Forums / Games / Halo: The Master Chief Collection (Xbox)

[Locked] The handling of H1 in MCC, and why OG is essential

OP METAL GOD HAND

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Here are some irrefutable FACTS about CE in MCC.

  1. 343 has chosen to marry themselves to a horribly broken Gearbox port over and over. Insidious warned them that this was a mistake months before launch.
  2. MCC:CE has been out for five years now, FIVE, and is still terribly broken. Why keep doubling down on it?
  3. The little time that 343 does spend talking about CE, they spend talking about how to "fix a few bugs" and spend essentially zero time talking about their original grand promises of the game ("Just as you remember it"), and zero time talking about making an OG caliber version of the game.
  4. The CE community still holds LANs on 15 year old CRT tvs. No, we don't do it because we like CRTs - we hate lugging them around and storing them. We do it because its the only way to play CE worth a damn.
  5. There are a few guys working on an emulator (XQEMU) in their spare time, who are somehow closer to bringing a good version of CE to modern hardware than a full 343 dev team is.
  6. The CE community got into contact with representatives from 343, and offered to get OG to modern hardware FOR FREE, while still giving microsoft full rights to the products. 343 declined.
  7. 343/Microsoft/whoever made grand promises about MCC in 2014, and got lots of people to go out and spend hundreds of dollars on Xbox equipment at launch. That launch was a disaster. Years later, 343 is now asking people to go out and spend more money on Xbox equipment, citing an effort to fix MCC. Yet... No mention of OG CE.
I say all of this to say to 343, and to everyone here, the Gearbox version of CE will always have major issues. Its not fixable. I know it, you know it, 343 knows it. So the clear solution is to get OG going on modern hardware. The solution is to take the time that you are going to spend on this broken, unfixable port, and spend that time getting OG to modern hardware and inside of MCC. Take some pride as a COMPANY in the promises made about H1, and get OG going. Emulator, port, whatever - you guys have the smarts, money, and know-how to get it done. You have CE in your cross hairs after reach. You can take this AMAZING opportunity to breathe new life into the greatest FPS game ever created, while simultaneously living up to original promises of the game, and also bailing out your predecessors who totally ignored good advice before.

Consider the decision to continue with the Gearbox port, and consider what Insidious told 343 before launch. Imagine if OG would've been considered from the start. Five years from now I don't want to be saying "what if 343 had decided to use OG five years ago, when they were working on CE?"

insidiouss wrote:
Bro I pitched this idea to them in July of 2014, four months before MCC was RELEASED. And I didn't just pitch it. I begged, I provided lists of reasons, I wrote paragraph after paragraph, I gathered up all the bugs and differences and made a WEBSITE on my own time, without any kind of compensation for countless hours of work. I threatened to stop helping. You know what response I got?

"We don't have the OG source code."
"Yeah I think it was like 'lost in translation' or something? During the acquisition from Bungie."

That was a flat out lie, to shut me up about using OG's source. But it was then that I realized I was wasting my breath.

I was also told that the project lead said something to the effect of "We screwed up with Anniversary, we want to do it right this time." My immediate response was: "Then use OG. You won't regret it. If you use PC, you'll regret chasing bugs for the rest of your careers because Gearbox is a bunch of wankers."

I will never understand why writing new netcode (when you're simultaneously developing H5, presumably which has modern netcode?) seemed harder than tackling all the bugs and differences between the two games. It was a decidedly shortsighted, catastrophic decision. I was there on the sidelines before it ever shipped. They came to me for assistance, and didn't listen.

The mere thought of MCC and how it still isn't right is mentally exhausting for me. I haven't updated halobugs.com in many months, because I'm just spent. The game will never be right. Gearbox mutilated it. If I sound a little bitter, it's because I definitely am.

Good luck in your endeavor, though. I really do hope it works. If not, Kornmann is a breath of fresh air and provides a glimmer of hope. Fingers crossed...
The point of this post is that we need to quit making excuses for 343. They've got the capabilities. H1 is in the crosshairs right after reach. I've already spent god knows how much on Xbox -Yoink-, and I'm sure you have too. Time to step up, admit that the gearbox port is pure -Yoink-, and get H1 going. You have the experts, ask them how to do it efficiently. You can be heroes to this community, or you can be forever ridiculed. I vote heroes.
Well written, and strongly worded post.

But I think you've already answered your own question.
They're on a timeline, they want to get MCC onto PC before Infinite.
While a proper, OG port would clearly be best - it would take a lot of work and time, something I don't think they're interested in doing. They'd have to cut out the entirety of CE that is already in MCC - it's not as simple as we might think.

I feel like at this point, MCC has the versions of the games that it always will. The only hope is that one day, in a next next gen situation, a standalone CE remake could be done. As things stand, we just have to hope that they continue to improve the version we have, as best as possible.

(The only possibility I could see would be if the MCC PC version of CE that they are already working on was based off the original game, and not gearbox. I doubt that's the case though, because I feel like they plan to bring crossplay into MCC eventually - and to do that they'd have to change the version of CE on X1 in MCC too).

Sorry mate, I just don't think it's within scope and timeline.
I agree the OG HCE would have been the way to go from the start but the fact remains they didn’t. This is what we have and what we have is being and has been worked on to make it better. I usually don’t say this but I’m this instance it’s better than not having it all.
AshamanND wrote:
Well written, and strongly worded post.

But I think you've already answered your own question.
They're on a timeline, they want to get MCC onto PC before Infinite.
While a proper, OG port would clearly be best - it would take a lot of work and time, something I don't think they're interested in doing. They'd have to cut out the entirety of CE that is already in MCC - it's not as simple as we might think.

I feel like at this point, MCC has the versions of the games that it always will. The only hope is that one day, in a next next gen situation, a standalone CE remake could be done. As things stand, we just have to hope that they continue to improve the version we have, as best as possible.

(The only possibility I could see would be if the MCC PC version of CE that they are already working on was based off the original game, and not gearbox. I doubt that's the case though, because I feel like they plan to bring crossplay into MCC eventually - and to do that they'd have to change the version of CE on X1 in MCC too).

Sorry mate, I just don't think it's within scope and timeline.
Thanks for the reply. I am not saying that the process is simple, I would say that it surely is not. What I am saying is that fixing this game once the RIGHT way is more simple than fixing the Gearbox port (purely because it can't be fixed). Imagine if you took all of the resources they put into this Gearbox version - all of the time and money from development to present. I'd wager that we would have had a perfectly playable OG version years ago if they had started with OG. Furthermore, we are going to be reflecting in 2024 saying "if in 2019, they had invested all of the resources from the past five years, we would've had a playable OG in 2020."

This title will still be active for years to come. The CE players don't go away. We are here, two decades strong, and I assure you that we will still be here another decade from now. When you consider the longevity of CE players, its worth that investment. In five years, people will still be playing CE. Will they be playing on a 3rd party emulator, making jokes about 343? Or will they be playing on MCC:CE, saying damn 343 are godsends?

The bottom line is also that regardless of what the dollars say (and lets be real this is not some monstrous investment anyway), companies that are as big as 343 should take some pride in their work. They promised H1, "just as you remember it" and got thousands of people to purchase an Xbox not once, but TWICE. They are investing time and resources into CE. Take the X amount of resources that you currently have set aside for CE, pair it with the extra Y amount that you need to actually rectify the situation, and make it right.

I think everything you said in your post is perfectly logical AshamanND, but it lets them off of the hook. In 2014, I got shafted. I repurchased an Xbox in 2018, and I'm feeling really shafted again now that CE is getting special treatment, and they insist on going down the exact same road that led us here to begin with. We should call them out on it.

Mr Vacha wrote:
I agree the OG HCE would have been the way to go from the start but the fact remains they didn’t. This is what we have and what we have is being and has been worked on to make it better. I usually don’t say this but I’m this instance it’s better than not having it all.
What you're missing is that no matter how much work goes into the Gearbox port, its not going to be suitable for any semblance of competitive play. Therefore all of the H1 LANs, tournaments, and game nights - they are all going to be dependent on ancient CRTs. You guys realize that they are already investing in this title right? Why would you rather see them polish a turd instead of invest in gold? They have the resources - what they are lacking is pride and vision on why this is better.
Well, maybe the only way to change it is to change their timeline.
Getting MCC onto PC before Infinite seems to be their goal.
The only way to do that is to use what they have right now.

So really, you should focus on advocating to NOT have MCC on PC finished before Infinite - because that is what it'll take to make what your asking a reality.
You'll need to convince everyone that having a proper port of CE on PC (and X1) is more valuable to Halo as a whole than getting the MCC on PC before Infinite.

I think that is going to be a tough sell - there is a lot of business sense to make the game on PC ready before Infinite in order to have the PC player base ready and up to speed.

I'm not against you, just calling what I see.

[edit]

This seems to be more of a business strategy and upper level decision type thing.
Trying to reach the decision makers would be the way to go.

However, there are a lot of people on the ground within the studio working very hard to make it work as is - given their mandate from management. They've done incredible work with the tools they have so far.
AshamanND wrote:
Well, maybe the only way to change it is to change their timeline.
Getting MCC onto PC before Infinite seems to be their goal.
The only way to do that is to use what they have right now.

So really, you should focus on advocating to NOT have MCC on PC finished before Infinite - because that is what it'll take to make what your asking a reality.
You'll need to convince everyone that having a proper port of CE on PC (and X1) is more valuable to Halo as a whole than getting the MCC on PC before Infinite.

I think that is going to be a tough sell - there is a lot of business sense to make the game on PC ready before Infinite in order to have the PC player base ready and up to speed.

I'm not against you, just calling what I see.
Their timeline is their timeline and I have no issues if they needed to table this. I'm not going to make the argument that investing into H1 is a smarter financial decision than investing into infinite. What I'm saying is these are two separate things entirely. Making promises to people about your product, and asking them TWICE to go purchase an Xbox and MCC, and not delivering doesn't really have anything to do with Halo Infinite. My argument is that: they are repeating the exact mistake they made before, and that at some point a company needs to take some damn pride in their work and promises and do right by their customers.
From what I've heard they have to recompile the entire game to make such changes. It's the same reason they haven't fixed the dual-wielding bug in Halo 2.

I think MCC coming to PC presents them the perfect opportunity to fix CE. They're already going to need major work on the game done to uncap it's framerate and add PC options, so it would present a great opportunity to work on fixing it.

I don't think they need to redo the whole of CE anniversary, they just need to readd the things that Gearbox broke. Re-add shader_transparent_generic, recompile the lighting to properly affect the bump/normal-mapping, fix the fog effects, etc. And hopefully also get a new sound system working so we can have the old sound effects in old graphics/multiplayer. I feel that all of that (except the sound system) would be a lot easier than deleting CE anniversary, remaking the entire thing (i doubt they could just port the anniversary maps over, they'd have to make them again), and then trying to get online multiplayer working on a game that didn't originally have it.
I am personally all for CE getting fixed the proper way and reintroducing the OG version of the game (with the MCC enhancements) to the MCC but I think I am going to have to be realistic here in that either they are going to have to make a choice marketing the game in which does 343 continue development well beyond Infinite release (I think we need to remember here that both Infinite and the MCC teams are 2 completely different departments and that its possible that there timelines for releasing the MCC on PC is completely different and that the motto "Ready when its Ready" might be true here) or do they push extremely hard to get the MCC for PC out before Infinite? We also have to remember who is also funding 343 which is Microsoft and that maybe if the sales of Halo Reach on PC does extremely well (on the Steam Wishlist, its still the No.2 most requested game in the upcoming releases on Steam before Cyberpunk 2077), we might possibly see the work that Metal God Hand is asking for happens if 343 decides to take all the time they need to make the MCC right the way the players want to see the collection. I mean if they can sell 10s of millions of copies on Steam and Windows Store for Reach, then the work of rebuilding CE from the OG on Xbox Original might happen then. And also if its true that 343 never had the original source development code from CE on Xbox Original, it makes porting it 100 times harder without the code. Its possible they may have to remake everything from scratch of the game.
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I agree with OP's concern's about CE and would love nothing more than CE being 1:1 with the Xbox version, but I am still holding out for the CE patch that has been mentioned. I can't remember which MCC dev update it was, but I do recall them discussing how they are working as hard as possible to bring MCC CE on parity with the OG.
Aside from graphical glitches and the pistol multiplayer buff, what else did Gearbox mess up? IMO their multiplayer is better due to the map adjustments and additions and most of the more obvious graphical issues are tied to SP content. So I'd like to see the Xbox singleplayer and PC multiplayer.
Aside from graphical glitches and the pistol multiplayer buff, what else did Gearbox mess up? IMO their multiplayer is better due to the map adjustments and additions and most of the more obvious graphical issues are tied to SP content. So I'd like to see the Xbox singleplayer and PC multiplayer.
Hit detection is inconsistent with all weapons most notable with the Pistol as it’s the utility weapon but also notable with all other weapons ( sniper rifle shots registering or appearing to but no damage.) Shotguns at point blank range do no damage and the shots miss. Rockets sometimes do not fire yet the audio will go through saying it did.

Bullets and grenades go through teleporters at times. I’ve been killed by both from a guy on the other side of a teleporter and still died.

Camo desyncs when picking up a fresh camo.
Aside from graphical glitches and the pistol multiplayer buff, what else did Gearbox mess up? IMO their multiplayer is better due to the map adjustments and additions and most of the more obvious graphical issues are tied to SP content. So I'd like to see the Xbox singleplayer and PC multiplayer.
Strong disagree from me about the map adjustments being improvements overall. Some of the minor changes were good, sure. But, Gearbox's changes to Sidewinder were terrible.
One thing I don't see mentioned often that bothers me the most is the clearly different weapon sounds when compared to the original game (sniper rifle especially, grenade throwing sound) (they are clearly using a different "sounds.map", this is the dumbest problem because it would literally be a 5 minute fix to change the sound effects back to og (assuming the mcc ce engine works like the pc and og one all they need to do is change the sounds.map to the original one) (also the transparent shader used in campaign for the lightbridge and the jackal shields doesn't work like it does on og (shields don't change colour and the lightbridge doesnt have "sizzle" effects when you drive over)
TL;DR BRING BACK THE OG SOUND EFFECTS
I am personally all for CE getting fixed the proper way and reintroducing the OG version of the game (with the MCC enhancements) to the MCC but I think I am going to have to be realistic here in that either they are going to have to make a choice marketing the game in which does 343 continue development well beyond Infinite release (I think we need to remember here that both Infinite and the MCC teams are 2 completely different departments and that its possible that there timelines for releasing the MCC on PC is completely different and that the motto "Ready when its Ready" might be true here) or do they push extremely hard to get the MCC for PC out before Infinite? We also have to remember who is also funding 343 which is Microsoft and that maybe if the sales of Halo Reach on PC does extremely well (on the Steam Wishlist, its still the No.2 most requested game in the upcoming releases on Steam before Cyberpunk 2077), we might possibly see the work that Metal God Hand is asking for happens if 343 decides to take all the time they need to make the MCC right the way the players want to see the collection. I mean if they can sell 10s of millions of copies on Steam and Windows Store for Reach, then the work of rebuilding CE from the OG on Xbox Original might happen then. And also if its true that 343 never had the original source development code from CE on Xbox Original, it makes porting it 100 times harder without the code. Its possible they may have to remake everything from scratch of the game.
There are only a few scenarios in which 343 actually uses the OG version of CE. One is a massive influx of players demand it (unlikely), or enough people call them out on their straight lies to where it results in bad press (also unlikely). This forum is heavily-pro 343, which of course is assisted by the moderating. I'm pro 343 in the sense that I was EXCITED about the product they promised us, but have been let down hard. The handling of CE is an absolute, ridiculous clown show. How on earth can the dev team be satisfied with such a piss poor product? I mean, my god. There is a dude in his basement about to make an emulator which can beat out the product which has an entire dev team behind it. Surely there are people there who are embarrassed by this. Its just pathetic that no one in a position of decision making has enough pride in his/her work to say "wow, we've jacked this up, let's make it right." In my line of work, I'd be straight fired if I handled things similarly.

Aside from graphical glitches and the pistol multiplayer buff, what else did Gearbox mess up? IMO their multiplayer is better due to the map adjustments and additions and most of the more obvious graphical issues are tied to SP content. So I'd like to see the Xbox singleplayer and PC multiplayer.
Snuggle, it sounds like you haven't played the OG multiplayer in quite a while - which is totally OK. If you had little experience with that, and a ton of experience with MCC, you'd rightfully not know why the port is so horrid. I'd say first off, check out www.halofinder.com and find a CE LAN near you, attend it. We need more people to LAN with, since 343 has absolutely no intention of delivering any semblance of their now twice-promised product.

But as far as what's wrong, legitimately everything feels off. The effectiveness of legitimately every weapon is altered, magnetism is some wacky joke that no one understands (including 343 I'm sure), others have pointed out texture issues. A lot of the online issues are latency related, and that'd be fine - but when playing the game on LAN, its still a joke. Somehow walking is screwed up? Shield flashes and animations aren't the originals, making it unclear what's even going on. The original LAN netcode (even if only used locally) is totally gone, replaced with what is essentially a horrible dream. The true feel of the game is totally gone. The meta is altered significantly. Original control schemes and aiming curves are unavailable. Map geometries are altered, all of which just make the game easier. I'm also pretty sure that several small intricacies are altered.

Furthermore, their netcode has been criticised. They know it has issues, and they've already said that they won't be using a whole new netcode, they are only willing to make small improvements. So even if they stick with the gearbox port, they've already conceded that they have no intention of legitimately fixing it.

The argument I hear here is "343 is making a marketing/financial decision in not delivering the H1 they promised." What I don't hear is "it should be straight illegal for 343 to promise a game, get people to buy Xboxes, and then deliver a steaming pile of poo." This company has asked us TWICE to buy newgen Xbox equipment on big promises about MCC. They have an AMAZINGLY CAPABLE dev team. What the company has done is straight up lie to everyone about H1 (and H2 as well it seems). They take no pride or responsibilities in their promises. Mods can lock me, but its INARGUABLE.

Again, Frank O'Connor in 2014: "Halo CE, just as you remember it." Is there anyone from the dev team who can tell me, point blank, does 343 intend to deliver the promised product? Will you concede that 343 promised one thing, and has no intention of honoring it? Since you guys are committed to this road, at least admit the broken promises of your company.

The thing is, I'm not just being hateful either - I've spent well over a thousand bucks on two rounds of Xbox stuff now. I've been invested in being part of 343s supposed efforts to fix H1, as have many others, because we LOVE H1. But you guys have taken a steaming dump all over H1 and its users, and I think the rest of the discussion regarding H1 needs to be calling you guys out on how much you care about living up to the products you promised us.
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I never played original multiplayer and I don't currently have a copy or xbox anymore. I definitely agree the Gearbox netcode is horrible to the point I needed an aimbot to show me that the reason I was doing no damage was because I was aiming at enemies, when I needed to be aiming at the empty terrain a meter or so infront of them.
After watching a map changes comparison, I think the modified maps were better imo.
It did feel a bit better playing on MCC if I recall. Maybe because matchmaking was getting me closer players with better ping or something.
2. Criticisms are fine. The mods allow for players to voice constructive criticism such as this thread for the most part. Keyword is constructive, when threads are simply bashing the game and providing no real criticism then the mods get involved. No one is being shunned.
3. Moderators should be chosen by other moderators.
4. Moderators do not work for 343, they are volunteers and they do their best to enforce the rules. Also be aware they don't make the rules they just enforce them.
Metal,

This push probably should have been made 1.5 years ago - when they were first starting the overhaul work on MCC.
That was the time when the sky was blue, and all things were possible - they were probably thinking about MCC PC back then, and were laying the groundwork for it.
That groundwork has long since been laid, and lots has been built upon it.
They've simply gone too far to change which base version of CE is in MCC.

You're a smart guy, with lots of knowledge and probably talent too (also clearly lots of passion).
I'd suggest you direct your energy to trying to help them resolve the issues to come as close to parity with OG as possible.

Continue to point out the issues that you and others have found between MCC and OG CE. That type of feedback can potentially help when they're bringing CE to PC in MCC. Because there will probably be updates to it (even to the Xbox 1 side too). I just don't think calling for the scrapping of all of CE in MCC, and restarting from scratch, is going to get anyone anywhere.

I'm not trying to be facetious or anything, just trying to call it how I see it and offer some advice.
MetalGodHand

Your timing is perfect to come back here and start talking about Halo CE on PC and what needs to be done to bring the real original version of this game and your insight on this game is going to be extremely important over the next few months with flighting on PC (I hope your signed up?). I do hope in bringing the next game on there which is this game after Reach is out. I would suggest start getting your close friends who is on your side and start posting on Reddit and other places in which 343 will listen closely too as well to bring all of this to attention again when flighting comes up (ticket as many bugs as possible when your in the flight of what needs to be fixed in the builds). Because your right, this will probably be the last chance ever we will get a true original version of this game because I do see after this that its going to be extremely unlikely that we will be seeing a company or any company decades from now or ever again to bring the version you guys want to see. The game is almost 20 years old and I think its time we see what this original version will look like in the modern day now, from 4:3 to 21:9 support in 4k 60 fps (with uncapped FPS included). Restore the graphics to how it was back in the original version as close as we'll ever get. Have the multiplayer rebalanced how it was back in 2001, etc. etc.

One thing I am hoping for as a new feature to the campaign (and I know this is not original to the game ever but it would fit perfectly with the rest of the collection), is to introduce 3-4 player coop in the campaign so this way starting in Reach going to Halo 4 (including it in Halo 2 anniversary campaign as well), you can play every campaign mission in every Halo game with 4 people start to end. Its already been, funny enough, attempted in the OG version as a mod just recently on the Xbox original to play with 4 people (there is a Youtube Video online showing this even though the performance is abysmal because of the original Xbox). It can get hectic but I think it brings a new challange of getting through these early Halo games with 4 people for the first time. Combining all the fixes of what the OG CE group wants to see on CE on PC (also Xbox One) and introducing this coop feature expansion would go a long way in preserving this game in the collection for decades to come.
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