Forums / Games / Halo: The Master Chief Collection (Xbox)

Please remove the TU settings for Reach

OP SamTheWeebo

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MrRewz wrote:
tu is only needed For ranked enough said.
incorrect, the armor ability changes alone are enough of a reason to keep TU settings in Social. And a small reminder- 75% Bloom was a thing that existed in TU which was the primary social standard.
Bloom is objectively awful and the entire experience should be NBNS.

Is this even a real topic.
Bloom is objectively awful and the entire experience should be NBNS.

Is this even a real topic.
I've always been down with the No Bloom aspect for the precision weapons, but I like Sprint.
Purged wrote:
... And a small reminder, 75% Bloom was a thing that existed in TU which was the primary social standard.
...
TU settings still had bloom, it was slightly toned down to like 80% and made the game way better.
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Just to clarify on the Bloom side, the TU adjusted the maximal reticle expansion on the DMR, Needle Rifle, and Pistol based on a percentage of the original value, set at 100%. That percentage change was 85%.
I know I'm probably one of the only 4, maybe 5 people who actually like bloom as a mechanic. But I've got to say that TU Reach handled it much better than vanilla Reach. Base bloom was just way too much. The tuning made it almost perfect. You still have to pace your shots when shooting someone on the other side of Blood Gultch, but at the same time your reticle doesn't take up the whole screen after two shots from a magnum.
Rhydon65 wrote:
I know I'm probably one of the only 4, maybe 5 people who actually like bloom as a mechanic. But I've got to say that TU Reach handled it much better than vanilla Reach. Base bloom was just way too much. The tuning made it almost perfect. You still have to pace your shots when shooting someone on the other side of Blood Gultch, but at the same time your reticle doesn't take up the whole screen after two shots from a magnum.
But there's still an element of randomness, which is objectively a bad thing...
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not post spam.
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
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Rhydon65 wrote:
I know I'm probably one of the only 4, maybe 5 people who actually like bloom as a mechanic. But I've got to say that TU Reach handled it much better than vanilla Reach. Base bloom was just way too much. The tuning made it almost perfect. You still have to pace your shots when shooting someone on the other side of Blood Gultch, but at the same time your reticle doesn't take up the whole screen after two shots from a magnum.
I'll be honest too, I don't mind the bloom concept as a means to help curb semi-auto fire precision weapons with high fire rates from being to effective at long-range (assuming that's not their intended role), but the bloom's expansion shouldn't start until a certain fire rate threshold is met and the expansion should be somewhat slow to grow, but fairly quick to reset while the max expansion should be reasonably minor. In my opinion, it just needs to primarily help curb cross-map accuracy and effectiveness while firing at a high rate of fire instead of being a major combat factor at any and all ranges.

Though, worth mentioning that another means to curb that accuracy and effectiveness without an element of randomness would be to instead give the semi-auto precision weapon with high fire rates a small vertical drift once a particular fire rate threshold was met. I personally prefer this method over the bloom mechanic as it's predictable which means players can compensate for it more easily. I don't like it when vertical drift is mixed with bloom.

The problem in Reach is that the bloom introduces too much randomness; especially, at 100% bloom. 85% helped tremendously, but even then I personally thought it was too much for the Magnum and certainly for the DMR which should be intended as a dependable long-range precision weapon precisely like how Halo 5 has it designed.
eLantern wrote:
Bloom is objectively awful and the entire experience should be NBNS.
I've always been down with the No Bloom aspect for the precision weapons, but I like Sprint.
Why.
I like the risk/reward depth it adds to the game-play. I like the more immersive feeling I get from it. And I'm a huge fan of how it was implemented into Halo 5. I wasn't the biggest fan of how it was implemented in Reach, but I was glad it was finally brought to the franchise by the means of Reach.
Moved 2nd response to my edited post above^.
I disagree with OP, Bloom is terrible in Halo. All of Reach's multiplayer should be TU honestly.
Rhydon65 wrote:
I know I'm probably one of the only 4, maybe 5 people who actually like bloom as a mechanic. But I've got to say that TU Reach handled it much better than vanilla Reach. Base bloom was just way too much. The tuning made it almost perfect. You still have to pace your shots when shooting someone on the other side of Blood Gultch, but at the same time your reticle doesn't take up the whole screen after two shots from a magnum.
But there's still an element of randomness, which is objectively a bad thing...
The purpose of bloom is to restrict spamming shots at long ranges. Long range effectiveness with regular weapons, such as the BR and DMR, is why maps like Valhalla were successful in Halo 3 but don't play as well in other games. They originally tried to curb long range effectiveness with projectile weapons (replacing hitscan) in Halo 3, and latency issues made it terrible. Whether or not you hit your shots was even more random than with bloom. At least with bloom you had some control by being able to pace your shots. The original, 100% bloom in Reach restricted accuracy in all ranges. The title update fixed that.

But every Halo after that has had neither. And in large maps, this punishes players for moving any distance greater than arm's reach out of cover. I can't say what others would prefer, but when I see these two choices: Severely restricted map movement, or occasionally missing a shot when aiming at someone at the other end of Blood Gulch, the latter sounds a lot less frustrating.
Rhydon65 wrote:
Rhydon65 wrote:
I know I'm probably one of the only 4, maybe 5 people who actually like bloom as a mechanic. But I've got to say that TU Reach handled it much better than vanilla Reach. Base bloom was just way too much. The tuning made it almost perfect. You still have to pace your shots when shooting someone on the other side of Blood Gultch, but at the same time your reticle doesn't take up the whole screen after two shots from a magnum.
But there's still an element of randomness, which is objectively a bad thing...
The purpose of bloom is to restrict spamming shots at long ranges. Long range effectiveness with regular weapons, such as the BR and DMR, is why maps like Valhalla were successful in Halo 3 but don't play as well in other games. They originally tried to curb long range effectiveness with projectile weapons (replacing hitscan) in Halo 3, and latency issues made it terrible. Whether or not you hit your shots was even more random than with bloom. At least with bloom you had some control by being able to pace your shots. The original, 100% bloom in Reach restricted accuracy in all ranges. The title update fixed that.

But every Halo after that has had neither. And in large maps, this punishes players for moving any distance greater than arm's reach out of cover. I can't say what others would prefer, but when I see these two choices: Severely restricted map movement, or occasionally missing a shot when aiming at someone at the other end of Blood Gulch, the latter sounds a lot less frustrating.
Not true.

Halo 2, Reach, Halo 4, Halo 2: Anniversary, and Halo 5: Guardians all have some projectile based weapons, but they also feature hit-scan weapons too. Halo 3 and Halo: Combat Evolved had no hit-scan weapons; only projectile.

Halo 4 had a fairly pronounced bloom effect on its precision Magnum, a fairly small bloom effect on its precision DMR, an obvious bloom effect on the auto AR and I believe all full auto weapons.

Halo 5 has a very small bloom effect on the precision gunfighterMagnum and obvious bloom effects on most of the full auto weapons.

Also, other means to curb effectiveness at range is by way of a static random bullet spread, static recoil, and recoil drift/climb.
eLantern wrote:
Rhydon65 wrote:
Rhydon65 wrote:
I know I'm probably one of the only 4, maybe 5 people who actually like bloom as a mechanic. But I've got to say that TU Reach handled it much better than vanilla Reach. Base bloom was just way too much. The tuning made it almost perfect. You still have to pace your shots when shooting someone on the other side of Blood Gultch, but at the same time your reticle doesn't take up the whole screen after two shots from a magnum.
But there's still an element of randomness, which is objectively a bad thing...
The purpose of bloom is to restrict spamming shots at long ranges. Long range effectiveness with regular weapons, such as the BR and DMR, is why maps like Valhalla were successful in Halo 3 but don't play as well in other games. They originally tried to curb long range effectiveness with projectile weapons (replacing hitscan) in Halo 3, and latency issues made it terrible. Whether or not you hit your shots was even more random than with bloom. At least with bloom you had some control by being able to pace your shots. The original, 100% bloom in Reach restricted accuracy in all ranges. The title update fixed that.

But every Halo after that has had neither. And in large maps, this punishes players for moving any distance greater than arm's reach out of cover. I can't say what others would prefer, but when I see these two choices: Severely restricted map movement, or occasionally missing a shot when aiming at someone at the other end of Blood Gulch, the latter sounds a lot less frustrating.
Not true.

Halo 2, Reach, Halo 4, Halo 2: Anniversary, and Halo 5: Guardians all have some projectile based weapons, but they also feature hit-scan weapons too. Halo 3 and Halo: Combat Evolved had no hit-scan weapons; only projectile.

Halo 4 had a fairly pronounced bloom effect on its precision Magnum, a fairly small bloom effect on its precision DMR, an obvious bloom effect on the auto AR and I believe all full auto weapons.

Halo 5 has a very small bloom effect on the precision gunfighterMagnum and obvious bloom effects on most of the full auto weapons.

Also, other means to curb effectiveness at range is by way of a static random cone-of-fire, static recoil, and recoil drift.
Let me clarify. I'm referring to the majority of weapons in each game, namely the workhorse weapons like the Battle Rifle.. In Halo 3, most weapons were projectile. That Includes the Battle Rifle and Carbine. This meant that most shots fired were inconsistent, especially at range. The Sniper/Beam Rifle and Spartan Laser were hitscan, but those are power weapons.

The same principle applies to Reach, just with bloom in place of projectile. The DMR and Needler Rifle both had it. Projectile weapons were still there, like on the plasma weapons, but players could still use hitscan non-power weapons.

Then Halo 4 comes and most of the common/loadout weapons don't have projectile or bloom. Storm Rifle and Suppressor were projectile (which is why you almost never saw them...) The DMR had bloom, but it was so minuscule that it had no effect on gameplay. The Lightrifle was also projectile when hip fired, but nobody using a Lightrifle picked it up for its hipfire mode. As for the Magnum its bloom is counterbalanced by the fact that it matches most rifles in damage while having a higher rate of fire.

The bottom line is that in Halo 3, the majority of weapons were projectile. And then in Reach, most non-power weapons had bloom. Which is why in both games, both features (or problems, depending on who you ask) are so noticeable/invasive in gameplay. While they technically exist in Halo 4 and beyond, there are so many other weapons that don't have them, so they're not noted as prominent parts of the game.
Vanilla reach was terrible and had completely inconsistent gunfights. The TU was the best thing they did for that game and am glad that they are making it the base for MCC. I guarantee all the people in here that are anti TU have negative KDs or are terrible at the game lol
Rhydon65 wrote:
eLantern wrote:
Rhydon65 wrote:
Rhydon65 wrote:
I know I'm probably one of the only 4, maybe 5 people who actually like bloom as a mechanic. But I've got to say that TU Reach handled it much better than vanilla Reach. Base bloom was just way too much. The tuning made it almost perfect. You still have to pace your shots when shooting someone on the other side of Blood Gultch, but at the same time your reticle doesn't take up the whole screen after two shots from a magnum.
But there's still an element of randomness, which is objectively a bad thing...
...

But every Halo after that (Halo 3) has had neither.
^a referral to bloom & projectile-based weapons^
Not true.

Halo 2, Reach, Halo 4, Halo 2: Anniversary, and Halo 5: Guardians all have some projectile based weapons, but they also feature hit-scan weapons too. Halo 3 and Halo: Combat Evolved had no hit-scan weapons; only projectile.

Halo 4 had a fairly pronounced bloom effect on its precision Magnum, a fairly small bloom effect on its precision DMR, an obvious bloom effect on the auto AR and I believe all full auto weapons.

Halo 5 has a very small bloom effect on the precision gunfighterMagnum and obvious bloom effects on most of the full auto weapons.

Also, other means to curb effectiveness at range is by way of a static random cone-of-fire, static recoil, and recoil drift.
In Halo 3, most weapons were projectile. That Includes the Battle Rifle and Carbine. This meant that most shots fired were inconsistent, especially at range. The Sniper/Beam Rifle and Spartan Laser were hitscan, but those are power weapons.
Actually, as I said "all" weapons in Halo 3 are projectile based. This includes the UNSC Sniper, the Beam Rifle, and Spartan Laser. Your confusion is because their particle (aka bullet) travel velocity is very high which makes it feel more like a hit-scan weapon, but even the snipers require minute leading adjustments at very long-ranges.

Halo 3 incorporating projectile based weapons throughout its sandbox certainly meant having to compensate for every weapon's projectile velocity. For the vast majority of weapons this obviously lessened their effectiveness at range, but other means to lessen effectiveness were also incorporated into the game.

For instance, the Halo 3 Battle Rifle which possesses a slow bullet travel speed, thus requiring players to noticeably lead their aim when firing at even medium distances, also has a random horizontal bullet spread combined with a small amount of static recoil. While the speed of the bullet travel clearly has a dramatic impact on the weapon's effectiveness at range it's also very much the inconsistent cone-of-fire that's created from the random spread and static recoil that causes the Halo 3 Battle Rifle to be, arguably, the least effective and consistent Battle Rifle within the entire Halo franchise. Potentially poor networking conditions just make everything all that much worse.

This, of course, was all by design (minus the networking conditions), but there's an argument to be had regarding the need to curb effectiveness to such a degree and about the role of introducing random elements to a game's gun-play when it has competitive arena roots and inspirations.
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The same principle applies to Reach, just with bloom in place of projectile. The DMR and Needler Rifle both had it. Projectile weapons were still there, like on the plasma weapons, but players could still use hitscan non-power weapons.
With Reach, Bungie essentially doubled down on injecting elements of randomness into their game's primary gun-play as the means to curb weapon effectiveness. Bloom on precision weapons wasn't exactly a new concept to the Halo franchise since the M6D Pistol possessed it in Halo: Combat Evolved, but visibly highlighting it within the reticle and having noticeably lengthier optimal TTKs in comparison to the M6D Pistol not only dragged out the effect, but brought a lot more attention to it.

Not to mention, with the franchise having become an eSports FPS leader during Halo 2's primary life-span and carrying over into Halo 3's life-cycle elements of randomness were much less welcomed as they inherently detract from player skill. This was the primary motivation behind the ZBNS update for Reach. This is also one of the reasons why many modern LAN competitions for Combat Evolved tend to use the Neutral Host Edition (NHE v1.0) which removes the random elements from its precision weapons.

Reach returning a good percentage of Halo's sandbox to being hit-scan and featuring single shot precision weapons instead of bringing back the burst-fire Battle Rifle were likely why they choose to incorporate a significant amount of bloom. I didn't agree with the amount of bloom, but I understood its reasoning. And the reason to return to hit-scan weapons in the sandbox was because they're a lot less sensitive to networking conditions which had proved to be a major quality annoyance for Halo 3.
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Then Halo 4 comes and most of the common/loadout weapons don't have projectile or bloom.
DMR = hit-scan w/ bloom
BR = hit-scan w/ random static bullet spread, vertical recoil, & vertical drift/climb
M6H Magnum = hit-scan w/ bloom
AR = hit-scan w/ bloom
Carbine = hit-scan w/ mostly random static bullet spread, but potentially a tiny amount of bloom
Storm Rifle = projectile-based w/ bloom
PP = projectile-based w/ bloom when not charged
LR = both hit-scan & projectile-based w/ random static bullet spread | hit-scan when scoped | projectile-based when hip-fired
Suppressor = projectile-based w/ bloom
Boltshot = both hit-scan & projectile-based w/ bloom when not charged | hit-scan when not charged | projectile-based when charged
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The DMR had bloom, but it was so minuscule that it had no effect on game-play.
It was minuscule in comparison to Reach, but it's utter nonsense to suggest or claim that it had "no" effect on game-play.
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The bottom line is that in Halo 3, the majority of weapons were projectile.
Again, "all" were projectile-based.
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And then in Reach, most non-power weapons had bloom. Which is why in both games, both features (or problems, depending on who you ask) are so noticeable/invasive in game-play.
"Problem" is how I perceived the degree of bloom in Reach. I think randomness should be limited as much as possible; particularly, on precision weapons, as it takes away from player control.
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While they technically exist in Halo 4 and beyond, there are so many other weapons that don't have them, so they're not noted as prominent parts of the game.
H2C/H2A:

BR = hit-scan w/ essentially no bullet spread | H2C did have a ranged cut-off for bullet damage
M6C Magnum = hit-scan w/ bloom
(H2A) AR = hit-scan w/ bloom
SMG = hit-scan w/ bloom
(H2A) Silenced SMG = hit-scan w/ bloom
Sniper Rifle = hit-scan w/ random static bullet spread when hip-fired
Beam Rifle = hit-scan w/ random static bullet spread when hip-fired
Carbine = hit-scan w/ random static bullet spread
Sentinel Beam = hit-scan w/ perfect accuracy

Every additional weapon in Halo 2 is projectile-based.

In Halo 5, a title that's also got a mix of hit-scan and projectile-based weapons, they were able to remove or vastly curb the majority of randomness from the precision gun-play. And the successful aspect of the weapon tuning that occurred later in its life-cycle was that weapon role effectiveness for non-Warzone environments were able to get reigned-in quite appropriately for many of the weapons (w/ a few exceptions) without resorting to the addition of obnoxious levels of randomness.
To be honest, I just can't understand why this game can't offer some options for the different experiences. That includes datacenter selection for network inconsistencies, BR/Auto starts option across all titles (except Halo 4 for that matter as you can already select your loadout) and TU/Vanilla settings for the new Reach addition (it should also be mentioned that the original game had different equivalent playlists for each type). People just need to understand that everybody have their preferences which doesn't necessarily match the other ones, and variery and/or diversity is important. Clearly, this big MCC update only looks at what the majority wants, as you can see when there's plenty of ranked H3 playlists, but only two for Halo 2 and not even a single one for Halo 4 as if they weren't played and properly balanced back in time (for instance, ordinance was turned off and it could feature Legendary BR starts or the BTB precision options).

In fact, older Halo games featured several options, such as vote/veto tools for maps, gametypes and starting weapons, as well as regional, players and skill options (which was implemented lately in So MCC but without a way to disable or to increase its efectiveness, like in Halo 5). Even customization parameters were strictly limited in MCC, an essential part of Halo and its community.

Hopefully, the Match Composer steps will be widen even more in a near future and we will see those popular suggestions.
I don't like bloom as a mechanic, but I feel like there's some misunderstanding about how it works.

Bloom should ensure the bullet tends towards the edge of the bloom radius - people on here act like there's the same chance that the bullet will go into the middle of the radius as the outside, this shouldn't be true.

There will still be some level of randomness, and I would pick no bloom over bloom every time (and decrease things like bullet magnetism and red reticle range to account for your 100% accurate shots) but it's in no way as bad as people make it out to be.
Original reach was amazing, TU killed it for me. Maybe you guys should learn to pace your shots instead of complain. You're all complaining about rng but I didn't seem to miss because I didnt try and rapid fire the DMR. I loved reach online it was my favourite but hearing they're making it TU instantly killed my enthusiasm.
The original melee was also really good. I love how you have to know when to punch instead of blindly punching away. Adds more punishment to people punching early. Getting used to and loving a game for over a year then having you guys change it fundematelly was a horrible decision and killed it for me.
If 343 are reading please dont include TU reach.
SKILLZ9096 wrote:
Original reach was amazing, TU killed it for me. Maybe you guys should learn to pace your shots instead of complain. You're all complaining about rng but I didn't seem to miss because I didnt try and rapid fire the DMR. I loved reach online it was my favourite but hearing they're making it TU instantly killed my enthusiasm.
The original melee was also really good. I love how you have to know when to punch instead of blindly punching away. Adds more punishment to people punching early. Getting used to and loving a game for over a year then having you guys change it fundematelly was a horrible decision and killed it for me.
If 343 are reading please dont include TU reach.
Comedic post of the year candidate?
How come? All I'm saying is I like the way the game was originally designed and I got used to how it worked and I like it. I hit eclipse rank in reach but stopped because of the TU and multi team change. TU playlists are dead in reach as well why would they bring it back
SKILLZ9096 wrote:
How come? All I'm saying is I like the way the game was originally designed and I got used to how it worked and I like it. I hit eclipse rank in reach but stopped because of the TU and multi team change. TU playlists are dead in reach as well why would they bring it back
Randomness in a competitive shooter is not a good thing. Neither is an arbitrary slowing down of a genre (arena shooter) that's meant to be super fast-paced by completely unnecessary mechanics such as sprint and bloom, and one that already worked perfectly without them.
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