Forums / Games / Halo: The Master Chief Collection (Xbox)

Why does Team Hardcore remove the motion tracker?

OP Geth Pathfinder

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I noticed one user commented that free information is less competitive. What...? That makes it MORE competitive to have radar, not less. No radar means lots of free assassinations and ambushes unless you’re wearing a headset with great audio at a relatively high volume.
I don't agree. That's why you have to communicate with your team so you know where people are on the map and it also requires you to have greater map awareness and strategy so you can predict where the enemy will be instead of relying on free information for doing nothing except being in the same area as an enemy.
Ugh I’ve always hated most of the so-called “competitive” modes because of the rigid idea that it has to be typically precision weapons, no special abilities and no radar. It’s not even the same game anymore at that point. How can you even call that being competitive at Halo? If you get good at that and master it then congrats, you’re good at “competitive mode,” not Halo as it comes in it’s basic form. Ironically “competitive/MLG” mode always sucked the fun and the competition and the general life out of the game for me and my friends. Precision weapons and no radar always seems to turn the game into a pop-shot, hide and seek camp fest instead of a game of head on confrontation.
I noticed one user commented that free information is less competitive. What...? That makes it MORE competitive to have radar, not less. No radar means lots of free assassinations and ambushes unless you’re wearing a headset with great audio at a relatively high volume.

Whereas a radar gives a constant feed to both parties, making the game a very conscious decision of strategies between BOTH players who can see eachother whenever in range, even if not through direct visuals....and the only way to ambush anyone is to stay OFF the radar or be quick enough to pull it off. There is way more brains and skills involved in that.
Yeah, I agree with you. I don’t get why the competitive modes drop automatic weapons. I get that precision weapons are better in many circumstances but automatic weapons have a place in close range engagements. Its seems that the competitive crowd is very picky and needs everything catered to them. Apparently the game isn’t competitive if everyone isn’t using a BR. Remember Halo CE? Very competitive but the AR was still in the game.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
I noticed one user commented that free information is less competitive. What...? That makes it MORE competitive to have radar, not less. No radar means lots of free assassinations and ambushes unless you’re wearing a headset with great audio at a relatively high volume.
I don't agree. That's why you have to communicate with your team so you know where people are on the map and it also requires you to have greater map awareness and strategy so you can predict where the enemy will be instead of relying on free information for doing nothing except being in the same area as an enemy.
If you can’t communicate with your team and have a radar at the same time that’s not very competitive.....
Ugh I’ve always hated most of the so-called “competitive” modes because of the rigid idea that it has to be typically precision weapons, no special abilities and no radar. It’s not even the same game anymore at that point. How can you even call that being competitive at Halo? If you get good at that and master it then congrats, you’re good at “competitive mode,” not Halo as it comes in it’s basic form. Ironically “competitive/MLG” mode always sucked the fun and the competition and the general life out of the game for me and my friends. Precision weapons and no radar always seems to turn the game into a pop-shot, hide and seek camp fest instead of a game of head on confrontation.
I noticed one user commented that free information is less competitive. What...? That makes it MORE competitive to have radar, not less. No radar means lots of free assassinations and ambushes unless you’re wearing a headset with great audio at a relatively high volume.

Whereas a radar gives a constant feed to both parties, making the game a very conscious decision of strategies between BOTH players who can see eachother whenever in range, even if not through direct visuals....and the only way to ambush anyone is to stay OFF the radar or be quick enough to pull it off. There is way more brains and skills involved in that.
Yeah, I agree with you. I don’t get why the competitive modes drop automatic weapons. I get that precision weapons are better in many circumstances but automatic weapons have a place in close range engagements. Its seems that the competitive crowd is very picky and needs everything catered to them. Apparently the game isn’t competitive if everyone isn’t using a BR. Remember Halo CE? Very competitive but the AR was still in the game.
There is a very good reason the majority of the sandbox(sans the Needler) gets use in CE aside from a lack of forge tools. The AR and friends actually have unique traits beyond raw DPS. Unlike Halo 2,3, and Reach they are not hot garbage and unlike Halo 4/5 they are not just brainless bullet hoses that can turn the game into rock paper scissors. And unlike any every other Halo game to come after it, the AR and Plasma rifle are both distinct weapons with their own uses rather than simply being 4 different flavors of effectively the same bullet hose.

CE has one bullet hose, the AR, and a Plasma Rifle whereas later Halo games have 3-4 bullet hoses that occasionally look like an AR or Plasma Rifle. Holding down the right trigger with a weapon that has a reticle the size of a player is simply less interesting to play and watch than one involving a headshot weapon with a small reticle that a good player can strafe out of. What makes the AR interesting in CE is its traits beyond being a bullet hose. A bullet hose on its own it boring, but combine that with a fast melee attack that has a good range and an ability to quick camo gives it tangible tactical value beyond raw TTK.

I think you would find that most competitive players would be happy to have a sandbox that is large an varied, but that variety can't just be superficial faction based pallet swaps or have niches that are entirely based around range. Give competitive players mechanical depth like CE and I reckon they will keep and use a variety of weapons in competitive modes.
If you can’t communicate with your team and have a radar at the same time that’s not very competitive.....
You don't need radar when your team is communicating because you know the general whereabouts of where the enemy team will be. The difference is without radar you have to figure out where enemy is in that general area instead of the game telling you where that person is located. That's what adds to the competitiveness because the team that communicates better will have an advantage. Your points are mainly based on reactionary behavior after they're given that free information, but you can have that same behavior without radar once you figure out where someone is on the map and you also don't need to crouch walk everywhere trying to avoid being seen on radar.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
If you can’t communicate with your team and have a radar at the same time that’s not very competitive.....
You don't need radar when your team is communicating because you know the general whereabouts of where the enemy team will be. The difference is without radar you have to figure out where enemy is in that general area instead of the game telling you where that person is located. That's what adds to the competitiveness because the team that communicates better will have an advantage. Your points are mainly based on reactionary behavior after they're given that free information, but you can have that same behavior without radar once you figure out where someone is on the map and you also don't need to crouch walk everywhere trying to avoid being seen on radar.
You’re literally proving my point for me——it’s a more difficult game when you have both communication and teamwork AND the radar, AND it’s more difficult to be stealthy. When you have both teamwork and radar positioning you make it very competitive. Extremely competitive. Two coordinated teams in standard team slayer typically have the most difficult, heated and the closest games I’ve ever played in or seen. If one team is even slightly off their game or slightly less skilled in teamwork or strategy or pure reaction time they will lose. In “pro slayer” I’ve always witnessed matches where a team can just adapt the “let’s camp in X general spot and rotate throughout the location setting up a perpetual ambush for the other guys to walk into” and it usually leads to a lopsided game. And it works because calling out an enemy location only does so much good.

And regardless of which of us is objectively correct, the game is played a certain way traditionally. Regular vanilla Halo is played with AR/Magnum starts, shields and heath, two drags and radar. Whoever is the best at that is undeniably the best at standard Halo. And to fundamentally change any of that and call it the “pro mode” seems pretentious. MLG/Pro has always seemed like it was just attempting to mirror the way other game’s like COD and Battlefield work. An alternate game type that somebody can become the champion of? Sure.
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. Free information for doing nothing makes a game less competitive since you don't have to rely on your team or your own awareness for that information.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. Free information for doing nothing makes a game less competitive since you don't have to rely on your team or your own awareness for that information.
Paying attention to the radar is part of relying on your own spatial awareness in the game. It isn’t free information for doing nothing, it’s a strategic approach tool and every time you and your opponent view each other’s locations on it, everything about your strategy changes. It’s not some kind of major advantage, considering everybody has it and can use it right alongside the rest of the game’s functions. Relying solely on teammates and visuals doesn’t inherently make a game mode more competitive.

But, we can agree to disagree and that’s fine.
Because hardcore is really a team based experience with call outs and map control , spawn locations and power weapons the keys to success. But the key word being team
This. Communication is key.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
Regular vanilla Halo is played with AR/Magnum starts, shields and heath, two drags and radar. Whoever is the best at that is undeniably the best at standard Halo. And to fundamentally change any of that and call it the “pro mode” seems pretentious. MLG/Pro has always seemed like it was just attempting to mirror the way other game’s like COD and Battlefield work. An alternate game type that somebody can become the champion of? Sure.
Exactly. I feel like Team Hardcore is pretentious. Motion Trackers are part of Halo’s identity. To have a game mode like Swat or Hardcore without the MT is fine but it doesn’t represent what Halo is. Halo is guns, grenades, melee, shields, and motion tracker. Halo isn’t defined by only using precision weapons and no MT.
^ This is my comment but for some reason my quotes are forcing everyone up one tier.
Paying attention to the radar is part of relying on your own spatial awareness in the game. It isn’t free information for doing nothing, it’s a strategic approach tool and every time you and your opponent view each other’s locations on it, everything about your strategy changes. It’s not some kind of major advantage, considering everybody has it and can use it right alongside the rest of the game’s functions. Relying solely on teammates and visuals doesn’t inherently make a game mode more competitive.

But, we can agree to disagree and that’s fine.
There may be some skill in using your radar (although I would argue it's not very much). There's a very good reason competitive Halo turned off radar from 2001-2015. It promotes stagnant and slow gameplay. If everyone always knows when you are in their vicinity, it creates a game of cat and mouse that leaves little room for aggression and flanking. There are other more skillful ways of keeping tabs on your enemy, and that is through general map awareness and communication. The strategy that radar encourages is a) camp in an area and wait for a red dot to appear, and b) crouch walk if you want any chance at surprising your enemy. That's the opposite of an exciting game both for the players and spectators. H5 is a unique case in that the radar is considerably smaller and only shows ability usage, but I would still argue it should be off in HCS settings.
You’re literally proving my point for me——it’s a more difficult game when you have both communication and teamwork AND the radar, AND it’s more difficult to be stealthy.
"It'd be more difficult if..."

It'd be more difficult if you had to pump the left and right shoulder buttons to simulate your Spartan's feet as they run.

What does that do for the gameplay aspect? Absolutely nothing.

Same thing with radar.

As a side note, the fact that this discussion is still occurring in 2019 makes me cry-laugh.
You’re literally proving my point for me——it’s a more difficult game when you have both communication and teamwork AND the radar, AND it’s more difficult to be stealthy.
"It'd be more difficult if..."

It'd be more difficult if you had to pump the left and right shoulder buttons to simulate your Spartan's feet as they run.

What does that do for the gameplay aspect? Absolutely nothing.

Same thing with radar.

As a side note, the fact that this discussion is still occurring in 2019 makes me cry-laugh.
“What does that do for gameplay aspect? Absolutely nothing.” Except the MT has been part of Halo’s gameplay since CE.

You’re surprised this discussion is still going? This is my first time bringing it up or even seeing the topic in thirteen years of playing Halo, three years of playing online, and two and a half years of being on Halowaypoint. I felt the same as you when I saw the length of “The Sprint Discussion Thread”

I don’t feel that strongly about this. Hardcore mode can go ahead and remove the MT, automatics, and abilities. It’s just like how Swat removed shields among other things. It’s not going to change my mind that Hardcore mode doesn’t represent Halo.
Paying attention to the radar is part of relying on your own spatial awareness in the game. It isn’t free information for doing nothing, it’s a strategic approach tool and every time you and your opponent view each other’s locations on it, everything about your strategy changes. It’s not some kind of major advantage, considering everybody has it and can use it right alongside the rest of the game’s functions. Relying solely on teammates and visuals doesn’t inherently make a game mode more competitive.

But, we can agree to disagree and that’s fine.
There may be some skill in using your radar (although I would argue it's not very much). There's a very good reason competitive Halo turned off radar from 2001-2015. It promotes stagnant and slow gameplay. If everyone always knows when you are in their vicinity, it creates a game of cat and mouse that leaves little room for aggression and flanking. There are other more skillful ways of keeping tabs on your enemy, and that is through general map awareness and communication. The strategy that radar encourages is a) camp in an area and wait for a red dot to appear, and b) crouch walk if you want any chance at surprising your enemy. That's the opposite of an exciting game both for the players and spectators. H5 is a unique case in that the radar is considerably smaller and only shows ability usage, but I would still argue it should be off in HCS settings.
What you’re describing only occurs in games in open matchmaking, with teams compromised of randos. And that’s pretty rare. We literally could not see this more opposite I guess, because from my experience I’ve always used and seen other players use the radar pretty aggressively to anticipate movements, flush out camper locations, and coordinate with teammates to rush objectives or power weapon locations because we can see both visually and through the radar and estimate locations if we don’t have a hard visual. And all of it aside, the idea of a Halo championship to see who’s best while not using any of the standard settings for gameplay is sort of a pointless exercise. It’s like a NASCAR championship on go-karts or something.
You’re literally proving my point for me——it’s a more difficult game when you have both communication and teamwork AND the radar, AND it’s more difficult to be stealthy.
"It'd be more difficult if..."

It'd be more difficult if you had to pump the left and right shoulder buttons to simulate your Spartan's feet as they run.

What does that do for the gameplay aspect? Absolutely nothing.

Same thing with radar.

As a side note, the fact that this discussion is still occurring in 2019 makes me cry-laugh
If you think the radar doesn’t do anything for the gameplay aspect then you’re probably one of those players that still doesn’t really know how to use it.

As for wondering why the discussion still goes on, it’s because it’s a valid topic. “Pro-Halo” is not even based on actual Halo. It’s sort of ludicrous.
You’re literally proving my point for me——it’s a more difficult game when you have both communication and teamwork AND the radar, AND it’s more difficult to be stealthy.
"It'd be more difficult if..."

It'd be more difficult if you had to pump the left and right shoulder buttons to simulate your Spartan's feet as they run.

What does that do for the gameplay aspect? Absolutely nothing.

Same thing with radar.

As a side note, the fact that this discussion is still occurring in 2019 makes me cry-laugh.
“What does that do for gameplay aspect? Absolutely nothing.” Except the MT has been part of Halo’s gameplay since CE.

You’re surprised this discussion is still going? This is my first time bringing it up or even seeing the topic in thirteen years of playing Halo, three years of playing online, and two and a half years of being on Halowaypoint. I felt the same as you when I saw the length of “The Sprint Discussion Thread”

I don’t feel that strongly about this. Hardcore mode can go ahead and remove the MT, automatics, and abilities. It’s just like how Swat removed shields among other things. It’s not going to change my mind that Hardcore mode doesn’t represent Halo.
"Being part of Halo's gameplay since CE" doesn't actually say anything about what it does for gameplay. The reason they are surprised it is still going on is simply because competitive players have been removing MT from competitive gametypes as long as Halo has existed. It generally doesn't get brought up, because the issue was settled almost 2 decades ago.

"Hardcore" settings are not supposed to representative of Halo at large, it is just supposed to be Halo at its most competitive. There are far more kids playing Tee-ball than there are professional baseball players, but no one is going to really start to care about how good you are until you lose the Tee(Motion tracker, among other things)...
WerepyreND wrote:
You’re literally proving my point for me——it’s a more difficult game when you have both communication and teamwork AND the radar, AND it’s more difficult to be stealthy.
"It'd be more difficult if..."

It'd be more difficult if you had to pump the left and right shoulder buttons to simulate your Spartan's feet as they run.

What does that do for the gameplay aspect? Absolutely nothing.

Same thing with radar.

As a side note, the fact that this discussion is still occurring in 2019 makes me cry-laugh.
“What does that do for gameplay aspect? Absolutely nothing.” Except the MT has been part of Halo’s gameplay since CE.

You’re surprised this discussion is still going? This is my first time bringing it up or even seeing the topic in thirteen years of playing Halo, three years of playing online, and two and a half years of being on Halowaypoint. I felt the same as you when I saw the length of “The Sprint Discussion Thread”

I don’t feel that strongly about this. Hardcore mode can go ahead and remove the MT, automatics, and abilities. It’s just like how Swat removed shields among other things. It’s not going to change my mind that Hardcore mode doesn’t represent Halo.
"Being part of Halo's gameplay since CE" doesn't actually say anything about what it does for gameplay. The reason they are surprised it is still going on is simply because competitive players have been removing MT from competitive gametypes as long as Halo has existed. It generally doesn't get brought up, because the issue was settled almost 2 decades ago.

"Hardcore" settings are not supposed to representative of Halo at large, it is just supposed to be Halo at its most competitive. There are far more kids playing Tee-ball than there are professional baseball players, but no one is going to really start to care about how good you are until you lose the Tee(Motion tracker, among other things)...
Comparing Halo to baseball isn’t the same. In baseball, professional level is the real version and little league, tee-ball, etc is the more causal version for kids. Halo was built a certain way and for some reason competitive players can’t handle real Halo and need special changes. I’m getting tired of the emphasis on competitive Halo. Just look at what happened to Halo 5.
It’s not going to change my mind that Hardcore mode doesn’t represent Halo.
It's not supposed to just like Swat or Fiesta doesn't represent Halo. It's supposed to represent competitive Halo that is played at tournaments with settings that were agreed upon by the pros and other players who participate in this playlist. There's always regular Slayer which has the motion tracker enabled that you can play if you don't like it.

Halo was built a certain way and for some reason competitive players can’t handle real Halo and need special changes. I’m getting tired of the emphasis on competitive Halo. Just look at what happened to Halo 5.
That is a very ignorant statement. Competitive players can play anything and will very likely beat you in them, but they made a playlist with the least amount of random elements as well as other things to make it the most competitive in their eyes. This isn't H5. 343 are putting way more focus on the social aspect of MCC than the competitive side with their features and updates imo.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
It’s not going to change my mind that Hardcore mode doesn’t represent Halo.
It's not supposed to just like Swat or Fiesta doesn't represent Halo. It's supposed to represent competitive Halo that is played at tournaments with settings that were agreed upon by the pros and other players who participate in this playlist. There's always regular Slayer which has the motion tracker enabled that you can play if you don't like it.
I know we can play regular Slayer. My point is that Hardcore doesn’t represent real Halo. Optimizing a game for the competitive settings changes the game. Why even play Halo? Just change any game to have the exact settings that competitive players want.
“What does that do for gameplay aspect? Absolutely nothing.” Except the MT has been part of Halo’s gameplay since CE.
1. Who cares
2. In 4's and 2's, radar has been off since the franchise launched
Quote:
You’re surprised this discussion is still going? This is my first time bringing it up or even seeing the topic in thirteen years of playing Halo, three years of playing online, and two and a half years of being on Halowaypoint
You've only been on Waypoint and you hold the opinion that competitive Halo isn't real Halo
This is my shocked face.
e_e
Quote:
It’s not going to change my mind that Hardcore mode doesn’t represent Halo.
Does that give you some kind of sense of superiority, there? "It's not R33L Halo!"

You can go ahead and hang your hat on that one I guess, the rest of us (by that I mean 1/10th the population of the default TS playlist) will play a tournament version of Halo that's fast-paced and visually exciting. Unless 343 in their infinite wisdom decides to meddle and throw radar back into competitive, further driving the scene into the dirt. Hint: there's a reason they forfeited control back to grassroots organizers, it's almost like we know what we're doing or something.
If you think the radar doesn’t do anything for the gameplay aspect then you’re probably one of those players that still doesn’t really know how to use it.
I don't know how to stand there and wait for someone to run by me then assassinate them, huh? I'll bet you teabag someone super hard when you get to to that, it must be such a childish thrill for you.

Stay in default TS if you want radar, plain and simple. Don't -Yoink- everything up for us competitive players.
Quote:
As for wondering why the discussion still goes on, it’s because it’s a valid topic. “Pro-Halo” is not even based on actual Halo. It’s sort of ludicrous.
Maybe "actual" Halo is bad when good people start playing it.
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