So after reading the November update I am sad to see that cries for a vanilla Reach experience landed on completely deaf ears. The article mentions efforts to bring the TU to invasion and even the campaign... In the article they even mention that the whole game was built around the bloom mechanic and state that without bloom many weapons loose their utility. Well guess what? Reducing the bloom also made many weapons loose their utility. I was hoping that it would be a choice to play on the TU settings or not, just another choice added into the plethora of options we can select for matchmaking, but surprise we don't really get a choice. They are even going to try to shove the TU settings into game types that they know can't work with it. I know vanilla Reach has some rough spots in the design, but the TU is such a large change that it damages a lot of the nice things about Reach too. The TU was made to make the game appeal to a group of players that enjoyed games like halo 2 and 3. But the MCC has halo 2 and 3 right there. There is no need to have the TU in Halo Reach.

The fact that there is no option to select vanilla settings is the most offensive thing about all this, we can choose almost anything we want in the MCC why can't we make a choice here?
Having vanilla and TU as a selectable option would mean you'd have to make two of every playlist which can take up valuable memory space and I think it would split the player base too much. I think having 85% bloom is a good compromise, but I wouldn't be against maybe adding a Slayer playlist which has vanilla settings.
I think what you fail to realize is that they only said they'd look into adding a type of TU setting to Invasion because fans just prefer TU over vanilla in almost every regard. What you also seemed to miss is that they said they probably won't add it to Invasion or Infection due to the game mode working better in vanilla settings and being balanced for that, and that campaign will never see TU settings.

I agree that for custom games at least vanilla settings would be awesome as an option, but I think splitting the Reach community into 3 sections by forcing every playlist to have both a TU and a non-TU mode would just be a little redundant. Its bad enough that H2, H3 and Reach all have 2 different rulesets pertaining to MLG/Hardcore and standard play, but to give Reach 3 different rulesets and sandboxes for matchmaking would get incredibly confusing and I don't think would benefit anyone but the small niche of players who prefer vanilla to TU (and make no mistake, you are in the minority there).

Maybe a rotating playlist can pop up once a month for vanilla settings? That's about as good of a compromise as I can imagine.

Out of curiosity though, what do you prefer about vanilla that makes it a better experience? For me, I miss sword clanging, but everything else about TU feels infinitely better, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts there.
I think what you fail to realize is that they only said they'd look into adding a type of TU setting to Invasion because fans just prefer TU over vanilla in almost every regard. What you also seemed to miss is that they said they probably won't add it to Invasion or Infection due to the game mode working better in vanilla settings and being balanced for that, and that campaign will never see TU settings.

I agree that for custom games at least vanilla settings would be awesome as an option, but I think splitting the Reach community into 2 sections by forcing every playlist to have both a TU and a non-TU mode would just be a little redundant. Its bad enough that H2, H3 and Reach all have 2 different rulesets pertaining to MLG/Hardcore and standard play, but to give Reach 3 different rulesets and sandboxes for matchmaking would get incredibly confusing and I don't think would benefit anyone but the small niche of players who prefer vanilla to TU (and make no mistake, you are in the minority there).

Maybe a rotating playlist can pop up once a month for vanilla settings? That's about as good of a compromise as I can imagine.

Out of curiosity though, what do you prefer about vanilla that makes it a better experience? For me, I miss sword clanging, but everything else about TU feels infinitely better, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts there.
Well in vanilla settings I can use literally any weapon in the sandbox and mostly do okay. I can even use the plasma repeater. In the TU playlist I find that many of the weapons become almost unusable. You really come to rely on the precision weapons more and engagements are pushed to a longer distance. I kind of like the close range combat and the TU really pushes against that. I felt that the weapon sandbox in vanilla reach worked really well. There were no weapons that were useless and there were plenty of good weapons that were all really different from one another. For example I liked that the focus rifle wasn't just a purple sniper rifle. It felt like every weapon had some good uses and if I was tired of using one weapon I could switch to another and still do okay. Another factor is the "randomness" of the gameplay didn't bother me. It might have been a little bit of a chance dice roll, but it was about controlling the odds. Pacing shots was a bit more reliable but in a pinch you could spam and sometimes it would work. I had developed really good timing with the pistol shots and while sometimes it would miss and sometimes a spamming pistol would win, overall I would win more often than not. Each weapon had a sort of sweet spot that changed depending on the circumstances. Armor lock was a bit annoying, but honestly I think the jetpack was a more powerful choice in armor abilities. I don't think armor lock needed the amount of nerfing it got.
Another factor is the "randomness" of the gameplay didn't bother me. It might have been a little bit of a chance dice roll, but it was about controlling the odds.
The randomness of Reach is the most frustrating part of the gameplay. There is no controlling the odds, you are either lucky or you are not. After playing vanilla Reach on the 360 I really wished that the TU playlists had a bigger population and 343 made the right call to use TU settings.
The standard TU with 85% bloom changes virtually nothing about the overall balance of the game, it only makes shooting precision weapons slightly less frustrating. The underpowered weapons were bad in vanilla Reach are still bad in TU Reach. The TTK of precision weapons was faster than the mostly automatic UP weapons before TU and the bloom was a non-issue at the effective range of those weapons anyway.

Even if we took it all the way to zero bloom, only the Magnum would get any meaningful boost which is the only reason I think Invasion is the only gametype or mode that should have any bloom but that's just me.

If anything now that they have fixed the health pack bug, underperforming weapons can get a boost with bleedthrough melee.

For good or ill, the Reach sandbox with the TU(85% bloom) was as balanced as vanilla was. So you are going to have to be more specific regarding the issues with the TU if you want to make a real case for vanilla.
WerepyreND wrote:
The standard TU with 85% bloom changes virtually nothing about the overall balance of the game, it only makes shooting precision weapons slightly less frustrating. The underpowered weapons were bad in vanilla Reach are still bad in TU Reach. The TTK of precision weapons was faster than the mostly automatic UP weapons before TU and the bloom was a non-issue at the effective range of those weapons anyway.
While this is somewhat true, its important to note that automatic weapons did inherently get worse after the update due to precision weapons being more consistent. TU put Reach's balance more in line with other Halo games, with precision weapons being the best but automatics still having their own place in the sandbox.

The only weapons I think was truly egregious post-update was the Needle Rifle. The existing bloom in TU still made pacing shots at longer ranges a thing you could w(and should) do with DMRs and especially pistols, which was a nice middle ground. The Needle Rifle, however, became an absolute laser beam at all ranges.

Do I think that one negative effect on the sandbox means the TU ruined Reach? No, not when every other change was so overwhelmingly positive ,tho sword clanging is something I dearly miss.

Its interesting seeing folks defend vanilla Reach. I like Bloom as a mechanic in games its in, even if I prefer not having bloom. Pacing shots can be satisfying. But vanilla Reach took it way too far and had bloom that was unforgivably strong, so TU was great just on that front alone. The changes to other things like armor abilities was an even greater change to the sandbox
WerepyreND wrote:
The standard TU with 85% bloom changes virtually nothing about the overall balance of the game, it only makes shooting precision weapons slightly less frustrating. The underpowered weapons were bad in vanilla Reach are still bad in TU Reach. The TTK of precision weapons was faster than the mostly automatic UP weapons before TU and the bloom was a non-issue at the effective range of those weapons anyway.

Even if we took it all the way to zero bloom, only the Magnum would get any meaningful boost which is the only reason I think Invasion is the only gametype or mode that should have any bloom but that's just me.

If anything now that they have fixed the health pack bug, underperforming weapons can get a boost with bleedthrough melee.

For good or ill, the Reach sandbox with the TU(85% bloom) was as balanced as vanilla was. So you are going to have to be more specific regarding the issues with the TU if you want to make a real case for vanilla.
While this is somewhat true, its important to note that automatic weapons did inherently get worse after the update due to precision weapons being more consistent. TU put Reach's balance more in line with other Halo games, with precision weapons being the best but automatics still having their own place in the sandbox.

The only weapons I think was truly egregious post-update was the Needle Rifle. The existing bloom in TU still made pacing shots at longer ranges a thing you could w(and should) do with DMRs and especially pistols, which was a nice middle ground. The Needle Rifle, however, became an absolute laser beam at all ranges.

Do I think that one negative effect on the sandbox means the TU ruined Reach? No, not when every other change was so overwhelmingly positive ,tho sword clanging is something I dearly miss.

Its interesting seeing folks defend vanilla Reach. I like Bloom as a mechanic in games its in, even if I prefer not having bloom. Pacing shots can be satisfying. But vanilla Reach took it way too far and had bloom that was unforgivably strong, so TU was great just on that front alone. The changes to other things like armor abilities was an even greater change to the sandbox
How did the automatics actually get worse though? They were never competing at mid-long range to begin with and their minimum time to kill was already slower than the precision weapons and bloom is a non-issue within the automatics effective range. So as far as Automatic vs Precision weapon balance goes in TU Reach nothing actually changes. Precision vs Precision fights are just more consistent. The bleedthrough changes at least give the autos some Halo 3 style clubbing power.

As far as the Needle Rifle goes the bloom was already practically non-existent in vanilla sans holding down the trigger. Given how slow the minimum ttk actually was to begin with the existing dynamic barely changes. If anything the TU just gives the Needle Rifle a unique selling point outside of being the Covenant DMR.

Regarding the sword the lack of sword clashing is a pity, but the Reach version was already inferior to the Halo 3 version and sword blocking with normal weapons was awful so honestly I think the trade-off in this instance is fair even I do want sword v sword clashing to remain.

The changes just are not as radical as the OP makes them out to be.
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
The standard TU with 85% bloom changes virtually nothing about the overall balance of the game, it only makes shooting precision weapons slightly less frustrating. The underpowered weapons were bad in vanilla Reach are still bad in TU Reach. The TTK of precision weapons was faster than the mostly automatic UP weapons before TU and the bloom was a non-issue at the effective range of those weapons anyway.

Even if we took it all the way to zero bloom, only the Magnum would get any meaningful boost which is the only reason I think Invasion is the only gametype or mode that should have any bloom but that's just me.

If anything now that they have fixed the health pack bug, underperforming weapons can get a boost with bleedthrough melee.

For good or ill, the Reach sandbox with the TU(85% bloom) was as balanced as vanilla was. So you are going to have to be more specific regarding the issues with the TU if you want to make a real case for vanilla.
While this is somewhat true, its important to note that automatic weapons did inherently get worse after the update due to precision weapons being more consistent. TU put Reach's balance more in line with other Halo games, with precision weapons being the best but automatics still having their own place in the sandbox.

The only weapons I think was truly egregious post-update was the Needle Rifle. The existing bloom in TU still made pacing shots at longer ranges a thing you could w(and should) do with DMRs and especially pistols, which was a nice middle ground. The Needle Rifle, however, became an absolute laser beam at all ranges.

Do I think that one negative effect on the sandbox means the TU ruined Reach? No, not when every other change was so overwhelmingly positive ,tho sword clanging is something I dearly miss.

Its interesting seeing folks defend vanilla Reach. I like Bloom as a mechanic in games its in, even if I prefer not having bloom. Pacing shots can be satisfying. But vanilla Reach took it way too far and had bloom that was unforgivably strong, so TU was great just on that front alone. The changes to other things like armor abilities was an even greater change to the sandbox
How did the automatics actually get worse though? They were never competing at mid-long range to begin with and their minimum time to kill was already slower than the precision weapons and bloom is a non-issue within the automatics effective range. So as far as Automatic vs Precision weapon balance goes in TU Reach nothing actually changes. Precision vs Precision fights are just more consistent. The bleedthrough changes at least give the autos some Halo 3 style clubbing power.

As far as the Needle Rifle goes the bloom was already practically non-existent in vanilla sans holding down the trigger. Given how slow the minimum ttk actually was to begin with the existing dynamic barely changes. If anything the TU just gives the Needle Rifle a unique selling point outside of being the Covenant DMR.

Regarding the sword the lack of sword clashing is a pity, but the Reach version was already inferior to the Halo 3 version and sword blocking with normal weapons was awful so honestly I think the trade-off in this instance is fair even I do want sword v sword clashing to remain.

The changes just are not as radical as the OP makes them out to be.
The more reliable and accurate precision weapons make engagement distances farther away making opportunities to use the close range weapons less likely. It's harder to rush in basically and you need to be in cover at further distances than originally planed when the game was designed. With the full bloom you can usually hit players across the maps, but it is really difficult to outright kill them. Your shots miss or you need to take time so that gives players time to get into cover. You move closer to fire faster and that brings you potentially within the range of automatics especially if the other player knows the map well enough and moves well enough.

Also if the changes weren't radical then there would be no problem with using them across all gametypes. The fact that the TU breaks invasion shows that it is a radical change to the game mechanics. Suddenly the Spartans having a pistol at the start renders the game unfair to the Elites. If it wasn't a radical change invasion would still be fine.
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
The standard TU with 85% bloom changes virtually nothing about the overall balance of the game, it only makes shooting precision weapons slightly less frustrating. The underpowered weapons were bad in vanilla Reach are still bad in TU Reach. The TTK of precision weapons was faster than the mostly automatic UP weapons before TU and the bloom was a non-issue at the effective range of those weapons anyway.

Even if we took it all the way to zero bloom, only the Magnum would get any meaningful boost which is the only reason I think Invasion is the only gametype or mode that should have any bloom but that's just me.

If anything now that they have fixed the health pack bug, underperforming weapons can get a boost with bleedthrough melee.

For good or ill, the Reach sandbox with the TU(85% bloom) was as balanced as vanilla was. So you are going to have to be more specific regarding the issues with the TU if you want to make a real case for vanilla.
While this is somewhat true, its important to note that automatic weapons did inherently get worse after the update due to precision weapons being more consistent. TU put Reach's balance more in line with other Halo games, with precision weapons being the best but automatics still having their own place in the sandbox.

The only weapons I think was truly egregious post-update was the Needle Rifle. The existing bloom in TU still made pacing shots at longer ranges a thing you could w(and should) do with DMRs and especially pistols, which was a nice middle ground. The Needle Rifle, however, became an absolute laser beam at all ranges.

Do I think that one negative effect on the sandbox means the TU ruined Reach? No, not when every other change was so overwhelmingly positive ,tho sword clanging is something I dearly miss.

Its interesting seeing folks defend vanilla Reach. I like Bloom as a mechanic in games its in, even if I prefer not having bloom. Pacing shots can be satisfying. But vanilla Reach took it way too far and had bloom that was unforgivably strong, so TU was great just on that front alone. The changes to other things like armor abilities was an even greater change to the sandbox
How did the automatics actually get worse though? They were never competing at mid-long range to begin with and their minimum time to kill was already slower than the precision weapons and bloom is a non-issue within the automatics effective range. So as far as Automatic vs Precision weapon balance goes in TU Reach nothing actually changes. Precision vs Precision fights are just more consistent. The bleedthrough changes at least give the autos some Halo 3 style clubbing power.

As far as the Needle Rifle goes the bloom was already practically non-existent in vanilla sans holding down the trigger. Given how slow the minimum ttk actually was to begin with the existing dynamic barely changes. If anything the TU just gives the Needle Rifle a unique selling point outside of being the Covenant DMR.

Regarding the sword the lack of sword clashing is a pity, but the Reach version was already inferior to the Halo 3 version and sword blocking with normal weapons was awful so honestly I think the trade-off in this instance is fair even I do want sword v sword clashing to remain.

The changes just are not as radical as the OP makes them out to be.
The more reliable and accurate precision weapons make engagement distances farther away making opportunities to use the close range weapons less likely. It's harder to rush in basically and you need to be in cover at further distances than originally planed when the game was designed. With the full bloom you can usually hit players across the maps, but it is really difficult to outright kill them. Your shots miss or you need to take time so that gives players time to get into cover. You move closer to fire faster and that brings you potentially within the range of automatics especially if the other player knows the map well enough and moves well enough.

Also if the changes weren't radical then there would be no problem with using them across all gametypes. The fact that the TU breaks invasion shows that it is a radical change to the game mechanics. Suddenly the Spartans having a pistol at the start renders the game unfair to the Elites. If it wasn't a radical change invasion would still be fine.
The incredibly slow TTK of Reach Precision weapons alone puts any notion of you getting melted to rest on its own. When you combine that with the even slower ttk of the auto weapons nothing actually changes. If you were in a position where a precision weapon could start peppering you before you are within your weapon's effective range that is on you and vanilla bloom wouldn't change that. If you are worried about getting melted before you can cross certain distances that is either a fault in your gameplay or in the map itself.

TU =/= No bloom. No bloom is the only scenario that would have any effect on Invasion balance, they could easily apply standard 85% TU across the board without anything meaningful changing.

Also Invasion was never well balanced in the first place but that is another can of worms.
I am good friends with 2 guys that lead test teams at Bungie for Reach, and I know for sure that they HATED bloom, and so did the teams they were leading, and they tried to have it removed before launch. They complained about it when the Beta came out, and were pushing for a change before launch, and we see how that went.

I have been curious to see how peoples opinions would differ, especially since it was around the Anniversary Update when the player base all seemed to stick with the Regular Playlists, despite the changes to Armor Lock and such.
Tell me one thing why rng (bloom) in a shooter should be good. As an european its really hard to win close 1v1 against NA because of the connection. So Imagine how it was with bloom back in the days, yeah you are right,nearly impossible
TU settings (85% reduced bloom, no sword block, bleed through shields, camo and armor lock nerfs) was the best thing to ever happen to Reach.
The fact that there is no option to select vanilla settings is the most offensive thing about all this, we can choose almost anything we want in the MCC why can't we make a choice here?
OG Reach suffered greatly by having duplicate playlists for vanilla and TU.
shirtssss wrote:
TU settings (85% reduced bloom, no sword block, bleed through shields, camo and armor lock nerfs) was the best thing to ever happen to Reach.
The fact that there is no option to select vanilla settings is the most offensive thing about all this, we can choose almost anything we want in the MCC why can't we make a choice here?
OG Reach suffered greatly by having duplicate playlists for vanilla and TU.
The vanilla playlist did just fine. Could find a game there any time I wanted. It's been a long while since I tried to get a game though. Kinda stopped playing when I got the haunted helmet. I think halo 5 was out by then.