Forums / Games / Halo: The Master Chief Collection (Xbox)

Shortcomings of the Mayhem CE Playlist Selection

OP METAL GOD HAND

343,

First, thanks for listening to us and considering the idea of Mayhem 8v8 CE. Some of the gametypes were the most fun I've had online in some time on MCC. In 8v8, it is easier to look past a lot of the issues surrounding CE, and enjoy the chaos for what it is. You guys DID listen to us, and you took our ideas and implemented them (to a degree). For that I have to give massive credit, because now there are more bad -Yoink- modes in CE. Thank you, really.

However, you guys have seriously dropped the ball by: removing game modes from the playlist, adding PC weapons, and adding in game modes of your own. I will discuss this further.

From what I understand, gametypes were removed due to concerns over the experience of the casual player. I'm assuming that this means that there are concerns with team coordination to capture a flag, and also the users figuring out the game type. While I can see why you'd think that initially, I think its not only a mistake, but its also totally inconsistent with your decisions for other playlists. For example, learning how to properly deploy all of the accessories in Halo 3, is harder than figuring out Rat Race 1 flag CTF. Pulling a flag on Gyrophobia with radar on is WAYYYY harder than coordinating a team on RR 1 flag CTF. This gametype was the shining gametype in the playlist, removing it was flat out A MISTAKE. Furthermore you guys now have the instructions screen which tells the user how to play the objective.

THE REMOVAL OF OUR GAMETYPES
If the argument is that new players will have trouble figuring it out, I'd say that those new players won't be new forever. If the argument is that it takes too much teamwork, I'd argue that there are far more teamwork oriented games than RR 1 flag. And even if it does take a ton of teamwork (it can, but probably doesn't in most games), what's wrong with that? Should social playlists be devoid of games requiring heavy teamwork? Even though your basis isn't as strong as you may think, let's assume that it is a teamwork heavy game: so what? The best gametype in MCC period shouldn't be removed because you guys probably had a stalemate and are concerned for new players.

Furthermore, our playtesting probably had a list of players more reflective of social games than yours did. We had everything from newbies to meh players, to mediocre players, to strong players, to only a few elite players. The meh to elite players make up a substantial portion of the CE population, and are ALL more than capable of handling a RR 1 flag, or longest assault game. Additionally, on a rate basis, these guys are going to be playing the game over and over and over. Shouldn't you cater to your most dedicated players as well? Also, the removal of BC oddball is also inconsistent with other social match making choices. Oddball is not complicated, and BC is suited for a simple oddball set up (either behind the portals or in the base). There is no good reason to remove it.

What the OG community suggests:
Add back in Rat Race 1 flag CTF, Battle Creek oddball, and Longest 1 flag assault. If there is a horrible outcry (there won't be) then consider culling something then, but ONLY then

THE ADDITION OF YOUR GAMETYPES
In your playtesting, SOMEHOW you guys came to the conclusion that longest TS and derelict TS would be a good idea. This immediately screams to me that your playtesting group is not suitable for playtesting. I don't mean that rudely, and there's no shame in that. You guys have legit devs obviously who are clearly capable of some awesome stuff that we are not, but if you've chosen derelict and longest TS, there's some issue going on there. If you guys want to playtest a map, I recommend getting a handful of every skill level, starting from TRULY elite, all the way down to "just knows to pull out the pistol." Hard Way will know if the guy is truly elite or not, just ask him.

Derelict TS exhibited easily the most brutal spawn killing I've ever seen in all of my years playing Halo CE. It was so bad that the opposing team quit within 1 minute, and we had over 50 kills. We didn't even have a full team either. Do you think that if you're looking for a good casual player experience that games like this are going to have people playing Mayhem again? Derelict is the most brutal map in CE, hands down. You have to be careful with your selections on it. Longest TS is simply a horrible gametype and allows for brutal spawn traps on the flags. Longest 1 flag assault does NOT have this issue, due to spawning each team at opposing flags, and a 10 second respawn.

The addition of these game modes should have you guys seriously reconsidering how you playtest games, and your in-house decision making process on CE gametypes in general. I say that as someone who, above all things, wants the best for CE. That's the only reason I'm on this forum.

What the OG community suggests:
Remove longest TS and Derelict TS IMMEDIATELY.
Remove PC weapons IMMEDIATELY

CLOSING THOUGHTS
The longtime OG CE community has continuously sent you guys gametypes that have been, for the most part, spot on and amazing. How often are people complaining about the 4v4 playlist? There is room for a little debate sure, but for the most part that thing is great. Guess where those game modes came from? Us. This was a SHINING opportunity for you guys to take a solid, tested, agreed-upon playlist by the OG community and put it in without modification. Instead, you didn't consult the OG community, and just threw in gametypes that have surely already resulted in some permanent losses from the playlist population. We are hoping that you will rectify this ASAHP by taking our suggestions and prevent any further population loss of the playlist due to these errors.

Thanks,
Josh
I was part of the playtesting for the Mayhem playlist and the rat race CTF game was awesome! I hope people will get behind adding it back in. I also find it frustrating that the flamethrower and fuel rod cannon are in this playlist. These aren't PC style gametypes, so they shouldn't have PC style weapons.
343 please use the playlist the community tested, unaltered.

And PC weapons? Wtf lol
It’s exciting to be playing CE in new ways considering how long it has been since it’s initial release. While reaching a broad audience is certainly in everyone’s best interest, the gametype alterations here suggest that the casual player is being favored over the core players. Who ultimately has kept this game alive for almost 20 years? Who continued to LAN long after CE’s prime days? Who bought MCC the day it came out after years off waiting for online capability? Who forgave the inexcusable catastrophe that MCC was at launch and stuck it out in the hopes of keeping CE alive? It most certainly was not the casual players. I’m not disagreeing that a social playlist should aim for a more broad audience, but I think it’s ridiculous to throw out good gametypes because someone decided it’s expecting too much for a casual player to learn a new objective gametype. The funny thing is the gametypes that were added will not be enjoyed by any player of any skill level. Derelict 8v8 TS might just be the worst possible gametype and should definitely be reconsidered.
The spawn killing on Derelict TS is so bad that the last one I played my team actually hit the 250 score limit within the ten minute timer with like 2 or 3 minutes to spare. I've played maybe ten games of Mayhem slayer and in every single one the game never went to 250 because we'd reach the time limit, except for that last one on Derelict. If your team loses top control then it quickly devolves in to an insane slaughter. Even though I found it hilarious I have to agree that it shouldn't be in there for the sake of keeping things fun for everyone. I'm personally disappointed that there's no Chill Out or Prisoner. And I also wish that there could be Rockets and Snipers in the mix. I think 8v8 Chiron Shotguns would also be hectic and fun. In addition to the small chaotic games, why not throw in Blood Gulch CTF with all the vehicles enabled? Maybe I'm alone in wanting to see that though.
OP needs to learn how to give constructive criticism.

But I agree that Derelict and Longest play awful. I was enjoying the playlist with a party of 4. We ran into Derelict TS and it was an absolute buzz kill. We unanimously called it a night after that (and we won)

I think Blood Gultch snipers and Chiron shotties would be welcome additions.
TROPSTOP wrote:
OP needs to learn how to give constructive criticism.

But I agree that Derelict and Longest play awful. I was enjoying the playlist with a party of 4. We ran into Derelict TS and it was an absolute buzz kill. We unanimously called it a night after that (and we won)

I think Blood Gultch snipers and Chiron shotties would be welcome additions.
Dude you have no idea the lengths the CE community has gone to convey needs, settings, etc and communicate with 343. The truth is that the CE dev team is clearly not compromised of CE players at all, and for some reason we either get straight up ignored, or get some BS version of something we've asked for. There are a group of people at 343 who, for whatever reason, keep thinking they know the settings and needs of CE better than people who have played it for 15 years. If you had some guys on that team who truly knew and loved H1, I bet that the portals would work, the sniper being easy would be looked into, etc. Or maybe the Xbox version would've been ported. I also guarantee you that the playlists wouldn't be as -Yoinked!- up. Case in point: prisoner 1v1 has rockets in it. People specifically begged them to not add that -Yoink- in, yet, they just had to -Yoink- with the settings suggested by 15 year CE experts. Then they just left them in because... Why?

And you know, for someone who seems to suddenly care, I haven't seen you post about gameplay issues once on this forum. Nor a whole slew of you. It's frustrating as hell to fight two fronts: the fact that 343 does NOT have CE players on it's dev team, and also that you guys come in asking for gametypes but NEVER support gameplay fixes. Y'all would love to see a jetpack on Chiron, but don't give a damn about the issues legitimately plagueing the game. If you have contributed to gameplay issues, then I legitimately apologise to you. However this forum is full of people who want their jetpack on Chiron before we fix the portals.

Dude constructive criticism has been offered and ignored by these guys time and time and time again. A lot of people I know have invested a lot of time and went to GREAT lengths to try to help 343 repair it's relationship with the CE community, and those efforts have not paid off. If you're unaware, this -Yoink- relationship has existed since before MCC was launched, when Insidious BEGGED 343 to not port the buggy PC version. He told them it was a horrible port and that they'd be chasing bugs forever if they did it. Can you guess what they did? And can you guess what many of the horrible issues surrounding this game are from?

If you can't understand why the CE community is disgusted with 343, then you haven't followed this from the beginning, or even in the past year.

Yet, for some idiotic reason, we still keep trying to communicate with this company in hopes of getting this -Yoink- right.
Even if you do have valid points, they get buried in your wall of aggressive text. I get that your frustrated, but try some finesse if you want support. You have a knack for derailing any CE related thread and dishing out attacks.

This is a playlist thread, so I gave playlist feedback.
TROPSTOP wrote:
Even if you do have valid points, they get buried in your wall of aggressive text. I get that your frustrated, but try some finesse if you want support. You have a knack for derailing any CE related thread and dishing out attacks.

This is a playlist thread, so I gave playlist feedback.
Which shows me that you aren't aware of the situation at all. If you were, you'd feel like the rest of us feel. The community has tried being nice, being mean (far meaner than I), displaying our frustrations, offering advice, CE programmers offering free work. The reality of this situation is that this game has been out for nearly five years now and we are still facing absurd bugs when it comes to CE. Any criticism toward this company's handling of CE has been more than deserved. If they were handling H3 like they are handling CE, I can't even imagine.

By all means, PLEASE try to apply some finesse and get the *gameplay* issues fixed. Maybe you'll do better than we have. I think if you were as invested in this game succeeding as we are, you'd find yourself equally pissed. Hell, just try to get the portals fixed, and see how far you get. If you use threads, I won't even post.
Tropstop is right. You started off the post great, thanking 343 for implementing stuff you requested, but then went down a list of things you didn't get immediately in an extremely nasty way, and then started taking shots at the company as a whole.

343 is divided and I think you seem to forget that. They have a team working on Infinite, a team monitoring Halo 5, and a team repairing MCC, which is already half a dozen titles in one, as they are now adding in Reach and porting it to PC. Fixing some bugs in CE isn't priority right now. It would have been optimal to have ported the Xbox versions of Halo 1 and 2 back in 2014 for quality's sake, but that's not what we got and you're just gonna have to live with it until it either happens in some one in a million chance update post-PC launch or it gets emulated to the best of 343's ability.

This isn't the first thread you've posted like this, as you seem to just periodically repost new threads addressing the same things wrong with CE you put in the last. Yeah, the CE community is big, and that's great, but 343 has a lot on their plate right now, meaning they can't just cater to your needs and wants immediately, especially if you keep posting things in this vain.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
Spoiler:
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Requests a mayhem playlist, 343 delivers, still complains...You sound VERY entitled
iiBloxorz wrote:
Tropstop is right. You started off the post great, thanking 343 for implementing stuff you requested, but then went down a list of things you didn't get immediately in an extremely nasty way, and then started taking shots at the company as a whole.

343 is divided and I think you seem to forget that. They have a team working on Infinite, a team monitoring Halo 5, and a team repairing MCC, which is already half a dozen titles in one, as they are now adding in Reach and porting it to PC. Fixing some bugs in CE isn't priority right now. It would have been optimal to have ported the Xbox versions of Halo 1 and 2 back in 2014 for quality's sake, but that's not what we got and you're just gonna have to live with it until it either happens in some one in a million chance update post-PC launch or it gets emulated to the best of 343's ability.

This isn't the first thread you've posted like this, as you seem to just periodically repost new threads addressing the same things wrong with CE you put in the last. Yeah, the CE community is big, and that's great, but 343 has a lot on their plate right now, meaning they can't just cater to your needs and wants immediately, especially if you keep posting things in this vain.
Look, you guys seem to be totally content letting them off the hook for the mishandling of CE from the start. What YOU are missing is that on the rare circumstance that 343 takes our suggestions they morph them into some -Yoink-, inferior version. Furthermore, the time input they put into CE is often misguided. We can say "HEY THIS ISSUE IS BREAKING THE -Yoink- OUT OF THE GAME" and they come out with "we've added team fiesta!" Even on playlist updates, the most minor, weak update that the game can get, they just seem to think that we don't know -Yoink-. Again, case in point, they put rockets in 2 out of 3 of the 1v1 modes, after being SPECIFICALLY told it would be a disaster. What's the result? The small traffic 1v1 would've gotten is now zero.

I guess you guys' strategy is "oh be nice and that will go over better." We've tried nice, and we get jack -Yoink- in return. So, -Yoink- that. This company has continued to -Yoink- on the oldest and most devoted community that halo has. Despite ALL of the let downs they've given us, we are still here saying PLEASE WORK WITH US AND FIX THIS RELATIONSHIP. This company continuously shows no interest in that, and it'd be so incredibly easy.

It'd be one thing if they came out and said hey, we plan on fixing this, this and this, and *listening to the core community*. It'd be one thing if they said "dude we are fixing halo reach, but we are going to fix the portals in September." That's NOT what we've gotten, and its been five years. The -Yoink- relationship with the CE community is on them. Its not on us. We've been GAME to help from the start. We've been trying so damn hard to repair the relationship. Like, seriously. Our community develops bug priority lists, has offered basically any means necessary to help. We just want to be heard, communicated with, and told that some of our issues will be fixed. We want someone to represent CE at 343, and right now the closest person is Postums, and he can only do so much.

Legit the only person who's communicated with the community on these gamebreaking issues is Postums. That guy TALKS to us, communicates with us and tries to get answers for us. We LOVE that guy. Almost everyone shows him love, because he's the only dude that seems to give a damn about this community. Its sad when there's one guy out of an entire organization who seems to give a damn about its oldest community. As much as I love Postums, he's not the guy calling the shots.

Finally, you guys clearly haven't followed this from the start, and that's totally fine. There's nothing wrong with that, truly. Y'all just insist on having an opinion on this and you aren't even part of it. If y'all were a part of the CE community, you'd realize that we have been continuously -Yoink- on. If you have any other opinion, then you have not followed this as closely as you think you have. Its not like people are just pissed because they enjoy being pissed. So to y'all I say, unless you want to join this fight and actually get some perspective, any opinion you two have on this will be skewed. If you feel otherwise, push on these issues yourselves and see how far you get. Just try to get a 343 developer to answer a question on IF the portals will be fixed? I've been asking for a long -Yoink- time and haven't heard anything other than silence.
Yelling and cursing at other people on the forums isn't gonna help your problems, I can tell you that right now. You're acting like CE is the only game with problems. Every game in this collection has its own problems. You could write a 10 page list of everything wrong with Halo 3 but yet it is still the most played title in MCC by far. CE might be your favorite Halo game, or even your favorite game ever, but there are still 6 (to be 7) games in this giant collection that need to all be equally attended to.

Every community has the right to be vocal about issues in their respective games (I know I have) but when you get entitlement issues because you aren't being catered to on demand is where you start looking like a fool. Being an entitled child on the forums will get you absolutely nowhere and will devalue any advice or opinions you have on any of the game's standing issues. If you can't handle yourself on the forums and post like a civil community member, I think you should step back and reevaluate your position in the community altogether. You are one person in a pool of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Halo fans.

We all love Halo as much as you do, and we obviously wanna see legacy Halo make a comeback in its purest form, but making a complete dunce of yourself by ranting like this isn't gonna get 343 to hop on your ideas.
METAL GOD HAND, here you are making playlist suggestions when you criticize people of doing this in other threads because we’re making the wrong requests since the game is “still so broken”. Are you a hypocrite or did you finally come to your senses?
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There was a post by Postums asking the community for playlist suggestions. There was a lot of us who were behind Metal God in shaping and seeing this playlist come to light.

Metal God has been a voice and advocate for positive change in Halo CE; And while some of you don't agree with the way he is delivering the message, he has real points wholly in fact that should be respected. If you don't have anything substantial to add to the original topic then better to not post at all.
METAL GOD HAND, here you are making playlist suggestions when you criticize people of doing this in other threads because we’re making the wrong requests since the game is “still so broken”. Are you a hypocrite or did you finally come to your senses?
Metal never criticized anyone for making playlist suggestions. He criticized many of you for posting up a storm in playlist threads, while being ghosts when it comes to gameplay threads. You have chosen to ignore his argument.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not flame or attack other members.
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I seriously don't see anything egregious in the OP. I agree with most of what he wants too. Derelect, thankfully was removed from slayer, but is still a thing in King of the Hill, which might even be worse. Derelict needs to be removed entirely from the Mayhem playlist. Longest, imo, is a lot of fun. Sure, you die a bunch, but everyone dies a bunch. it's not limited to one team and it is much harder to camp Longest than most maps. I'd really like to see Longest re-added without the obnoxious flame thrower...I agree with the OP that adding the PC weapons was a bad idea. They add nothing to the game imo. My only other suggestion would be to add Chill Out to the Mayhem playlist (slayer in particular). I love chaos, not getting spawn camped.