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H3 Ranked Radar Double Team - Am I A Joke To You?

OP LChedda8

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Ok, I just read this thread and watched TommyKost's video on YT and I think I'm going against the tide for the first time regarding MCC community feedbacks.

Premise: Long time Halo 3 player (since 2008), long time original "Vanilla Doubles" player and firmly convinced that Doubles has always been among the most competitive playlists in all Halos. I grinded so much TD back in the days and matched the very best of all the playlist's runners. I had a ton of fun playing TD in the old Halo 3 era.

That to say that I'm full of nostalgia like all of you, but still I don't find your request of restoring Vanilla TD among Ranked Playlists any useful to the sake of MCC as of now, and I'll explain at the end of my post why this thread is even harmful.

So, reading the posts and watching the video, many things were said about this "MLG vs Vanilla", but I didn't find any of your reasons particularly relatable or logic. Heck, I couldn't even read *proper* reasons. So I'll make my point regarding the general arguments debated instead:

- Competitive play.
I state immediately again that, just like you, I think that Vanilla Doubles is one of the most competitive ways in the whole history of Halo online. As I said in the beginning, I lost count of the hours I spent playing it back in the days, facing the most experienced players of the playlist. It was very challenging to play against TD nerds, and I loved almost every game I played. Given this, I still think, now that I've been grinding Hardcore Doubles for a quite bit, that the competitiveness of MLG settings makes the latter more challenging. I think it's one of the few things shared by everyone in this community, like a 'Halo basics', the fundamentals. So, as a former (ex) TD-player, I find the MS 2v2 playlist more difficult and challenging, but this is NOT to say that Classic TD is not competitive, it's just to remark that HC settings make definitely an upper level as we all have always known. Deny this and you're ignoring one of the Halo multiplayer fundamentals, I'm sure you would be basically fooling yourself to think that. I mean, I can't forget how a TD tied game always ended in crouch camping at the 23rd kill in the Rocket tunnel of Foundry or in the Isolation underground bunkers waiting for the 2 enemies to come near you and your teammate to blast your last 2 rockets at their legs. I have never ever seen a MLG TD game where people were camping or not active playing, except for the match of the official HCS tournament where Roy and Flamewsword decided to camp on Pit for the last 10 seconds of the game. They were blew up by the enemies, in fact, because without the radar advantage they were not able to make camping tactics to work. Again, I still remark that the playstyle of the original TD was very skill demanding, but MLG is just more in every way since forever and was always regarded this way by everybody. Outbr'ing the opponent for the winning kill is far more competitive than waiting for him with a shotty in the sniper room of Cold Storage, even though nobody is ignoring the skill required to get in that position and to contend the power weapons.
But I'm sure you believe the same, since in Tommy's video nobody dared to say that classic settings were more competitive than Hardcore, in fact all the speakers only remarked that Vanilla TD "is a very competitive playlist", and I 100% agree with that. I just don't get how it could be an argument since there is already the MLG counterpart in activity. I would understand the argument if TD was simply removed entirely from the ranked games.
Also, maybe you all didn't notice the last update from 343. As much as I hate every single game/update/patch/breath of theirs, this time the competitively-social update is a big thing and a working one. I usually play with the most skillful friends the 2v2 MLG playlist, and with the lesser skilled the social 2v2 playlist. Recently with a friend, playing the latter, at first we were being matched to randoms with guests, getting our perfections and goosed the enemies, but the opponents we were finding were progressively stronger, until we started to get matched to very skillful players and we even lost quite a bit of the last matches due to lack of chemistry between us, fundamental to win in TD high. Now, since this system is working well, given all the feedbacks (incredible!), the distinction between Social and Competitive games shrunk another fair bit, since we know that MCC, compared to original games, could never be defined as "competitive", given a broken and unfinished rank system (lack of XP) and many other bugged features that annihilated most of the differences between Social and Ranked. That is to say that now you don't need a ranked playlist to get constantly matched to skillful/experienced players, so the competitive argument for a comeback of vanilla doubles falls off for me.

- Pro players and legends of the playlist. Population.
I stil have some friends on the list I used to play Classic TD with, and they have no problems to play MLG 2v2. The argument "with hardcore settings you made the TD legends flee" is flawed, because we all know that the TD lovers didn't quit because of MLG settings, but because all of the unbearable bugs this broken game still has. The part of people l know that used to play Doubles a ton and now quit, would come back instantly if the game servers, hit registration, melee registration, spawns and other stuff were all fixed. How can you even bring in the "competitive" argument if the games are won by the team that has the most players physically near the chosen server (aka East US 2) ? Until these bugs will be resolved, no "TD legend" that quit will ever come back and you know it.
People talked about Naded and Ninja running doubles, but maybe you're forgetting that the only time they ran Doubles consistently was on Halo 3 in 2014 where 90% of the playlists (expecially MLG that they always played) were completely dead, and they refused to hop onto H4 or H5. That was literally the only time that MLG pros ran doubles. Now, on the contrary, the presence of 2v2 MLG brang a LOT of Hardcore players into it, so much that while playing the MLG 2v2 playlist I regularly find most of the players I match on Team Hardcore! And given the fact that many of them only occasionally play 2v2, in multiple occasions I found in 20s 2v2 lobbies people from the 50s Hardcore lobbies! And that makes the playlist extremely more competitive (reference to the previous argument).
Another aspect regarding the population is that you're maybe ignoring that in the U.S. 343 is running the MS events with the MLG settings. Of course they put a competitive playlist with those settings! For the first time of MCC, an event is giving visibility back to Halo and we need that, as well as the playlist.
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I agree with the author bring back h3 doubles
As of typing this 5/7 ranked playlists are mlg settings (counting mlg ffa w radar).
- Team Arena - MS 2V2 - H2A HC -H2 HC
+ H2 Team slayer + H3 Team Slayer + H3 Team doubles + H2 team doubles. + H3 Team Snipers.
I'm confused. Could someone give me a quick list of differences between the current 2v2 and vanilla?
I'm confused. Could someone give me a quick list of differences between the current 2v2 and vanilla?
Basically vanilla 2v2 has radar, more map and game mode selections apposed to the very samey MLG settings for both game modes and maps, there is slightly increased damage on MLG settings to make the weapons, specifically the BR, more consistent, and you have an AR secondary in vanilla where as in the MLG settings you don't have a secondary. That's most of the changes off the top of my head.
Broey Broe wrote:
Basically vanilla 2v2 has radar, more map and game mode selections apposed to the very samey MLG settings for both game modes and maps, there is slightly increased damage on MLG settings to make the weapons, specifically the BR, more consistent, and you have an AR secondary in vanilla where as in the MLG settings you don't have a secondary. That's most of the changes off the top of my head.
Alright thanks. See, I can understand the players for wanting more maps and gametypes, but reverting back to radar and a slightly weaker BR should not be encouraged. A competitive 2v2 playlist should not have radar because it is essentially a crutch for players with poor map awareness. They should also keep the increased damage on the BR because, like you said, it makes gun battles more consistent. What I'm saying here is this thread really should not be clamoring for default doubles, but for the current doubles with more variety in maps and gametypes.
Broey Broe wrote:
Basically vanilla 2v2 has radar, more map and game mode selections apposed to the very samey MLG settings for both game modes and maps, there is slightly increased damage on MLG settings to make the weapons, specifically the BR, more consistent, and you have an AR secondary in vanilla where as in the MLG settings you don't have a secondary. That's most of the changes off the top of my head.
Alright thanks. See, I can understand the players for wanting more maps and gametypes, but reverting back to radar and a slightly weaker BR should not be encouraged. A competitive 2v2 playlist should not have radar because it is essentially a crutch for players with poor map awareness. They should also keep the increased damage on the BR because, like you said, it makes gun battles more consistent. What I'm saying here is this thread really should not be clamoring for default doubles, but for the current doubles with more variety in maps and gametypes.
I see what ya mean, but most of the map's that are in vanilla dubs probably won't work as well in hardcore dubs since while yes there is a radar, there is a lot more you need to take into account for on a lot more maps, and the radar is only bad if there isnt actual ranked restrictions in default dubs where if there wasn't, kids would be getting stomped on by like level 20's or above. The br being a bit more consistent with the increased damage would be nice, but I'm fine with or without it either way.
Ranked doubles and any ranked playlist in general is pointless without party based match making.

People searching in 2s matching solos breaks the purpose for a ranked playlist especially something teamwork heavy as 2s.

im all for ranked dubs BUT only if it’s the only playlist with party based matchmaking.(343 have made it clear that they don’t understand the purpose of a ranking system)
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I think that a big problem is how 343 is getting feedback; the way they are getting feedback now is biased in favor of the hardcore players. I think it is pretty obvious that people who have always been playing Halo for years and are diehard fans are more likely to be interested in the competitive scene and, in that case, more likely to be interested in the hardcore format (I'm not saying exclusively, just more likely). These people who have been following the competitive scene for years and have stuck with halo are also more likely to frequent sites like this and subscribe to the insider program, while the more casual players probably just want to jump into the game and may not have even ever gone on this site.

I know anecdotal evidence isn't the best, but my friends lean more on the casual side of the game and none of them have signed up for this site and maybe one out of half a dozen have signed up for the insider in preparation of the PC launch.

Having polls that are derived only from sites like this or only from the insider program leads to bias in the polling method that disregards the opinions of the casual players and, therefore, players who may be less interested in hardcore formats. Maybe if they could make an announcement for new polls when you open up MCC that direct to where to vote, that could help increase voter participation from those casual players (even if just a small amount).
As someone who has competed at a high level in Halo since 2005, I have little to no interest in MCC as it stands. However, I know that myself, as well as many of my currently disengaged friends, would come back and play lots of MCC if H3 radar dubz was reintroduced. Myself, SHADOWSTRIKE1, Goge7a, DN Prodigy... lots of longtime players would come back to go for that 50. And none of us care for MLG 2s.
This needs to make a return 11 years of radar 2v2 randomly removed! Good post @juror Number 8 I have many friends that would make a return too.
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