Why does Team Hardcore remove the motion tracker?

Geth Pathfinder wrote:

My point is that Hardcore doesn’t represent real Halo. Optimizing a game for the competitive settings changes the game. Why even play Halo? Just change any game to have the exact settings that competitive players want.

Real Halo? What does that even mean? Halo isn't comprised with just one universal setting. Real Halo to someone could mean plasma pistol starts in CE or SMG starts in H2 BTB because those were some of the default settings. Halo is composed of numerous settings and the Hardcore playlist is just one example of that.

Changing the playlist to competitive settings does change how the game would be played, but so does removing shields or giving people random weapons. I'm not sure what your point is considering it's the settings in one playlist, not the entire game. Why play Halo? Because there's numerous playlists with different settings that are fun. 343 doesn't take setting changes lightly and the majority of the settings that are in the playlists were also the settings in the OG games. You aren't giving 343 credit if you think they're just going to give in to every suggestion made about the settings.

Geth Pathfinder wrote:

WerepyreND wrote:

Geth Pathfinder wrote:

WerepyreND wrote:

Geth Pathfinder wrote:

The CursedLemon wrote:

QuadDAUMINATOR wrote:

You’re literally proving my point for me——it’s a more difficult game when you have both communication and teamwork AND the radar, AND it’s more difficult to be stealthy.

"It'd be more difficult if..."

It'd be more difficult if you had to pump the left and right shoulder buttons to simulate your Spartan's feet as they run.

What does that do for the gameplay aspect? Absolutely nothing.

Same thing with radar.

As a side note, the fact that this discussion is still occurring in 2019 makes me cry-laugh.

“What does that do for gameplay aspect? Absolutely nothing.” Except the MT has been part of Halo’s gameplay since CE.

You’re surprised this discussion is still going? This is my first time bringing it up or even seeing the topic in thirteen years of playing Halo, three years of playing online, and two and a half years of being on Halowaypoint. I felt the same as you when I saw the length of “The Sprint Discussion Thread”

I don’t feel that strongly about this. Hardcore mode can go ahead and remove the MT, automatics, and abilities. It’s just like how Swat removed shields among other things. It’s not going to change my mind that Hardcore mode doesn’t represent Halo.

"Being part of Halo's gameplay since CE" doesn't actually say anything about what it does for gameplay. The reason they are surprised it is still going on is simply because competitive players have been removing MT from competitive gametypes as long as Halo has existed. It generally doesn't get brought up, because the issue was settled almost 2 decades ago.

"Hardcore" settings are not supposed to representative of Halo at large, it is just supposed to be Halo at its most competitive. There are far more kids playing Tee-ball than there are professional baseball players, but no one is going to really start to care about how good you are until you lose the Tee(Motion tracker, among other things)...

Comparing Halo to baseball isn’t the same. In baseball, professional level is the real version and little league, tee-ball, etc is the more causal version for kids. Halo was built a certain way and for some reason competitive players can’t handle real Halo and need special changes. I’m getting tired of the emphasis on competitive Halo. Just look at what happened to Halo 5.

Couple things, firstly, the main point was that the most competitive version of a particular competitive activity is rarely identical to the version practiced by the most people, second, the MLB doesn't own the concept of baseball, it just sets rules for the most competitive instance of the particular sport. The professional versions of sports are just the most popular because surprise, it is more interesting game to watch when players/teams are testing their skills against each other without any handicaps.

What you were essentially saying is that "well everyone starts out with Tee-ball why is the tee removed from the hardcore version?" Because its a tee, it reduces the skill required to hit the ball, likewise MT reduces the skill required to determine if an enemy is likely going to be in a particular place.

Also, Halo 5 is not what you would get if you were to put the emphasis on competitive Halo. Not anywhere close.

I don’t find competitive that interesting. No abilities and everyone uses BRs/DMRs. That sounds pretty boring to watch. I don’t really get esports though. I would rather play the game myself.

Honestly, if you are going to be that dismissive and reductive regarding competitive settings I don't see why you would even care enough to ask the question in the first place. Sorry you don't like the answers you are getting, but if you are not willing to learn then don't bother asking questions in the first place.

Motion tracker is the one consistent thing that has been removed(or at least would have been in H5) throughout the entire history of competitive Halo for good reason. Likewise there is a strong correlation between Competitive Halo settings having a greater divergence from vanilla settings and questionable dev decisions(re: Random spread, Bloom, dumbed down gameplay overall) along with more radical changes to core Halo gameplay(abilities, loadouts).

Competitive players don't generally want to create some Frankenstein settings from forge and custom games to get a competitive game, they are forced to by bad and/or questionable design decisions in the core game.

playing with radar takes skill. you're right it's not random or anti-competitive. However, it's not a skillset that the competitive community has described as valuable and we do not like how the game functions with it on. from now on when i say "we" i mean the comp community.

Using information gained from radar does not take much skill, your decision however does. We feel that the skillset gained from not using radar is simply better. Flanking is next to impossible to do with radar on, especially with a multi level map like countdown. If you're tower you can tell if someone is in your basement or on your flag. You can't move across the map without being spotted. The best option is to stand still. So what does this do? we get matches that last 12/15minutes (or 30 at a tournament) where they end 20-18 instead of an 8minute 50-44 match. Yes, you do not have to stand still, but it is NOT the best option and when the skill levels are at the highest level, you will lose more likely than not giving away your positions. You seem to have to conception that flanking is not skillbased. It is, and it's not all assassinations. Yes you may "randomy" flank someone without meaning to do so, but if you crouch you can randomly flank someone who just happens to walk by you. And of course with less available information, there is more of a need to rely on callouts and deciphering them. When you are on a squad with 3 other people and all 4 of you are calling out 1 callout every 1-5 seconds, it's HARD AS HECK to understand it all. It's real easy to miss "1 shot behind you" but with radar you'd just easily see him on your map and turn around.

No radar pushes games to be more aggressive while radar pushes games to be more passive. We decided we enjoyed this gameplay and that the community would enjoy this on a spectating basis more so than looking down a hallway for 5minutes at a time with no action.

Also radar is not a staple of halo. most gametypes for CE on mcc don't have radar, not just the competitive ones. Hardcore has never had radar in MM from 2004-2015 with the release of halo 5. Even tournaments from back in '02 '03 were running no radar.

Things like abilities are removed because they disrupt mapflow. It's really really really hard to make a map that supports actions such as evade jumping, sprint jumping, and jetpack. If I wanted a 2nd level that you can't jump to, i'd have to make it like 2x the size of countdown to account for jetpack. Like look at countdown in particular. if you can jetpack, map position doesnt mean much because you can just jetpack up. But without it, you have to either lift or take the route from the back. This gives some essence of power to the map position. And it turns out the latter is just more fun.

Competitive, believe or not, is designed for everyone. So when you get to be the best of the best, the game is still fun. There are not any people who actually like default reach and would be able to take a tournament off the current pros, with or without HC settings.

The CursedLemon wrote:

Geth Pathfinder wrote:

“What does that do for gameplay aspect? Absolutely nothing.” Except the MT has been part of Halo’s gameplay since CE.

1. Who cares
2. In 4's and 2's, radar has been off since the franchise launched

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You’re surprised this discussion is still going? This is my first time bringing it up or even seeing the topic in thirteen years of playing Halo, three years of playing online, and two and a half years of being on Halowaypoint

You've only been on Waypoint and you hold the opinion that competitive Halo isn't real Halo
This is my shocked face.
e_e

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It’s not going to change my mind that Hardcore mode doesn’t represent Halo.

Does that give you some kind of sense of superiority, there? "It's not R33L Halo!"

You can go ahead and hang your hat on that one I guess, the rest of us (by that I mean 1/10th the population of the default TS playlist) will play a tournament version of Halo that's fast-paced and visually exciting. Unless 343 in their infinite wisdom decides to meddle and throw radar back into competitive, further driving the scene into the dirt. Hint: there's a reason they forfeited control back to grassroots organizers, it's almost like we know what we're doing or something.

QuadDAUMINATOR wrote:

If you think the radar doesn’t do anything for the gameplay aspect then you’re probably one of those players that still doesn’t really know how to use it.

I don't know how to stand there and wait for someone to run by me then assassinate them, huh? I'll bet you teabag someone super hard when you get to to that, it must be such a childish thrill for you.

Stay in default TS if you want radar, plain and simple. Don't -Yoink- everything up for us competitive players.

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As for wondering why the discussion still goes on, it’s because it’s a valid topic. “Pro-Halo” is not even based on actual Halo. It’s sort of ludicrous.

Maybe "actual" Halo is bad when good people start playing it.

It’s not about thinking that I’m superiority, it’s about acknowledging that competitive players are very picky. I would actually argue that the competitive community thinks they’re superior. I don’t care if we have modes like Swat, Snipers, or Hardcore. They all remove the MT and Swat removes shields. Honestly, I’m just going to avoid Team Hardcore. If it makes people happy, keep it as an option.

I don’t feel that strongly about the MT and was curious why it was absent in Hardcore. It’s actually kind of funny that this topic has blown up this big when it started as a simple question. I also still don’t get why the MCC removes it in most CE games.

”You've only been on Waypoint and you hold the opinion that competitive Halo isn't real Halo. This is my shocked face.” I’m confused what you’re point is here. Are you being sarcastic or are you genuinely surprised?

If Halo is bad when good people play, maybe they need to play something else. Not trying to drive away the community, just making a logical point. Personally, I want more people to play and the population to go up on the MCC.

LUKEPOWA wrote:

Geth Pathfinder wrote:

it’s about acknowledging that competitive players are very picky. I would actually argue that the competitive community thinks they’re superior.

It’s actually kind of funny that this topic has blown up this big when it started as a simple question.

You could say almost everyone is picky about playlists which they care about. I see it all the time on this forum with competitive and casual players and there are also people on both sides who think they're superior. The thread blowing up isn't surprising. If someone made a thread wondering why the Infected don't have full shields and then later implied that it would be better if they did, I'm sure there would be a bunch of regular Infection players defending how it currently is and listing the reasons why it should stay that way. This is no different, but my advice would be to become more informed before making some of your claims about competitive players. If you knew the history with them and the devs, you'd understand that it wasn't always a favorable relationship (still isn't for some) and why they're vocal about the settings in their playlist.

I know that the competitive community is why we got the sweat fest called Halo 5. 343i dropped everything I liked about Halo 4 (loadouts and armor abilities) in favor of advanced mobility. The problem is that a lot of competitive players didn’t like that style because of the thrusters and ground pound. Maybe that’s why Halo 5 is so hated? It tried to become competitive and casual, and failed at both. Maybe it’s unfair but I kind of hold a grudge against the Halo community for hating on 4. That was my favorite play style and now 343i will never make another game like it.

QuadDAUMINATOR wrote:

We literally could not see this more opposite I guess, because from my experience I’ve always used and seen other players use the radar pretty aggressively to anticipate movements

Last I checked, the motion tracker shows your enemy's exact location in real time. There's nothing to predict. Once you remove motion tracker, then you'll actually have to anticipate their movements based on your own game sense as a player.

QuadDAUMINATOR wrote:

, flush out camper locations, and coordinate with teammates to rush objectives or power weapon locations because we can see both visually and through the radar and estimate locations if we don’t have a hard visual.

You don't need motion tracker to accomplish this sort of gameplay. Your own visual awareness of the match is more than enough to keep track of the enemy team's general whereabouts. This is especially true with skilled players and teams, hence why motion tracker is off in hardcore modes.

QuadDAUMINATOR wrote:

And all of it aside, the idea of a Halo championship to see who’s best while not using any of the standard settings for gameplay is sort of a pointless exercise. It’s like a NASCAR championship on go-karts or something.

So you're telling me that the entirety of Halo's competitive history is invalidated because motion tracker was off? Out-of-the-box default settings with absolutely no changes whatsoever is the only true way to play Halo. You heard it here first.

TeeJaY ChArMs wrote:

QuadDAUMINATOR wrote:

We literally could not see this more opposite I guess, because from my experience I’ve always used and seen other players use the radar pretty aggressively to anticipate movements

Last I checked, the motion tracker shows your enemy's exact location in real time. There's nothing to predict. Once you remove motion tracker, then you'll actually have to anticipate their movements based on your own game sense as a player.

QuadDAUMINATOR wrote:

, flush out camper locations, and coordinate with teammates to rush objectives or power weapon locations because we can see both visually and through the radar and estimate locations if we don’t have a hard visual.

You don't need motion tracker to accomplish this sort of gameplay. Your own visual awareness of the match is more than enough to keep track of the enemy team's general whereabouts. This is especially true with skilled players and teams, hence why motion tracker is off in hardcore modes.

QuadDAUMINATOR wrote:

And all of it aside, the idea of a Halo championship to see who’s best while not using any of the standard settings for gameplay is sort of a pointless exercise. It’s like a NASCAR championship on go-karts or something.

So you're telling me that the entirety of Halo's competitive history is invalidated because motion tracker was off? Out-of-the-box default settings with absolutely no changes whatsoever is the only true way to play Halo. You heard it here first.

I think you missed the entirety of the point. Yes, you can see location in real time, but you and the enemy are both viewing that. Which is changing everything constantly in real time as well. It’s very much a test of who is outthinking the opponent based on that radar positioning and visual/audio information. Any teamwork is a bonus.
If you think you’re own visual awareness is enough, that’s fine, but that seems more like a case of a little bit of inflated ego as opposed to the truth. The truth is that all 4 in a 4 man team could get jumped because they can’t cover every possible angle of every area in the game. And even if they could, adding radar adds an additional layer of challenge to the game.

Finally, no, I don’t think the only true way to play halo is default out of the box settings. I just think that’s the only way to determine the champs. If you get the crutch of a game where nobody has eyes in the back of their head and everybody has 4 hit kill, mid/long range precision weapons, and you and your team become the champion of that, good for you but that’s hardly even Halo. Much less “pro.” And then , to Geth’s point, one of the biggest negative effects of that whole culture is the toxicity that spreads through the player base thinking that “that’s Pro mode and if you don’t like it you’re just bad at the game,”. And then you get people bending the dev’s ear to put BR slayer or DMR slayer or “MLG SLayer” into normal team slayer rotations because a separate playlist isn’t enough and etcetera etcetera etcetera.

“Tell me how you would get behind me with motion tracker on. I'm dying to know.”

-That’s the point. The battle of strategic maneuvers and attempting to outsmart the opponent or predict their movements without even looking at them, while they do the same to you. The idea is that it’s harder to get behind somebody. It forces confrontation and action, which is part of what made Halo revolutionary compared to other FPS games.

“Its a GOOD thing that I can't cover every possible angle. I never said I could, and I'd never want that. It leaves more room for my opponent to outsmart me. Could you imagine how boring Starcraft would be without the fog of war?”

Sneaking up behind somebody, radar or not, isn’t outsmarting anybody. It’s a tactic, sure, anybody can do that. What separates the caliber of players is who comes out on top when they have seen eachother.

“Yes, we're the ones using crutches while you want eyes in the back of your head. Comical. You've apparently took it upon yourself to decide what real Halo is and isn't, and I'm the one with the inflated ego?”

Thats just it. The players on your side of the argument always describe the radar as a “crutch.” The reality is, it’s a device designed to spark conflict and reduce the ability to sneak, and the pro scene doesn’t like it because elevates the difficultly of close quarters encounters. They also don’t like the fact that it CAN be used to sneak if you stay off it. If you’re entirely dependent upon radar, or the lack thereof, that Is a crutch. Not just having it on in the first place. As for “deciding what real Halo is an isn’t,” I’ve done that for myself, and I’m sharing my opinion on it. I’m not the first person to think competitive should have radar and I’m sure I won’t be the last.

This is funny considering this whole thread started because “OP wants to add motion tracker to Hardcore.”

For the longest time I can remember, the Halo fan base in general has been some of the most fickle people since Star Wars, but nobody is more fickle within that fan base than the pro crowd. Making competitive Halo more like the base game and less like the way other games run their competitive modes makes sense. Halo has always been a standout. There’s nothing unique or original about a shooter with precision weapons, no motion tracker, and pot shot team callout gameplay. To want to add Halo features to Halo competitive is not a stretch. Trying to make all of Halo match “competitive” features is.

QuadDAUMINATOR wrote:

I don’t play like that, as I’ve stated earlier. That’s camping. Although, that’s typically how I play in “Competitive” modes, because it’s easier to do. In regular Team Slayer, I play fast and aggressively, usually staying with at least one other team mate. I typically rely on either the AR, a grenade, or a melee at last resort to lower shields and the magnum for headshots. I typically get my teammate to watch my back and I usually rush a room, eyes on radar the whole time, and when I see movement I attempt to move accordingly to position either myself or my teammate for the kill.

Thanks for downplaying the importance of radar, I guess.

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In competitive modes, especially when matching with randoms, who never coordinate at all, it’s best to just hang back and pick people off with magnum/br/light rifle/ and so on, or patrol a tiny area with a CQC weapon or camp altogether. When you do have coordinated teammates, it’s still the better strategy to wait around. You don’t have radar so why would you risk moving yourselves outside of an area you all can’t cover every angle of? So the game becomes boring. Not competitive. Giving everyone precision weapons off the bat also tends to keep things to long hallway/sight picture engagements like COD instead of unabashed and -Yoink- kicking Halo action.

See, now you think you're tearing into the meat of competitive Halo being bad, but here's the kicker - competitive Halo has been bad since 2004. Not only has the main utility weapon been both non-skillful and underpowered, the maps have been increasingly based on an open-air design AND they've grown increasingly larger. Your complaint about "sitting back and picking people off" has been a complaint of the competitive community since H2 dropped. It's something that still hasn't been fixed. Comeptitive Halo still functions, but by the skin of its teeth and despite all the idiotic meddling by the developer (both Bungie and 343), in fact there's all sorts of problems with it that go beyond the scope of this thread.

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btw the only “childish thrill” I get out of the game is the game itself. How you could make the assumption I’m a dirty camper and a teabagger because I think vanilla slayer is more competitive than so called competitive game types is beyond me. And not very friendly in the spirit of a clean debate, either.

Because there is zero reason to prefer radar over no-radar unless you LOVE taking advantage of radar. Which would make you the human embodiment of a boltshot.

Geth Pathfinder wrote:

If Halo is bad when good people play, maybe they need to play something else.

That is literally what they're doing.

Geth Pathfinder wrote:

What’s wrong with taking advantage of radar? If I know that the opposing team is very skilled, I use stealth(aka crouch walk). Take away the MT and I’ll camp more. Why would I want to risk sticking my neck out when a whole team is ready to snipe me?

Never before have I heard someone so earnestly and unironically declare that they have a problem with higher-skilled players beating them.