Forums / Games / Halo: The Master Chief Collection (Xbox)

DMR ruins reach multiplayer

OP Janz33

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RollCats wrote:
I think it's another case of 343 not wanting to own up to past mistakes. Vanilla Reach (Bungie) >> TU (343i).

Also, spawning with DMRs should never be a thing, even in vanilla reach. The whole reason BR starts were favored in H3 (and almost necessary in H2) was that there was no weapon off spawn that could effectively counteract it.

With bloom, and with the power of the magnum, you can effectively defend yourself from DMRs and Needle Rifles, without being able to just spawn and cross map people.

Then, knowing where the precision rifles spawn actually matters and adds another tactical level to gameplay.

I could go on and on...
Seems extremely rare to find people who understand this on here. Couldn’t have said it better.
Yes, spawn everyone with a pea shooter. I miss the days when a Halo game would spawn people with only an AR/SMG/pistol and I could easily go 20-0 picking off players who had no way to defend themselves.
Yes, spawn everyone with a pea shooter. I miss the days when a Halo game would spawn people with only an AR/SMG/pistol and I could easily go 20-0 picking off players who had no way to defend themselves.
And people who weren't good enough to dual-wield or pick up another weapon on the field (such as a BR/Carbine/DMR/Needle Rifle). This sounds like lack of skill for me, rather than unproper functionality of the starting weapons. I'm sure you could have done the same with BR starts/DMR starts as they don't seem to be competent enemies. No one with a decent amount of skill would constantly fight against a precision weapon with the spawning weapon in unsuitable scenaries or straight lines or without any tactic.

In addition, AR + Pistol starts are not pea shooters in Reach. This shows a lack of game and sandbox understanding. That might have been the case for the SMG or the Halo 3 AR, but not this one. With the way TU changed gameplay, the Assault Rifle is viable at close range, and the Magnum has always been useful if used and paced correctly when in the proper range (which are skill factors too).

Map control, power weapons and such become more important and more game changing, leading to greater comebacks (more reasonable than with old auto starts, as we're just changing the current utility weapon in favour of the Magnum) in a balanced environment, with the appropiate skill and team matching. In Reach specifically, vehicles are not a joke anymore as the amount of precision rifles per team is not as harmful. Better return to Vanilla, but given that it's not a possibility, just keep the OPTION to avoid DMR starts and join AR + Pistol starts again. Or weight them accurately according to the new playerbase.
Yes, spawn everyone with a pea shooter. I miss the days when a Halo game would spawn people with only an AR/SMG/pistol and I could easily go 20-0 picking off players who had no way to defend themselves.
More like “picking off people who are either unfamiliar with the game or just happen to be playing mindlessly and not picking up their own power weapons or using strategy to use their AR/Magnum more effectively against you.”
Yes, spawn everyone with a pea shooter. I miss the days when a Halo game would spawn people with only an AR/SMG/pistol and I could easily go 20-0 picking off players who had no way to defend themselves.
And people who weren't good enough to dual-wield or pick up another weapon on the field (such as a BR/Carbine/DMR/Needle Rifle). This sounds like lack of skill for me, rather than unproper functionality of the starting weapons. I'm sure you could have done the same with BR starts/DMR starts as they don't seem to be competent enemies. No one with a decent amount of skill would constantly fight against a precision weapon with the spawning weapon in unsuitable scenaries or straight lines or without any tactic.

In addition, AR + Pistol starts are not pea shooters in Reach. This shows a lack of game and sandbox understanding. That might have been the case for the SMG or the Halo 3 AR, but not this one. With the way TU changed gameplay, the Assault Rifle is viable at close range, and the Magnum has always been useful if used and paced correctly when in the proper range (which are skill factors too).

Map control, power weapons and such become more important and more game changing, leading to greater comebacks (more reasonable than with old auto starts, as we're just changing the current utility weapon in favour of the Magnum) in a balanced environment, with the appropiate skill and team matching. In Reach specifically, vehicles are not a joke anymore as the amount of precision rifles per team is not as harmful. Better return to Vanilla, but given that it's not a possibility, just keep the OPTION to avoid DMR starts and join AR + Pistol starts again. Or weight them accurately according to the new playerbase.
Soooo..... With AR starts instead of everyone having a fighting chance its just who ever picks up a DMR first will win.
Yes, spawn everyone with a pea shooter. I miss the days when a Halo game would spawn people with only an AR/SMG/pistol and I could easily go 20-0 picking off players who had no way to defend themselves.
And people who weren't good enough to dual-wield or pick up another weapon on the field (such as a BR/Carbine/DMR/Needle Rifle). This sounds like lack of skill for me, rather than unproper functionality of the starting weapons. I'm sure you could have done the same with BR starts/DMR starts as they don't seem to be competent enemies. No one with a decent amount of skill would constantly fight against a precision weapon with the spawning weapon in unsuitable scenaries or straight lines or without any tactic.

In addition, AR + Pistol starts are not pea shooters in Reach. This shows a lack of game and sandbox understanding. That might have been the case for the SMG or the Halo 3 AR, but not this one. With the way TU changed gameplay, the Assault Rifle is viable at close range, and the Magnum has always been useful if used and paced correctly when in the proper range (which are skill factors too).

Map control, power weapons and such become more important and more game changing, leading to greater comebacks (more reasonable than with old auto starts, as we're just changing the current utility weapon in favour of the Magnum) in a balanced environment, with the appropiate skill and team matching. In Reach specifically, vehicles are not a joke anymore as the amount of precision rifles per team is not as harmful. Better return to Vanilla, but given that it's not a possibility, just keep the OPTION to avoid DMR starts and join AR + Pistol starts again. Or weight them accurately according to the new playerbase.
Soooo..... With AR starts instead of everyone having a fighting chance its just who ever picks up a DMR first will win.
It seems that you didn't take the time to read the whole post but only parts of it. That situation would only be possible in an unbalanced scenario that I've yet to see actually in matchmaking (given that there's practically no skill matching in place, it's amazing it has never appeared). Whoever picks up a DMR first has a temporal chance to make a comeback or to dominate a part of players. Whenever someone outsmarts him with his starting weapons, or the enemies manage to pick up another precision wepaon (you know, the Needle Rifle, another DMR that is in your base...) you've lost that advantage, and must work to recover it. Again this shows a complete lack of understanding of the sandbox and of challenge sense. Just like the DMR/BR starts followers always point out our faults at the game, it's your turn to know yours. If you can't contest a single DMR with quite a competent weapon, you're just spamming your weapons mindlessly and don't even try to find another one or be sneaky. Skill factors, too.

Moreover, AR + Pistol starts ensure an utility weapon, just like I've said countless times. It's not like you're spawning with the H2 SMG (which could be dual-wielded by the way). The first who picks up the DMR or any power weapon won't win, this is a long time lie. The team who manages to keep them as long as possible and refuses all comebacks succesfully will. There are constant turns of power and many strategies involved that may change the result of a game, allowing variety of weaponry and gameplay for the sake of fun AND competitiveness (just in another way which focus in map control, while still giving you a viable weapon off spawn). We're not even trying to delete DMR starts nor to make AR only starts. You're not counting the right and balanced utility weapon: the Magnum. We just want an option to enjoy our official preference (made by the original developers).

Go to FFA, custom games or Invasion and tell me if it's true that whenever someone picks up the DMR automatically wins. You're not taking into account the amount of work after that to keep the weapon and not deplete its ammo mindlessly (something which is just not present in DMR starts and rewards pacing). These arguments are being obsolete and repetitive, rather than explanatories.
Yes, spawn everyone with a pea shooter. I miss the days when a Halo game would spawn people with only an AR/SMG/pistol and I could easily go 20-0 picking off players who had no way to defend themselves.
And people who weren't good enough to dual-wield or pick up another weapon on the field (such as a BR/Carbine/DMR/Needle Rifle). This sounds like lack of skill for me, rather than unproper functionality of the starting weapons. I'm sure you could have done the same with BR starts/DMR starts as they don't seem to be competent enemies. No one with a decent amount of skill would constantly fight against a precision weapon with the spawning weapon in unsuitable scenaries or straight lines or without any tactic.

In addition, AR + Pistol starts are not pea shooters in Reach. This shows a lack of game and sandbox understanding. That might have been the case for the SMG or the Halo 3 AR, but not this one. With the way TU changed gameplay, the Assault Rifle is viable at close range, and the Magnum has always been useful if used and paced correctly when in the proper range (which are skill factors too).

Map control, power weapons and such become more important and more game changing, leading to greater comebacks (more reasonable than with old auto starts, as we're just changing the current utility weapon in favour of the Magnum) in a balanced environment, with the appropiate skill and team matching. In Reach specifically, vehicles are not a joke anymore as the amount of precision rifles per team is not as harmful. Better return to Vanilla, but given that it's not a possibility, just keep the OPTION to avoid DMR starts and join AR + Pistol starts again. Or weight them accurately according to the new playerbase.
Soooo..... With AR starts instead of everyone having a fighting chance its just who ever picks up a DMR first will win.
It seems that you didn't take the time to read the whole post but only parts of it. That situation would only be possible in an unbalanced scenario that I've yet to see actually in matchmaking (given that there's practically no skill matching in place, it's amazing it has never appeared). Whoever picks up a DMR first has a temporal chance to make a comeback or to dominate a part of players. Whenever someone outsmarts him with his starting weapons, or the enemies manage to pick up another precision wepaon (you know, the Needle Rifle, another DMR that is in your base...) you've lost that advantage, and must work to recover it. Again this shows a complete lack of understanding of the sandbox and of challenge sense. Just like the DMR/BR starts followers always point out our faults at the game, it's your turn to know yours. If you can't contest a single DMR with quite a competent weapon, you're just spamming your weapons mindlessly and don't even try to find another one or be sneaky. Skill factors, too.

Moreover, AR + Pistol starts ensure an utility weapon, just like I've said countless times. It's not like you're spawning with the H2 SMG (which could be dual-wielded by the way). The first who picks up the DMR or any power weapon won't win, this is a long time lie. The team who manages to keep them as long as possible and refuses all comebacks succesfully will. There are constant turns of power and many strategies involved that may change the result of a game, allowing variety of weaponry and gameplay for the sake of fun AND competitiveness (just in another way which focus in map control, while still giving you a viable weapon off spawn). We're not even trying to delete DMR starts nor to make AR only starts. You're not counting the right and balanced utility weapon: the Magnum. We just want an option to enjoy our official preference (made by the original developers).

Go to FFA, custom games or Invasion and tell me if it's true that whenever someone picks up the DMR automatically wins. You're not taking into account the amount of work after that to keep the weapon and not deplete its ammo mindlessly (something which is just not present in DMR starts and rewards pacing). These arguments are being obsolete and repetitive, rather than explanatories.
A coordinated team can make a come back. A team of randoms on daily matchmaking will not. Ar starts plain and simple makes the DMR a power weapon. You are under the impression a team of randoms can pull together and win which almost never happens against a team with even a few players partied. In FFA its everyone against themselves, in BTB however partied players will often protect the player(s) with a DMR. The DMR needs to be the baseline weapon to start with, not the Ar or magnum.
Yes, spawn everyone with a pea shooter. I miss the days when a Halo game would spawn people with only an AR/SMG/pistol and I could easily go 20-0 picking off players who had no way to defend themselves.
And people who weren't good enough to dual-wield or pick up another weapon on the field (such as a BR/Carbine/DMR/Needle Rifle). This sounds like lack of skill for me, rather than unproper functionality of the starting weapons. I'm sure you could have done the same with BR starts/DMR starts as they don't seem to be competent enemies. No one with a decent amount of skill would constantly fight against a precision weapon with the spawning weapon in unsuitable scenaries or straight lines or without any tactic.

In addition, AR + Pistol starts are not pea shooters in Reach. This shows a lack of game and sandbox understanding. That might have been the case for the SMG or the Halo 3 AR, but not this one. With the way TU changed gameplay, the Assault Rifle is viable at close range, and the Magnum has always been useful if used and paced correctly when in the proper range (which are skill factors too).

Map control, power weapons and such become more important and more game changing, leading to greater comebacks (more reasonable than with old auto starts, as we're just changing the current utility weapon in favour of the Magnum) in a balanced environment, with the appropiate skill and team matching. In Reach specifically, vehicles are not a joke anymore as the amount of precision rifles per team is not as harmful. Better return to Vanilla, but given that it's not a possibility, just keep the OPTION to avoid DMR starts and join AR + Pistol starts again. Or weight them accurately according to the new playerbase.
Soooo..... With AR starts instead of everyone having a fighting chance its just who ever picks up a DMR first will win.
It seems that you didn't take the time to read the whole post but only parts of it. That situation would only be possible in an unbalanced scenario that I've yet to see actually in matchmaking (given that there's practically no skill matching in place, it's amazing it has never appeared). Whoever picks up a DMR first has a temporal chance to make a comeback or to dominate a part of players. Whenever someone outsmarts him with his starting weapons, or the enemies manage to pick up another precision wepaon (you know, the Needle Rifle, another DMR that is in your base...) you've lost that advantage, and must work to recover it. Again this shows a complete lack of understanding of the sandbox and of challenge sense. Just like the DMR/BR starts followers always point out our faults at the game, it's your turn to know yours. If you can't contest a single DMR with quite a competent weapon, you're just spamming your weapons mindlessly and don't even try to find another one or be sneaky. Skill factors, too.

Moreover, AR + Pistol starts ensure an utility weapon, just like I've said countless times. It's not like you're spawning with the H2 SMG (which could be dual-wielded by the way). The first who picks up the DMR or any power weapon won't win, this is a long time lie. The team who manages to keep them as long as possible and refuses all comebacks succesfully will. There are constant turns of power and many strategies involved that may change the result of a game, allowing variety of weaponry and gameplay for the sake of fun AND competitiveness (just in another way which focus in map control, while still giving you a viable weapon off spawn). We're not even trying to delete DMR starts nor to make AR only starts. You're not counting the right and balanced utility weapon: the Magnum. We just want an option to enjoy our official preference (made by the original developers).

Go to FFA, custom games or Invasion and tell me if it's true that whenever someone picks up the DMR automatically wins. You're not taking into account the amount of work after that to keep the weapon and not deplete its ammo mindlessly (something which is just not present in DMR starts and rewards pacing). These arguments are being obsolete and repetitive, rather than explanatories.
You are under the impression a team of randoms can pull together and win which almost never happens against a team with even a few players partied.
It's not an impression. Old Reach shows AR + Pistol starts work perfectly, aside obviously from partied teams, but the situation only gets worse with DMR starts. A coordinated team may use those DMRs to their advantage even more, from different angles, previously set positions and ranges that are prepared by talking. Clearly, they get more options to create effective strategies with a powerful utility weapon off spawn. With AR + Magnum starts, they just don't have the amount of DMRs to dominate until they get power weapons control (supposedly uncontested, but with a decent skill matching system I believe you still have a chance).

Undoubtedly a team of randoms versus randoms can always make a comeback. If both are partied, same. I agree the problem comes when it's a team versus some randoms; however, the situation just doesn't go away with DMR starts, due to the above reasons and because the power weapons are now the normal ones. They can get control of them just like where in AR + Pistol starts they get DMRs. The only actual way to fix that is partial or complete party matching. Nevertheless, with the addition to PC we actually got a way to communicate by text chat with our teammates, which can be used agains parties.

My point here is that those problems affect equally to both starting weapons. You're not going to do better in BTB against a team of 8 whether you get a DMR or not (in OG Reach they'd get Falcons and kill mindlessly). In balanced and fair matchmaking situations (by enabling party matching, skill matching and joining in progress in specific cases and with rewards), both starting weapons work as you still get a decent utility weapon: the Magnum.

I'm not trying to remove DMR starts; they keep a balanced competitive environment for most of the time. But AR + Pistol are perfectly viable due to the way TU works. Just give this part of the community an option in Social (meant mainly for fun) to enjoy the other playstyle if you don't want to play them.
Yes, spawn everyone with a pea shooter. I miss the days when a Halo game would spawn people with only an AR/SMG/pistol and I could easily go 20-0 picking off players who had no way to defend themselves.
And people who weren't good enough to dual-wield or pick up another weapon on the field (such as a BR/Carbine/DMR/Needle Rifle). This sounds like lack of skill for me, rather than unproper functionality of the starting weapons. I'm sure you could have done the same with BR starts/DMR starts as they don't seem to be competent enemies. No one with a decent amount of skill would constantly fight against a precision weapon with the spawning weapon in unsuitable scenaries or straight lines or without any tactic.

In addition, AR + Pistol starts are not pea shooters in Reach. This shows a lack of game and sandbox understanding. That might have been the case for the SMG or the Halo 3 AR, but not this one. With the way TU changed gameplay, the Assault Rifle is viable at close range, and the Magnum has always been useful if used and paced correctly when in the proper range (which are skill factors too).

Map control, power weapons and such become more important and more game changing, leading to greater comebacks (more reasonable than with old auto starts, as we're just changing the current utility weapon in favour of the Magnum) in a balanced environment, with the appropiate skill and team matching. In Reach specifically, vehicles are not a joke anymore as the amount of precision rifles per team is not as harmful. Better return to Vanilla, but given that it's not a possibility, just keep the OPTION to avoid DMR starts and join AR + Pistol starts again. Or weight them accurately according to the new playerbase.
Soooo..... With AR starts instead of everyone having a fighting chance its just who ever picks up a DMR first will win.
It seems that you didn't take the time to read the whole post but only parts of it. That situation would only be possible in an unbalanced scenario that I've yet to see actually in matchmaking (given that there's practically no skill matching in place, it's amazing it has never appeared). Whoever picks up a DMR first has a temporal chance to make a comeback or to dominate a part of players. Whenever someone outsmarts him with his starting weapons, or the enemies manage to pick up another precision wepaon (you know, the Needle Rifle, another DMR that is in your base...) you've lost that advantage, and must work to recover it. Again this shows a complete lack of understanding of the sandbox and of challenge sense. Just like the DMR/BR starts followers always point out our faults at the game, it's your turn to know yours. If you can't contest a single DMR with quite a competent weapon, you're just spamming your weapons mindlessly and don't even try to find another one or be sneaky. Skill factors, too.

Moreover, AR + Pistol starts ensure an utility weapon, just like I've said countless times. It's not like you're spawning with the H2 SMG (which could be dual-wielded by the way). The first who picks up the DMR or any power weapon won't win, this is a long time lie. The team who manages to keep them as long as possible and refuses all comebacks succesfully will. There are constant turns of power and many strategies involved that may change the result of a game, allowing variety of weaponry and gameplay for the sake of fun AND competitiveness (just in another way which focus in map control, while still giving you a viable weapon off spawn). We're not even trying to delete DMR starts nor to make AR only starts. You're not counting the right and balanced utility weapon: the Magnum. We just want an option to enjoy our official preference (made by the original developers).

Go to FFA, custom games or Invasion and tell me if it's true that whenever someone picks up the DMR automatically wins. You're not taking into account the amount of work after that to keep the weapon and not deplete its ammo mindlessly (something which is just not present in DMR starts and rewards pacing). These arguments are being obsolete and repetitive, rather than explanatories.
You are under the impression a team of randoms can pull together and win which almost never happens against a team with even a few players partied.
It's not an impression. Old Reach shows AR + Pistol starts work perfectly, aside obviously from partied teams, but the situation only gets worse with DMR starts. A coordinated team may use those DMRs to their advantage even more, from different angles, previously set positions and ranges that are prepared by talking. Clearly, they get more options to create effective strategies with a powerful utility weapon off spawn. With AR + Magnum starts, they just don't have the amount of DMRs to dominate until they get power weapons control (supposedly uncontested, but with a decent skill matching system I believe you still have a chance).

Undoubtedly a team of randoms versus randoms can always make a comeback. If both are partied, same. I agree the problem comes when it's a team versus some randoms; however, the situation just doesn't go away with DMR starts, due to the above reasons and because the power weapons are now the normal ones. They can get control of them just like where in AR + Pistol starts they get DMRs. The only actual way to fix that is partial or complete party matching. Nevertheless, with the addition to PC we actually got a way to communicate by text chat with our teammates, which can be used agains parties.

My point here is that those problems affect equally to both starting weapons. You're not going to do better in BTB against a team of 8 whether you get a DMR or not (in OG Reach they'd get Falcons and kill mindlessly). In balanced and fair matchmaking situations (by enabling party matching, skill matching and joining in progress in specific cases and with rewards), both starting weapons work as you still get a decent utility weapon: the Magnum.

I'm not trying to remove DMR starts; they keep a balanced competitive environment for most of the time. But AR + Pistol are perfectly viable due to the way TU works. Just give this part of the community an option in Social (meant mainly for fun) to enjoy the other playstyle if you don't want to play them.
I have ran into way more balanced game with DMR starts then when we had AR starts in OG Reach. Difference of opinion I guess.
Yes, spawn everyone with a pea shooter. I miss the days when a Halo game would spawn people with only an AR/SMG/pistol and I could easily go 20-0 picking off players who had no way to defend themselves.
And people who weren't good enough to dual-wield or pick up another weapon on the field (such as a BR/Carbine/DMR/Needle Rifle). This sounds like lack of skill for me, rather than unproper functionality of the starting weapons. I'm sure you could have done the same with BR starts/DMR starts as they don't seem to be competent enemies. No one with a decent amount of skill would constantly fight against a precision weapon with the spawning weapon in unsuitable scenaries or straight lines or without any tactic.

In addition, AR + Pistol starts are not pea shooters in Reach. This shows a lack of game and sandbox understanding. That might have been the case for the SMG or the Halo 3 AR, but not this one. With the way TU changed gameplay, the Assault Rifle is viable at close range, and the Magnum has always been useful if used and paced correctly when in the proper range (which are skill factors too).

Map control, power weapons and such become more important and more game changing, leading to greater comebacks (more reasonable than with old auto starts, as we're just changing the current utility weapon in favour of the Magnum) in a balanced environment, with the appropiate skill and team matching. In Reach specifically, vehicles are not a joke anymore as the amount of precision rifles per team is not as harmful. Better return to Vanilla, but given that it's not a possibility, just keep the OPTION to avoid DMR starts and join AR + Pistol starts again. Or weight them accurately according to the new playerbase.
Soooo..... With AR starts instead of everyone having a fighting chance its just who ever picks up a DMR first will win.
No, because one guy with a DMR can only do so much. When a whole team always has it, team shots kill way quicker. One guy with one DMR he picked up can only do so much with the ammo and time allotted and even then he can be cut short by teamwork, distractions, or allowing himself to get flanked. When everyone has a DMR very little close quarters gameplay can even happen in the first place and 2v1 situations are pretty much impossible to survive. It also turns any open stretches of map into areas where nobody ever sets foot. So it turns into a camp fest . if you want to play a camp fest I’d suggest a game with more claymores and shotguns.
RollCats wrote:
RollCats wrote:
Magnum battles are way more fun than TU dmr battles. Magnum takes more skill to use because it has less auto aim.
Magnum fights are more chance based if either player spams shots, due to its extreme bloom.
The Magnum and NR in Vanilla Reach actually have effective bloom in that it is actually extremely punishing. I rarely loose to someone spamming their shots in those 1v1s.

This is why the DMR actually needs MORE bloom, not less, to be balanced with the rest of the sandbox and to more effectively reward pacing
The problem with bloom is its not like recoil for weapons where it can be controlled though skilled and practice. Bloom just places your shots randomly forcing you to pace at a very specific rate regardless of your skill and that's the biggest issue with it.

On top of all of this once again it is only a 15% reduction. You all act like they got rid of bloom all together.
This post summarizes it perfectly. There's no skill in "controlling" RNG inserted into a skill-driven mechanic like aim and accuracy.

Also: No, the magnum is not considered a precision weapon. It's categorized under small arms, and can't hope to compete at any range outside of "very close" against a DMR or needle rifle.
Yes, spawn everyone with a pea shooter. I miss the days when a Halo game would spawn people with only an AR/SMG/pistol and I could easily go 20-0 picking off players who had no way to defend themselves.
And people who weren't good enough to dual-wield or pick up another weapon on the field (such as a BR/Carbine/DMR/Needle Rifle). This sounds like lack of skill for me, rather than unproper functionality of the starting weapons. I'm sure you could have done the same with BR starts/DMR starts as they don't seem to be competent enemies. No one with a decent amount of skill would constantly fight against a precision weapon with the spawning weapon in unsuitable scenaries or straight lines or without any tactic.

In addition, AR + Pistol starts are not pea shooters in Reach. This shows a lack of game and sandbox understanding. That might have been the case for the SMG or the Halo 3 AR, but not this one. With the way TU changed gameplay, the Assault Rifle is viable at close range, and the Magnum has always been useful if used and paced correctly when in the proper range (which are skill factors too).

Map control, power weapons and such become more important and more game changing, leading to greater comebacks (more reasonable than with old auto starts, as we're just changing the current utility weapon in favour of the Magnum) in a balanced environment, with the appropiate skill and team matching. In Reach specifically, vehicles are not a joke anymore as the amount of precision rifles per team is not as harmful. Better return to Vanilla, but given that it's not a possibility, just keep the OPTION to avoid DMR starts and join AR + Pistol starts again. Or weight them accurately according to the new playerbase.
Soooo..... With AR starts instead of everyone having a fighting chance its just who ever picks up a DMR first will win.
No, because one guy with a DMR can only do so much. When a whole team always has it, team shots kill way quicker. One guy with one DMR he picked up can only do so much with the ammo and time allotted and even then he can be cut short by teamwork, distractions, or allowing himself to get flanked. When everyone has a DMR very little close quarters gameplay can even happen in the first place and 2v1 situations are pretty much impossible to survive. It also turns any open stretches of map into areas where nobody ever sets foot. So it turns into a camp fest . if you want to play a camp fest I’d suggest a game with more claymores and shotguns.
Nope. Don't want a camp fest and frankly don't see how it is now.
RollCats wrote:
I think it's another case of 343 not wanting to own up to past mistakes. Vanilla Reach (Bungie) >> TU (343i).

Also, spawning with DMRs should never be a thing, even in vanilla reach. The whole reason BR starts were favored in H3 (and almost necessary in H2) was that there was no weapon off spawn that could effectively counteract it.

With bloom, and with the power of the magnum, you can effectively defend yourself from DMRs and Needle Rifles, without being able to just spawn and cross map people.

Then, knowing where the precision rifles spawn actually matters and adds another tactical level to gameplay.

I could go on and on...
DMRs are power weapons in Ar starts and TU is only a 15% reduction of bloom. All bloom does is allow bad players to unfairly compete against more skilled players. Every Halo has had Precision weapons starts be more popular.
If you pace your shots you will do better it does not allow better players to be better than people who have better aim. We could go to OG reach right now and we can take turns just spraying shots the DMR and let's see who gets more points. Boom makes it to where you have to pace your shots which does take skill. Or are you saying that in the TU settings firing as fast as you can take skill? In the original reach people who spray their shots were going to die yes there's a chance but it was not a reliable source of damage, and people looked pretty stupid you could tell if somebody was a noob just by doing that. Could you be a little bit more elaborate when you say it bloom allows bad players to go up against good players. Because there are modes in Halo Reach that work for competitive mode but competition is not everything be competitive crowd as maybe 1% or 2% of the entire community.

The DMR can take out everything, the AR will not go up against a team using nothing but DMR's I can guarantee you that. That was not the case in the OG reach. The TU settings that 343 industries has done I like the armor ability changes but the DMR is the go-to case weapon for every single scenario it is as good as a sniper now you can use it against every single weapon in the game. Tell me when you have a DMR how often is it that you get killed by a another DMR? the game has become boring because everyone has same weapon and there is no other variety.
You go to OG Halo Reach right now or even back in the day every single time we had to vote on a map when I was playing most people did not want a DMR start.
Yes, spawn everyone with a pea shooter. I miss the days when a Halo game would spawn people with only an AR/SMG/pistol and I could easily go 20-0 picking off players who had no way to defend themselves.
And people who weren't good enough to dual-wield or pick up another weapon on the field (such as a BR/Carbine/DMR/Needle Rifle). This sounds like lack of skill for me, rather than unproper functionality of the starting weapons. I'm sure you could have done the same with BR starts/DMR starts as they don't seem to be competent enemies. No one with a decent amount of skill would constantly fight against a precision weapon with the spawning weapon in unsuitable scenaries or straight lines or without any tactic.

In addition, AR + Pistol starts are not pea shooters in Reach. This shows a lack of game and sandbox understanding. That might have been the case for the SMG or the Halo 3 AR, but not this one. With the way TU changed gameplay, the Assault Rifle is viable at close range, and the Magnum has always been useful if used and paced correctly when in the proper range (which are skill factors too).

Map control, power weapons and such become more important and more game changing, leading to greater comebacks (more reasonable than with old auto starts, as we're just changing the current utility weapon in favour of the Magnum) in a balanced environment, with the appropiate skill and team matching. In Reach specifically, vehicles are not a joke anymore as the amount of precision rifles per team is not as harmful. Better return to Vanilla, but given that it's not a possibility, just keep the OPTION to avoid DMR starts and join AR + Pistol starts again. Or weight them accurately according to the new playerbase.
Soooo..... With AR starts instead of everyone having a fighting chance its just who ever picks up a DMR first will win.
It seems that you didn't take the time to read the whole post but only parts of it. That situation would only be possible in an unbalanced scenario that I've yet to see actually in matchmaking (given that there's practically no skill matching in place, it's amazing it has never appeared). Whoever picks up a DMR first has a temporal chance to make a comeback or to dominate a part of players. Whenever someone outsmarts him with his starting weapons, or the enemies manage to pick up another precision wepaon (you know, the Needle Rifle, another DMR that is in your base...) you've lost that advantage, and must work to recover it. Again this shows a complete lack of understanding of the sandbox and of challenge sense. Just like the DMR/BR starts followers always point out our faults at the game, it's your turn to know yours. If you can't contest a single DMR with quite a competent weapon, you're just spamming your weapons mindlessly and don't even try to find another one or be sneaky. Skill factors, too.

Moreover, AR + Pistol starts ensure an utility weapon, just like I've said countless times. It's not like you're spawning with the H2 SMG (which could be dual-wielded by the way). The first who picks up the DMR or any power weapon won't win, this is a long time lie. The team who manages to keep them as long as possible and refuses all comebacks succesfully will. There are constant turns of power and many strategies involved that may change the result of a game, allowing variety of weaponry and gameplay for the sake of fun AND competitiveness (just in another way which focus in map control, while still giving you a viable weapon off spawn). We're not even trying to delete DMR starts nor to make AR only starts. You're not counting the right and balanced utility weapon: the Magnum. We just want an option to enjoy our official preference (made by the original developers).

Go to FFA, custom games or Invasion and tell me if it's true that whenever someone picks up the DMR automatically wins. You're not taking into account the amount of work after that to keep the weapon and not deplete its ammo mindlessly (something which is just not present in DMR starts and rewards pacing). These arguments are being obsolete and repetitive, rather than explanatories.
A coordinated team can make a come back. A team of randoms on daily matchmaking will not. Ar starts plain and simple makes the DMR a power weapon. You are under the impression a team of randoms can pull together and win which almost never happens against a team with even a few players partied. In FFA its everyone against themselves, in BTB however partied players will often protect the player(s) with a DMR. The DMR needs to be the baseline weapon to start with, not the Ar or magnum.
And nobody would pick up any other weapon in the game the DMR (like a car salesman) it can do it all you can snipe with it you can use it as an assault rifle or pistol, then the game becomes boring. Because everyone uses the same weapons like nothing else exists. Oh sure some people will pick up the sniper or the shotgun maybe even the sword because it's unblockable but if you're good with the DMR and their sniper is distracted with everybody else you can take him out it's not that hard anymore to go up against a sniper with a DMR, for the shotgun just stay two meters back and you win the engagement. So you're saying that we should just remove every other gun in the game because you like the DMR? or that every other gun in the game is useless? and everyone should just use the DMR because it's better?

In OG reach the AR could go up against a DMR that is not the case with the TU settings. I have tried really tried to use the AR against another DMR player there's no way you're going to win. So the DMR has no competition it right now is the best weapon in the game, you start with the weapon and the AR you have in your inventory is completely useless so you drop it for another weapon which usually includes the shotgun, sword, sniper, or rockets on most maps very rarely will you see anyone use the AR because everyone knows it's useless in the TU settings.
Yes, spawn everyone with a pea shooter. I miss the days when a Halo game would spawn people with only an AR/SMG/pistol and I could easily go 20-0 picking off players who had no way to defend themselves.
And people who weren't good enough to dual-wield or pick up another weapon on the field (such as a BR/Carbine/DMR/Needle Rifle). This sounds like lack of skill for me, rather than unproper functionality of the starting weapons. I'm sure you could have done the same with BR starts/DMR starts as they don't seem to be competent enemies. No one with a decent amount of skill would constantly fight against a precision weapon with the spawning weapon in unsuitable scenaries or straight lines or without any tactic.

In addition, AR + Pistol starts are not pea shooters in Reach. This shows a lack of game and sandbox understanding. That might have been the case for the SMG or the Halo 3 AR, but not this one. With the way TU changed gameplay, the Assault Rifle is viable at close range, and the Magnum has always been useful if used and paced correctly when in the proper range (which are skill factors too).

Map control, power weapons and such become more important and more game changing, leading to greater comebacks (more reasonable than with old auto starts, as we're just changing the current utility weapon in favour of the Magnum) in a balanced environment, with the appropiate skill and team matching. In Reach specifically, vehicles are not a joke anymore as the amount of precision rifles per team is not as harmful. Better return to Vanilla, but given that it's not a possibility, just keep the OPTION to avoid DMR starts and join AR + Pistol starts again. Or weight them accurately according to the new playerbase.
Soooo..... With AR starts instead of everyone having a fighting chance its just who ever picks up a DMR first will win.
No, because one guy with a DMR can only do so much. When a whole team always has it, team shots kill way quicker. One guy with one DMR he picked up can only do so much with the ammo and time allotted and even then he can be cut short by teamwork, distractions, or allowing himself to get flanked. When everyone has a DMR very little close quarters gameplay can even happen in the first place and 2v1 situations are pretty much impossible to survive. It also turns any open stretches of map into areas where nobody ever sets foot. So it turns into a camp fest . if you want to play a camp fest I’d suggest a game with more claymores and shotguns.
Nope. Don't want a camp fest and frankly don't see how it is now.
I don't think it's a camp fest I think it just stagnation everyone uses the same weapon.and that's pretty boring if you asking me I don't want to play a game with one gun in it you start off with it and it's one of the best things you can use so I get rid of it.
RollCats wrote:
RollCats wrote:
Magnum battles are way more fun than TU dmr battles. Magnum takes more skill to use because it has less auto aim.
Magnum fights are more chance based if either player spams shots, due to its extreme bloom.
The Magnum and NR in Vanilla Reach actually have effective bloom in that it is actually extremely punishing. I rarely loose to someone spamming their shots in those 1v1s.

This is why the DMR actually needs MORE bloom, not less, to be balanced with the rest of the sandbox and to more effectively reward pacing
The problem with bloom is its not like recoil for weapons where it can be controlled though skilled and practice. Bloom just places your shots randomly forcing you to pace at a very specific rate regardless of your skill and that's the biggest issue with it.

On top of all of this once again it is only a 15% reduction. You all act like they got rid of bloom all together.
This post summarizes it perfectly. There's no skill in "controlling" RNG inserted into a skill-driven mechanic like aim and accuracy.

Also: No, the magnum is not considered a precision weapon. It's categorized under small arms, and can't hope to compete at any range outside of "very close" against a DMR or needle rifle.
It is not random though maybe if you spray and pray like an idiot, Pace your shots and take your time you will win most 1 v 1 DMR engagements. And the AR was a competitor and close range for the DMR so was the Magnum. You can legitimately use the DMR as good as a sniper in the TU settings there's stagnation when everybody uses the same weapon over and over again which leads to people camping and spawn trapping people so that they have no choice but to lose on big team Battle it's horrible team Slayer you have a chance but if you're going to pick against the full team just might as well quit.
"Everyone uses the same weapon"...thats Halo.
-CE was the magnum, then the other weapons filled niche around it.
- 2 was BR
- 3 was BR, just H3 BR was trash
- Reach DMR
- 4, 4 differerent shades of the same thing
- 5 pistol is now a precision weapon for the first time since CE
Halo is a 2 weapon game. Proper arena shooters are on PC where all weapons are available to hold. In quake, 3 weapons make up most of the game and 3-4 more niche use. CS:GO has an economy, players gravitate to certain weapons. All shooters have a more narrow sandbox than posters here give credit for. The only alternative is CoD where everone there has 5-6 variations of the same function. Halo is NOT that, halo has been a '1 gun game' from inception, in both MP and campaign (odst was pistol).

As for DMR or Ar/pistol. (Ill use pinnacle as example as issue is really pronounced on that map) A good team with DMRs will always win, but heres the kicker..AR and pistol both drop off in effectiveness as close as behind the small sniper tower to the rocks in front of it. DMR has enough ammo for 4-6 kills (haven't checked) and spawns every minute, sometimes 30 sec. Sniper spawns 2 locations every 2 min with 12? Shots.

Any map with open spaces, long LoS, abundant precision, long range or explosive weapons will be held on spawn by the better team as they are zoned and dont have damage that can extend to them, not meaningful quick damage. This extends to the majority of forge maps, BTB maps, powerhouse, anchor 9, battle creek, solitary and reflection to some extent, boardwalk, penance, swordbase, condemned & high noon. Players with a DMR may still lose but can get kills off spawn now. Players that are teamed up that i could beat 50-35/40 by carrying my team ~+10-20 in DMR starts, could crush me in AR starts just by virtue of me not having any significant damage beyond the range of a 4-5 second walk, whatever number that may be.
"Everyone uses the same weapon"...thats Halo.
-CE was the magnum, then the other weapons filled niche around it.
- 2 was BR
- 3 was BR, just H3 BR was trash
- Reach DMR
- 4, 4 differerent shades of the same thing
- 5 pistol is now a precision weapon for the first time since CE
Halo is a 2 weapon game. Proper arena shooters are on PC where all weapons are available to hold. In quake, 3 weapons make up most of the game and 3-4 more niche use. CS:GO has an economy, players gravitate to certain weapons. All shooters have a more narrow sandbox than posters here give credit for. The only alternative is CoD where everone there has 5-6 variations of the same function. Halo is NOT that, halo has been a '1 gun game' from inception, in both MP and campaign (odst was pistol).

As for DMR or Ar/pistol. (Ill use pinnacle as example as issue is really pronounced on that map) A good team with DMRs will always win, but heres the kicker..AR and pistol both drop off in effectiveness as close as behind the small sniper tower to the rocks in front of it. DMR has enough ammo for 4-6 kills (haven't checked) and spawns every minute, sometimes 30 sec. Sniper spawns 2 locations every 2 min with 12? Shots.

Any map with open spaces, long LoS, abundant precision, long range or explosive weapons will be held on spawn by the better team as they are zoned and dont have damage that can extend to them, not meaningful quick damage. This extends to the majority of forge maps, BTB maps, powerhouse, anchor 9, battle creek, solitary and reflection to some extent, boardwalk, penance, swordbase, condemned & high noon. Players with a DMR may still lose but can get kills off spawn now. Players that are teamed up that i could beat 50-35/40 by carrying my team ~+10-20 in DMR starts, could crush me in AR starts just by virtue of me not having any significant damage beyond the range of a 4-5 second walk, whatever number that may be.
You're always describing that situation as if you didn't have precision weapons close to you, even at your base. The more I read, the more it seems that you never think of tactics to get in range nor to steal those power weapons before the enemy team. In addition, you never take into account that ammo and environment awareness are so important that if you lose control of one of them, you no longer have that advantage of having a good precision weapon / power one. Moreover, Reach Magnum (although their variants in Anniversary - MLG are clearly better and would be fine for testing) is not meaningful by any means, not in Reach, doesn't matter what someone says if he hasn't achieved the skill required to master it at most ranges. The easier way is to pace and fire slowly while hiding somewhere, or just crouching correctly to decrease spread. I believe that's the Reach right utility weapon: hard to use, skillful and with decent range (just like every Halo, 2x zoom). Of course the scenaries you describe are dangerous, such as the BTB ones, are dangerous in settings like auto only starts, but not with a decent utility weapon (that can be buffed, though).

Also, countering that argument always comes to the way matchmaking works. If a good team manages to get all DMRs, Needle Rifles, semi-power weapons and energy weapons, then it deserve to win. Skill matching nor team matching are in place so these types of unbalanced situations happen, unfortunately. Those parameters, mixed with join in progress (in specific cases) would create a healthier experience for both starting weapons, as they suffer from the same spawning abuse in those situations. By that way, comebacks are more reliable and map control doens't automatically mean a win.
You're always describing that situation as if you didn't have precision weapons close to you, even at your base a large chunk of spawns are vulnerable (easily visible) and too far away from a precision pick-up, spawning with a dmr contests spawn pressure, against any competant player you will be shot and you cannot return damage.The more I read, the more it seems that you never think of tactics to get in range nor to steal those power weapons before the enemy team.
i've inferred in other threads though ill infer here, if a single player is good enough to time weapons and survive (h3 ~35) then they can use the weapons to secure the rest. Once a team controls the strong power weapons (rocket + snipe) then in AR starts players need to go into a large score deficit to break control and make it neutral again. Since the other team that wins power weapons will gain precision weapon control, players with no range have to run to get into cqb range for ar/pistol to contest dmr/nr + snipe, rocks. With dmr players have more leverage. In addition, you never take into account that ammo and environment awareness are so important that if you lose control of one of them, you no longer have that advantage of having a good precision weapon / power one.
in ar starts if you lose control of one, ar/magnum is trash and loses the rest. The starting fight is sloppy but once a team has the stronger advantage they sweep away the other teams advantages, thats halo, but once you die you spawn with a 10m max range, slow killtime capability and no precision that has no means to contest.Moreover, Reach Magnum (although their variants in Anniversary - MLG are clearly better and would be fine for testing) is not meaningful by any means, not in Reach, doesn't matter what someone says if he hasn't achieved the skill required to master it at most ranges. The easier way is to pace and fire slowly while hiding somewhere, or just crouching correctly to decrease spread. I believe that's the Reach right utility weapon: hard to use, skillful and with decent range (just like every Halo, 2x zoom).
no other shooter game spawns you with such horrible potential. At least quake has item abundance and fast movespeed. The romanticism is delusional. You self admit the reach pistol sucks, that doesn't make it admirable when precidion weapons are pickups with ammo as or more abundant than the pistol off-spawn. It has no range and your only advice for effectiveness is to not move and crouch. Not moving when you have no power is a death sentence. Most Reach 4v4 maps don't have hiding poditions, not ones safe from being collapsed on.Of course the scenaries you describe are dangerous, such as the BTB ones, are dangerous in settings like auto only starts, but not with a decent utility weapon (that can be buffed, though).
the decent utility weapon would simply be the reach dmr with zero bloom, either with a regular zoom or slower rate of fire.Also, countering that argument always comes to the way matchmaking works. If a good team manages to get all DMRs, Needle Rifles, semi-power weapons and energy weapons, then it deserve to win.
as above you just need to get a sniper, kill rockets, then get rid of those who have picked up precision weapons. With a dmr/snipe in your hands you can shut out all other power weapons and keep teams zoned. I do this all the time. They cannot contest, even good players will struggle as they have no means to kill me.Skill matching nor team matching are in place so these types of unbalanced situations happen, unfortunately. Those parameters, mixed with join in progress (in specific cases) would create a healthier experience for both starting weapons, as they suffer from the same spawning abuse in those situations. By that way, comebacks are more reliable and map control doens't automatically mean a win.
i don't know what youre arguing for here but spawn abuse and map control is far more prevalent in ar start games. Only in games where all 8 players are not good enough to pull of map control of any sort does it not affect the game. Comebacks are more reliable when individual skill is powerful enough to disrupt teamplay, doesnt happen in ar starts.
A large chunk of spawns are vulnerable (easily visible) and too far away from a precision pick-up, spawning with a dmr contests spawn pressure, against any competant player you will be shot and you cannot return damage.
The actual issue with DMR starts in terms of spawning is that there's always a huge crew (like in 4v4, 8v8) pointing at yourself and other fresh spawns. Even when having the tools (the DMR), you cannot contest them, just run and hope they fail their shots or a teammate assists you. You can't only depend on enemy failures to survive spawning. When everyone spawns with AR + Pistol, there are simply not enough damaging precision weapons to shut down the spawning players or to prevent any kind of comeback (ammo comes in to play, this part is negated in DMR starts). Again your bases usually have some DMR/Needle Rifle spawns, or a Sniper, and if not, that's horrendous map design. Even Pinnacle (the map you mention) had some precision weapons to fight over and in the respective bases. Moreover, those "vulnerable chunks" don't disappear with DMR starts. You depend on luck to fight with a spawn killer at the other side of the map (due to the extreme DMR range capabilities). Either tune them appropiately or remove them from the rotation. There are plenty of DLC Halo CE maps and forge good designs to prevent those issues.

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i've inferred in other threads though ill infer here, if a single player is good enough to time weapons and survive (h3 ~35) then they can use the weapons to secure the rest. Once a team controls the strong power weapons (rocket + snipe) then in AR starts players need to go into a large score deficit to break control and make it neutral again. Since the other team that wins power weapons will gain precision weapon control, players with no range have to run to get into cqb range for ar/pistol to contest dmr/nr + snipe, rocks. With dmr players have more leverage. in ar starts if you lose control of one, ar/magnum is trash and loses the rest. The starting fight is sloppy but once a team has the stronger advantage they sweep away the other teams advantages, thats halo, but once you die you spawn with a 10m max range, slow killtime capability and no precision that has no means to contest.
Are you telling me that the "good player" took some weapons and then proceeded to trash the other team and got the rest of precision weapons + power weapons? Are you telling me that the way Halo is designed, where you can only carry 2 different weapons, allowed that? That undeniably demonstrates that the skill matching is the issue. Where were the other players in the enemy team? Didn't they have another "good player" that could do the same? As much as I like DMR starts, these lies are getting annoying. There are more power weapons and you can also be more dynamic to outskill your opponents. Undoubtedly, players who gain map control or too many powerful weapons tend to forget about strategies and just shot mindlessly, in the majority of the times. However, if we're taking into consideration that theoretical situation (haven't even seen it in H2 SMG starts), you even admitted that while they would have to go through a large score deficit, they would eventually regain control and make it neutral again. That's the point: constant turns of power. Also, you're discussing as if we were talking about old auto starts, where you were left with things like an SMG, which could fill that "10 max range" role. This is not the case in Reach, again the Magnum is quite a decent weapon if used correctly (pacing, strafe, crouching...). I showed the Magnum variants because I don't deny it can be buffed to be even better (and can be tested afterwards to see if we end up with something more powerful than the DMR).

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no other shooter game spawns you with such horrible potential. At least quake has item abundance and fast movespeed. The romanticism is delusional. You self admit the reach pistol sucks, that doesn't make it admirable when precidion weapons are pickups with ammo as or more abundant than the pistol off-spawn. It has no range and your only advice for effectiveness is to not move and crouch. Not moving when you have no power is a death sentence. Most Reach 4v4 maps don't have hiding poditions, not ones safe from being collapsed on.
Other shooter games, like everyone seems to point out, are not relevant to the Halo nature. The moment the items you can carry are decreased and your move speed is slowed down, you can't compare them. I didn't say the Reach pistol sucked, just that it could use some kind of slight buff that decreases spread to allow it to compete at further ranges, where the DMRs/Needle Rifles (which you have access too) succed. On the other hand, not moving and crouching were my only advices because I'm tired of repeating the same arguments over and over. I can explain more of them if you want. Furthermore, most maps have a lot of hiding positions (Reflection, Powerhouse, Anchor 9, Battle Creek...), and if not tune them appropriately. Bad map design doesn't disappear with AR + Magnum starts, but neither does with spawning with a stronger than usual utility weapon.

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That "decent" utility weapon is not the Reach we have right now. Bloom is not going to be removed in Social (the place where we're talking about), at the very least it will be decreased even more (right now is at 85%), but in competitive I'd agree with you. The DMR with zero bloom would need both changes (regular zoom and slower rate of fire) to be on par with the rest of the sandbox. Otherwise, the DMR ends up being the superior weapon again. As for the statement of "with a DMR/Sniper in your hands you can shut out all other power weapons and keep teams zoned. I do this all the time. They cannot contest, even good players will struggle as the have no means to kill me", if it were true, the same would apply to DMR starts. Every player with a Sword or Rockets can shut down that alone DMR/Sniper player with the correct tactic/surprising. They have plenty of ways to combat you, and if not, those are not good players from my point of view. I can use those power weapons in DMR starts with a lot of players with them, why wouldn't I in a game where just one player has one of them?

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I can say the same for DMR starts; only in games where players don't know where spawn points or they don't know how to get the maximum potential of the DMR it doesn't affect the game. Comebacks are more reliable with DMR starts, of course, but they're more challenging and rewarding with a decent utility weapon that's more balanced: the Magnum.

At the end of the day, I'd like to say that I'm fond of the way DMR/BR balances the sandbox and player environment. This is perfect for competitive purposes or for easier tasks, and that's why the have a place in both, Social and Competitive. So, we're not trying to remove them, just give the ones who want (the old Reach players, who are a huge playerbase, or players that are new, find competitiveness in other playstyles, or want a more relaxed experience) an option in the Match Composer. Then, offer the same for the old auto starts (balanced or not, they were official gametypes and must be there for those who enjoy them). You can skip them if you don't want them. Doesn't affect you at all. Moreover, if you're going to point out population issues, I think the old Reach playerbase is enough. They're already hosting crowded custom games.
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