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[Locked] Why Do I have to unlock the Reach armour again?

OP X19Doug95

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AshamanND wrote:
AshamanND wrote:
Quote:
"That trash kid didn't earn that. All he did was play like crap for several hours. He didn't earn a thing. My grind for that was ten times harder and I did it ten years ago. Where is my reward. That kid is trash. I'm gonna report that no life."
If you're mad at how the game is, no reason to take it out on the community - that's just a terrible attitude.
It's the same situation you're describing when you said "oh great, they got lucky in their box thingy." So why would you hold it against the the guy who got lucky off a loot box (an unsubstantiated claim) but not hold the bad system against the guy? I was only going the the emotional response you proposed and in the theoretical situation those reactions should be treated equally. If you don't want to do one thing because it harbors this potential negative response, you should also not do the other thing that invokes a more negative response either.

Also, I think you're downplaying the extremely thinly veiled animosity toward the game in that post.
Compare and contrast two quotes:
"oh great, they got lucky in their box thingy."

"That trash kid didn't earn that. All he did was play like crap for several hours. He didn't earn a thing. My grind for that was ten times harder and I did it ten years ago. Where is my reward. That kid is trash. I'm gonna report that no life."

My quote holds nothing against the person who got lucky. It's an observation that they got lucky.
Your quote demeans and insults the person. Followed by an attack and action against them.

These aren't even remotely close to the same reaction.

You also conveniently ignored my point about the player that might want to unlock items currently in tier 20, that with a loot box system, might not unlock until tier 100.
Loot boxes are never better.

Quote:
I just angry because I already earned it and have nothing to show for it.
Not true - it's still there in OG Reach. Stop forgetting that.
No, both comments are why the system in each scenario should not be in the game. You said the loot box system should not be in the game because you might see something and grow resentment. In my scenario under the current battle pass system, I might see something and grow resentment.
I don't care what your personal opinion of us is. It's irrelevant. The argument you put forth was why system X shouldn't be in the game because of resentment. Well, they both grow resentment.

No, your point about box twenty is statistically irrelevant. Nothing good is ever in the first half of battle passes. So yeah, maybe some statistical outlier wants some unimpressive thing no one else wants and he might also be the unlucky one who doesn't get it until the end and that would suck for him and only him because he is a fraction of a fraction of a minority, but mathematically more people would benefit from the loot system without no duplicates because most people want the stuff buried at the end of the battle pass and more people will get that stuff sooner in the battle pass than later because they are the majority of the majority.
So no, very clearly loot boxes are better under a ton of circumstances from the majority when it's a fixed set of items and there are no duplicates
AshamanND wrote:
AshamanND wrote:
Quote:
"That trash kid didn't earn that. All he did was play like crap for several hours. He didn't earn a thing. My grind for that was ten times harder and I did it ten years ago. Where is my reward. That kid is trash. I'm gonna report that no life."
If you're mad at how the game is, no reason to take it out on the community - that's just a terrible attitude.
It's the same situation you're describing when you said "oh great, they got lucky in their box thingy." So why would you hold it against the the guy who got lucky off a loot box (an unsubstantiated claim) but not hold the bad system against the guy? I was only going the the emotional response you proposed and in the theoretical situation those reactions should be treated equally. If you don't want to do one thing because it harbors this potential negative response, you should also not do the other thing that invokes a more negative response either.

Also, I think you're downplaying the extremely thinly veiled animosity toward the game in that post.
Compare and contrast two quotes:
"oh great, they got lucky in their box thingy."

"That trash kid didn't earn that. All he did was play like crap for several hours. He didn't earn a thing. My grind for that was ten times harder and I did it ten years ago. Where is my reward. That kid is trash. I'm gonna report that no life."

My quote holds nothing against the person who got lucky. It's an observation that they got lucky.
Your quote demeans and insults the person. Followed by an attack and action against them.

These aren't even remotely close to the same reaction.

You also conveniently ignored my point about the player that might want to unlock items currently in tier 20, that with a loot box system, might not unlock until tier 100.
Loot boxes are never better.

Quote:
I just angry because I already earned it and have nothing to show for it.
Not true - it's still there in OG Reach. Stop forgetting that.
No, both comments are why the system in each scenario should not be in the game. You said the loot box system should not be in the game because you might see something and grow resentment. In my scenario under the current battle pass system, I might see something and grow resentment.
I don't care what your personal opinion of us is. It's irrelevant. The argument you put forth was why system X shouldn't be in the game because of resentment. Well, they both grow resentment.

No, you're point about box twenty is irrelevant. Nothing good is ever in the first half of battle passes. So yeah, maybe some statistical outlier wants some unimpressive thing no one else wants and he might also be the unlucky one who doesn't get it until the end and that would suck for him and only him because he is a fraction of a fraction of a minority, but mathematically more people would benefit from the loot system without no duplicates because most people want the stuff buried at the end of the battle pass and more people will get that stuff sooner in the battle pass than later because they are the majority of the majority.
So no, very clearly better under a ton of circumstances from the majority when it's a fixed set of items and there are no duplicates
Sorry. I didn't attack a person, you did.
It's that simple.
While 'the system' may have been the cause, I was pointing out that how you choose to display your anger is entirely your choice, and is a window into your personality. Perhaps you should choose more wisely.

You don't speak for the entire community, and neither do I. But my own opinion is that not everyone wants to rock the last shoulder piece, or leg piece that gets unlocked. Your argument MAYBE holds up for firefight voice and helmet (yeah people like the Chief voice and the haunted helmet etc) - but I think that the community has TONS of people that like to choose how to express themselves in a more unique way for the majority of the armory collection. I don't think that MOST people rock ONLY the last items they unlock.
So no, my point about box 20 is not irrelevant. In my opinion.
AshamanND wrote:
AshamanND wrote:
AshamanND wrote:
Quote:
"That trash kid didn't earn that. All he did was play like crap for several hours. He didn't earn a thing. My grind for that was ten times harder and I did it ten years ago. Where is my reward. That kid is trash. I'm gonna report that no life."
If you're mad at how the game is, no reason to take it out on the community - that's just a terrible attitude.
It's the same situation you're describing when you said "oh great, they got lucky in their box thingy." So why would you hold it against the the guy who got lucky off a loot box (an unsubstantiated claim) but not hold the bad system against the guy? I was only going the the emotional response you proposed and in the theoretical situation those reactions should be treated equally. If you don't want to do one thing because it harbors this potential negative response, you should also not do the other thing that invokes a more negative response either.

Also, I think you're downplaying the extremely thinly veiled animosity toward the game in that post.
Compare and contrast two quotes:
"oh great, they got lucky in their box thingy."

"That trash kid didn't earn that. All he did was play like crap for several hours. He didn't earn a thing. My grind for that was ten times harder and I did it ten years ago. Where is my reward. That kid is trash. I'm gonna report that no life."

My quote holds nothing against the person who got lucky. It's an observation that they got lucky.
Your quote demeans and insults the person. Followed by an attack and action against them.

These aren't even remotely close to the same reaction.

You also conveniently ignored my point about the player that might want to unlock items currently in tier 20, that with a loot box system, might not unlock until tier 100.
Loot boxes are never better.

Quote:
I just angry because I already earned it and have nothing to show for it.
Not true - it's still there in OG Reach. Stop forgetting that.
No, both comments are why the system in each scenario should not be in the game. You said the loot box system should not be in the game because you might see something and grow resentment. In my scenario under the current battle pass system, I might see something and grow resentment.
I don't care what your personal opinion of us is. It's irrelevant. The argument you put forth was why system X shouldn't be in the game because of resentment. Well, they both grow resentment.

No, you're point about box twenty is irrelevant. Nothing good is ever in the first half of battle passes. So yeah, maybe some statistical outlier wants some unimpressive thing no one else wants and he might also be the unlucky one who doesn't get it until the end and that would suck for him and only him because he is a fraction of a fraction of a minority, but mathematically more people would benefit from the loot system without no duplicates because most people want the stuff buried at the end of the battle pass and more people will get that stuff sooner in the battle pass than later because they are the majority of the majority.
So no, very clearly better under a ton of circumstances from the majority when it's a fixed set of items and there are no duplicates
Sorry. I didn't attack a person, you did.
It's that simple.
While 'the system' may have been the cause, I was pointing out that how you choose to display your anger is entirely your choice, and is a window into your personality. Perhaps you should choose more wisely.

You don't speak for the entire community, and neither do I. But my own opinion is that not everyone wants to rock the last shoulder piece, or leg piece that gets unlocked. Your argument MAYBE holds up for firefight voice and helmet (yeah people like the Chief voice and the haunted helmet etc) - but I think that the community has TONS of people that like to choose how to express themselves in a more unique way for the majority of the armory collection. I don't think that MOST people rock ONLY the last items they unlock.
So no, my point about box 20 is not irrelevant. In my opinion.
And choosing to be upset on the unsubstantiated claim that someone got lucky with their loot boxes would also be entirely on you as well regardless of whether you blame the game or the person. You have repeatedly missed the entire point. If one is not a valid reason to implement a particular then neither is a valid reason to implement a particular system. If they both conjure resentment and resentment is grounds for not implementing the system then neither system works. You don't get to say that the loot box system should be held to a high standard and dismissed on the grounds of potential resentment and then not hold the battle pass to that same standard that would also be dismissed on the grounds of potential resentment.

Again, you don't understand the argument. You have double standard syndrome: You insist that my argument means every single last person must benefit in order to be valid meanwhile your system means only one single person must benefit. I don't need every single last person to like the cool things, I just need the greater consensus to be on the cool things that are at the end of the battle pass and the general consensus is that the cooler things in the battle pass are typically at the end of the battle pass. Your argument that a tiny fraction of small minority would benefit is enough to validate your own argument and invalidate mine. Well, my proposal still benefits the majority and your proposal only benefits the minority.
I didn't miss the point.
I was making a different point.

I might be disappointed that someone got lucky in a loot bin and feel meh about it. Whereas if I saw that someone had a cool armor piece that they grinded for, I would give them the recognition they deserve for putting in the time that they did.

You offered your reaction of seeing someone get an armor piece that they worked for under the current system, and your choice is to be outraged and attack that person. Think about this.

Quote:
You don't get to say that the loot box system should be held to a high standard and dismissed on the grounds of potential resentment and then not hold the battle pass to that same standard that would also be dismissed on the grounds of potential resentment.
Not saying they should be held to different standards. Just saying your resentment seems... unwarranted. But you do you.

Anyhow, coming back to some earlier points of discussion. The amount of time it takes to unlock everything in MCC Season 1 is so minimal.
The game came out on December 3rd.
This link shows that someone finished it in a week.
Granted, he no-lifed it. But OG Reach was NEVER EVEN CLOSE to making this possible.

Calm down. You'll get the stuff you want. It won't take long. It's not a big deal that everyone needs to play to unlock things.
AshamanND wrote:
I didn't miss the point.
I was making a different point.

I might be disappointed that someone got lucky in a loot bin and feel meh about it. Whereas if I saw that someone had a cool armor piece that they grinded for, I would give them the recognition they deserve for putting in the time that they did.
Well, OK, but then you have to understand that if that's not the point you were making then it's still not a point in your favor. It's an anecdote completely incosequential to the debate. If it wasn't meant to point out a perceived flaw in loot boxes and point out a perceived positive of the battle pass, then it's irrelevent to the debate.

Quote:
Quote:
You don't get to say that the loot box system should be held to a high standard and dismissed on the grounds of potential resentment and then not hold the battle pass to that same standard that would also be dismissed on the grounds of potential resentment.
Not saying they should be held to different standards. Just saying your resentment seems... unwarranted. But you do you.
OK, but your resented towards loot boxes is unwarranted in the argument put forth here.¯\_(ツ)_/¯

AshamanND wrote:
Anyhow, coming back to some earlier points of discussion. The amount of time it takes to unlock everything in MCC Season 1 is so minimal.
OK but is it above zero time? Well then, I still got cheated out of all my previous work. They could have looked at Reach's achievements and used that to decide if people can choose to have the items automatically unlocked.

AshamanND wrote:
Calm down. You'll get the stuff you want. It won't take long. It's not a big deal that everyone needs to play to unlock things.
OK, but maybe you should also calm down and admit that my stance is valid and that some people feel cheated because they already did all the work into Reach and now have nothing in the game to show for it and that is legitimately frustrating for people who care.
Quote:
OK but is it above zero time? Well then, I still got cheated out of all my previous work. They could have looked at Reach's achievements and used that to decide if people can choose to have the items automatically unlocked.
You aren't cheated out of anything.
It's still in the original game.

Quote:
and now have nothing in the game to show for it
I've said before it would have been good to have something to show appreciation for all their hard work - but only for inheritors. That's just my opinion though.
Quote:
OK, but your resented towards loot boxes is unwarranted in the argument put forth here.
No it's not. If you look around the internet, there is a collective agreement among the vast majority of gamers that loot boxes are the WORST way to unlock things.
Worse than a battle pass.

If you can't see that, you are blind to what is around you, and I can't help you at all, and there's no point in continuing this debate.
AshamanND wrote:
Quote:
OK but is it above zero time? Well then, I still got cheated out of all my previous work. They could have looked at Reach's achievements and used that to decide if people can choose to have the items automatically unlocked.
You aren't cheated out of anything.
It's still in the original game.
But it's not in the game, it's in an intentionally dead copy. There's no technical reason it's not in this game.
Quote:
I've said before it would have been good to have something to show appreciation for all their hard work - but only for inheritors. That's just my opinion though.
How about my Reach items? Seems pretty straightforward.

Quote:
Quote:
OK, but your resented towards loot boxes is unwarranted in the argument put forth here.
No it's not. If you look around the internet, there is a collective agreement among the vast majority of gamers that loot boxes are the WORST way to unlock things.
Worse than a battle pass.

If you can't see that, you are blind to what is around you, and I can't help you at all, and there's no point in continuing this debate.
Yes your resentment here is absolutely unwarranted. The problem with loot boxes in general are scummy practices around them and abusive systems. As I said, and I will repeat again, the argument put forth here, the loot box system I have proposed where there are no duplicates, nothing to buy, and they are filled with the same items as the battle pass, is receiving unwarranted resentment from you.

Fact is, you don't have a legitimate rebuttal so you will continue to attack generalities of other loot box systems rather than the one being argued here. More people would get the stuff that they want faster under the loot box system I laid out. You can't argue this, that is a fact proven by mathematical laws of probabilities.
AshamanND wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
OK, but your resented towards loot boxes is unwarranted in the argument put forth here.
No it's not. If you look around the internet, there is a collective agreement among the vast majority of gamers that loot boxes are the WORST way to unlock things.
Worse than a battle pass.

If you can't see that, you are blind to what is around you, and I can't help you at all, and there's no point in continuing this debate.
Yes your resentment here is absolutely unwarranted. The problem with loot boxes in general are scummy practices around them and abusive systems. As I said, and I will repeat again, the argument put forth here, the loot box system I have proposed where there are no duplicates, nothing to buy, and they are filled with the same items as the battle pass, is receiving unwarranted resentment from you.

Fact is, you don't have a legitimate rebuttal so you will continue to attack generalities of other loot box systems rather than the one being argued here. More people would get the stuff that they want faster under the loot box system I laid out. You can't argue this, that is a fact proven by mathematical laws of probabilities.
Stop trying to sound smart by talking about math and probabilities.
We all understand how those work.
I know what you're saying about 'more people get the higher tier items sooner' based on math. That's not up for debate, it never was.
But even then, you can't say that people don't enjoy the lower tier items just as much.
You ASLO can't say that the probability of unlocking higher tier items would be equal.
Likely, IF they had chosen a loot box system as you describe, the drop rate for those higher tier items would be super low. Like to the point of most people not going to unlock them until they were approaching 80 or 90+ tier status anyway. Yeah, it might be faster than tier 100, but not by much. So you would be switching to a luck based inferior system - where no item has any value because it's all random, instead of a merit based reward system for performance - with very little actual return for making this change.

What I'm talking about is how I think most people feel about the items they receive.
I personally believe that more people feel satisfied by earning something, rather than being randomly given something.

Halo 5 had loot boxes that could've been free (by playing and earning points) or paid - user choice.
No one really liked it.
Everyone wanted to earn things, not be randomly given things.

People enjoyed unlocking Helioskrill by having completed the MCC campaigns on legendary.
Then it got added to the regular req pool.
There was backlash. It made Helioskrill worthless.

People want to be reward for their actions, not for chance. In my opinion.

[edit]To be clear - I do not like the current 'battle pass' type system. There are better ways, that have been described in this thread and others.
But I will take it every time over random loot boxes.
would have been nice to see the progression system from day one when MCC launched in 2014. of course that would have meant nothing with how broken the game was back then. but then the grind to unlock the armor wouldnt have been so bad. Had the game worked like it does today
would have been nice to see the progression system from day one when MCC launched in 2014. of course that would have meant nothing with how broken the game was back then. but then the grind to unlock the armor wouldnt have been so bad. Had the game worked like it does today
The grind to unlock the few unlockables isn't bad at all. In fact it is and was harder to get rock and coil hit back achievement than to unlock the few cosmetics they added.
AshamanND wrote:
Yes your resentment here is absolutely unwarranted. The problem with loot boxes in general are scummy practices around them and abusive systems. As I said, and I will repeat again, the argument put forth here, the loot box system I have proposed where there are no duplicates, nothing to buy, and they are filled with the same items as the battle pass, is receiving unwarranted resentment from you.

Fact is, you don't have a legitimate rebuttal so you will continue to attack generalities of other loot box systems rather than the one being argued here. More people would get the stuff that they want faster under the loot box system I laid out. You can't argue this, that is a fact proven by mathematical laws of probabilities.
Stop trying to sound smart by talking about math and probabilities.
lol what? Are you serious? No one is trying to sound smart. I'm not allowed to point out math because it makes me sound too smart? C'mon man. The answer is based on basic logic and math. So you want to throw out logic/math, and rational thought processes in favor of an argument based purely arbitrary emotional appeal, then validate emotions based on which side, like you did with the resentment and who is allowed to resent the system. No, I'm not playing that game.
AshamanND wrote:
We all understand how those work. I know what you're saying about 'more people get the higher tier items sooner' based on math. That's not up for debate, it never was.
Then why are you arguing with me over it? That's the point of contention that is up for debate. Without that all you have is an argument over emotions and I've already seen you dictate who is allowed to feel what.
AshamanND wrote:
But even then, you can't say that people don't enjoy the lower tier items just as much.
Yes I can. On the whole, overall, the higher tier items are preferred over the lower tier items. That's literally the entire premise of this argument is an argument over the end tier items.

AshamanND wrote:
You ASLO can't say that the probability of unlocking higher tier items would be equal.
  1. I didn't.
  2. I don't need to.
The only thing I need is for there to be any chance for end tier items to come up any number of spaces earlier than what they come up then the argument is won. If there is a 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance that item 100/100 shows up on item #99/100 then I've already won the argument because those odds are still better than 0%. Again, you're creating completely different standards for each system based on your personal bias. Under the current system can you earn end level items sooner? Nope. OK, well as bad as loot box odds would be,what you described is still worse than that for acquiring desired items quicker.
AshamanND wrote:
Likely, IF they had chosen a loot box system as you describe, the drop rate for those higher tier items would be super low. Like to the point of most people not going to unlock them until they were approaching 80 or 90+ tier status anyway. Yeah, it might be faster than tier 100, but not by much.
still better than your preferred alternative which offers nothing. It does not offer a possibility of acquiring desired items quicker, so it's still worse.

AshamanND wrote:
So you would be switching to a luck based inferior system - where no item has any value because it's all random,
The items still have as much value as they did before. Is your XBox worth less resale value based on whether you bought it or it was a gift? No? OK then. The value of the item whether it be it's monetary or cosmetic value is still the same. The only value that takes a hit is elitist value among people who are elitists and actively do not want people to have the desired objects so that they can have a eprceived superior status among the community.
AshamanND wrote:
instead of a merit based reward system for performance
It's not merit based on performance. You can be very bad but spend enough time and earn the items. You do not lose or keep the items based on merit. You do not have to have a 2 or 3+ KD ratio to earn said items or make progress towards items, so there is no performance based reward system. It does not exist.
AshamanND wrote:
with very little actual return for making this change.
The return for making this change is more people get the items the more desirable items and get them faster. The point about the argument to begin with.
AshamanND wrote:
What I'm talking about is how I think most people feel about the items they receive.
I personally believe that more people feel satisfied by earning something, rather than being randomly given something.
Well that's a poor Strawman argument. The loot boxes are not random in dispertion. You would get them at the same intervals you unlock items in the current battle pass. They earn the items all the same; the only thing that changes is the order they receive them. That would cause relief and satisfaction for more people overall since more people overall would receive the object(s) they desired.
AshamanND wrote:
Halo 5 had loot boxes that could've been free (by playing and earning points) or paid - user choice.
No one really liked it.
Everyone wanted to earn things, not be randomly given things.
There's a billion reasons why Halo 5 was trash and that system was game breaking. None of those complaints apply here.
  • This is purely cosmetic, nothing that affects gameplay.
  • There is no monetary incentive or paranoia surrounding the loot boxes
  • This is probability without replacement, not probability with replacement, meaning unlike H5, you would always get every single item by the time you hit the end.
The Halo 5 argument doesn't work here. It's not applicable. What you're basically arguing right now is that, "<Very Bad Person> breathed air, and he was bad. Therefore, we should not breathe air."
Well that's silly.
AshamanND wrote:
People enjoyed unlocking Helioskrill by having completed the MCC campaigns on legendary.
Then it got added to the regular req pool.
There was backlash. It made Helioskrill worthless.
  • Because it was an status symbol and then later had that status removed and people revolted because of petty jealousy that others didn't have to do something legitimately skill based, unlike the battle pass, in order to receive the item. That's not what is being put forth here.
  • You know what else would have caused backlash among those original people who earned the item? Having it ripped from them and told to start again. :|
AshamanND wrote:
People want to be reward for their actions, not for chance. In my opinion.
And that wouldn't change, just more people would be rewarded sooner with the thing they were grinding for, which is not a bad thing especially since YOU ALREADY ROBBED THEM OF THEIR REWARDS THEY ALREADY EARNED YEARS AGO.

You do not get to play the reward game without pointing out the hypocrisy of taking those cosmetic items away for Reach players who already unlocked them years ago.
AshamanND wrote:
[edit]To be clear - I do not like the current 'battle pass' type system. There are better ways, that have been described in this thread and others.
But I will take it every time over random loot boxes.
And that's an emotional response rather than a logical, rational response based on the systems offered here.
Loot boxes mean you don't know when you will get an item. Plain and simple.
The current system lets you see when you will get it.

The amount of xp needed to achieve a tier is known. The rewards are known. The time to play to earn them are known.

With loot boxes, you could earn anything, anytime. There is nothing there to show anyone if you played 1 game or 100 games.
There would be no more value to those special items, because someone could get lucky to unlock it.

You're the one sitting here getting upset that your items that you spent time to unlock aren't available to you. That must mean you value the time it took and the achievement you earned for the time.

People playing MCC want that same achievement feeling. Giving them items in a random loot box robs them of that feeling.

Gamers play games because of intrinsic feelings and emotions. Gaming is an emotional experience. It's not all about math. Just because your loot box system means some people will unlock higher tier items first, does not make it better for gamers based on numbers alone.

Again, people want to earn their items, not be randomly given them. Why can't you understand this? I hear you, that unlocking all items under your loot box system would take the same amount of time as the current system. But the process of unlocking them via random loot boxes would be significantly less rewarding than seeing your goal, and working towards it and achieving it.

"Rewarded sooner" no, you got lucky sooner, and that haunted helmet you might unlock in tier 5 now has no meaning to anyone.

"Relief and satisfaction" try pointless and devalued. Because there is no longer any way to know why someone got their item. It's all chance and no longer a measure of dedication to reach a certain level.

Stop saying things are being taken away. They're not. They are still in Reach.
Go back and play there.

Sorry to tell you that gamers play for their emotions, not because of logic. Unlocking an item with clear requirements gives a greater emotional experience than unlocking an item randomly.

Your analysis of the H5 req system is wrong. Once you unlock a permanent item, it is unlocked. Without replacement.
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The rewards are known.
Same for loot boxes.
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The time to play to earn them are known.
Same for loot boxes if you're trying to attain the entire collection. As a bonus if you only want the high end stuff, which is pretty typical among most players, you have an increased chance of getting those items sooner.
AshamanND wrote:
With loot boxes, you could earn anything, anytime.
Wrong. Only at set intervals. The exacts same intervals as the current battle pass system.
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There is nothing there to show anyone if you played 1 game or 100 games.
You have the exact same quantity of items that you would in the battle pass. Quit denying this.
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There would be no more value to those special items, because someone could get lucky to unlock it.
Again, the elitist attitude is not a compelling one. Most people that want the special items want the special items because they are more aesthetically pleasing and in general just look "cooler." The people who only want something for its status and don't want others to have it are not people of good repute.
AshamanND wrote:
You're the one sitting here getting upset that your items that you spent time to unlock aren't available to you. That must mean you value the time it took and the achievement you earned for the time.
I'm sure you think that was very poignant but I'm left wondering what point you're even trying to make. Do I value my time? Yes I value the time it took to unlock those items, that's why the game should give them back. It has nothing to do with the dubious status symbol and potential petty jealousy that you seem to be hung up on when you see someone else have it. I don't care if you like them or want them or earned. I care about me. I care that I earned them and now I no longer have them because "tMcC iS tOo CoMpLeX" to do right by the people who put in the time into Reach already.
AshamanND wrote:
People playing MCC want that same achievement feeling.
Then let them have it. Give me the stuff I already earned once before.
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Giving them items in a random loot box robs them of that feeling.
Wrong. It only robs people chasing status because of elitist attitudes and not the actual items. By your logic then if those people only actually care about personal achievement and not about status and not elitist attitudes then you would be willing to accept letting people decide for themselves whether they're game let's them take the static unlock or a random loot box. If your intent were pure and good-hearted for the reasons why you want the item, personal achievement, you would agree to that compromise of letting people choose.
I am going to guess this is an elitist agenda about perceived status but I would be more than happy for you to prove me wrong by agreeing that it should be player choice and not make excuses for why there shouldn't/won't be a choice. Just an unequivocal agreement.
AshamanND wrote:
Gamers play games because of intrinsic feelings and emotions. Gaming is an emotional experience. It's not all about math.
🤣🤣🤣 What is that even supposed to mean? "I know you're right, but it doesn't feel right." Like why even argue then? Just take the L on that point and ignore it. Why shine a light on that?
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Just because your loot box system means some people will unlock higher tier items first, does not make it better for gamers based on numbers alone.
It does if they want the items and aren't driven by lording their status over others.
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Again, people want to earn their items, not be randomly given them.
Again, loot boxes are at the same fixed intervals. Loot boxes are earned. You earn what's inside the lootbox just as much as you do in a static battle pass.
You gain a level, you earn an item. It doesn't matter whether it is known or random. You still earn an item all the same.
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Why can't you understand this?
Both systems reward the player with an item. Why can't you understand this?
And now you've dug yourself in a hole. To what you were talking about the rare person who prefers a low tier, typically unfavored cosmetic piece over the high tier, you said it was unfair they might be the sad sack who actually wants the low tier typically unwanted item and don't see it until the end of the loot box stream. That stinks, but why should they not have to work as hard as the people who would be stuck grinding all the way to the end to get the item they want? Why is there a difference in value that you accept? If an item means as much to one person as another item does to another, why should the person who wants the late tier be punished? Why is the person who treats the low tier item as their high tier item rewarded? How do you reconcile this double standard your current system creates?
Or is this actually about status and vanity rather than personal achievement or what one personally finds looks the best?
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I hear you, that unlocking all times under your loot box system would take the same amount of time as the current system. But the process of unlocking them via random loot boxes would be significantly less rewarding than seeing your goal, and working towards it and achieving it.
It's literally not. It's literally the same. If your goal is to hit max levels and collect all the items, the loot boxes don't matter. If your goal is one specific item, it is inherently more exciting not knowing if this is going to be the one. There have countless studies on this subject and addiction and loot boxes because they keep people hooked.
And again, if this were really about personal accomplishment and achievement, and not trying to lord over whatever minuscule status they think this brings them then you have to agree that the best option is to let players decide for themselves.
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"Rewarded sooner" no, you got lucky sooner, and that haunted helmet you might unlock in tier 5 now has no meaning to anyone.
Nope. You're wrong. It is rewarded sooner. You did the work, you earned an item, you were rewarded with the item you wanted sooner. You might have been lucky to earn it sooner than expected, but you earned it, therefore you were rewarded.
Reward: a thing given in recognition of one's service, effort, or achievement.
I know I made you hate math, but now you're going to have to hate language as well because that is the literal definition.
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"Relief and satisfaction" try pointless and devalued.
False. Relief is still relief. Relief is not devalued. Relief is a setting of stress to practical zero. It is the absence of stress. The value of relief is no longer having to deal with something. The only thing that is lessened by the loot box system under this situation is stress, because the odds are the person gets the thing sooner than they would have otherwise, thus leading to relief.
Satisfaction depends entirely on motivation. If your motivation was a particular item that you thought looked cool, you attain the same amount of satisfaction. You got the thing you wanted therefore you are satisfied. If your motivation was to collect all the items then it doesn't matter which item you receive at the end because your goal has not been accomplished. Your satisfaction is still zero. If your entire motivation is to have a thing that nobody else has so that you can make people jealous of the thing you have then you're selfish and don't deserve the thing to begin with.
Listen,
You obviously care about Halo. I do too.
I'm glad. It's important for us, and everyone to have discussions about how to make the unlock systems better.

Seems like we're arguing about three different points.

  1. Should all items be unlocked at the start
  2. Should all items you've previously unlocked be available to each person
  3. If not, what should be the system for unlocking them? Should it instead be RNG?
I understand your point about the first point. And to be honest, as much as I've written in the past that I don't think the items should have been unlocked from the start, it's not really a hill I'm going to die on. I wouldn't have been all that upset if they were all unlocked. But I do prefer them to be locked for progression. Let's call it a 60/40 split for me there.

The second point just doesn't seem likely to have ever happened.

I've spoken against #1 and #2, but honestly, I'm not overly concerned with them. I wouldn't be too upset if either were true, even if I prefer 'no' for both.

The third point is if they were to ALWAYS remain in a locked system, with no hope of all being unlocked - how should it be done? I don't like the current system, but it's just not as bad as RNG. This point I feel EXTREMELY strong about - and I'd wager most of the Halo community would agree that RNG is not a better answer. If you want to continue this discussion, please try to separate your thoughts into these different issues, as I believe they are very different. Or if you agree, we can drop talking about #1 and #2. Because honestly, I don't care as much about them and would happily concede on them to save our energy. Loot boxes deserve to be talked about, because they're serious.

You're not going to convince me, or most people, that a better way to unlock things than the current system is to do it via RNG. You just aren't.

I stand by my opinion that MOST people want to earn things in a specific way, not a random way. Even if it gives some top tier items faster - people wouldn't get the sense of satisfaction from achieving it. It's not elitist. It's a reward for a specific accomplishment for a specific item.

You never completed the original Reach armory, I'm guessing (because most people didn't - not attacking you). So, talking about how it would be the same amount of time to unlock all items is irrelevant for the most part.

What is relevant, is being able to know exactly what it takes to unlock the specific items that people want. The items they used to make the Spartan their own. Because many people don't ONLY want the top tier stuff. There are many other items that people want, and will be happy to receive.

Is the current system bad? Yeah. We should have choice of what to unlock! But at least we know what it takes to unlock an item in tier 70, or 50, or 100, or 10. With RNG you'll never know, and that's just not a better system. It isn't.

You'd win more people's minds to go back to saying "It should be all unlocked" instead of saying "It should be loot boxes". Even though they aren't gonna change it to everything unlocked. (You'd even win me over slightly - not that that matters).
If you're willing to concede that 343 isn't going to unlock all items for people, suggest something better than loot boxes.

[EDIT].
On second thought, I'm done replying to you. I re-read your last response and I'm even more amazed at the 'logic' you are using to defend RNG.
Let's see what other people think:
Loot boxes or Linear unlocks?
Because honestly, I think most people would prefer this:
" I want to get item X, in order to do that I need to do Y - it's guaranteed "
over this:
" I want to get item X, and in order to do that I have to keep playing and opening boxes where I might get item A, B, C, D, E, F, G etc etc. Maybe one day I'll get my favorite shoulder pads, but who knows when."
Yeah, they both suck, but I wager loot boxes suck more.
AshamanND wrote:
Listen,
You obviously care about Halo. I do too.
I'm glad. It's important for us, and everyone to have discussions about how to make the unlock systems better.

Seems like we're arguing about three different points.

  1. Should all items be unlocked at the start
  2. Should all items you've previously unlocked be available to each person
  3. If not, what should be the system for unlocking them? Should it instead be RNG?
I understand your point about the first point. And to be honest, as much as I've written in the past that I don't think the items should have been unlocked from the start, it's not really a hill I'm going to die on. I wouldn't have been all that upset if they were all unlocked. But I do prefer them to be locked for progression. Let's call it a 60/40 split for me there.

The second point just doesn't seem likely to have ever happened.

I've spoken against #1 and #2, but honestly, I'm not overly concerned with them. I wouldn't be too upset if either were true, even if I prefer 'no' for both.

The third point is if they were to ALWAYS remain in a locked system, with no hope of all being unlocked - how should it be done? I don't like the current system, but it's just not as bad as RNG. This point I feel EXTREMELY strong about - and I'd wager most of the Halo community would agree that RNG is not a better answer. If you want to continue this discussion, please try to separate your thoughts into these different issues, as I believe they are very different. Or if you agree, we can drop talking about #1 and #2. Because honestly, I don't care as much about them and would happily concede on them to save our energy. Loot boxes deserve to be talked about, because they're serious.

You're not going to convince me, or most people, that a better way to unlock things than the current system is to do it via RNG. You just aren't.

I stand by my opinion that MOST people want to earn things in a specific way, not a random way. Even if it gives some top tier items faster - people wouldn't get the sense of satisfaction from achieving it. It's not elitist. It's a reward for a specific accomplishment for a specific item.

You never completed the original Reach armory, I'm guessing (because most people didn't - not attacking you). So, talking about how it would be the same amount of time to unlock all items is irrelevant for the most part.

What is relevant, is being able to know exactly what it takes to unlock the specific items that people want. The items they used to make the Spartan their own. Because many people don't ONLY want the top tier stuff. There are many other items that people want, and will be happy to receive.

Is the current system bad? Yeah. We should have choice of what to unlock! But at least we know what it takes to unlock an item in tier 70, or 50, or 100, or 10. With RNG you'll never know, and that's just not a better system. It isn't.

You'd win more people's minds to go back to saying "It should be all unlocked" instead of saying "It should be loot boxes". Even though they aren't gonna change it to everything unlocked. (You'd even win me over slightly - not that that matters).
If you're willing to concede that 343 isn't going to unlock all items for people, suggest something better than loot boxes.
If points 1 and 2 are done and we have acknowledged at this point that #3 is not about objectivity and more about feeling, then let's find an option that is going to please more people. The emotions you are alluding to are different and depend on motivation:
  • If they are motivated by a singular or small set of particular items the loot box system is the healthier emotional experience because frustration is likely decreased because happiness comes sooner and is experienced for the rest of play.
  • If they are motivated by personal accomplishment then it does not matter what the final item is, so long as they achieve unlocking the final item. The emtional experience does not change as it can't because their goal has not been reached. And again, even if they have created a dubious belief that a certain item should be the final item towards their goal, then they are not opposed to letting people choose having a random loot box system as what other people do does not affect them so no matter which they prefer, their opinion is not clouded by what others do.
  • If they are motivated by pettiness, conceit and narcissism the emotional experience is lessened as they can no longer use this to flaunt to others for excessive boasting and ego stroking. These people are only satisfied by static unlocks and no RNG whatsoever.
So why not allow the player to choose whether they accept that tier's unlock or hit the randomizer and give them a loot box with a random item from the remaining loot pool? This pleases the most people. The only people not pleased with this option are people that don't want other people to have the items because they think that makes them superior. Everybody else benefits. People seeking accomplishment win, people seeking specific items win. The only people who don't win are petty conceited narcissists who want to lord over some cosmetic thing over others. They want to keep as many people down so they can feel better about themselves.
I'll be honest, I don't think the desires of group matter as much as the other 2 far more virtuous groups.
AshamanND wrote:
If points 1 and 2 are done and we have acknowledged at this point that #3 is not about objectivity and more about feeling, then let's find an option that is going to please more people. The emotions you are alluding to are different and depend on motivation:
  • If they are motivated by a singular or small set of particular items the loot box system is the healthier emotional experience because frustration is likely decreased because happiness comes sooner and is experienced for the rest of play.
If you only want to show your Spartan the way you had in OG Reach - but you're stuck with a system where you never know when you are going to unlock those items to do so, I can't imagine that frustration would decrease - it most certainly would increase. Loot boxes would be worse for the people that just want to look the way they did before, because they never know when they'll achieve that.
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  • If they are motivated by personal accomplishment then it does not matter what the final item is, so long as they achieve unlocking the final item. The emtional experience does not change as it can't because their goal has not been reached. And again, even if they have created a dubious belief that a certain item should be the final item towards their goal, then they are not opposed to letting people choose having a random loot box system as what other people do does not affect them so no matter which they prefer, their opinion is not clouded by what others do.
Depends on what level of accomplishment you are talking about. If it's 100% completion, that is the only scenario where this holds up. But at the same time, if your only goal is to get 100% completion, then it doesn't matter which system you use. Your system isn't better for them, and the current system isn't better either. This point does not help your argument in any way. If it's your goal to get the ITEM from the top tier, and that's your main goal, yes, your system is better for that one sole purpose. I have never disputed that.

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  • If they are motivated by pettiness, conceit and narcissism the emotional experience is lessened as they can no longer use this to flaunt to others for excessive boasting and ego stroking. These people are only satisfied by static unlocks and no RNG whatsoever.
Yep, those people suck. I agree. But being proud of achieving something doesn't make you petty. People should be allowed to be proud of their accomplishments without being made to feel bad. Having a way to show the dedication they've put it isn't ego stroking.
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So why not allow the player to choose whether they accept that tier's unlock or hit the randomizer and give them a loot box with a random item from the remaining loot pool? This pleases the most people. The only people not pleased with this option are people that don't want other people to have the items because they think that makes them superior. Everybody else benefits. People seeking accomplishment win, people seeking specific items win. The only people who don't win are petty conceited narcissists who want to lord over some cosmetic thing over others. They want to keep as many people down so they can feel better about themselves.
I'll be honest, I don't think the desires of group matter as much as the other 2 far more virtuous groups.
This is the first time you've said something about loot boxes that doesn't sound abhorrent.
But I don't think it will ever happen. I'm sorry, but not everything should just be given out. It doesn't make people petty or conceited to feel pride over accomplishing something. If they go around and talk down to people, that's another story. If they walk around with their haunted helmet spawn killing everyone and saying 'git gud kid' to everyone - obviously they're a jerk.

However, let me jump onto your side of the fence for a moment. I might support a two tiered system.
A system where certain items are obtainable by spending a point on the linear system, while other items are ONLY available by spending your points in the RNG box.
This gives you a choice of where to spend your point - towards the list of linear items, if there is something there you want. Or, towards a random item from the pool of items ONLY in the RNG packs.
Once you've unlocked all items from one pool, you're forced to get items from the other pool.
I'd suggest that some of those 'cool' items be placed in each system.

What do you think?

I know I said I wasn't going to reply, but I felt like you're latest response was finally something we could work with together.
I was shocked and pissed too at first. But then I came around to the idea and once I started playing I realized that it wasn't really that hard to rank up and get armor. Yeah it's going to take a long time but with all the stuff that's going on now a lot of us have more time on our hands. I don't think it's as bad as it's being made out to be.
AshamanND wrote:
AshamanND wrote:
If points 1 and 2 are done and we have acknowledged at this point that #3 is not about objectivity and more about feeling, then let's find an option that is going to please more people. The emotions you are alluding to are different and depend on motivation:
  • If they are motivated by a singular or small set of particular items the loot box system is the healthier emotional experience because frustration is likely decreased because happiness comes sooner and is experienced for the rest of play.
If you only want to show your Spartan the way you had in OG Reach - but you're stuck with a system where you never know when you are going to unlock those items to do so, I can't imagine that frustration would decrease - it most certainly would increase. Loot boxes would be worse for the people that just want to look the way they did before, because they never know when they'll achieve that.
No because at worst it's only as bad as the grind for static tiers. The time spent can only be equal or less than the time in the static pass because all the gear that people who grinded for high credit items have all that gear stuck in the back of the battle pass.

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Quote:
  • If they are motivated by personal accomplishment then it does not matter what the final item is, so long as they achieve unlocking the final item. The emotional experience does not change as it can't because their goal has not been reached. And again, even if they have created a dubious belief that a certain item should be the final item towards their goal, then they are not opposed to letting people choose having a random loot box system as what other people do does not affect them so no matter which they prefer, their opinion is not clouded by what others do.
Depends on what level of accomplishment you are talking about. If it's 100% completion, that is the only scenario where this holds up. But at the same time, if you're only goal is to get 100% completion, then it doesn't matter which system you use. Your system isn't better for them, and the current system isn't better either. This point does not help your argument in any way. If it's your goal to get the ITEM from the top tier, and that's your main goal, yes, your system is better for that one sole purpose. I have never disputed that.
...Yeah so I didn't say this makes the one system better than the other. I said for this group it shouldn't matter at all and definitely shouldn't matter to them what other people do. You're not refuting a point I made because you're just repeating what I said about a point I didn't make. I'm explaining the three main types of player motivations so that when I get to the next portion it can not be disputed by a question about the impact on this group.
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  • If they are motivated by pettiness, conceit and narcissism the emotional experience is lessened as they can no longer use this to flaunt to others for excessive boasting and ego stroking. These people are only satisfied by static unlocks and no RNG whatsoever.
Yep, those people suck. I agree. But being proud of achieving something doesn't make you petty. People should be allowed to be proud of their accomplishments without being made to feel bad. Having a way to show the dedication they've put it isn't ego stroking.
It is if they are trying to put up barriers to those same things so that others can not have them, otherwise you're just talking about group 2.

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So why not allow the player to choose whether they accept that tier's unlock or hit the randomizer and give them a loot box with a random item from the remaining loot pool? This pleases the most people. The only people not pleased with this option are people that don't want other people to have the items because they think that makes them superior. Everybody else benefits. People seeking accomplishment win, people seeking specific items win. The only people who don't win are petty conceited narcissists who want to lord over some cosmetic thing over others. They want to keep as many people down so they can feel better about themselves.
I'll be honest, I don't think the desires of group matter as much as the other 2 far more virtuous groups.
This is the first time you've said something about loot boxes that doesn't sound abhorrent.
...I mentioned this like two posts ago...
I mentioned just letting the player choose for themselves to participate days ago and a month ago before that...
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But I don't think it will ever happen. I'm sorry, but not everything should just be given out. It doesn't make people petty or conceited to feel pride over accomplishing something. If they go around and talk down to people, that's another story. If they walk around with their haunted helmet spawn killing everyone and saying 'git gud kid' to everyone - obviously they're a jerk.
It's not being "just given out." First off it was taken away for people who already grinded years ago, but secondly they earned said item the difference is only they got the thing they wanted (back) sooner instead of some other item.
And you don't have to be a bully to be conceited. You just have to put effort into making others not get the items they want.
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However, let me jump onto your side of the fence for a moment. I might support a two tiered system.
A system where certain items are obtainable by spending a point on the linear system, while other items are ONLY available by spending your points in the RNG box.
This gives you a choice of where to spend your point - towards the list of linear items, if there is something there you want. Or, towards a random item from the pool of items ONLY in the RNG packs.
Once you've unlocked all items from one pool, you're forced to get items from the other pool.
I'd suggest that some of those 'cool' items be placed in each system.

What do you think?
No, because that defeats the entire purpose. You're still trying to make certain items a status symbol of the gitgud squad by making them impossible to get sooner. That still feeding into narcissistic, elitist attitude. I want the things that I want and I want a way to get them as soon as possible. I don't care if other people have it. Restricting some items from one or the other is just doubling down on creating a system to cater for elitists. I shouldn't have to decide which path to grind, I should just have a chance of getting the thing I want then and there. If others would rather "play it safe" by choosing to stick with static unlocks that's fine, but there is absolutely no reason to restrict items from either group because the only purpose it serves is to use as a badge of narcissism because you're not restricting it from yourself, you're restricting it from others so that they know how "special" you are. You knowing what it means to you should be enough and if that's all you need then there is no reason beyond narcissism to restrict the items behind any grind for anyone other than yourself.
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No because at worst it's only as bad as the grind for static tiers. The time spent can only be equal or less than the time in the static pass because all the gear that people who grinded for high credit items have all that gear stuck in the back of the battle pass.
Except people want lots of different items for their spartan. They don't ONLY want the top tier items.
If you throw the lower tier items into RNG, you are actually decreasing their chance of getting them. Your point ONLY works for high tier items, and you forget that a lot of people have varied taste, and want to use various items from across the tiers.
It hurts these people.
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It is if they are trying to put up barriers to those same things so that others can not have them, otherwise you're just talking about group 2.
See Helioskrill. Again. Being randomly given something from a req pack does not hold the same value for people than achieving it from a specific task, or amount of time.
What's so wrong about having a bit of a barrier? Most games have specific things you do to unlock items, and people love that. It's a barrier, and people love it. They don't hold themselves above anyone else.
I guarantee people would be LESS motivated to work on the grind when they keep opening loot boxes and not get the top tier items, while seeing others having gotten it in their first 10 boxes.
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It's not being "just given out."
Loot boxes are exactly that. Giving stuff out, when you have no idea what it's going to be, without earning a special item, you might be just given it. (I KNOW at 100% completion it's a wash - I'm talking about along the way)
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First off it was taken away for people who already grinded years ago,
It's still in OG Reach.
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but secondly they earned said item the difference is only they got the thing they wanted (back) sooner instead of some other item.
Once again, this isn't all about the top tier items. People want other items too. So I don't agree with your point here. If I want something from tier 30, I have NO IDEA when I would get it in a loot box system. That's just terrible. There's a good chance I won't get it until much later than I should.
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You're still trying to make certain items a status symbol of the gitgud squad by making them impossible to get sooner. That still feeding into narcissistic, elitist attitude.
Nope sorry. Putting up rewards for specific objectives isn't narcissistic or elitist. It's actually how most games work and most of the world works.
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I want the things that I want and I want a way to get them as soon as possible.
This makes you sound kinda entitled. Just play the game, you'll get them.

I tried to compromise with you - but it just seems like you want to stomp your feet because you don't have your items the way YOU want - the rest of the community be damned.
I dunno what else to do at this point.
RNG is never better than linear unlocks, as a whole.

Nameplates, Emblems, should these all just be randomly given out too? Should we do away with all skill based, time based and task based rewards, and simply hand them out randomly to people that have played enough time?
No.
Should the Timmy helmet in H5 be in the regular req pool? No. It's given to those that played a certain amount of time in H5 customs.
Why do we climb the mountain?....because it is there
Is it a grind if we don't notice it? If we perceive it to be a grind then it is a grind....If we do not then guess what, there is no grind.
This all seems very philosophical
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