Forums / Games / Halo: The Master Chief Collection (Xbox)

Please remove the TU settings for Reach

OP SamTheWeebo

  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 6
Halo Reach was designed from the ground up with the bloom mechanic. Reducing or removing it completely changes the game. I know this was originally done to satisfy the "competitive" crowd, But that's totally not needed here. The "Competitive" crowd has halo ce, halo 2, halo 2 anni, halo 3 and heck even halo 4 that they can play without the bloom mechanic. The TU just disjoints how halo reach feels. You learn the game mechanics in the campaign only to find that the mp with the tu is a completely different game. It sucks. I've been against the TU from the time it was first introduced. Please keep it out of the MCC. It is completely unneeded and just makes things confusing for new players and really makes the MP side of reach feel bad.
I disagree, the TU made a vast improvement to the overall reach experience and I'm stoked that the devs are going no bloom no sprint mlg settings for the hard-core ranked, TU in all other mp lists, you've still got invasion with bloom on.. All is not lost for bloom fans tho I'm sure they will cycle in and out some playlists from time to time, like they do with H5
The TU playlist is a grave yard. No one plays it. As soon as there was a TU slayer and a Vanilla slayer, the Tu slayer population dropped to nothing. The only TU playlist that kept any population was the BTB playlist and that was because it was the only BTB option. All the TU did was alienate a large population of players, and divide the remaining player population into more playlists than that population could fill. In effect the TU literally killed halo reach mp. Also as stated before the whole point of the TU in the first place was to attract the MLG type of people into the game, but it basically failed at that and is completely unnecessary now that the MLG types have halo 3 right there in the same game to play. The TU will only alienate newcomers to the game because campaign gameplay and MP gameplay will be completely different from one another. The TU playlist was a mistake then, and is an even bigger mistake now.

Saying bloom fans still have invasion boarders on offensive. The only reason this isn't TU is because it literally can not work. Also only one playlist is a joke how would you as a no bloom fan feel if the only no bloom option was team snipers, not just in halo reach but in the entire MCC.
I'm actually kind of in agreeance with OP I feel like the TU settings should only apply to a ranked playlist for the competitive crowed and vanilla settings in the standard matchmaking. Luckily invasion will keep the vanilla settings and I will probably mostly play invasion and or firefight.
I agree OP. And population number did show a clear preference.

I say, put bloom back to 100%, but keep the armor lock and invis nerf.

removing sword block is cool.
TU was an improvement in every way that matters. Invasion is the only scenario where there is some discussion to be had and even then it is not as if we are talking about No Bloom settings, only 85% Bloom.

TU settings *existing* was never the problem with Reach playlists, it was 343's failure to commit to their own update. If "Super Slayer" had been listed as "Team Slayer", nothing would have changed population wise compared to having vanilla TS. Every other TU updated playlist kept on going as normal. It was only the boneheaded decision to keep vanilla settings under the TS title that made the difference.

The average player just isn't that discerning when it comes to playlist. All that happens is they jump online to play Halo and just pick Team Slayer which is historically the most popular playlist. You could have probably switched the settings from TU or vanilla every other day and most folks wouldn't notice.

If TU consisted solely of Zero-Bloom settings, there might be an argument here, but the Reach TU with 85% doesn't fundamentally change how the game plays, it just makes more frustrating aspects of the game less of a problem.

The only problem I ever had with the TU was the health pack bug with bleedthrough settings and that should be well within 343's power to fix for this new release.
WerepyreND wrote:
TU was an improvement in every way that matters. Invasion is the only scenario where there is some discussion to be had and even then it is not as if we are talking about No Bloom settings, only 85% Bloom.

TU settings *existing* was never the problem with Reach playlists, it was 343's failure to commit to their own update. If "Super Slayer" had been listed as "Team Slayer", nothing would have changed population wise compared to having vanilla TS. Every other TU updated playlist kept on going as normal. It was only the boneheaded decision to keep vanilla settings under the TS title that made the difference.

The average player just isn't that discerning when it comes to playlist. All that happens is they jump online to play Halo and just pick Team Slayer which is historically the most popular playlist. You could have probably switched the settings from TU or vanilla every other day and most folks wouldn't notice.

If TU consisted solely of Zero-Bloom settings, there might be an argument here, but the Reach TU with 85% doesn't fundamentally change how the game plays, it just makes more frustrating aspects of the game less of a problem.

The only problem I ever had with the TU was the health pack bug with bleedthrough settings and that should be well within 343's power to fix for this new release.
You don't see the fact that team slayer had a constant population where as the TU slayer completely died as evidence that the TU was bad? People did notice the changes and they preferred the normal game play. Also I did notice a population drop in all the TU playlists with the exception of BTB because it's BTB. The 85% bloom reduction has a major effect on weapon balance and gameplay. Also just the fact that every weapon will perform significantly differently between campaign and multiplayer will put players off. There are some differences between campaign and mp in most halo games but this will be very jarring. I want halo reach to play like halo reach. The whole point of the TU was to bring back MLG players. There is no reason anymore to have that because all the "competitive" halo games are right there in the collection. I always saw the TU as a big mistake, but I understood it's reason for being. Now it really has no reason for being besides making 343 feel like they made reach better even though the population shows that they didn't.
WerepyreND wrote:
TU was an improvement in every way that matters. Invasion is the only scenario where there is some discussion to be had and even then it is not as if we are talking about No Bloom settings, only 85% Bloom.

TU settings *existing* was never the problem with Reach playlists, it was 343's failure to commit to their own update. If "Super Slayer" had been listed as "Team Slayer", nothing would have changed population wise compared to having vanilla TS. Every other TU updated playlist kept on going as normal. It was only the boneheaded decision to keep vanilla settings under the TS title that made the difference.

The average player just isn't that discerning when it comes to playlist. All that happens is they jump online to play Halo and just pick Team Slayer which is historically the most popular playlist. You could have probably switched the settings from TU or vanilla every other day and most folks wouldn't notice.

If TU consisted solely of Zero-Bloom settings, there might be an argument here, but the Reach TU with 85% doesn't fundamentally change how the game plays, it just makes more frustrating aspects of the game less of a problem.

The only problem I ever had with the TU was the health pack bug with bleedthrough settings and that should be well within 343's power to fix for this new release.
You don't see the fact that team slayer had a constant population where as the TU slayer completely died as evidence that the TU was bad? People did notice the changes and they preferred the normal game play. Also I did notice a population drop in all the TU playlists with the exception of BTB because it's BTB. The 85% bloom reduction has a major effect on weapon balance and gameplay. Also just the fact that every weapon will perform significantly differently between campaign and multiplayer will put players off. There are some differences between campaign and mp in most halo games but this will be very jarring. I want halo reach to play like halo reach. The whole point of the TU was to bring back MLG players. There is no reason anymore to have that because all the "competitive" halo games are right there in the collection. I always saw the TU as a big mistake, but I understood it's reason for being. Now it really has no reason for being besides making 343 feel like they made reach better even though the population shows that they didn't.
Not really true. The TU population was split between Slayer and the team objective playlist because it was TU. Guy above was right, TU happened because it made frustrating aspects of the game less a problem and balanced out mechanic behavior. Sword blocking was stupid mechanic all around, Armor Lock was a free pass with no negative reason to not use it. Camo got nerfed. Melee bleedthrough was made consistent comparable to all other titles. Reduced bloom made the weapons more viable in engagements by reducing the luck factor involved in fights.
It's not entirely accurate to say Bloom was changed "to satisfy the competitive crowd". Bloom was changed because in its vanilla implementation it's a garbage mechanic that flattens the skill ceiling in the game and actively makes the normal game modes worse. That is the reason the "competitive crowd" criticized it. Vanilla bloom was like taking everything bad about the huge BR spread of Halo 3 and dialing it up to 11.

Mechanics that flatten out the possible skill ceiling in your game by turning the combat into an RNG-fest are bad for the game, period. Doesn't matter if you are a skilled or a trash player. The game itself is worse when you are rewarded by RNG and not your skill. That's like game design 101.

There's a reason that the old saying around Reach used to be "bloom is for bad kids"... the only people who ever liked it were people who liked that they could get kills on more skilled players because bloom neutered player skill so badly.
I am 100% behind you, OP. Precision weapons in Reach were very effective and versatile at launch and the TU only made them more so, while doing nothing to adjust the rest of the weapon sandbox. I still play Reach Team Slayer and I just want that experience in MCC.

PLEASE GIVE US AT LEAST ONE NON-TU TEAM SLAYER PLAYLIST WITH ALL DEVELOPER-MADE MAPS OF APPROPRIATE SIZE

If we can't have this, I have no interest in playing Reach in MCC and I'll go to the 360 version to get my fix.

We have no idea how popular/unpopular TU settings would have been on 360 because there are just too many unknowns. There were likely many players who weren't even aware of the differences, and chose which lists to play relative to their party size or gametype preference. I can tell you that if they had just made all of the playlists TU, I would have stopped playing the game entirely. I highly disagree with their weapon sandbox adjustments, to the point where I'll gladly give up changes I thought were okay (like removing sword block or nerfing armor lock) if it means keeping the original weapon sandbox.

I never played a Halo game where I felt like I was in control of my own failure/success than default Reach. Squad Slayer (5v5 jetpack/sprint, non-TU) was the god-tier playlist and 343 Industries killed it. Everything about the weapon sandbox was meticulously crafted, and in my opinion, the TU designers catered too heavily to a fanbase that didn't want to adjust to the new mechanics, and the TU designers did not give sandbox balance enough respect.

The way shield damage works in non-TU is exquisite player feedback design--the player knows at every moment whether they or an opponent are vulnerable to kill by headshot or melee, by sight and/or by sound, and it feels fantastic.

You praise the lasting legacy of the art design in this game, but the sandbox design is just as worthy of preservation and appreciation.

I IMPLORE YOU TO RECONSIDER.
just keep it classic
Ive played years of reach and became inheritor by playing without tu-settings.
If they add it ill just keep laying og reach till the population dies out.
WerepyreND wrote:
TU was an improvement in every way that matters. Invasion is the only scenario where there is some discussion to be had and even then it is not as if we are talking about No Bloom settings, only 85% Bloom.

TU settings *existing* was never the problem with Reach playlists, it was 343's failure to commit to their own update. If "Super Slayer" had been listed as "Team Slayer", nothing would have changed population wise compared to having vanilla TS. Every other TU updated playlist kept on going as normal. It was only the boneheaded decision to keep vanilla settings under the TS title that made the difference.

The average player just isn't that discerning when it comes to playlist. All that happens is they jump online to play Halo and just pick Team Slayer which is historically the most popular playlist. You could have probably switched the settings from TU or vanilla every other day and most folks wouldn't notice.

If TU consisted solely of Zero-Bloom settings, there might be an argument here, but the Reach TU with 85% doesn't fundamentally change how the game plays, it just makes more frustrating aspects of the game less of a problem.

The only problem I ever had with the TU was the health pack bug with bleedthrough settings and that should be well within 343's power to fix for this new release.
You don't see the fact that team slayer had a constant population where as the TU slayer completely died as evidence that the TU was bad? People did notice the changes and they preferred the normal game play. Also I did notice a population drop in all the TU playlists with the exception of BTB because it's BTB. The 85% bloom reduction has a major effect on weapon balance and gameplay. Also just the fact that every weapon will perform significantly differently between campaign and multiplayer will put players off. There are some differences between campaign and mp in most halo games but this will be very jarring. I want halo reach to play like halo reach. The whole point of the TU was to bring back MLG players. There is no reason anymore to have that because all the "competitive" halo games are right there in the collection. I always saw the TU as a big mistake, but I understood it's reason for being. Now it really has no reason for being besides making 343 feel like they made reach better even though the population shows that they didn't.
No, I don't, as I said before, other playlists with TU settings like BTB did just fine. The only difference was the arbitrary split in the Slayer playlist and again, that is down to the fact that most people are not going to look twice at "Super Slayer" while TS exists, regardless of settings. Turns out if you don't arbitrary split the playlists between two versions with a nonsense name, people seemed to accept the TU settings without fuss.

85% bloom changed exactly 3 weapons and the only weapon to have any change worth talking about is the Needle Rifle still effectively being zero-bloom even at 85%. Even that change wasn't all that radical given the Bloom on the NR was never that significant in the first place and was really only a factor when you held down the trigger. Hardly "every weapon will perform significantly differently between campaign and multiplayer."
Let’s be clear that people for removing the TU and putting bloom at 100% still want the armor lock and invis nerf, right?

Its mainly bloom we are debating.
I agree OP. And population number did show a clear preference.

I say, put bloom back to 100%, but keep the armor lock and invis nerf.

removing sword block is cool.
I feel like the only reason the TU playlists were always less populated was because of it not being the first option on the menu screen.

I love the TU settings. The less bloom, the Armor Lock nerf, and rebalancing of some weapons felt so much better.
What I really don't understand about the anti TU crowd is why is it such a big deal to have only 80% bloom? No one seems to care about the other changes and most seem to like them. But everyone is acting like 80% bloom just kills the game somehow and here I am excited about it.
WerepyreND wrote:
No, I don't, as I said before, other playlists with TU settings like BTB did just fine. The only difference was the arbitrary split in the Slayer playlist and again, that is down to the fact that most people are not going to look twice at "Super Slayer" while TS exists, regardless of settings. Turns out if you don't arbitrary split the playlists between two versions with a nonsense name, people seemed to accept the TU settings without fuss.

85% bloom changed exactly 3 weapons and the only weapon to have any change worth talking about is the Needle Rifle still effectively being zero-bloom even at 85%. Even that change wasn't all that radical given the Bloom on the NR was never that significant in the first place and was really only a factor when you held down the trigger. Hardly "every weapon will perform significantly differently between campaign and multiplayer."
I can tell you that, unequivocally, if 343 Industries had made Team Slayer TU-only, I would have stopped playing Reach then and there. That's how strongly I feel about it being bad design. What you explain here gets to the heart of the reason--they buffed weapons that were already top of the metagame.

I agree OP. And population number did show a clear preference.
I say, put bloom back to 100%, but keep the armor lock and invis nerf.
removing sword block is cool.
I feel like the only reason the TU playlists were always less populated was because of it not being the first option on the menu screen.
I love the TU settings. The less bloom, the Armor Lock nerf, and rebalancing of some weapons felt so much better.
If it was at the top of the list, it probably would be more popular, but that just says that there really wasn't a clearly executed test to see what players preferred, and I'm not sure they had the resources to execute such a test in the first place.

What I really don't understand about the anti TU crowd is why is it such a big deal to have only 80% bloom? No one seems to care about the other changes and most seem to like them. But everyone is acting like 80% bloom just kills the game somehow and here I am excited about it.
It's 85%, and it does have a significant effect on the game, which is why some like it. It increases time-to-kill at distance and that has a profound impact on the entire game. This is not a game with high base mobility. The weapons are designed to kill more slowly so people can successfully navigate around the map, flank, close distance, etc.
I know this was originally done to satisfy the "competitive" crowd

The whole point of the TU was to bring back MLG players.
Do you have a link where they say the update was only done for the competitive MLG crowd or are you just assuming things and saying them like it's a fact?
LUKEPOWA wrote:
I know this was originally done to satisfy the "competitive" crowd

The whole point of the TU was to bring back MLG players.
Do you have a link where they say the update was only done for the competitive MLG crowd or are you just assuming things and saying them like it's a fact?
I remember when it was tested among the whole game and nowhere was it even hinted at for MLG. Bloom was one of the biggest complaints against Reach second only to armor abilities.
What I really don't understand about the anti TU crowd is why is it such a big deal to have only 80% bloom? No one seems to care about the other changes and most seem to like them. But everyone is acting like 80% bloom just kills the game somehow and here I am excited about it.
Because the anti TU crowd are mostly lower skill players who want more bloom in the game so that they actually have a chance to kill more skilled players due to RNGesus.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
I know this was originally done to satisfy the "competitive" crowd

The whole point of the TU was to bring back MLG players.
Do you have a link where they say the update was only done for the competitive MLG crowd or are you just assuming things and saying them like it's a fact?
Of course he's just assuming things. The competitive MLG crowd wanted ZBNS settings, not reduced bloom. They still hated bloom in the TU just as much as vanilla. OP is just trying to get around having to argue the merits of a bad game mechanic.

Also, the popularity argument doesn't work with the TU vs non-TU lists. The TU, along with ZBNS, came out too late in Reach's life - after a significant chunk of the competitive community had already abandoned Reach - to gain much of a following. Reach by that time had already settled into its niche as a fun but exclusively casual Halo game and that portion of its population didn't really need the TU or ZBNS.
  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 6