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[Locked] MCC Insider: Match Composer/Aim Options Feedback

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I would really like to have more map options in the 1v1 and 4v4 Match Composer option. I suggest to add these ones:

- H2C (1v1): Elongation, Backwash. Their size is perfect for that gamemode.

In my opinion Desolation should be added into the 4v4 maps.

Also, I would like to have the SMG as a secondary in Halo 2: Anniversary in every mode, not only Slayer. It covers close range and offers the posibility to dual-wield since the beginning. I think that SMG starts shouldn't dissappear entirely in H2C/H2A Social either, although it's probably the right decision in Ranked playlists. SMG starts can give casual and competitive players a very tactical, enjoyable and varied experience, which fits the Social purpouse.

Those are my thoughts. I hope you consider them.
I would really like to have more map options in the 1v1 and 4v4 Match Composer option. I suggest to add these ones:

- H2C (1v1): Elongation, Backwash. Their size is perfect for that gamemode.

In my opinion Desolation should be added into the 4v4 maps.

Also, I would like to have the SMG as a secondary in Halo 2: Anniversary in every mode, not only Slayer. It covers close range and offers the posibility to dual-wield since the beginning. I think that SMG starts shouldn't dissappear entirely in H2C/H2A Social either, although it's probably the right decision in Ranked playlists. SMG starts can give casual and competitive players a very tactical, enjoyable and varied experience, which fits the Social purpouse.

Those are my thoughts. I hope you consider them.
Unlike Derelict, Desolation does not really work nor play well in H2, especially in a 4v4 environment. The map falls into the same trap as Tombstone; not big enough for 16 people, but much too large for 8 players. The BR bullets in H2 do not travel as far as the pistol shots do in CE, so games on Desolation become very slow and stalemate once both teams are up top and run out of ammo. You'll end up seeing people grab the Sentinel Beam which does not have enough damage output to clean up kills. On top of this, both overshields are on top of the map and there are no portals like in H1 to help the team spawning bottom get back control. There are many good 4v4 maps in H2C but Desolation is not one of them, in fact, most high level and competitive players truly never want to play that map in ranked matchmaking nor customs.
Also, I would like to have the SMG as a secondary in Halo 2: Anniversary in every mode, not only Slayer. It covers close range and offers the posibility to dual-wield since the beginning. I think that SMG starts shouldn't dissappear entirely in H2C/H2A Social either, although it's probably the right decision in Ranked playlists. SMG starts can give casual and competitive players a very tactical, enjoyable and varied experience, which fits the Social purpouse.
SMG starts give competitive players the kind of experience that makes them want to quit. Even Bungie admitted that SMG starts were an awful idea. We finally got rid of them. Let's not re-introduce that. In h2c, the smg is straight up useless, same goes for every dual wield-able weapon except for the plasma pistol. Lockout for example has two brs, a sword, a shotgun and a sniper rifle. On SMG starts it turns into 1 team getting control of those 5 things and then the game is over. In h2c, a power weapon only respawns when it is dropped. You have no chance of ever getting a power weapon on SMG spawns. Most of the maps have some fairly long lines of sights, with an smg that means that you have no chance to fight back. It's like making Halo 1 AR spawns only. There is no tactic, there is no joy and there certainly is no variety. Granted if 8 noobs play it would still be fun, but add one decent player in their and 4 of those noobs will have an awful experience. And keep in mind that social matches people randomly regardless of skill level. When SMG spawns were in, none of my friends wanted to play H2C because of how awful SMG spawns are. Now it's actually kind of fun for them with BR starts only.
Do with H2A what you will, but h2c smg starts is about as fun as plasma pistol starts in halo 1.
oGh L0RCH wrote:
Also, I would like to have the SMG as a secondary in Halo 2: Anniversary in every mode, not only Slayer. It covers close range and offers the posibility to dual-wield since the beginning. I think that SMG starts shouldn't dissappear entirely in H2C/H2A Social either, although it's probably the right decision in Ranked playlists. SMG starts can give casual and competitive players a very tactical, enjoyable and varied experience, which fits the Social purpouse.
SMG starts give competitive players the kind of experience that makes them want to quit. Even Bungie admitted that SMG starts were an awful idea. We finally got rid of them. Let's not re-introduce that. In h2c, the smg is straight up useless, same goes for every dual wield-able weapon except for the plasma pistol. Lockout for example has two brs, a sword, a shotgun and a sniper rifle. On SMG starts it turns into 1 team getting control of those 5 things and then the game is over. In h2c, a power weapon only respawns when it is dropped. You have no chance of ever getting a power weapon on SMG spawns. Most of the maps have some fairly long lines of sights, with an smg that means that you have no chance to fight back. It's like making Halo 1 AR spawns only. There is no tactic, there is no joy and there certainly is no variety. Granted if 8 noobs play it would still be fun, but add one decent player in their and 4 of those noobs will have an awful experience. And keep in mind that social matches people randomly regardless of skill level. When SMG spawns were in, none of my friends wanted to play H2C because of how awful SMG spawns are. Now it's actually kind of fun for them with BR starts only.
Do with H2A what you will, but h2c smg starts is about as fun as plasma pistol starts in halo 1.
But you're describing an awful situation were a team gets all of the power weapons. That's very unusual; each team often gets at least one power weapon, which can be used to fight back. Also, even if one team controls all of those guns, as soon as the other one kills at least one enemy then they will get a power weapon, so the fight starts again. That's rewarding and intense, mainly if you achieved that with a useless weapon (don't forget that you can combine it with many other weapons).

The most arguable thing is that you're describing the situation as if you were with an SMG the entire game. There are BR's in the map, aswell as Carbines, and lots of dual-wieldable guns. You can use them to steal power weapons from the enemies. You can't deny that's another experience which can be enjoyable too and even more tactical-based than BR starts. You have to think and play smartly. Smg was made useless to force players to discover and explore the maps and to use every weapon that were in them.

And talking about the bungie message... That was only a sentence in an informal and humoristic context.

I respect your opinion, because Br starts has many arguments. But you can't act as if Smg starts didn't.
I would really like to have more map options in the 1v1 and 4v4 Match Composer option. I suggest to add these ones:

- H2C (1v1): Elongation, Backwash. Their size is perfect for that gamemode.

In my opinion Desolation should be added into the 4v4 maps.

Also, I would like to have the SMG as a secondary in Halo 2: Anniversary in every mode, not only Slayer. It covers close range and offers the posibility to dual-wield since the beginning. I think that SMG starts shouldn't dissappear entirely in H2C/H2A Social either, although it's probably the right decision in Ranked playlists. SMG starts can give casual and competitive players a very tactical, enjoyable and varied experience, which fits the Social purpouse.

Those are my thoughts. I hope you consider them.
Unlike Derelict, Desolation does not really work nor play way in H2, especially in a 4v4 environment. The map falls into the same trap as Tombstone; not big enough for 16 people, but much too large for 8 players. The BR bullets in H2 do not travel as far as the pistol shots do in CE, so games on Desolation become very slow and stalemate once both teams are up top and run out of ammo. You'll end up seeing people grab the Sentinel Beam which does not have enough damage output to clean up kills. On top of this, both overshields are on top of the map and there are no portals like in H1 to help the team spawning bottom get back control. There are many good 4v4 maps in H2C but Desolation is not one of them, in fact, most high level and competitive players truly never want to play that map in ranked matchmaking nor customs.
I see your point. However, Desolation has many hidden places in the bottom that Derelict lacked. Also, there are gravitatory lifts in each side aswell as tunnels, which offer cover to go to the top. I think it is a map that give players more freedom, because there are another ways to go up, instead of just 4 symmetrical portals. I even believe there were some covenant boxes that could be used to climb up, but I'm not sure of that.

And talking about the BR range, it prevents people from shooting everyone constantly from the other side of the map. In my opinion, that's not a problem, just a different way to play the map (that's the reason why it,s not Derelict). It is focused in middle range, while Derelict is focused mainly in large range (with the Magnum). So players have a little more of time to get another weapons, such as the sword at the top (this were you see the mid-close range point). Maybe that gameplay style is not like the majority of people, but I'm sure many people can accept it and even enjoy it.

After saying my point of view, I agree that maybe 4v4 is small for that map. But I think that 5v5 is perfect for it and maybe that option could be added to the Match Composer (Halo 4, for example is played in 5v5).

What about Elongation and Backwash? In my opinion, they offer a unique experience with the moving boxes, which can be used tactically, and the fog, respectively. Also, they're very adjusted for 4v4.
No there isn't. I don't understand this diversity argument. You can not kill anyone with an SMG. Whether that person has a BR or a power weapon. You are screwed. There is no chance to fight back on long range. Most maps in h2c only have 2-3 carbines/brs (which is why most h3 maps are full of brs/carbines). It is not enjoyable. I have played Halo 2 for 15 years and I have not once thought to myself "boy am I glad that I spawned with an SMG, this is so much fun". Any dual wield combination is worse than a BR/Carbine or any power weapon. There is no playing smartly. With BR spawns you have to do that. The BR allows you to assist your teammates from anywhere on the map. It forces you to be aware of your teammates position and it also gives you a fighting chance against a power weapon. It's not rewarding to kill someone with an SMG, you can only do that when the other guy messes up, not because you outplayed him. The SMG was made useless because Bungie honestly had to rush Multiplayer and had very little time to test. H2s MP was their back up plan which became the main MP when they had to cancel their 32 vs 32 vision. Look at H2 1.0 and compare it to 1.1. They changed pretty much the entire game (melee damage, nade damage, weapon damage) because of how rushed the initial version was. They also overestimated the effectiveness of dual wielding. With your SMG, you are stuck hunting for a BR/Carbine and most guns you encounter are worthless to pick up. They even removed the stun from plasma weapons that was in CE to make them even more useless. I have introduced Halo 2 to countless people over the years and everyone refused to play SMG starts. And no I'm not referring to their silly ingame messages that also claimed that BXR was cheating. The designers just straight up admitted that the SMG as a spawning weapon was a major mistake.

Besides patching Halo Reach, one of the greatest things 343 has done is to get rid of SMG spawns. I do not want to go back to that hell ever again. On H2 PC, there is not a single SMG spawn server and it should be the same in MCC. In social, you often get one sided games due to no skill matching, SMGs only make that situation worse. Spawning with an SMG is an awful experience with no fun in it. It turns a fantastic game intro the most frustrating Halo experience of all time. Keep your AR spawns in H3 if you must, but SMG spawns in H2 are pretty close to unplayable.
oGh L0RCH wrote:
No there isn't. I don't understand this diversity argument. You can not kill anyone with an SMG. Whether that person has a BR or a power weapon. You are screwed. There is no chance to fight back on long range. Most maps in h2c only have 2-3 carbines/brs (which is why most h3 maps are full of brs/carbines). It is not enjoyable. I have played Halo 2 for 15 years and I have not once thought to myself "boy am I glad that I spawned with an SMG, this is so much fun". Any dual wield combination is worse than a BR/Carbine or any power weapon. There is no playing smartly. With BR spawns you have to do that. The BR allows you to assist your teammates from anywhere on the map. It forces you to be aware of your teammates position and it also gives you a fighting chance against a power weapon. It's not rewarding to kill someone with an SMG, you can only do that when the other guy messes up, not because you outplayed him. The SMG was made useless because Bungie honestly had to rush Multiplayer and had very little time to test. H2s MP was their back up plan which became the main MP when they had to cancel their 32 vs 32 vision. Look at H2 1.0 and compare it to 1.1. They changed pretty much the entire game (melee damage, nade damage, weapon damage) because of how rushed the initial version was. They also overestimated the effectiveness of dual wielding. With your SMG, you are stuck hunting for a BR/Carbine and most guns you encounter are worthless to pick up. They even removed the stun from plasma weapons that was in CE to make them even more useless. I have introduced Halo 2 to countless people over the years and everyone refused to play SMG starts. And no I'm not referring to their silly ingame messages that also claimed that BXR was cheating. The designers just straight up admitted that the SMG as a spawning weapon was a major mistake.

Besides patching Halo Reach, one of the greatest things 343 has done is to get rid of SMG spawns. I do not want to go back to that hell ever again. On H2 PC, there is not a single SMG spawn server and it should be the same in MCC. In social, you often get one sided games due to no skill matching, SMGs only make that situation worse. Spawning with an SMG is an awful experience with no fun in it. It turns a fantastic game intro the most frustrating Halo experience of all time. Keep your AR spawns in H3 if you must, but SMG spawns in H2 are pretty close to unplayable.
It is not impossible in any way. You can just shoot a bit and then melee and your enemy is dead. Get near your opponent, combine your SMG with a Plasma Rifle or a Magnum and that's it.

Also, you described a situation before were the enemies had all of the power weapons. If they have them, they cannot have all of the BR's and Carbines too, so you can use them to fight back. And as soon as you kill one of them, that situation dissappear. If you think dual SMGs or any other combination is worse than a BR in close to mid range, I don't think you're using them properly.

I agree that the BR lets you assist a teammate from anywhere, but that breaks map design and it turns into a single weapon game with no range limit. I have my opinion, you have yours. Many people think like me and like you, even if we're the minority there's no reason to completely ignore us. If that's the case, make it 30% SMG starts and 70% BR starts and then both sides of the community will be satisfied.

Also, for long range maps it's ok to remove Smg starts, but to have Br starts in the close ones is non sense. You can't even find a suitable cover that doesn't get exploited from an angle. Think of Midship.
oGh L0RCH wrote:
-snip-
Thank you for having actual experience in the game and basic common sense. Pretty much said exactly what I was going to.
I would really like to have more map options in the 1v1 and 4v4 Match Composer option. I suggest to add these ones:

- H2C (1v1): Elongation, Backwash. Their size is perfect for that gamemode.

In my opinion Desolation should be added into the 4v4 maps.

Also, I would like to have the SMG as a secondary in Halo 2: Anniversary in every mode, not only Slayer. It covers close range and offers the posibility to dual-wield since the beginning. I think that SMG starts shouldn't dissappear entirely in H2C/H2A Social either, although it's probably the right decision in Ranked playlists. SMG starts can give casual and competitive players a very tactical, enjoyable and varied experience, which fits the Social purpouse.

Those are my thoughts. I hope you consider them.
Unlike Derelict, Desolation does not really work nor play well in H2, especially in a 4v4 environment. The map falls into the same trap as Tombstone; not big enough for 16 people, but much too large for 8 players. The BR bullets in H2 do not travel as far as the pistol shots do in CE, so games on Desolation become very slow and stalemate once both teams are up top and run out of ammo. You'll end up seeing people grab the Sentinel Beam which does not have enough damage output to clean up kills. On top of this, both overshields are on top of the map and there are no portals like in H1 to help the team spawning bottom get back control. There are many good 4v4 maps in H2C but Desolation is not one of them, in fact, most high level and competitive players truly never want to play that map in ranked matchmaking nor customs.
I second this. I am not a fan of Tombstone in H2. Like you said, it's just too big of a map for 4v4 and the BR spread is ineffective at longer distances where in HCE the pistol was serviceable. Is Desolation even in any playlists? I don't think it is, or at least I've never had it come up.
Think of Midship? That map was sooo bad with Plasma Rifle spawns. Midship FFA with BR spawn is probably the single most popular gametype/map combination in Halo 2 history. A BR 4 shot kills you before your double smgs will, that's a fact. By the time you shoot melee someone (which in h2 would require you to kill all the shields before meleeing to get a kill, given that there is no bleed through) they have BXRd you 3 times over. They can't have power weapons + brs? Why not? You can have two guns in Halo. Even if you get a BR, you have one chance to fight against a power weapon. If you fail, you are done. The BR takes times to resapwn and you are stuck with an SMG that gives you 0 chance. The BR does not break map design, the SMG does. Even on midship: When you spawn with an smg and someone shoots at you from top pink or any of the bases, you have no way to fight back. If it's more then one person team shooting you, you are dead before you can move anywhere. With the BR you can fight back. If anything the BR makes maps playable. I don't think any decent player will be satisfied with 1/3 of his games being unplayable. It will only make quiting worse. You are entitled to your own opinion of course, but SMG spawns are so bad that I will fight them any chance I can. I played enough awful games of SMG starts in my life.CE-H3 play best when you spawn with a utility weapon. Yes Halo is an arena shooter, but the quake concept of spawning with a crappy gun does not work due to the far lower movement speed, the lack of armor/health stacking and the longer respawn times of weapons. Halo is plays best on utility weapon spawns, everything else might be ok at the lowest level of plays, but ruins the game when even 1 player in the game knows what they are doing.
-snip-
I see your point. However, Desolation has many hidden places in the bottom that Derelict lacked. Also, there are gravitatory lifts in each side aswell as tunnels, which offer cover to go to the top. I think it is a map that give players more freedom, because there are another ways to go up, instead of just 4 symmetrical portals. I even believe there were some covenant boxes that could be used to climb up, but I'm not sure of that.

And talking about the BR range, it prevents people from shooting everyone constantly from the other side of the map. In my opinion, that's not a problem, just a different way to play the map (that's the reason why it,s not Derelict). It is focused in middle range, while Derelict is focused mainly in large range (with the Magnum). So players have a little more of time to get another weapons, such as the sword at the top (this were you see the mid-close range point). Maybe that gameplay style is not like the majority of people, but I'm sure many people can accept it and even enjoy it.

After saying my point of view, I agree that maybe 4v4 is small for that map. But I think that 5v5 is perfect for it and maybe that option could be added to the Match Composer (Halo 4, for example is played in 5v5).

What about Elongation and Backwash? In my opinion, they offer a unique experience with the moving boxes, which can be used tactically, and the fog, respectively. Also, they're very adjusted for 4v4.
In a game with decent players, those little hiding spots are just going to get you easily killed and you'll end up spawning your teammates on bottom so that isn't a viable strategy. The gravity lifts make a loud noise when you use them and since they put you in a floaty arc towards the top, that's another guaranteed way to die. Therefore those two tunnels are the only somewhat safe option to get top control again. Too bad too only one person can fit through them at a time and they are extremely easy to nade. And no you cannot jump from a purple box to the top, the distance is too great. If you want to talk about maps that offer player freedom, there are a plethora of other maps in Halo 2 that do a much better job of it.

It's not about enjoying a different style of play, the map is just an improperly scaled remake. It is not so much about cross mapping someone so much as it's about being able to reliable put full shots in the enemy team to stop their movements as well as cover your teammates. You want 5v5 on Desolation? Sure, that might work in theory, except in the 11 years the map has been out, I haven't seen anyone do that probably because it's silly and counter productive Halo 2's gameplay and goal. The map eliminates the need for a team to push anywhere and there's a reason it isn't played in tournament, there's a reason it isn't played in customs, and there's a reason H2 players dread having to play on it in ranked matchmaking.

Elongation and Backwash huh? Oh boy...well I have never played these maps in a 1v1 setting so I cannot speak on how poor or fair they play, however these maps are god-awful for 4v4. Doesn't matter if it's Slayer or Objective, most hardcore or competitive H2 players detest these maps. The fog in Backwash, combined with the facts that you cannot spawn with grenades, pretty much voids it as an nonviable option for a balanced match. And Elongation is another horrid remake with very little merit or value in 4v4 games. The map is a headache; the only thing good to ever come out of it was in 2005 when Zyos got splattered from a box. You have to understand that the community playtested these maps for hundreds of hours, sometimes with money of the line, to help determine how good a map was. If you want to play 1v1 in a fair environment where the other person can't easily snowball you with zero hope of making a comeback, then play Lockout, Midship, or Wizard. If you want better experiences in 4v4, well a decade ago there was an entire pro circuit that figured out which gametypes and map combinations work and don't work.
I would really like to have more map options in the 1v1 and 4v4 Match Composer option. I suggest to add these ones:

- H2C (1v1): Elongation, Backwash. Their size is perfect for that gamemode.

In my opinion Desolation should be added into the 4v4 maps.

Also, I would like to have the SMG as a secondary in Halo 2: Anniversary in every mode, not only Slayer. It covers close range and offers the posibility to dual-wield since the beginning. I think that SMG starts shouldn't dissappear entirely in H2C/H2A Social either, although it's probably the right decision in Ranked playlists. SMG starts can give casual and competitive players a very tactical, enjoyable and varied experience, which fits the Social purpouse.

Those are my thoughts. I hope you consider them.
Unlike Derelict, Desolation does not really work nor play well in H2, especially in a 4v4 environment. The map falls into the same trap as Tombstone; not big enough for 16 people, but much too large for 8 players. The BR bullets in H2 do not travel as far as the pistol shots do in CE, so games on Desolation become very slow and stalemate once both teams are up top and run out of ammo. You'll end up seeing people grab the Sentinel Beam which does not have enough damage output to clean up kills. On top of this, both overshields are on top of the map and there are no portals like in H1 to help the team spawning bottom get back control. There are many good 4v4 maps in H2C but Desolation is not one of them, in fact, most high level and competitive players truly never want to play that map in ranked matchmaking nor customs.
I second this. I am not a fan of Tombstone in H2. Like you said, it's just too big of a map for 4v4 and the BR spread is ineffective at longer distances where in HCE the pistol was serviceable. Is Desolation even in any playlists? I don't think it is, or at least I've never had it come up.
Desolation is in H2C Team Arena and it was more or less common before.

I see your point like I stated before, but I think it can offer ways to play that weren't in Derelict or in Hang Em High. For example, there is more cover and they focus more in mid range than in long range. Also, talking about Desolation, there are another methods to go to the top instead of only 4 portals (tunnels, covenant ammo boxes, gravitatory lifts...), and there are new hidden places. You can see the reduction of the range when you see the sword at the center, and the places where Overshields are offer equal chances to both sides of getting one of them. It just plays differently than its predecessor, because it changed the experience.

The same happens with Tombstone. In this map they added more cover, aswell as holes, lifts, ways to jump... If the BR had the CE pistol range, those new elements would be useless. In general, H2C maps are more focused in mid combat.

I think it is just people personal preferences. But at least they should be added into the map list.
BxSouIjah posted a wonderful summary of why Desolation/Tomb Stone are awful remakes. GeneralSnow2003 it seems to me like you started playing H2 when MCC came out and that's perfectly fine. In fact I am glad that new people come in and enjoy the game I have been loving for over a decade now. But please keep in mind that there are those of us who have spent countless hours playing h2c and every single map was tested extensively. We spent thousands of hours playing on SMG spawns (thanks Bungie) and found out that BR spawns play better in every single way. The same goes for maps. When Tombstone and Desolation came out in 07, everyone spent countless hours playing them in customs and matchmaking to figure out if they could be used during the final season of the MLG h2 circuit and we came to the conclusion that they play like crap for competitive play. I would personally be fine with seeing them in the composer since maps like Backwash and Elongation aren't any better but are still in there. With h2c hardcore getting the cut, h2c arena will be THE place to play h2c competitively, so the maps and gametypes should reflect that.

As for 1v1, Warlock is the best map for that. But Lockout is by far the most popular 1v1 map. Midship also plays pretty well for 1v1. Everything else will be rough.
oGh L0RCH wrote:
-snip-
It is not impossible in any way. You can just shoot a bit and then melee and your enemy is dead. Get near your opponent, combine your SMG with a Plasma Rifle or a Magnum and that's it.

Also, you described a situation before were the enemies had all of the power weapons. If they have them, they cannot have all of the BR's and Carbines too, so you can use them to fight back. And as soon as you kill one of them, that situation dissappear. If you think dual SMGs or any other combination is worse than a BR in close to mid range, I don't think you're using them properly.

I agree that the BR lets you assist a teammate from anywhere, but that breaks map design and it turns into a single weapon game with no range limit. I have my opinion, you have yours. Many people think like me and like you, even if we're the minority there's no reason to completely ignore us. If that's the case, make it 30% SMG starts and 70% BR starts and then both sides of the community will be satisfied.

Also, for long range maps it's ok to remove Smg starts, but to have Br starts in the close ones is non sense. You can't even find a suitable cover that doesn't get exploited from an angle. Think of Midship.
Maybe not 100% impossible but it is highly unlikely that you will retake map, power weapon, or power up control with SMG starts once the other team has the aforementioned. And it is a little laughable saying that all you have to do is get close to an opponent, shoot and melee. That might works against bots and the absolute lowest level of players, but against decent or seasoned H2 people, you will not get close enough to spray n pray. That's the essence of having map control, the team without it doesn't gain position for free anymore. The scenarios you're describing, don't actually exist in classic Halo.

And yes 4 players on the opposing team can have all the BRs, Carbines, and power weapons on most H2 maps with SMG starts. Each player can hold 2 weapons, and since most maps only have one or two Battle Rifles at most, that leaves 6 open slots for the sniper, rockets, sword, sniper, plasma pistol, carbine, etc. One of the unique mechanics in Halo 2 is that a power weapon will not spawn again if a player is alive and holding the gun, even if the ammo count is empty.

Also L0rch is correct, any combination of dual wielding in H2 will lose to 4 BR shots at mid range every single time. The time to kill is too fast, although your aim has to be on point and the last shot has to be a headshot. The only time dual wielding wins the engagement is if it is super close quarters; but then I'll probably just BXR or BXB you instead.

"BR lets you assist a teammate from anywhere, but that breaks map design and it turns into a single weapon game with no range limit."

Alright let's dissect this one and explain why it is completely false. In H2 you actually cannot assist your teammate from anywhere on the map, obviously not on the larger ones, but even on the smaller competitive maps there are walls, barriers, obstacles, and geometry that all affect lines of sight. A good player with proper positioning skills and movement will get many assists, but to speak as if a person with a BR can run around a map in the open just shooting everyone, just isn't how real mid to high level matches of Halo 2 play out because you will be punished and die quickly. I feel like your statement ignores just how useful the Sniper, Rockets, Sword, Shotgun, and Plasma Pistol all are in H2. Also the BR has a severe range limit, not as bad as the H3 BR but certainty much shorter than the CE pistol, so that is incorrect. In you think you die very often to a BR from far away, well....stop standing still and start fighting back.

And saying that it breaks map design is just a poorly researched opinion. If that were the case, why would thousands of people have traveled to compete in tournaments with BR start settings? Why would tens of thousands of people watch them play MLG variants on live stream and TV? Why would we still play the game the same way competitively today? It is because utility weapon starts make the game, not break it.

"Br starts in the close ones is non sense. You can't even find a suitable cover that doesn't get exploited from an angle. Think of Midship."

Again this statement is purely ignorant and painfully oblivious to how the game plays in the real world. BR starts work beautifully on small and medium sized maps. There are tons of places to duck and find cover, and getting the right angel involves risk to move to a different position or be out in the open. It's pretty clear you have the most bottom of the barrel knowledge and experience in Halo 2 so please, please try to educate yourself and play more serious matches or watch higher level gameplay to gain an understanding of how the game works. It's hard to take your posts with any sense of credibility when you spout nonsense for a low effort discussion.
oGh L0RCH wrote:
Maybe not 100% impossible but it is highly unlikely that you will retake map, power weapon, or power up control with SMG starts once the other team has the aforementioned. And it is a little laughable saying that all you have to do is get close to an opponent, shoot and melee. That might works against bots and the absolute lowest level of players, but against decent or seasoned H2 people, you will not get close enough to spray n pray. That's the essence of having map control, the team without it doesn't gain position for free anymore. The scenarios you're describing, don't actually exist in classic Halo.

And yes 4 players on the opposing team can have all the BRs, Carbines, and power weapons on most H2 maps with SMG starts. Each player can hold 2 weapons, and since most maps only have one or two Battle Rifles at most, that leaves 6 open slots for the sniper, rockets, sword, sniper, plasma pistol, carbine, etc. One of the unique mechanics in Halo 2 is that a power weapon will not spawn again if a player is alive and holding the gun, even if the ammo count is empty.

Also L0rch is correct, any combination of dual wielding in H2 will lose to 4 BR shots at mid range every single time. The time to kill is too fast, although your aim has to be on point and the last shot has to be a headshot. The only time dual wielding wins the engagement is if it is super close quarters; but then I'll probably just BXR or BXB you instead.

"BR lets you assist a teammate from anywhere, but that breaks map design and it turns into a single weapon game with no range limit."

Alright let's dissect this one and explain why it is completely false. In H2 you actually cannot assist your teammate from anywhere on the map, obviously not on the larger ones, but even on the smaller competitive maps there are walls, barriers, obstacles, and geometry that all affect lines of sight. A good player with proper positioning skills and movement will get many assists, but to speak as if a person with a BR can run around a map in the open just shooting everyone, just isn't how real mid to high level matches of Halo 2 play out because you will be punished and die quickly. I feel like your statement ignores just how useful the Sniper, Rockets, Sword, Shotgun, and Plasma Pistol all are in H2. Also the BR has a severe range limit, not as bad as the H3 BR but certainty much shorter than the CE pistol, so that is incorrect. In you think you die very often to a BR from far away, well....stop standing still and start fighting back.

And saying that it breaks map design is just a poorly researched opinion. If that were the case, why would thousands of people have traveled to compete in tournaments with BR start settings? Why would tens of thousands of people watch them play MLG variants on live stream and TV? Why would we still play the game the same way competitively today? It is because utility weapon starts make the game, not break it.

"Br starts in the close ones is non sense. You can't even find a suitable cover that doesn't get exploited from an angle. Think of Midship."

Again this statement is purely ignorant and painfully oblivious to how the game plays in the real world. BR starts work beautifully on small and medium sized maps. There are tons of places to duck and find cover, and getting the right angel involves risk to move to a different position or be out in the open. It's pretty clear you have the most bottom of the barrel knowledge and experience in Halo 2 so please, please try to educate yourself and play more serious matches or watch higher level gameplay to gain an understanding of how the game works. It's hard to take your posts with any sense of credibility when you spout nonsense for a low effort discussion.
Well, it's logical I don't have all of the knowledge and experience in Halo 2 Classic, but it's just my point of view since I started playing. Obviously I can't compare with you in that aspect.

However, I don't think that people who play Social games have that amazing skill every time. Those players usually join that playlist to get entertainment so in my opinion you don't need and won't find that kind of skill there. As you perfectly described, those are professional ways to play the game in ranked playlists, for example, the BR tricks to beat dual weapons in close range. The majority of people (common or decent) don't know that or even consider them fair, so they're not a problem in that area. They just offer another way to play the game, more relaxed and varied. I have never suggested to include SMG starts in the ranked mode, and if that's the case, I apologize because now I understand your point.

Also, you're always referring to that scenario where one team gets all of the power weapons and even the headshot ones. I've not seen that ever, in Social nor ranked, even if one team were unexperienced. You can always get at least one power weapon, a carbine, a BR, or in the worst case, a dual-wieldable weapon to combine with your SMG. It might be difficult, but with that gun you can fight back and compete for the enemy better weapons. That's intense and rewarding when you achieve to do it, however if there's no chance then the teams are completely unbalanced. Then the multiplayer matching should improve in pretty much every way, and it's the main issue.

In my opinion, most of players can't control all angles when you're starting with a BR, unless they're so prepared and experienced like you said. That's easily seen when you're shooting someone in Ivory Tower at the sniper place and suddenly a player manages to kills you from the other side of the map. And that situation replicates again and again (for example, in the round map that has a sword in the center and has 4 towers, which I don't remember its name), just in different ways since you can't control all ranges and weak points all the time. That's what I call map design breaking, because you shouldn't be destroying someone from that range before at least getting the proper weapon (which forces you to move around while paying attention to the enemies, and requires you to make an strategy). It is just not as often as I described when its SMG starts, due to the map only having 2-3 BRs and Carbines and the power weapons.

Now talking about the maps. I understand that you've tested them in competitive gameplay and I appreciate your effort, but which is the problem of having them in Social? As I stated before, you don't need that kind of skill and people who play that way usually wants to get fun and enjoyable moments. I've played ranked lots of times, and maybe they doesn't fit there well, paired with the SMG starts. But let's try them in Social. Isn't it the purpouse of Match Composer? Everyone should have a way to enjoy what they like.
Match Composer:
I'm wondering why the option Teamsize: "ANY" is not available?
*sigh* Please understand GeneralSnow that SMG spawns are the kind of experience that makes any of us want to quit instantly. It only makes it worse for lower skilled player to face better players. And yes social is that: Get matched with anyone. Ranked is what you need to play to get players on your skill level. You are asking people who like to eat a nice steak to eat dog food 1/3 of the time. Maybe BxSouljah has the patience to take apart your post again and explain to you the horror you are proposing, but I'm done. Please understand that you are asking to turn the game we love into straight garbage. Yes there'll always be ranked for players like us, but please understand that having ranks also makes it harder to find games. That's where social comes in, it helps you play while you wait for the ranked playlist to be populated at your level. If SMG starts are back in, none of my friends (who are super casual h2 players) will want me to include h2 in our composer settings. They can't really use button glitches, they don't know the maps inside out, but they hate playing on SMG spawns. I guess having SMG Slayer be a separate composer option from BR Slayer might be an option, but that would only fragment the player base unnecessarily. AR spawns might work okish in H3, but just as CE plays best on Pistol + AR starts, H2 plays best on BR starts. Regardless of skill level. You are the first person I have ever met who actually wants to play on SMG spawns. Everyone else refuses to play it. Even the people who made the game say that you shouldn't play on SMG spawns.

On topic:
I just downloaded the newest version of the insider build and there is still no custom game option. How do you expect me to test the aiming changes? Let's be real, it was almost impossible to find games during the last play sessions, it's not gonna be better when you announce the new one 2 days in advance. I reported that there was no way to get the same vertical sensitivity in halo ce that you'd get by putting it on 10 in the current retail build on day 1 of testing. 10 on insider was so slow that it felt like 3. Horizontal was fine. I have not been able to play Halo CE since any of the Insider patches to see if it was fixed. If that bug is still in when the patch launches, Halo CE will become unplayable for me. If there was a custom game option I could have already tested it.
oGh L0RCH wrote:
*sigh* Please understand GeneralSnow that SMG spawns are the kind of experience that makes any of us want to quit instantly. It only makes it worse for lower skilled player to face better players. And yes social is that: Get matched with anyone. Ranked is what you need to play to get players on your skill level. You are asking people who like to eat a nice steak to eat dog food 1/3 of the time. Maybe BxSouljah has the patience to take apart your post again and explain to you the horror you are proposing, but I'm done. Please understand that you are asking to turn the game we love into straight garbage. Yes there'll always be ranked for players like us, but please understand that having ranks also makes it harder to find games. That's where social comes in, it helps you play while you wait for the ranked playlist to be populated at your level. If SMG starts are back in, none of my friends (who are super casual h2 players) will want me to include h2 in our composer settings. They can't really use button glitches, they don't know the maps inside out, but they hate playing on SMG spawns. I guess having SMG Slayer be a separate composer option from BR Slayer might be an option, but that would only fragment the player base unnecessarily. AR spawns might work okish in H3, but just as CE plays best on Pistol + AR starts, H2 plays best on BR starts. Regardless of skill level. You are the first person I have ever met who actually wants to play on SMG spawns. Everyone else refuses to play it. Even the people who made the game say that you shouldn't play on SMG spawns.
There will be always both sides of the coin. Some players like BR starts (the majority) and the other ones want SMG starts. Even if the SMG players are the minority, I'm definitely not alone and this battle will never end until the playlist offer at least a possibility to play it. Look at the original Halo 2 version, aswell as Halo 3. They had a percentage of getting AR/SMG starts and no one complained because both types of players were satisfied. Even the MCC featured it before the update, but included a vote system to avoid it.

You're saying it's like eating the unproper food 1/3 times. However, that's exactly what we feel, but we don't even get to eat the steak because now it is restricted to 3/3 times. What you're suggesting might be fair; an option in the Match Composer is probably the best option, even if it divides the population at least all kinds of players will be happy. If you think about it, the Match Composer borned with that idea in mind. Please, don't ignore a part of the community. I understand your point but we have our arguments and our idea of the game just like the BR side, so let us choose what we want.
Are there enough players for the insider test tonight? Whats the best playlist I should be searching for?
Are there enough players for the insider test tonight? Whats the best playlist I should be searching for?
I just played a game of 4v4 CE TS with like a min of waiting time. I think 4v4 with everything selected should be your best bet.

There is still no option to search for Oddball games. Oddball is my favorite Halo gametype and I'd be very weird if it was excluded from the composer.
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