It is not trash - talk, 343i have delivered good content but it can't be ignored or not critized when they literally say they won't fix this.jonnyjonski wrote:All I'm seeing in this thread is nothing but trash talk against the devs. Also, just because it's still happening, doesn't mean the devs are "refusing" to do anything about it.
There isn’t a fix to it. Like someone pointed out, they can make sure full teams searching find other full teams but realistically that won’t happen as it doesn’t hold the population. The alternative is spawn flipping, which takes away a lot from games such as map control, positioning and the entire point of pushing out and playing. If you match a co ordinated team, you can’t stop call outs and no matter where you spawn, they’ll still slaughter your whole team. Halo has always been like this, having people spawn behind you and spray you in the back while you’re on a 35 kill streak is just as infuriating.Mikkhep93 wrote:It is not trash - talk, 343i have delivered good content but it can't be ignored or not critized when they literally say they won't fix this.jonnyjonski wrote:All I'm seeing in this thread is nothing but trash talk against the devs. Also, just because it's still happening, doesn't mean the devs are "refusing" to do anything about it.
I didn't play H:CE online on PC or Xbox LAN, but I did play ~5500 games of H2 and you definitely didn't spawn with Red team on Coagulation when you're on Blue.Helljumper RUSS wrote:CE and 2 have always had crap spawns, it's just part of the experience. It's not going to change now after 20 and 17 years, respectively.
Exactly... if players are using these designs flaws then it makes it hard for new players to learn from the experience if they can't play the game. It essentially feels like deal with basically being forced into a sort of non-optional afk state or be punished for quitting.Mikkhep93 wrote:Well I have to agree and disagree there.TheLegendary117 wrote:Spawn killing has been part of the game since the beginning. Its not considered cheating. Its considered map control. The players that spawn kill are likely the veteran players who have spent hundred if not thousands of hours playing. There's nothing to fix.ronnie42 wrote:Actually it's been said in the forums that Postums said "We will not take action against spawn trapping in Halo. That's how you play the game. Please do not submit tickets on this issue". Tell me how is this not refusing to do anything about this? Whether we agree on the matter or not is irrelevant. 343i have made it pretty clear on their views on this type of in-game behavior.jonnyjonski wrote:Also, just because it's still happening, doesn't mean the devs are "refusing" to do anything about it.
The game should of course allow skill to be used by the experienced players, however the very limited spawnsystem basically destroys any aspect of skill that the enemy team got as the only thing left to do is to line up and cover the few spawnpoints that your team will be forced to use. This is a problem, as it results in 70% of your team to quit and you be locked with no option for damage control, so you either stick with it and die over and over... or you leave and get a penalty. Which is quite unfortunate for my part as I experience "Host migration" that only affects me 5 times a day.
There is something to fix, definetely. If 343i are going to ignore this its a shame. Kinda breaks all fun if you find yourself on a team of randoms up against a coordinated team. So only a few things need to be changed:
1. Allow more spawnoptions away from the enemy.
2. Avoid full - party teams being matchmaked with a non party team.
Halo has its objectives implemented in the gamemode: slayer, capture flag or hill etc.Swade wrote:There isn’t a fix to it. Like someone pointed out, they can make sure full teams searching find other full teams but realistically that won’t happen as it doesn’t hold the population. The alternative is spawn flipping, which takes away a lot from games such as map control, positioning and the entire point of pushing out and playing. If you match a co ordinated team, you can’t stop call outs and no matter where you spawn, they’ll still slaughter your whole team. Halo has always been like this, having people spawn behind you and spray you in the back while you’re on a 35 kill streak is just as infuriating.Mikkhep93 wrote:It is not trash - talk, 343i have delivered good content but it can't be ignored or not critized when they literally say they won't fix this.jonnyjonski wrote:All I'm seeing in this thread is nothing but trash talk against the devs. Also, just because it's still happening, doesn't mean the devs are "refusing" to do anything about it.
I would suggest finding your own team to search with or find another game to play if it’s bothering you that much. This is harsh but it’s the truth. If you have any alternative suggestions on how to fix it, I’d like to know.
No it is not cheating, but it is more or less an extremely unfair way to play a game. You win the game by being the first to score all needed points, not by holding the entire map. Halo was designed to give both sides access to weapons to counterreact the enemy's assets, implemented there was a focus on equalizing the odds, balance the wage. I see its current state with the spawnproblem a contradiction to that; its a flaw. How can you wage its a good or fair game if you get killed the second you spawn, with no chance of pushing back? I agree that tactics should matter for the efficiency but come on... you should be allowed a chance to turn tide and if the team wastes that chance then its fair but if the team never even are allowed it then it is unbalanced.HC SOlO wrote:IMO, the only problem here is sbmm and population. The expectation that TMCC be the same as OG halo games is unrealistic given those issues. Map control is in fact the way you win a game. It is not cheating.
So I'm assuming you're playing 8v8 here. If there is only 3 left you can quit with no penalty. When it's 8v3 the spawn trap is going to be unbreakable, you're out gunned, there's no point staying in the game. Blame your team for quitting. Generally speaking spawn traps don't happen when all the players are in the game. It's possible I guess, but it's rare and very difficult. The spawn system, the number of spawns there are, that is not the problem here at all. There are usually 3-4 major spawn points in objective modes. So let's say there's 3-4 enemy players watching each spawn, because it's possible to watch 2 spawns at once in some cases. What the game often does to break spawn traps is that it overloads spawns. Meaning that all of your team will spawn in the same place together. The defending side should have a numbers advantage, because there are going to be guys on the other team watching spawn points, when no one is there. There wont be any chance for the spawn trappers to get their shields back, it'll be too fast paced, just one spawning after another, 8 in a row. It's too much, however, when people quit it changes things.Mikkhep93 wrote:This for facing off an entire party - team that just dominates the match and obliterates all on my team causing them to leave one after another until I have a total of 3 players on my team that is getting spawnkilled with an normalized expectancy of survival for a total of 4 seconds after spawn.
I see your point but the problem is really not quitters on my team, I don't quit myself because I spend like 10 minutes trying to find a new match.Rocketship47 wrote:So I'm assuming you're playing 8v8 here. If there is only 3 left you can quit with no penalty. When it's 8v3 the spawn trap is going to be unbreakable, you're out gunned, there's no point staying in the game. Blame your team for quitting. Generally speaking spawn traps don't happen when all the players are in the game. It's possible I guess, but it's rare and very difficult. The spawn system, the number of spawns there are, that is not the problem here at all. There are usually 3-4 major spawn points in objective modes. So let's say there's 3-4 enemy players watching each spawn, because it's possible to watch 2 spawns at once in some cases. What the game often does to break spawn traps is that it overloads spawns. Meaning that all of your team will spawn in the same place together. The defending side should have a numbers advantage, because there are going to be guys on the other team watching spawn points, when no one is there. There wont be any chance for the spawn trappers to get their shields back, it'll be too fast paced, just one spawning after another, 8 in a row. It's too much, however, when people quit it changes things.Mikkhep93 wrote:This for facing off an entire party - team that just dominates the match and obliterates all on my team causing them to leave one after another until I have a total of 3 players on my team that is getting spawnkilled with an normalized expectancy of survival for a total of 4 seconds after spawn.
The real problem here is the quitters. Or even the guys who hide to protect their K/d or whatever. I've seen guys who escape a spawn trap only to hide somewhere on the other side of the map. Meanwhile their teammates are getting destroyed, not helpful. Just shoot your gun, you don't need to get a kill, just do some damage so the next guy that spawns has a chance. If your strategy is to run and hide, you aren't doing your team any favors. AFKs can also contribute to the problem.
I'm sorry but I strongly disagree. Forcing the player to be unable to do anything as far as I'm concerned is cheating because it's a tactical advantage that a player is using to exploit a game design choice that forces certain players from being unable to do anything and it goes against the basic fundamentals of giving the player an equal footing. It makes no sense that the game dev's would think spawn camping is acceptable behaviour when the game dev's clearly tried to put enough different obstacles to attempt to avoid this.HC SOlO wrote:IMO, the only problem here is sbmm and population. The expectation that TMCC be the same as OG halo games is unrealistic given those issues. Map control is in fact the way you win a game. It is not cheating.
There is a counter: kill the enemies and take map control back.ronnie42 wrote:I'm sorry but I strongly disagree. Forcing the player to be unable to do anything as far as I'm concerned is cheating because it's a tactical advantage that a player is using to exploit a game design choice that forces certain players from being unable to do anything and it goes against the basic fundamentals of giving the player an equal footing. It makes no sense that the game dev's would think spawn camping is acceptable behaviour when the game dev's clearly tried to put enough different obstacles to attempt to avoid this.HC SOlO wrote:IMO, the only problem here is sbmm and population. The expectation that TMCC be the same as OG halo games is unrealistic given those issues. Map control is in fact the way you win a game. It is not cheating.
There is literally no counter in most cases when the spawn's are camped so most can't do anything. Map control has nothing to do with this...map control in most games is supposed to be about controlling weapon spawn's and defending objectives and not about seeing how quickly someone can instant kill someone as soon as they spawn....not only is this morally wrong it also fundamentally shows poor game design.
There's a problem here though. If you allow spawning on the other side of the map, killing a player may end up putting him in a better position. Suicides may become a viable strategy. If you spawn near the enemies flag, you get a touch on it for free, without having to do anything, just be lucky. It would be chaotic and random. Getting to the flag should take work. You should have to advance, either by sneaking by or killing anyone who stands in your way. Getting to the flag is something to be earned.Mikkhep93 wrote:I see your point but the problem is really not quitters on my team, I don't quit myself because I spend like 10 minutes trying to find a new match.Rocketship47 wrote:So I'm assuming you're playing 8v8 here. If there is only 3 left you can quit with no penalty. When it's 8v3 the spawn trap is going to be unbreakable, you're out gunned, there's no point staying in the game. Blame your team for quitting. Generally speaking spawn traps don't happen when all the players are in the game. It's possible I guess, but it's rare and very difficult. The spawn system, the number of spawns there are, that is not the problem here at all. There are usually 3-4 major spawn points in objective modes. So let's say there's 3-4 enemy players watching each spawn, because it's possible to watch 2 spawns at once in some cases. What the game often does to break spawn traps is that it overloads spawns. Meaning that all of your team will spawn in the same place together. The defending side should have a numbers advantage, because there are going to be guys on the other team watching spawn points, when no one is there. There wont be any chance for the spawn trappers to get their shields back, it'll be too fast paced, just one spawning after another, 8 in a row. It's too much, however, when people quit it changes things.Mikkhep93 wrote:This for facing off an entire party - team that just dominates the match and obliterates all on my team causing them to leave one after another until I have a total of 3 players on my team that is getting spawnkilled with an normalized expectancy of survival for a total of 4 seconds after spawn.
The real problem here is the quitters. Or even the guys who hide to protect their K/d or whatever. I've seen guys who escape a spawn trap only to hide somewhere on the other side of the map. Meanwhile their teammates are getting destroyed, not helpful. Just shoot your gun, you don't need to get a kill, just do some damage so the next guy that spawns has a chance. If your strategy is to run and hide, you aren't doing your team any favors. AFKs can also contribute to the problem.
The problem is literally the spawnsystem and how it is exposed when facing a coordinated team, normally the game initializes with 8v8, and it remains so for a good long while until people feel it is worthless to sit around and wait to be killed as soon as they spawn.
Coordinated teams will communicate and concentrate on destoying the other team's vehicles at first. Afterwards they sieze complete control when bringing all their heavy power to the spawn. Moving to a weapon used to fight back will already be taken by the coordinated team.
The loosing team's players will try to escape out of the pinch, naturally in order to break the cycle and reallocate another front but the game doesn't allow it. Spawning is too predictable. If all of the enemy team is stomping on your base an easy fix would be to just allow spawning on the opposite side of the map.
Once again...when the game's flaws are being exploited against a team that knows what there doing it can seem physically impossible to take do anything regardless of 'trying to take back the map'. It's mostly a problem on maps like Halo 2A Shrine that make the game unplayable. If it had been my 1st playthrough of Halo multiplayer then it would have put me off playing Halo. I'd like to think I'm a veteran when it comes to Halo since been playing for a long time but I feel sorry for the new players that have to deal with this frustrating experience.Sgt Rorschach wrote:There is a counter: kill the enemies and take map control back.ronnie42 wrote:HC SOlO wrote:
That’s an issue with Matchmaking, not spawn camping. Map control and spawn control have always been hyper-prevalent in the highest competitive levels of Halo, but that’s exactly where they should stay. The fact that you’re constantly made a victim of these tactics isn’t an issue with the tactics themselves, it’s an issue with 343 putting you and a team of people playing the game casually up against a team of people who clearly are not.ronnie42 wrote:Once again...when the game's flaws are being exploited against a team that knows what there doing it can seem physically impossible to take back the map. It's mostly a problem on maps like Halo 2A Shrine that make the game unplayable. If it had been my 1st playthrough of Halo multiplayer then it would have put me off playing Halo. I'd like to think I'm a veteran when it comes to Halo since been playing for a long time but I feel sorry for the new players that have to deal with this frustrating experience.Sgt Rorschach wrote:There is a counter: kill the enemies and take map control back.ronnie42 wrote:HC SOlO wrote:
Matchmaking has nothing to do with it. When a map design is used to exploit and kill players within 2-4 seconds as soon they spawn in every spawn location while they spawn with no way to dodge while getting shot from every direction instantly....explain to me how am I supposed to counter that? No I've played plenty of high level games online where it didn't lead to spawn trapping and if this is how the 'pros' do it then they clearly are not good at the game if they have to exploit a poor decision choice to stop the opposing team from being able to play. It's like you wouldn't tell the ball catcher to just stand still doing nothing while the runner makes it around the pitch for a full run.Sgt Rorschach wrote:That’s an issue with Matchmaking, not spawn camping. Map control and spawn control have always been hyper-prevalent in the highest competitive levels of Halo, but that’s exactly where they should stay. The fact that you’re constantly made a victim of these tactics isn’t an issue with the tactics themselves, it’s an issue with 343 putting you and a team of people playing the game casually up against a team of people who clearly are not.ronnie42 wrote:Once again...when the game's flaws are being exploited against a team that knows what there doing it can seem physically impossible to take back the map. It's mostly a problem on maps like Halo 2A Shrine that make the game unplayable. If it had been my 1st playthrough of Halo multiplayer then it would have put me off playing Halo. I'd like to think I'm a veteran when it comes to Halo since been playing for a long time but I feel sorry for the new players that have to deal with this frustrating experience.Sgt Rorschach wrote:There is a counter: kill the enemies and take map control back.ronnie42 wrote:HC SOlO wrote:
Given that you didn’t get my Dark Souls comparison, let me try this. You’re basically asking for the rules of Baseball to be changed because there’s no way for you to see, let alone even hit, a pitch coming from an MLB player. No one expects anyone playing casually to do that, and the issue doesn’t lie with the ball moving to fast, it’s with the genius who put you up against a professional.
Pushing out and gaining control is a massive part of slayer, it’s what allows you to actually do the slaying and gain the advantage. If they’re in your spawn, that unfortunately isn’t the spawn killers problem, it’s not cheating also. Your objective is to slay the enemy team as much as you can by any means. As I mentioned, the map control is vital and if you aren’t aware of this then it’s probably why you’re suffering. I’ve sat through spawn traps many times, it’s not nice I completely agree but it’s a part of the game. Like I mentioned, there isn’t a fix to it.Mikkhep93 wrote:Halo has its objectives implemented in the gamemode: slayer, capture flag or hill etc.Swade wrote:There isn’t a fix to it. Like someone pointed out, they can make sure full teams searching find other full teams but realistically that won’t happen as it doesn’t hold the population. The alternative is spawn flipping, which takes away a lot from games such as map control, positioning and the entire point of pushing out and playing. If you match a co ordinated team, you can’t stop call outs and no matter where you spawn, they’ll still slaughter your whole team. Halo has always been like this, having people spawn behind you and spray you in the back while you’re on a 35 kill streak is just as infuriating.Mikkhep93 wrote:It is not trash - talk, 343i have delivered good content but it can't be ignored or not critized when they literally say they won't fix this.jonnyjonski wrote:All I'm seeing in this thread is nothing but trash talk against the devs. Also, just because it's still happening, doesn't mean the devs are "refusing" to do anything about it.
I would suggest finding your own team to search with or find another game to play if it’s bothering you that much. This is harsh but it’s the truth. If you have any alternative suggestions on how to fix it, I’d like to know.
Its not a objective to push to the other side of the map, its just an unfair move that coordinated teams like to utilize in order to create a spawntrap. Literally its unhealthy to the sport of the game and it shows. People that recognize they will face a coordinated team drop out before the game even starts, some realize shortly after it has begun and quit so fast because they understand what is going to happen.
Coordinated teams will ensure all their assets on the map have a double - safety and will flank from possible directions, take all vehicles, weapons of worth, abilities and just hammer away.
Map control in itself is a problem as long as it remains the way it is. You can say it has always been like this before 343i came to the picture but it just baffles me how they ignore this and refuse to perform changes that will only benefit the players and improve the overall experience. If they can add new skins for weapons and vehicles, then they fo' sure can spend 25 minutes just adjusting some spawnmarkers on the maps.
You know I wish I could just find a team to go coordinated with, I am deep Halo fan, childhood memories and all that but I just don't have the time to play much on a daily basis. Finding people to play with is impossible with my timezone as literally no one I know from my region plays this game.
So my experience with Halo is being frequently spawntrapped and the infamous "Host migration - boot".
Not a great experience and I love this game so I play, rarely quit and once in a while I find a match not being dominated by coordinated teams, which is nice.
Spawn traps are only possible if one team is much better than the other. This should be obvious. You counter it before it happens, if you get kills, they wont be able to set it up.ronnie42 wrote:Matchmaking has nothing to do with it. When a map design is used to exploit and kill players within 2-4 seconds as soon they spawn in every spawn location while they spawn with no way to dodge while getting shot from every direction instantly....explain to me how am I supposed to counter that? No I've played plenty of high level games online where it didn't lead to spawn trapping and if this is how the 'pros' do it then they clearly are not good at the game if they have to exploit a poor decision choice to stop the opposing team from being able to play. It's like you wouldn't tell the ball catcher to just stand still doing nothing while the runner makes it around the pitch for a full run.Sgt Rorschach wrote:That’s an issue with Matchmaking, not spawn camping. Map control and spawn control have always been hyper-prevalent in the highest competitive levels of Halo, but that’s exactly where they should stay. The fact that you’re constantly made a victim of these tactics isn’t an issue with the tactics themselves, it’s an issue with 343 putting you and a team of people playing the game casually up against a team of people who clearly are not.ronnie42 wrote:Once again...when the game's flaws are being exploited against a team that knows what there doing it can seem physically impossible to take back the map. It's mostly a problem on maps like Halo 2A Shrine that make the game unplayable. If it had been my 1st playthrough of Halo multiplayer then it would have put me off playing Halo. I'd like to think I'm a veteran when it comes to Halo since been playing for a long time but I feel sorry for the new players that have to deal with this frustrating experience.Sgt Rorschach wrote:There is a counter: kill the enemies and take map control back.ronnie42 wrote:HC SOlO wrote:
Given that you didn’t get my Dark Souls comparison, let me try this. You’re basically asking for the rules of Baseball to be changed because there’s no way for you to see, let alone even hit, a pitch coming from an MLB player. No one expects anyone playing casually to do that, and the issue doesn’t lie with the ball moving to fast, it’s with the genius who put you up against a professional.
You're comparisons make no sense. Ok here's another example....it be like playing the normal rules of Baseballs then be told they have to put their hands behind their back for a few minutes. Whether the person being spawn killed is a pro or not is irrelevant because the player is not being given the chance to do anything. Just like you wouldn't tell players in Football/Rugby to just stand there while the opposing team scores.
With what? Assault rifles and bouncing grenades against two tanks and what ever else the enemy has captured? You won't even live long enough to empty one clip.Sgt Rorschach wrote:There is a counter: kill the enemies and take map control back.ronnie42 wrote:I'm sorry but I strongly disagree. Forcing the player to be unable to do anything as far as I'm concerned is cheating because it's a tactical advantage that a player is using to exploit a game design choice that forces certain players from being unable to do anything and it goes against the basic fundamentals of giving the player an equal footing. It makes no sense that the game dev's would think spawn camping is acceptable behaviour when the game dev's clearly tried to put enough different obstacles to attempt to avoid this.HC SOlO wrote:IMO, the only problem here is sbmm and population. The expectation that TMCC be the same as OG halo games is unrealistic given those issues. Map control is in fact the way you win a game. It is not cheating.
There is literally no counter in most cases when the spawn's are camped so most can't do anything. Map control has nothing to do with this...map control in most games is supposed to be about controlling weapon spawn's and defending objectives and not about seeing how quickly someone can instant kill someone as soon as they spawn....not only is this morally wrong it also fundamentally shows poor game design.
It's almost like you skimmed over what I said. Like I've been saying...I've been in match's where it has become physically impossible to counter. Skill can only get a player so far before being spawn trapped by people who seem to know exact spawn locations regardless of where they are to practically nearly instant kill. I've been playing for 2 decades I can tell the difference between casual/good players and I'm not going to pretend to be the best or worst but some of the stuff that happens in-game can be exploited to put others in positions where it can't be countered. Not all spawn camping is as simple as Griffball spawn camping because even that can be sort of countered.Rocketship47 wrote:Spawn traps are only possible if one team is much better than the other. This should be obvious. You counter it before it happens, if you get kills, they wont be able to set it up.ronnie42 wrote:Sgt Rorschach wrote:ronnie42 wrote:Once again...when the game's flaws are being exploited against a team that knows what there doing it can seem physically impossible to take back the map. It's mostly a problem on maps like Halo 2A Shrine that make the game unplayable. If it had been my 1st playthrough of Halo multiplayer then it would have put me off playing Halo. I'd like to think I'm a veteran when it comes to Halo since been playing for a long time but I feel sorry for the new players that have to deal with this frustrating experience.Sgt Rorschach wrote:There is a counter: kill the enemies and take map control back.ronnie42 wrote:HC SOlO wrote:
Better is a loose term, I mean I can accept failure and loosing and be impressed by the other team's players amd think, yes they are good but its a different thing this one.Rocketship47 wrote:Spawn traps are only possible if one team is much better than the other. This should be obvious. You counter it before it happens, if you get kills, they wont be able to set it up.ronnie42 wrote:Matchmaking has nothing to do with it. When a map design is used to exploit and kill players within 2-4 seconds as soon they spawn in every spawn location while they spawn with no way to dodge while getting shot from every direction instantly....explain to me how am I supposed to counter that? No I've played plenty of high level games online where it didn't lead to spawn trapping and if this is how the 'pros' do it then they clearly are not good at the game if they have to exploit a poor decision choice to stop the opposing team from being able to play. It's like you wouldn't tell the ball catcher to just stand still doing nothing while the runner makes it around the pitch for a full run.Sgt Rorschach wrote:That’s an issue with Matchmaking, not spawn camping. Map control and spawn control have always been hyper-prevalent in the highest competitive levels of Halo, but that’s exactly where they should stay. The fact that you’re constantly made a victim of these tactics isn’t an issue with the tactics themselves, it’s an issue with 343 putting you and a team of people playing the game casually up against a team of people who clearly are not.ronnie42 wrote:Once again...when the game's flaws are being exploited against a team that knows what there doing it can seem physically impossible to take back the map. It's mostly a problem on maps like Halo 2A Shrine that make the game unplayable. If it had been my 1st playthrough of Halo multiplayer then it would have put me off playing Halo. I'd like to think I'm a veteran when it comes to Halo since been playing for a long time but I feel sorry for the new players that have to deal with this frustrating experience.Sgt Rorschach wrote:There is a counter: kill the enemies and take map control back.ronnie42 wrote:HC SOlO wrote:
Given that you didn’t get my Dark Souls comparison, let me try this. You’re basically asking for the rules of Baseball to be changed because there’s no way for you to see, let alone even hit, a pitch coming from an MLB player. No one expects anyone playing casually to do that, and the issue doesn’t lie with the ball moving to fast, it’s with the genius who put you up against a professional.
You're comparisons make no sense. Ok here's another example....it be like playing the normal rules of Baseballs then be told they have to put their hands behind their back for a few minutes. Whether the person being spawn killed is a pro or not is irrelevant because the player is not being given the chance to do anything. Just like you wouldn't tell players in Football/Rugby to just stand there while the opposing team scores.
