so, you're cheating.
But how is it cheating if anyone can do it?
xxcloud7xx wrote:
You're abusing a glitch to gain an advantage over those that refuse to participate in the exploit. Of course you're cheating what kind of question even is that. They don't want you to exploit a glitch and therefore you should not. If you continue to do so, you're cheating.
So we should just handicap ourselves by obeying player’s arbitrary honor rules? What if you were playing Halo with a person that labels other players that use power weapons and power-ups as cheaters because that person thinks it’s unfair and cheap. Would you obey that person’s arbitrary honor rules and handicap yourself by not using power weapons and power-ups?

It doesn’t matter if button glitches and other exploits were intentional or unintentional by Bungie because the bottom line is that they are an aspect of Halo 2 just like power weapons and power-ups are an aspect of Halo 2. People that utilize button glitches and other exploits as legitimate tactics are most likely approaching Halo 2 with a play to win mentality. People that deem other players that utilize button glitches and other exploits as cheaters are most likely not approaching Halo 2 with a play to win mentality.
The button glitches and exploits that Halo 2 MLG tournaments allowed and prohibited weren’t chosen arbitrarily. Halo 2 MLG tournaments allowed for players to utilize button glitches and exploits such as BXR, BXB, double shooting, quad shooting, mid clip BXR(RRBX) and ect because the consensus in the competitive Halo 2 community is that those button glitches and exploits add depth to the game when analyzing them from a competitive merit standpoint. Halo 2 MLG tournaments prohibited super bouncing because the consensus in the competitive Halo 2 community is that super bouncing is detrimental to the game when analyzing the exploit from a competitive merit standpoint.

The only time that BXR should be considered cheating is in the specific context of a Halo 2 tournament that prohibits button glitches and exploits such as BXR. Same type of logic should be applied to super bouncing. Super bouncing should only be considered cheating in the specific context of Halo 2 tournaments that prohibit super bouncing like Halo 2 MLG tournaments did.
How in the world is NOT taking advantage of exploits that other people are not giving yourself a negative handicap? You realize what the definition of handicap is right? You would be playing the on the same field as them. Continuing to do so despite the people you are playing against expressly stating that they view it as unsportsmanlike makes you a -Yoink-. Now let it be perfectly understood, I am not talking about tournaments. I'm talking about the OP's post where he asked if his friends calling him a cheater specifically during their interactions is justified.

Also, if you have to type a small novel to justify using an exploit against someone then chances are you're cheating.
xxcloud7xx wrote:
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How in the world is NOT taking advantage of exploits that other people are not giving yourself a negative handicap? You realize what the definition of handicap is right? You would be playing the on the same field as them. Continuing to do so despite the people you are playing against expressly stating that they view it as unsportsmanlike makes you a -Yoink-. Now let it be perfectly understood, I am not talking about tournaments. I'm talking about the OP's post where he asked if his friends calling him a cheater specifically during their interactions is justified.

Also, if you have to type a small novel to justify using an exploit against someone then chances are you're cheating.
Not utilizing button glitches such as BXR to your advantage due to some fictitious arbitrary honor rule is handicapping yourself because you're limiting yourself from using other available tatics in Halo 2 that can help give you a greater chance of winning the game if utilized efficiently. I’m not going to lower my own level of play to match my opponents level of play when playing Halo against players that have a lower skill level than me so that we can be on an even playing field. When I’m playing Halo against players that are more skilled than me I don’t expect my opponents to lower their level of play to match my own level of play so that we can be on an even playing field. When playing Halo against players that are more skilled than me I strive to improve myself as a player by attempting to play Halo at my opponents skill level.

It’s the game developer’s responsibility to provide players a fair and even playing field in competitive video games by providing an adequate ranking system that matches players appropriately according to their level of skill. In an ideal ranking system low skilled players would be matched against other low skilled players and high skilled players would be matched against other high skilled players.
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I'm talking about the OP's post where he asked if his friends calling him a cheater specifically during their interactions is justified.
The only way that I could see the OP being unfair when playing Halo 2 with his friends is if he was purposely withholding knowledge about Halo 2's nuances and intricacies from his friends. If the OP's friends are open minded enough then he could share and teach his friends all the knowledge he knows about Halo 2's nuances and intricacies. After the OP teaches his friends all the nuances and intricacies that he knows about Halo 2 then he could utilize button glitches such as BXR against his friends and it wouldn't be considered unfair for him to do so because the OP and all of his friends would have equal knowledge of Halo 2's nuances and intricacies.
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Also, if you have to type a small novel to justify using an exploit against someone then chances are you're cheating.
Utilizing glitches and exploits in Halo 2 outside the context of tournaments that prohibit glitches and exploits can't be considered cheating because there is no authority making up rules and there is no said authority enforcing said made up rules.

The people that think that Bungie still has authority over what button glitches and exploits players can do and can't do in Halo 2 are naive. Bungie gave up the authority to decide what button glitches and exploits that players can and can't utilize in Halo 2 when they decided not to patch them out of Halo 2. If Bungie truly didn't want players to abuse button glitches and exploits in Halo 2 then Bungie should of patched them out of Halo 2 when they had the opportunity to do so.

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win
BxSouIjah wrote:
You're abusing a glitch to gain an advantage over those that refuse to participate in the exploit. Of course you're cheating what kind of question even is that. They don't want you to exploit a glitch and therefore you should not. If you continue to do so, you're cheating.
But how is it cheating if anyone can do it?
That's what I had said but do we really wanna stoke the fires on this again?
Also, if you have to type a small novel to justify using an exploit against someone then chances are you're cheating.
If you have to explicitly tell someone an exploit is cheating, chances are they fundamentally disagree with you on what constitutes cheating. In which case it would be enormously helpful to not act judgemental, and instead have a discussion of the drawbacks and benefits of different view points.

xxcloud7xx wrote:
The only way that I could see the OP being unfair when playing Halo 2 with his friends is if he was purposely withholding knowledge about Halo 2's nuances and intricacies from his friends. If the OP's friends are open minded enough then he could share and teach his friends all the knowledge he knows about Halo 2's nuances and intricacies. After the OP teaches his friends all the nuances and intricacies that he knows about Halo 2 then he could utilize button glitches such as BXR against his friends and it wouldn't be considered unfair for him to do so because the OP and all of his friends would have equal knowledge of Halo 2's nuances and intricacies.
To be honest, we don't really know much about OP's situation, but if your friends are genuinely bothered by something you do, and you keep doing it anyway, you're just being a jerk. Forget all about BXR and glitches. That's not relevant. It's all about being a decent friend so that everyone can have fun.
tsassi wrote:
Also, if you have to type a small novel to justify using an exploit against someone then chances are you're cheating.
If you have to explicitly tell someone an exploit is cheating, chances are they fundamentally disagree with you on what constitutes cheating. In which case it would be enormously helpful to not act judgemental, and instead have a discussion of the drawbacks and benefits of different view points.

xxcloud7xx wrote:
The only way that I could see the OP being unfair when playing Halo 2 with his friends is if he was purposely withholding knowledge about Halo 2's nuances and intricacies from his friends. If the OP's friends are open minded enough then he could share and teach his friends all the knowledge he knows about Halo 2's nuances and intricacies. After the OP teaches his friends all the nuances and intricacies that he knows about Halo 2 then he could utilize button glitches such as BXR against his friends and it wouldn't be considered unfair for him to do so because the OP and all of his friends would have equal knowledge of Halo 2's nuances and intricacies.
To be honest, we don't really know much about OP's situation, but if your friends are genuinely bothered by something you do, and you keep doing it anyway, you're just being a jerk. Forget all about BXR and glitches. That's not relevant. It's all about being a decent friend so that everyone can have fun.
I have played Halo 1 and Halo 2 with some of my friends that considered button glitches and other exploits as cheating but my friends changed their perspective on button glitches and other exploits when I explained to them that they are legitimate aspects of the games that people utilize as legitimate tactics. After that I showed my friends how to perform the button glitches in Halo 1 and Halo 2. To be honest if I was playing Halo 1 and Halo 2 with some of my friends but they were being so closed minded that they wouldn’t allow me to explain to them what the button glitches in Halo 1 and Halo 2 are and how to perform the button glitches then I would probably really reconsider if I want to remain friends with such closed minded people.

If my friends asked me to stop utilizing power-ups and power weapons against them when playing Halo with them because they find it unfair and not fun then I wouldn’t obey their wishes. I would also do the same exact thing if my friends asked me to stop utilizing button combos and other exploits against them when playing Halo 1 and Halo 2 with them. Yes obeying my friends wishes when playing Halo with them would allow my friends to have more fun but would also come at the expense of my own fun. At that point I would probably stop playing Halo with my friends and try to find a different video game to play with my friends that we can all have fun playing together.

Edit: You’re right that we don’t know that much information about OP’s situation. The OP could stop utilizing button glitches such as BXR against his friends but just like myself that could come at the expense of the OP’s own fun. The only advice that I can give to the OP is to share all the knowledge that he knows about Halo 2’s nuances and intricacies with his friends and for him to try to teach his friends how to perform button glitches like BXR. If button glitches in Halo 2 like BXR truly does bother the OP’s friends then I recommend for the OP to try to find a different video game other than Halo 2 that both him and his friends can all enjoy playing together.
Essentially their argument boils down to, if you think BXR in H2 is cheating, then you think being competent at the game make you a cheater. Lol
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