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[Locked] MCC Multiplayer Feedback - January

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WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
Firstly, you didn't answer my question: if the game works with a BR, how do you explain that more than the 75% of the weapons are useless in that scenary? AR/SMG starts provide variety because they allow us to use the entire sandbox, so I think the fantasy is your "reality".

Secondly, if you don't give people an option to play automatic starts, that part of the community will eventually disappear anyways, so diluting it wouldn't make much of a difference as it only affects that portion of the population.

Finally, I'll state which is the point of not spawning with it but grabbing it. In my opinion, it takes more skill to earn it by fighting with a bad weapon, requiring you to be tactical and clever. In addition to that, you must keep it smartly or either you'll waste your ammo easily or someone will steal it. If you start with it, there's no necessity to worry about keeping it and you also remove the skill needed to earn weapons (as by that way they're not worth picking up outside the power ones) and the reason to use the rest of the sandbox. By saying there are enough BR's, I'm not saying they're enough for everyone, but to allow the use of it without turning the other weapons useless.

Sure, some opinions are probably based in ignorance, but this is definitely not one of them. While Action Sack can offer "variety", it's just a random weapon start which removes any kind of competitiveness, because you can even get a rocket launcher from spawn, and they're only fun focused, so I think the ignorance is yours. Also, why do you think it only works at a low level skill? Maybe you have a different definition for it; mine and many others is getting weapons, having enough knowledge of them all to kill and controlling the map smartly, instead of just shooting with a single gun and not minding any other ways to play. Not only that, your statement which claims that any Halo is stuck with auto starts is completely false; for instance, the original Halo 3 featured it, mainly in Social Slayer , aswell as Halo 2 Classic randomly.
343 already responded to your lobbying efforts on this, and told you to play action sack if you wanted the smg experience. The reality is the sandbox balance in H2 was not great (in particular, dual wielding was a complete and utter failure); the game doesn't play well with what Bungie originally intended to be default starts for H2, and it took them way too long to finally admit that mistake. Your point of view is not widespread enough to warrant creation of new playlist, or of modifying the starting weapons for existing playlists (in fact, they finally started weighting BR starts more heavily in H3 after far more people complained about the AR starts in social). The good news is that in a few months you'll have the custom game browser, and you can create a lobby with whatever game types/settings you see fit.

The biggest impediment to more people enjoying social is unbalanced teams. When people that have been playing at a high level for 10+ years are getting paired with people who can barely aim an auto weapon, that's a problem, and one I believe 343 plans to address in the next couple of months.
Recently just went out and bought a xbox one and MCC ( haven't played since 2012)
-Really enjoying the overall game for matching so far as many have mentioned would be awesome to have a lobby again and allow for one skip of the map. Don't need it like halo reach were you can vote on which map. Just need at least a random map to generate if majority do veto the first given map.

Overall love the nostalgia and keep the updates coming!
Can’t say I’m a fan of the Banshee on Zenith (H2A) and Accession (H2) when playing KotH.
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
Firstly, you didn't answer my question: if the game works with a BR, how do you explain that more than the 75% of the weapons are useless in that scenary? AR/SMG starts provide variety because they allow us to use the entire sandbox, so I think the fantasy is your "reality".

Secondly, if you don't give people an option to play automatic starts, that part of the community will eventually disappear anyways, so diluting it wouldn't make much of a difference as it only affects that portion of the population.

Finally, I'll state which is the point of not spawning with it but grabbing it. In my opinion, it takes more skill to earn it by fighting with a bad weapon, requiring you to be tactical and clever. In addition to that, you must keep it smartly or either you'll waste your ammo easily or someone will steal it. If you start with it, there's no necessity to worry about keeping it and you also remove the skill needed to earn weapons (as by that way they're not worth picking up outside the power ones) and the reason to use the rest of the sandbox. By saying there are enough BR's, I'm not saying they're enough for everyone, but to allow the use of it without turning the other weapons useless.

Sure, some opinions are probably based in ignorance, but this is definitely not one of them. While Action Sack can offer "variety", it's just a random weapon start which removes any kind of competitiveness, because you can even get a rocket launcher from spawn, and they're only fun focused, so I think the ignorance is yours. Also, why do you think it only works at a low level skill? Maybe you have a different definition for it; mine and many others is getting weapons, having enough knowledge of them all to kill and controlling the map smartly, instead of just shooting with a single gun and not minding any other ways to play. Not only that, your statement which claims that any Halo is stuck with auto starts is completely false; for instance, the original Halo 3 featured it, mainly in Social Slayer , aswell as Halo 2 Classic randomly.
I didn't answer it because I believe it didn't exist when I quoted it. Maybe the website is acting up who knows.

Anyways to answer said question its because part of the Halo 3 sandbox is bad and the Halo sandbox has had serious problems from Halo 2 onwards. And of course by 75% of the sandbox you mean the AR, SMG, Spiker, Plasma Rifle, and Magnum which is about 21%-23%~ of the sandbox depending on whether we include all usable weapons or just ones available in matchmaking. We also have weapons like the Carbine which is not "useless" by any means but is just a redundant clone of the BR so there isn't really any reason to pick it up. The bad sandbox design doesn't go away when you spawn with an AR

As for that community "disappearing" they apparently are not substantial enough to warrant keeping in CE, H2, H2A, or Halo 5 for that matter so why is Halo 3 so special?

The whole problem with the idea of picking up up a weapon being while starting with a bad one being a "skill" just doesn't hold up once a match actually gets underway. "Being tactical and clever" is a two way street and a team with map control has far more options than one respawning with ARs. A player respawning with an AR is incredibly easy to predict and exploit because they have effectively two options off spawn: 1.) Run to get a precision weapon. 2.) Use close quarters pathways to get around. The players with a BR/Carbine or power weapons have all the same options you do, they can just act on them to far greater degree and you have no real options to outshoot them other than hoping they make some really blatant boneheaded mistakes. Again the the sad truth is that the sandbox just isn't very good and simply forcing people to use sub par weapons is not fun or interesting. It is completely superficial "variety"

Halo with its two weapon limit, slower overall pace, and team oriented nature just doesn't lend itself well to the original Arena tradition of working your way to the top.

It only "works" when everyone is at a low skill level because when one team has even a modicum of skill and experience then killing fresh spawns is like shooting fish in a barrel. Like a said before the clever tactics, map knowledge, etc are a two way street only your enemies have more of them when they know how limited a fresh respawn is. BR starts have all the same "clever tactics", the only difference is there is no reason to mess around with a minority of badly designed weapons. Simply having a different weapon in your hand is not inherently more interesting. Complaining about badly designed weapons not getting used and demanding they get used anyways is superficial beyond all belief. This is why I bring up action sack because it already exists if you want superficial variety at the expense of competitive merit.

I never said that Halo has never had any auto starts, just that as far as I'm aware they no longer exist in standard MCC gametypes outside of Halo 3. On that note it is true that games like H2 and H3 started out with auto starts, but it is funny how people almost immediately started demanding BR starts. AR/Pistol was the de facto starts in CE, players demanded BR starts in Halo 2 and 3, DMR starts became common if not the norm in Reach. Even Halo 4 which gave everyone "options" was dominated by precision weapons and in Halo 5 there are not any "auto" starts to begin with in any meaningful capacity. If the idea that auto starts had any real competitive merit there wouldn't have ever been a demand for precision starts in the first place, yet we see a consistent pattern of preference for precision starts.
Earlier today I got into a match (Halo 4 BTB on Impact) and a few minutes into it I got that dreaded black screen that happens when the host quits in Halo 4. Then it kicked everyone and I got stuck on an infinite loading screen. Only way to get out of it was to close the game and restart, and I got an unfair ban because of it.

Later on, I was queuing up another round of BTB. Usually it takes some time to find a match, so I was passing the time by reading a book. I got paired with 15 other players and the match was about to start, only for the game to kick me out of matchmaking for "idling." First, why the hell is there an AFK-boot feature active during the matchmaking process? Second, why isn't this feature active during gameplay itself? I see people go AFK in nearly every match; this is totally bassackwards.

Both of these issues need some attention.
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
Firstly, you didn't answer my question: if the game works with a BR, how do you explain that more than the 75% of the weapons are useless in that scenary? AR/SMG starts provide variety because they allow us to use the entire sandbox, so I think the fantasy is your "reality".

Secondly, if you don't give people an option to play automatic starts, that part of the community will eventually disappear anyways, so diluting it wouldn't make much of a difference as it only affects that portion of the population.

Finally, I'll state which is the point of not spawning with it but grabbing it. In my opinion, it takes more skill to earn it by fighting with a bad weapon, requiring you to be tactical and clever. In addition to that, you must keep it smartly or either you'll waste your ammo easily or someone will steal it. If you start with it, there's no necessity to worry about keeping it and you also remove the skill needed to earn weapons (as by that way they're not worth picking up outside the power ones) and the reason to use the rest of the sandbox. By saying there are enough BR's, I'm not saying they're enough for everyone, but to allow the use of it without turning the other weapons useless.

Sure, some opinions are probably based in ignorance, but this is definitely not one of them. While Action Sack can offer "variety", it's just a random weapon start which removes any kind of competitiveness, because you can even get a rocket launcher from spawn, and they're only fun focused, so I think the ignorance is yours. Also, why do you think it only works at a low level skill? Maybe you have a different definition for it; mine and many others is getting weapons, having enough knowledge of them all to kill and controlling the map smartly, instead of just shooting with a single gun and not minding any other ways to play. Not only that, your statement which claims that any Halo is stuck with auto starts is completely false; for instance, the original Halo 3 featured it, mainly in Social Slayer , aswell as Halo 2 Classic randomly.
343 already responded to your lobbying efforts on this, and told you to play action sack if you wanted the smg experience. The reality is the sandbox balance in H2 was not great (in particular, dual wielding was a complete and utter failure); the game doesn't play well with what Bungie originally intended to be default starts for H2, and it took them way too long to finally admit that mistake. Your point of view is not widespread enough to warrant creation of new playlist, or of modifying the starting weapons for existing playlists (in fact, they finally started weighting BR starts more heavily in H3 after far more people complained about the AR starts in social). The good news is that in a few months you'll have the custom game browser, and you can create a lobby with whatever game types/settings you see fit.

The biggest impediment to more people enjoying social is unbalanced teams. When people that have been playing at a high level for 10+ years are getting paired with people who can barely aim an auto weapon, that's a problem, and one I believe 343 plans to address in the next couple of months.
Hopefully they'll fix the balance soon. It's one of the main problems.

In reality, I only want auto starts in Halo 2 because of dual-wielding mainly and due to a friend who can't use the BR properly. In fact, I like BR starts, and the BR + SMG option is the one I prefer as it fits that dual purpouse, but I would like to play with that friend that way, and I still think SMG starts have solid points.. As it seems there's not enough demand to change that playlist or add a new one, I believe this is going to be kept as it is until more people ask for it, which won't probably happen. The problem with Action Sack is the randomness and the focus in fun instead of competitiveness, but like you said, custom lobbies will be probably they way to fix it. Let's stop this for the moment then.

The perfect sandbox balance, which lets you use all weapons and guns, without leaving you with a useless tool, is in my opinion the Halo 5 one. Halo 4 is good too but there's no equal starts.
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
Firstly, you didn't answer my question: if the game works with a BR, how do you explain that more than the 75% of the weapons are useless in that scenary? AR/SMG starts provide variety because they allow us to use the entire sandbox, so I think the fantasy is your "reality".

Secondly, if you don't give people an option to play automatic starts, that part of the community will eventually disappear anyways, so diluting it wouldn't make much of a difference as it only affects that portion of the population.

Finally, I'll state which is the point of not spawning with it but grabbing it. In my opinion, it takes more skill to earn it by fighting with a bad weapon, requiring you to be tactical and clever. In addition to that, you must keep it smartly or either you'll waste your ammo easily or someone will steal it. If you start with it, there's no necessity to worry about keeping it and you also remove the skill needed to earn weapons (as by that way they're not worth picking up outside the power ones) and the reason to use the rest of the sandbox. By saying there are enough BR's, I'm not saying they're enough for everyone, but to allow the use of it without turning the other weapons useless.

Sure, some opinions are probably based in ignorance, but this is definitely not one of them. While Action Sack can offer "variety", it's just a random weapon start which removes any kind of competitiveness, because you can even get a rocket launcher from spawn, and they're only fun focused, so I think the ignorance is yours. Also, why do you think it only works at a low level skill? Maybe you have a different definition for it; mine and many others is getting weapons, having enough knowledge of them all to kill and controlling the map smartly, instead of just shooting with a single gun and not minding any other ways to play. Not only that, your statement which claims that any Halo is stuck with auto starts is completely false; for instance, the original Halo 3 featured it, mainly in Social Slayer , aswell as Halo 2 Classic randomly.
I didn't answer it because I believe it didn't exist when I quoted it. Maybe the website is acting up who knows.

Anyways to answer said question its because part of the Halo 3 sandbox is bad and the Halo sandbox has had serious problems from Halo 2 onwards. And of course by 75% of the sandbox you mean the AR, SMG, Spiker, Plasma Rifle, and Magnum which is about 21%-23%~ of the sandbox depending on whether we include all usable weapons or just ones available in matchmaking. We also have weapons like the Carbine which is not "useless" by any means but is just a redundant clone of the BR so there isn't really any reason to pick it up. The bad sandbox design doesn't go away when you spawn with an AR

As for that community "disappearing" they apparently are not substantial enough to warrant keeping in CE, H2, H2A, or Halo 5 for that matter so why is Halo 3 so special?

The whole problem with the idea of picking up up a weapon being while starting with a bad one being a "skill" just doesn't hold up once a match actually gets underway. "Being tactical and clever" is a two way street and a team with map control has far more options than one respawning with ARs. A player respawning with an AR is incredibly easy to predict and exploit because they have effectively two options off spawn: 1.) Run to get a precision weapon. 2.) Use close quarters pathways to get around. The players with a BR/Carbine or power weapons have all the same options you do, they can just act on them to far greater degree and you have no real options to outshoot them other than hoping they make some really blatant boneheaded mistakes. Again the the sad truth is that the sandbox just isn't very good and simply forcing people to use sub par weapons is not fun or interesting. It is completely superficial "variety"

Halo with its two weapon limit, slower overall pace, and tethenented nature just doesn't lend itself well to the original Arena tradition of working your way to the top.

It only "works" when everyone is at a low skill level because when one team has even a modicum of skill and experience then killing fresh spawns is like shooting fish in a barrel. Like a said before the clever tactics, map knowledge, etc are a two way street only your enemies have more of them when they know how limited a fresh respawn is. BR starts have all the same "clever tactics", the only difference is there is no reason to mess around with a minority of badly designed weapons. Simply having a different weapon in your hand is not inherently more interesting. Complaining about badly designed weapons not getting used and demanding they get used anyways is superficial beyond all belief. This is why I bring up action sack because it already exists if you want superficial variety at the expense of competitive merit.

I never said that Halo has never had any auto starts, just that as far as I'm aware they no longer exist in standard MCC gametypes outside of Halo 3. On that note it is true that games like H2 and H3 started out with auto starts, but it is funny how people almost immediately started demanding BR starts. AR/Pistol was the de facto starts in CE, players demanded BR starts in Halo 2 and 3, DMR starts became common if not the norm in Reach. Even Halo 4 which gave everyone "options" was dominated by precision weapons and in Halo 5 there are not any "auto" starts to begin with in any meaningful capacity. If the idea that auto starts had any real competitive merit there wouldn't have ever been a demand for precision starts in the first place, yet we see a consistent pattern of preference for precision starts.
You have convinced me. Let's wait for custom lobbies as it is the only way to try that gameplay , though, as my main interest is playing with a friend who is not so skilled.

I can support BR starts, but with the addition of the auto weapon to make close range combat easier and to allow dual-wielding. As it seems that BR+SMG/AR is only enabled in Slayer, I would request to turn it on in Objective too. I think that's fair and enough for the moment. Although auto only starts can offer a different way to play, it's clear that there's not enough demand right now.
Please implement joining match in progress to MCC. It's very aggravating so see teammates quitting early on because the enemy team is good. It's also a real bother to go 2v4 in most matches and or 1v2 for doubles.

Also if the veto system can come back to MCC that would be great too. As much as i like H3, i want to be able to vote on what halo to play or map voting for specific playlists such as h2c arena or lone wolves
Can you (343i) please try and balance matchmaking more? It's so one sided and I'm not particularly good at Halo as it is and every game I seem to lose badly. It's just not fun to lose every single game you get put into.

For some reason the system seems to think that putting four really good players against four bad ones is fine and fair and it's just tiring at this point.

I get quit banned every hour almost.
The Hybred wrote:
A feedback I would like to give, is this. I left a match in the middle of a game because so many of my teammates left right at the start. It wasn't balanced, fair, or fun, then I get temporarily banned and punished for leaving. I think after the first or second person leaves the other people shouldn't receive a punishment. The games not enjoyable or fair when the teams are unbalanced, please fix the ban system in MCC
I find myself agreeing with this. If there are only three or two people left in a match vs 8 other people, then they shouldn't be punished for quitting. I definitely think that there should be a penalty for people quitting - but maybe the first 4 people who quit? I've quit matches before where it was me and one other guy vs four high skilled people.

The main counterargument I could think against that is that if there are less people, then the game will go by quicker and end sooner so stick it out. While this is the case in some CTF and objective games, I've been in situations where I was one of two people left on a team in a CTF game, and they didn't once go after our flag. Instead, they killed us over and over and over again, horded all the power weapons, and let the timer draw out to fifteen minutes. I've been in situations like this multiple times, and the times that I get fed up and quit, I get banned. Or if I go AFK, I come back to a ban screen.

I know this can't be said for every player, and I don't want you to think of this in black and white terms because there are so many variables here, but I am a very busy person daily. I'm in a band, I work a day full time job, and I have a wife. The few hours a day I get to enjoy video games I don't want to spend 15 minutes of it dying over and over while being massively outnumbered.

I agree with quit bans, I think they work fine, but punishing the last two people who quit out of a game shouldn't be a thing. Why penalize them over other people quitting?
EDIT: Join in progress would fix this issue as well (and if it was in I think that it would be appropriate to penalize everyone for quitting) , but seeing that it's not in the MCC or classic halo, my point above still stands in my mind.

In an unrelated topic that I saw in the thread, I just want to say that with BR and AR starts in Halo 3 why not have both and adjust the weightings accordingly? I believe that Halo 3 back in the day in the Social Slayer playlist had both .
Can you (343i) please try and balance matchmaking more? It's so one sided and I'm not particularly good at Halo as it is and every game I seem to lose badly. It's just not fun to lose every single game you get put into.

For some reason the system seems to think that putting four really good players against four bad ones is fine and fair and it's just tiring at this point.

I get quit banned every hour almost.
This is the most important improvement, which should be implemented in matchmaking as soon as possible, in a way or another. Please, balance the games.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not bump.
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Can you (343i) please try and balance matchmaking more? It's so one sided and I'm not particularly good at Halo as it is and every game I seem to lose badly. It's just not fun to lose every single game you get put into.

For some reason the system seems to think that putting four really good players against four bad ones is fine and fair and it's just tiring at this point.

I get quit banned every hour almost.
You don't get a quit penalty if half your team quits in a match.
Im a level 1 in lone wolves and my first game i played against level 50s in lonewolves!!! 50s!!! the 2nd and 3rd games i played from level 17s to 37 and then 40s!!! can someone please tell me why a level 1 in lone wolves is playing against level 40s and 50s.... i fully understood halo 3 to always play within 10 levels so unless somehtings drastically changed and i dont know about it level 50s should not be playing level 1s... please go back into my last 3 lone wolves games and see cause this has to change or be fixed... please fix!!!
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Add map Onslaught on list of game =)
Snofl wrote:
The extermination medal is glitched. It does not pop up after you wipe out an entire team with an overkill. Halo 3 and H2A so far has the issue.
Are you sure you killed all of them and not one of them twice in that overkill? If so it doesnt count as an extermination.
I made two clips showing I killed all four individual players in 4v4 slayer games.
Postums wrote:
If you think we don't listen to players and take in feedback on making changes to the game - you aren't paying attention at all to what I do for my day job.

I literally go through the forums here, twitter, reddit, YouTube, and gather feedback from the community as a whole. Then take said feedback to the development team to help craft playlists and playlist options that the community has asked for.

Just because your specific items you want aren't being addressed does not mean we aren't listening. It just means that your opinion isn't as widespread as you think it is.

Also - right now, MCC has the most play options it has ever had for anyone who wants to play matchmaking. Match Composer is the most robust options for choosing what you want to play ever in Halo history.
So what was the purpose of getting rid of ranked Snipers, Swat, and Doubles? Having the option to play various playlists (alongside the satisfaction of ranking up) is important. Getting rid of staple playlists because their population is low is not a good reason. The match composer is great and all, but not having these dedicated ranked playlists is really discouraging.
baaask wrote:
Getting rid of staple playlists because their population is low is not a good reason.
Why keep those playlists around when nobody is playing them?
Snofl wrote:
The extermination medal is glitched. It does not pop up after you wipe out an entire team with an overkill. Halo 3 and H2A so far has the issue.
Are you sure you killed all of them and not one of them twice in that overkill? If so it doesnt count as an extermination.
I made two clips showing I killed all four individual players in 4v4 slayer games.
Hey there. For an extermination you need a overkill, plus ALL 4 members need to be on respawn. This is why it's easier to get an extermination in objective than is slayer, since in objective gametypes you usually have longer respawns. I've seen an extermination in BTB (8v8) which someone got by just having an overkill, just because by coincidence the whole team was down at the time.
In my experience the extermination medal is not broken, I've had some.
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