Forums / Games / Halo: The Master Chief Collection (Xbox)

Please remove the TU settings for Reach

OP SamTheWeebo

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What I really don't understand about the anti TU crowd is why is it such a big deal to have only 80% bloom? No one seems to care about the other changes and most seem to like them. But everyone is acting like 80% bloom just kills the game somehow and here I am excited about it.
Because the anti TU crowd are mostly lower skill players who want more bloom in the game so that they actually have a chance to kill more skilled players due to RNGesus.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
I know this was originally done to satisfy the "competitive" crowd

The whole point of the TU was to bring back MLG players.
Do you have a link where they say the update was only done for the competitive MLG crowd or are you just assuming things and saying them like it's a fact?
Of course he's just assuming things. The competitive MLG crowd wanted ZBNS settings, not reduced bloom. They still hated bloom in the TU just as much as vanilla. OP is just trying to get around having to argue the merits of a bad game mechanic.

Also, the popularity argument doesn't work with the TU vs non-TU lists. The TU, along with ZBNS, came out too late in Reach's life - after a significant chunk of the competitive community had already abandoned Reach - to gain much of a following. Reach by that time had already settled into its niche as a fun but exclusively casual Halo game and that portion of its population didn't really need the TU or ZBNS.
It's always nice too have someone's argument boil down to "people who agree with me are highly skilled" and "people who disagree with me are lowly skilled", along with the implication that one group is superior to the other beyond just the skill disparity in the game.

There is some merit to the idea that bloom reduction was primarily to serve people who were more highly-skilled. Zero bloom for MLG gametypes was not possible without patching the game to modify bloom values. Also, higher-skilled players are going to use precision weapons more frequently, and increasing their effectiveness necessarily shorts those who use non-precision weapons:

1) because it makes those precision weapons more viable in the ideal ranges for non-precision weapons and
2) because it makes it less possible for players to move around the map into ideal ranges for non-precision weapons because the overall time-to-kill at range has gone down

I think Reach came at a time where players were hungry for a more living game that updated and changed its sandbox, but it wasn't that, so a battle ensued over whether it should be or not, and we got half-measures like the playlists being split between old and new.

The fact of the matter is that Reach is its own thing. It made bold decisions that some loved and some hated, but they were internally consistent to the game, and therefore should be preserved. Most people who played Reach played it in 1.0, and a good portion who stuck around for the following years also continued to play 1.0, even till today. Have respect for these fans, and if you're not interested in it, there are tons of other Halo games to play, both older and newer, and some still yet to come.
Please keep in mind that there is an MLG playlist for pros that has zero bloom. I agree with everything stated above from HiredNoobs, btw.

MLG playlist for pros, and 100% bloom for everyone else.

i do love the nerfs to armor abilities, as those were game breaking imo.
HiredN00bs wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
No, I don't, as I said before, other playlists with TU settings like BTB did just fine. The only difference was the arbitrary split in the Slayer playlist and again, that is down to the fact that most people are not going to look twice at "Super Slayer" while TS exists, regardless of settings. Turns out if you don't arbitrary split the playlists between two versions with a nonsense name, people seemed to accept the TU settings without fuss.

85% bloom changed exactly 3 weapons and the only weapon to have any change worth talking about is the Needle Rifle still effectively being zero-bloom even at 85%. Even that change wasn't all that radical given the Bloom on the NR was never that significant in the first place and was really only a factor when you held down the trigger. Hardly "every weapon will perform significantly differently between campaign and multiplayer."
I can tell you that, unequivocally, if 343 Industries had made Team Slayer TU-only, I would have stopped playing Reach then and there. That's how strongly I feel about it being bad design. What you explain here gets to the heart of the reason--they buffed weapons that were already top of the metagame.
What are you even trying to say here? "I would have stopped playing Reach then and there", meanwhile the TU made the game much better for me, whoop de do, I don't see how anecdotes are going to help here.

I also wish some of you would actually list the "bad designs" and how "every weapon will perform significant;y differently between campaign and multiplayer." 85% bloom(and I would argue Zero Bloom as well but lets table that for now) doesn't make the Magnum, DMR, or NR much better at anything they weren't already good at. The vast majority of the sandbox still works fine vanilla or otherwise. The only underperforming weapons were the auto weapons, specifically the AR, Repeater, Plasma Rifle, and Spiker and even then only the first two were ever intended to be used in multiplayer. At the ranges that you would be using the AR or Repeater any bloom is going to be irrelevant and increasing the effectiveness of precision weapons at range isn't going to change anything.

The auto's are underpowered in H2-Reach, it is just the unfortunate truth and 85% TU settings did not help or harm them in any meaningful way, so I honestly have no idea what people are talking about with the so called "bad design" of the TU.
Please keep in mind that there is an MLG playlist for pros that has zero bloom. I agree with everything stated above from HiredNoobs, btw.

MLG playlist for pros, and 100% bloom for everyone else.
I don't play the MLG playlists nor am I a pro, but I like the TU settings and they made the game more bearable for me mainly in Rumble Pit and BTB.
WerepyreND wrote:
HiredN00bs wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
No, I don't, as I said before, other playlists with TU settings like BTB did just fine. The only difference was the arbitrary split in the Slayer playlist and again, that is down to the fact that most people are not going to look twice at "Super Slayer" while TS exists, regardless of settings. Turns out if you don't arbitrary split the playlists between two versions with a nonsense name, people seemed to accept the TU settings without fuss.

85% bloom changed exactly 3 weapons and the only weapon to have any change worth talking about is the Needle Rifle still effectively being zero-bloom even at 85%. Even that change wasn't all that radical given the Bloom on the NR was never that significant in the first place and was really only a factor when you held down the trigger. Hardly "every weapon will perform significantly differently between campaign and multiplayer."
I can tell you that, unequivocally, if 343 Industries had made Team Slayer TU-only, I would have stopped playing Reach then and there. That's how strongly I feel about it being bad design. What you explain here gets to the heart of the reason--they buffed weapons that were already top of the metagame.
What are you even trying to say here? "I would have stopped playing Reach then and there", meanwhile the TU made the game much better for me, whoop de do, I don't see how anecdotes are going to help here.

I also wish some of you would actually list the "bad designs" and how "every weapon will perform significant;y differently between campaign and multiplayer." 85% bloom(and I would argue Zero Bloom as well but lets table that for now) doesn't make the Magnum, DMR, or NR much better at anything they weren't already good at. The vast majority of the sandbox still works fine vanilla or otherwise. The only underperforming weapons were the auto weapons, specifically the AR, Repeater, Plasma Rifle, and Spiker and even then only the first two were ever intended to be used in multiplayer. At the ranges that you would be using the AR or Repeater any bloom is going to be irrelevant and increasing the effectiveness of precision weapons at range isn't going to change anything.

The auto's are underpowered in H2-Reach, it is just the unfortunate truth and 85% TU settings did not help or harm them in any meaningful way, so I honestly have no idea what people are talking about with the so called "bad design" of the TU.
Lowering the time to kill (TTK) affects more than just the autos. It affects whether I should make the run for the Rocket Launcher. It affects whether I should throw a grenade or keep shooting.

Played a lot of Reach and I was very happy with the shot pacing and TTK. I worry this will stifle map movement a bit.
WerepyreND wrote:
HiredN00bs wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
No, I don't, as I said before, other playlists with TU settings like BTB did just fine. The only difference was the arbitrary split in the Slayer playlist and again, that is down to the fact that most people are not going to look twice at "Super Slayer" while TS exists, regardless of settings. Turns out if you don't arbitrary split the playlists between two versions with a nonsense name, people seemed to accept the TU settings without fuss.

85% bloom changed exactly 3 weapons and the only weapon to have any change worth talking about is the Needle Rifle still effectively being zero-bloom even at 85%. Even that change wasn't all that radical given the Bloom on the NR was never that significant in the first place and was really only a factor when you held down the trigger. Hardly "every weapon will perform significantly differently between campaign and multiplayer."
I can tell you that, unequivocally, if 343 Industries had made Team Slayer TU-only, I would have stopped playing Reach then and there. That's how strongly I feel about it being bad design. What you explain here gets to the heart of the reason--they buffed weapons that were already top of the metagame.
What are you even trying to say here? "I would have stopped playing Reach then and there", meanwhile the TU made the game much better for me, whoop de do, I don't see how anecdotes are going to help here.

I also wish some of you would actually list the "bad designs" and how "every weapon will perform significant;y differently between campaign and multiplayer." 85% bloom(and I would argue Zero Bloom as well but lets table that for now) doesn't make the Magnum, DMR, or NR much better at anything they weren't already good at. The vast majority of the sandbox still works fine vanilla or otherwise. The only underperforming weapons were the auto weapons, specifically the AR, Repeater, Plasma Rifle, and Spiker and even then only the first two were ever intended to be used in multiplayer. At the ranges that you would be using the AR or Repeater any bloom is going to be irrelevant and increasing the effectiveness of precision weapons at range isn't going to change anything.

The auto's are underpowered in H2-Reach, it is just the unfortunate truth and 85% TU settings did not help or harm them in any meaningful way, so I honestly have no idea what people are talking about with the so called "bad design" of the TU.
Lowering the time to kill (TTK) affects more than just the autos. It affects whether I should make the run for the Rocket Launcher. It affects whether I should throw a grenade or keep shooting.

Played a lot of Reach and I was very happy with the shot pacing and TTK. I worry this will stifle map movement a bit.
The TU did not lower the minimum time to kill for precision weapons, which was already slow as molasses by Halo standards. 85% still requires some degree of pacing with the DMR/Pistol(again the NR already had the least intrusive bloom) which again is still going to be slower than that already slow minimum killtime, if you need that much time to make that decision, that is on you. If you struggle with Reach decision making timeframes, the other Halo games must be nigh on impossible to play.

"Stifled" map movement has never been a Utility weapon problem not even with zero bloom, it is always a map design problem. DMR and friends have always been a scapegoat for bad maps and/or map layouts.
What I really don't understand about the anti TU crowd is why is it such a big deal to have only 80% bloom? No one seems to care about the other changes and most seem to like them. But everyone is acting like 80% bloom just kills the game somehow and here I am excited about it.
All weapons have Bloom The specific nerfs to armor lock and camo don't affect every weapon directly. In general though I would prefer the classic experience, annoying armor lock and all. I want to play Halo reach, not some altered form of it. Bet a ton of people would be upset if halo 3 suddenly had the br bullet spread removed. You could argue back and fourth if it's a good change or not but at the end of the day it would be a massive change and wouldn't really be halo 3 anymore right?
What I really don't understand about the anti TU crowd is why is it such a big deal to have only 80% bloom? No one seems to care about the other changes and most seem to like them. But everyone is acting like 80% bloom just kills the game somehow and here I am excited about it.
All weapons have Bloom The specific nerfs to armor lock and camo don't affect every weapon directly. In general though I would prefer the classic experience, annoying armor lock and all. I want to play Halo reach, not some altered form of it. Bet a ton of people would be upset if halo 3 suddenly had the br bullet spread removed. You could argue back and fourth if it's a good change or not but at the end of the day it would be a massive change and wouldn't really be halo 3 anymore right?
Most players have played TU settings on all the Halos. The TU update is not unique to Reach. 2,3,4, and 5 had TU settings. They are a fact of life for Halo. Reach just had its a little late with 4 coming only 2 years.
i am With Op and have said it multiple times on the forums... instead of explaining how nonsense and not thought out TU was i just mention a few tu to non tu weapon differneces.
1. Needle rifle . In TU the Needle rifle was litteraly turnedinto a precision assaultrifle. i have never missed a shot while HOLDING down the trigger ( a feature that was rather defesive of that weapon ) wich kinda turned the needlerifle in some ways in too a low power weapon. In normal the needle rifle and DMR balance them out very well. The needle rifle has less bloom higher ROF more magazine size a lower manification scope and that full auto feature wich made it superiour against the DMR ( on paper ) in close situations while the DMR was with the better magnification and higher damage ( also basicly hitscan but the speed of the needlerifle round is barely noticeable on the use ranges of it ) the better long range choice

2. DMR : The Tu DMR was turned into a Rifle thats too good on long range wich made it easyto even shoot and kill across blood gulch. such ranges should be mainly used for supresion while a sniper rifle would do the killing. But since evryone has such a long range weapon movement and positioning was changed negatively. certain paths and positions a rearely used because one theere would be basicly under fire by the entire enemy team. to be exact. The TU DMR allowed for spaming wich in some sense caused luck or misluck more then the occasional random high bloom hit. vanilla DMR can spam fire 2 rounds without precision loss 3 round is already fairly inacurate and should be used with cation. TU DMR can spam fire 3 rounds without precision loss and a fairly accurate 4th round too . having just a little break ( i eman litterly tiny correcting aim a little bit is often enough ) resets the bloom back to without precision loss.

3. Pistol : The TU pistol and vanilla pistols feel like different weapons. The vanilla pistol ABSOLUTELY needed to be paced and it rewarded the player with a headshot capable 2x zoom able secondary weapon. It wasnt a easy weapon to be used but a skilled player could make the change in an AR start slayer match if he was skilled enough with the pistol. The TU pistol while still fairly inacurate allowed for close rage spam wich turned the weapon into an alternative for close range against the AR ( i am not kidding )

Edit : also the value of crouching is reduced. In Vanilla one could trade mobility for the ability to deliver more damage

I really hope 343 regognizes that bungie had a different vision back in the day and that 343 also had back then kinda the wrong vision abotu the game as its shown in halo 4. I mean the fact that the TU dosent work with invasion kinda says something that the update maybe wasnt completly thought trough ? most people wil lthough agree that besides the bloom changes the rest is acceptable
What I really don't understand about the anti TU crowd is why is it such a big deal to have only 80% bloom? No one seems to care about the other changes and most seem to like them. But everyone is acting like 80% bloom just kills the game somehow and here I am excited about it.
All weapons have Bloom The specific nerfs to armor lock and camo don't affect every weapon directly. In general though I would prefer the classic experience, annoying armor lock and all. I want to play Halo reach, not some altered form of it. Bet a ton of people would be upset if halo 3 suddenly had the br bullet spread removed. You could argue back and fourth if it's a good change or not but at the end of the day it would be a massive change and wouldn't really be halo 3 anymore right?
Given that they removed BR spread on accident in Halo 2 and that change stuck around I reckon most Halo 3 fans, especially the competitive demographic, would be just fine were that to happen, but I digress.

These types of changes in the TU are not all that radical when compared to past and future Halo title updates. Compared to Halo 2, Halo 4, and Halo 5 updates, the Reach updates are pretty tame and only outdoes Halo 3 in terms of concrete gameplay changes. Changing melee system, adjusting accuracy, buffing and nerfing parts of the sandbox, its nothing we haven't seen before.

You act like the whole game got updated to MLGv7, but that is not what happened. In fact the MM settings that the TU used were themselves pretty tame. No bleedthrough didn't stick around on account to a bug with the healthpack, bloom was at 85% which didn't rock the boat in terms of overall weapon balance, it just made using precision weapons less of a chore, and the other changes were simply the removal of sword block and nerfs to Camo and armor lock.

Basically all the new mechanics added to Reach aside from sword block are still in the game, even if they are slightly reduced in some respects. The TU settings are not nearly as radical as you make it out to be.
I think we legitimately need a poll to vote, 343 says that players prefer TU but a lot of the other posts say there is love for the classic feel. I think it would be closer than 343 is telling us. I understand that 343 has to make a decision here, but I think classic should stay across the board. The fact that the mechanics change from multiplayer to campaign to firefight to invasion is so janky and unauthentic.
I think we legitimately need a poll to vote, 343 says that players prefer TU but a lot of the other posts say there is love for the classic feel. I think it would be closer than 343 is telling us. I understand that 343 has to make a decision here, but I think classic should stay across the board. The fact that the mechanics change from multiplayer to campaign to firefight to invasion is so janky and unauthentic.
You have to remember the other crowd that supports TU settings. I will avoid every mode other than Invasion due to armor lock and high bloom. The only reason I would still play invasion is that I love that game mode above all others.
i am With Op and have said it multiple times on the forums... instead of explaining how nonsense and not thought out TU was i just mention a few tu to non tu weapon differneces.
1. Needle rifle . In TU the Needle rifle was litteraly turnedinto a precision assaultrifle. i have never missed a shot while HOLDING down the trigger ( a feature that was rather defesive of that weapon ) wich kinda turned the needlerifle in some ways in too a low power weapon. In normal the needle rifle and DMR balance them out very well. The needle rifle has less bloom higher ROF more magazine size a lower manification scope and that full auto feature wich made it superiour against the DMR ( on paper ) in close situations while the DMR was with the better magnification and higher damage ( also basicly hitscan but the speed of the needlerifle round is barely noticeable on the use ranges of it ) the better long range choice

2. DMR : The Tu DMR was turned into a Rifle thats too good on long range wich made it easyto even shoot and kill across blood gulch. such ranges should be mainly used for supresion while a sniper rifle would do the killing. But since evryone has such a long range weapon movement and positioning was changed negatively. certain paths and positions a rearely used because one theere would be basicly under fire by the entire enemy team. to be exact. The TU DMR allowed for spaming wich in some sense caused luck or misluck more then the occasional random high bloom hit. vanilla DMR can spam fire 2 rounds without precision loss 3 round is already fairly inacurate and should be used with cation. TU DMR can spam fire 3 rounds without precision loss and a fairly accurate 4th round too . having just a little break ( i eman litterly tiny correcting aim a little bit is often enough ) resets the bloom back to without precision loss.

3. Pistol : The TU pistol and vanilla pistols feel like different weapons. The vanilla pistol ABSOLUTELY needed to be paced and it rewarded the player with a headshot capable 2x zoom able secondary weapon. It wasnt a easy weapon to be used but a skilled player could make the change in an AR start slayer match if he was skilled enough with the pistol. The TU pistol while still fairly inacurate allowed for close rage spam wich turned the weapon into an alternative for close range against the AR ( i am not kidding )

I really hope 343 regognizes that bungie had a different vision back in the day and that 343 also had back then kinda the wrong vision abotu the game as its shown in halo 4. I mean the fact that the TU dosent work with invasion kinda says something that the update maybe wasnt completly thought trough ? most people wil lthough agree that besides the bloom changes the rest is acceptable
The reason it was not implemented in Invasion was because of the needle rifle. The needle rifle was inadvertently overly buffed and the other weapons feel like where they are supposed to be. Just because that's how it was at launch does not make it the better version.
I am also beginning to question how many people here actually played the TU settings more than a few matches.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not flame or attack other members, this includes stat flaming.
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HiredN00bs wrote:
It's always nice too have someone's argument boil down to "people who agree with me are highly skilled" and "people who disagree with me are lowly skilled", along with the implication that one group is superior to the other beyond just the skill disparity in the game.
Almost as nice as when people don't read on a forum and then completely miss someone's argument in the first place... let me help you out:

It's not entirely accurate to say Bloom was changed "to satisfy the competitive crowd". Bloom was changed because in its vanilla implementation it's a garbage mechanic that flattens the skill ceiling in the game and actively makes the normal game modes worse. That is the reason the "competitive crowd" criticized it. Vanilla bloom was like taking everything bad about the huge BR spread of Halo 3 and dialing it up to 11.

Mechanics that flatten out the possible skill ceiling in your game by turning the combat into an RNG-fest are bad for the game, period. Doesn't matter if you are a skilled or a trash player. The game itself is worse when you are rewarded by RNG and not your skill. That's like game design 101.
Bloom is not a well designed mechanic. It doesn't achieve its design goal of adding skill by forcing players to control rate of fire and rewarding them for doing so. Rather, it frequently rewards spam and degrades many 1v1 firefights to RNGesus prayer fiestas, and thus lowers the skill ceiling in the game - or at least makes it less significant. There are tons of clips of this on youtube and anyone who played Reach knows exactly what I'm talking about.

A side effect of this reality is that it tends to be "mostly lower skill players" who like it. That is not why it is a bad mechanic nor is it particularly significant to my argument, it is simply a result of the particular way in which bloom is a bad mechanic for the game.

Less bloom = player skill matters more in determining the outcome of fights = the game itself is better.
Karim wrote:
Halo Reach was designed from the ground up with the bloom mechanic. Reducing or removing it completely changes the game. I know this was originally done to satisfy the "competitive" crowd, But that's totally not needed here. The "Competitive" crowd has halo ce, halo 2, halo 2 anni, halo 3 and heck even halo 4 that they can play without the bloom mechanic. The TU just disjoints how halo reach feels. You learn the game mechanics in the campaign only to find that the mp with the tu is a completely different game. It sucks. I've been against the TU from the time it was first introduced. Please keep it out of the MCC. It is completely unneeded and just makes things confusing for new players and really makes the MP side of reach feel bad.
This is the problem with TU settings, it brings out these people who only have fun when they're winning and rag on people for their K/D. How many times do we have to talk about reach never being intended for Ultra-Competitive play? Do I think there should be TU and competitive playlists? sure, but it doesn't need to be that way across the board
Karim wrote:
Halo Reach was designed from the ground up with the bloom mechanic. Reducing or removing it completely changes the game. I know this was originally done to satisfy the "competitive" crowd, But that's totally not needed here. The "Competitive" crowd has halo ce, halo 2, halo 2 anni, halo 3 and heck even halo 4 that they can play without the bloom mechanic. The TU just disjoints how halo reach feels. You learn the game mechanics in the campaign only to find that the mp with the tu is a completely different game. It sucks. I've been against the TU from the time it was first introduced. Please keep it out of the MCC. It is completely unneeded and just makes things confusing for new players and really makes the MP side of reach feel bad.
This is the problem with TU settings, it brings out these people who only have fun when they're winning and rag on people for their K/D. How many times do we have to talk about reach never being intended for Ultra-Competitive play? Do I think there should be TU and competitive playlists? sure, but it doesn't need to be that way across the board
TU is not about making the game competitive. It's about making the game BALANCED.
I'm definitely happy with the TU update being the default reach settings!
Karim wrote:
Halo Reach was designed from the ground up with the bloom mechanic. Reducing or removing it completely changes the game. I know this was originally done to satisfy the "competitive" crowd, But that's totally not needed here. The "Competitive" crowd has halo ce, halo 2, halo 2 anni, halo 3 and heck even halo 4 that they can play without the bloom mechanic. The TU just disjoints how halo reach feels. You learn the game mechanics in the campaign only to find that the mp with the tu is a completely different game. It sucks. I've been against the TU from the time it was first introduced. Please keep it out of the MCC. It is completely unneeded and just makes things confusing for new players and really makes the MP side of reach feel bad.
This is the problem with TU settings, it brings out these people who only have fun when they're winning and rag on people for their K/D. How many times do we have to talk about reach never being intended for Ultra-Competitive play? Do I think there should be TU and competitive playlists? sure, but it doesn't need to be that way across the board
Funny how fast you pulled that defense. As if saying that they are "these people" disqualifies his points. Fact of the matter is bloom was there to help less skilled players and it does so too much by bringing down people who can aim.
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