Forums / Games / Halo: The Master Chief Collection (Xbox)

Why does Team Hardcore remove the motion tracker?

OP Geth Pathfinder

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What’s wrong with taking advantage of radar? If I know that the opposing team is very skilled, I use stealth(aka crouch walk). Take away the MT and I’ll camp more. Why would I want to risk sticking my neck out when a whole team is ready to snipe me?
Never before have I heard someone so earnestly and unironically declare that they have a problem with higher-skilled players beating them.
What do want me to say? I should just quit or accept that I’ll die repeatedly the whole game? Stealth is a viable option when fighting higher skilled opponents. At the very least it gives me a chance.
What’s wrong with taking advantage of radar? If I know that the opposing team is very skilled, I use stealth(aka crouch walk). Take away the MT and I’ll camp more. Why would I want to risk sticking my neck out when a whole team is ready to snipe me?
Are you actually reading what you are posting right now? The only "counter" to MT is to either be stationary or move so slowly that you effectively have to rely on players coming to you to do any damage. The idea that you are going to crouch walk any significant distance without getting spotted by good vigilant players checking angles on top of their own MT is laughable. Which does not really lend itself to fast paced gameplay. You are also not going to be able to secure respawning power weapons or power positions with that low speed without exposing yourself to that very skilled team.

It makes zero merit in camping more with MT disabled as moving at full speed is not punished by revealing your position through walls. All you end up doing is ceding power weapons and positioning to the enemy, this is especially dangerous when talking about objectives(remember those?).

Your fear regarding exposing yourself to the enemy without MT just demonstrates your own failings as an individual and team player. It shows a failure to communicate properly with your team, and it shows a lack of understanding of the map and the spawn system in the game. A highly skilled, knowledgeable team with effective communication skills can move around most of the map without fear of getting backwacked after passing every corner. By that same token if a player is able to overcome the other team's vigilance then they generally deserve to do damage with that flank.
There is over a decade of precedent demonstrating that removing the MT does not in fact lead to static, passive gameplay in competitive gametypes, in fact quite the opposite. If a match without MT has devolved into a campy mess, that says a lot more about the players playing than it does about the lack of MT.
WerepyreND wrote:
What’s wrong with taking advantage of radar? If I know that the opposing team is very skilled, I use stealth(aka crouch walk). Take away the MT and I’ll camp more. Why would I want to risk sticking my neck out when a whole team is ready to snipe me?
Are you actually reading what you are posting right now? The only "counter" to MT is to either be stationary or move so slowly that you effectively have to rely on players coming to you to do any damage. The idea that you are going to crouch walk any significant distance without getting spotted by good vigilant players checking angles on top of their own MT is laughable. Which does not really lend itself to fast paced gameplay. You are also not going to be able to secure respawning power weapons or power positions with that low speed without exposing yourself to that very skilled team.

It makes zero merit in camping more with MT disabled as moving at full speed is not punished by revealing your position through walls. All you end up doing is ceding power weapons and positioning to the enemy, this is especially dangerous when talking about objectives(remember those?).

Your fear regarding exposing yourself to the enemy without MT just demonstrates your own failings as an individual and team player. It shows a failure to communicate properly with your team, and it shows a lack of understanding of the map and the spawn system in the game. A highly skilled, knowledgeable team with effective communication skills can move around most of the map without fear of getting backwacked after passing every corner. By that same token if a player is able to overcome the other team's vigilance then they generally deserve to do damage with that flank.
There is over a decade of precedent demonstrating that removing the MT does not in fact lead to static, passive gameplay in competitive gametypes, in fact quite the opposite. If a match without MT has devolved into a campy mess, that says a lot more about the players playing than it does about the lack of MT.
My example was more about the games where I’m fighting just to stay alive and most/all of my team quits. I’m obviously not trying to win but I’m trying to last the game without dying 30 times. If the MT is disabled, I’m forced to camp so my back is in a corner. Without the MT, I can’t “watch” two directions at once.

I don’t really communicate because I don’t know callouts or spawns. I don’t even know where the power weapons are on some maps, namely Halo 2. I’m the least familiar with Halo 2 and I never played on the expansion maps before getting the MCC. Obviously I’m not a pro. I just play Halo for fun.

You argument that good players will know all the hiding places, proves that camping or crouch walking doesn’t really hurt the game on the competitive level. All the top players know where the hiding spots are; therefore, the MT won’t really encourage camping.
-That’s the point. The battle of strategic maneuvers and attempting to outsmart the opponent or predict their movements without even looking at them, while they do the same to you.
That's a very forgiving way of saying "cat and mouse". You can keep using generic buzz phrases like "strategic maneuvers", but they mean nothing to me. Stop skirting around the question and provide examples of how you would out-maneuver me with radar. Hint: you can't, because all I need to do is stare at your red dot.

Sneaking up behind somebody, radar or not, isn’t outsmarting anybody. It’s a tactic, sure, anybody can do that. What separates the caliber of players is who comes out on top when they have seen eachother.
Uhh, constantly flanking the other team is the very definition of outsmarting them. Actually hitting your shots is another matter.

Thats just it. The players on your side of the argument always describe the radar as a “crutch.” The reality is, it’s a device designed to spark conflict and reduce the ability to sneak,
No, the reality is that radar reduces your chances of getting flanked by a smart player, and that's why you like it. Geth already admitted it, why can't you?

As for “deciding what real Halo is an isn’t,” I’ve done that for myself, and I’m sharing my opinion on it. I’m not the first person to think competitive should have radar and I’m sure I won’t be the last.
You're right, 343 thought the same thing. You should apply.

For the longest time I can remember, the Halo fan base in general has been some of the most fickle people since Star Wars, but nobody is more fickle within that fan base than the pro crowd. Making competitive Halo more like the base game and less like the way other games run their competitive modes makes sense. Halo has always been a standout. There’s nothing unique or original about a shooter with precision weapons, no motion tracker, and pot shot team callout gameplay. To want to add Halo features to Halo competitive is not a stretch. Trying to make all of Halo match “competitive” features is.
Ah yes, I can picture it now. 8 players strolling through the map with their competitive assault rifles, radar enabled, and armor lock in their back pockets. The true test of skill.
For the longest time I can remember, the Halo fan base in general has been some of the most fickle people since Star Wars, but nobody is more fickle within that fan base than the pro crowd. Making competitive Halo more like the base game and less like the way other games run their competitive modes makes sense. Halo has always been a standout. There’s nothing unique or original about a shooter with precision weapons, no motion tracker, and pot shot team callout gameplay. To want to add Halo features to Halo competitive is not a stretch. Trying to make all of Halo match “competitive” features is.
Ah yes, I can picture it now. 8 players strolling through the map with their competitive assault rifles, radar enabled, and armor lock in their back pockets. The true test of skill.
You’re being sarcastic but the only problem with what you said is armor lock. What’s the problem with using the AR in competitive games? As long as the AR has a use, it should stay.
You’re being sarcastic but the only problem with what you said is armor lock. What’s the problem with using the AR in competitive games? As long as the AR has a use, it should stay.
I don't mind spray weapons in competitive so long as they are situational and not the main focus (e.g. AR starts).
You’re being sarcastic but the only problem with what you said is armor lock. What’s the problem with using the AR in competitive games? As long as the AR has a use, it should stay.
I don't mind spray weapons in competitive so long as they are situational and not the main focus (e.g. AR starts).
Maybe add ARs as map pickups? I just think that competitive needs to include more than just precision weapons. Spray weapons still have a place in CQC.
Because it's hardcore
WerepyreND wrote:
What’s wrong with taking advantage of radar? If I know that the opposing team is very skilled, I use stealth(aka crouch walk). Take away the MT and I’ll camp more. Why would I want to risk sticking my neck out when a whole team is ready to snipe me?
Are you actually reading what you are posting right now? The only "counter" to MT is to either be stationary or move so slowly that you effectively have to rely on players coming to you to do any damage. The idea that you are going to crouch walk any significant distance without getting spotted by good vigilant players checking angles on top of their own MT is laughable. Which does not really lend itself to fast paced gameplay. You are also not going to be able to secure respawning power weapons or power positions with that low speed without exposing yourself to that very skilled team.

It makes zero merit in camping more with MT disabled as moving at full speed is not punished by revealing your position through walls. All you end up doing is ceding power weapons and positioning to the enemy, this is especially dangerous when talking about objectives(remember those?).

Your fear regarding exposing yourself to the enemy without MT just demonstrates your own failings as an individual and team player. It shows a failure to communicate properly with your team, and it shows a lack of understanding of the map and the spawn system in the game. A highly skilled, knowledgeable team with effective communication skills can move around most of the map without fear of getting backwacked after passing every corner. By that same token if a player is able to overcome the other team's vigilance then they generally deserve to do damage with that flank.
There is over a decade of precedent demonstrating that removing the MT does not in fact lead to static, passive gameplay in competitive gametypes, in fact quite the opposite. If a match without MT has devolved into a campy mess, that says a lot more about the players playing than it does about the lack of MT.
My example was more about the games where I’m fighting just to stay alive and most/all of my team quits. I’m obviously not trying to win but I’m trying to last the game without dying 30 times. If the MT is disabled, I’m forced to camp so my back is in a corner. Without the MT, I can’t “watch” two directions at once.

I don’t really communicate because I don’t know callouts or spawns. I don’t even know where the power weapons are on some maps, namely Halo 2. I’m the least familiar with Halo 2 and I never played on the expansion maps before getting the MCC. Obviously I’m not a pro. I just play Halo for fun.

You argument that good players will know all the hiding places, proves that camping or crouch walking doesn’t really hurt the game on the competitive level. All the top players know where the hiding spots are; therefore, the MT won’t really encourage camping.
What you are describing is the skill gap without MT in action. The team who is more knowledgeable and communicates can effectively find and destroy their opponents while the other team cannot or at least not as effectively. The players who can use there game knowledge, teammate info, and critical thinking skills to locate their opponents without literally being given their location by MT in real time are simply the better players.

Locating enemy players before they locate you is a skill, as is avoiding them without simply camping. You just don't have that same dynamic with MT enabled.

You don't seem to understand how valuable your real time location through walls is to coordinated teams. They can and will swarm that exposed player safe in the knowledge that they cannot be approached without that player's teammates exposing themselves. This is an especially big problem when we consider a team in the lead with map and power weapon control who can't be approached from any angle who are free to hunt around at full speed knowing they have the big stick and the other team is either forced to run, keep their distance, hide, or die. Something that is just fine and dandy for a team that has full control already.

You simply cannot effectively flank when you will be automatically exposed the moment you get within ~25m of an enemy player.
It is removed because that is the established rules put in place within the competitive community for Halo: Reach. These rule sets are the exact same ones used when Halo: Reach was played at competitive events.

It will not be turned on for Halo: Reach Team Hardcore's playlist. If you wish to play multiplayer with radar active, all other playlists offer game types where the radar is active.
Postums wrote:
It is removed because that is the established rules put in place within the competitive community for Halo: Reach. These rule sets are the exact same ones used when Halo: Reach was played at competitive events.

It will not be turned on for Halo: Reach Team Hardcore's playlist. If you wish to play multiplayer with radar active, all other playlists offer game types where the radar is active.
I know that it won’t be turned on. I started this thread as the question: why is the MT absent from Hardcore? This is definitely escalating. I think it’s already been clarified that the MT will remain absent and that’s fine. I’ll just play regular slayer.
Postums wrote:
It is removed because that is the established rules put in place within the competitive community for Halo: Reach. These rule sets are the exact same ones used when Halo: Reach was played at competitive events.

It will not be turned on for Halo: Reach Team Hardcore's playlist. If you wish to play multiplayer with radar active, all other playlists offer game types where the radar is active.
I know that it won’t be turned on. I started this thread as the question: why is the MT absent from Hardcore? This is definitely escalating. I think it’s already been clarified that the MT will remain absent and I’m that’s fine. I’ll just play regular slayer.
Because that's the way the Hardcore playlist was designed way back when – to focus on positioning, spawn knowledge, movement, etc.

It was intended to be the MLG list and they didn't want the MT so it was disabled.
Postums wrote:
It is removed because that is the established rules put in place within the competitive community for Halo: Reach. These rule sets are the exact same ones used when Halo: Reach was played at competitive events.

It will not be turned on for Halo: Reach Team Hardcore's playlist. If you wish to play multiplayer with radar active, all other playlists offer game types where the radar is active.
I know that it won’t be turned on. I started this thread as the question: why is the MT absent from Hardcore? This is definitely escalating. I think it’s already been clarified that the MT will remain absent and I’m that’s fine. I’ll just play regular slayer.
They wanted it disabled and that’s how they want it. It’s that simple
You’re still not getting what I am
saying. The point is to use the radar and watch where your enemy is going and try to anticipate the next move and counter it ahead of time. Toss a grenade where their blip is moving/bring your weapon to bear where you think their head will end up based on their movement/predict where they are going so you can attempt to cut them off. And the entire time they are doing the same thing to you. Like a constantly shifting chess match. It’s literally about strategic maneuvers, and intuition. It’s not a buzzword catchphrase or some kind of fancy way of saying “cat and mouse.” In fact, “cat and mouse” is the very definition of no radar game types, because you visually chase when you can see and back off and just wait or talk to the other cats about the mouse location when you can’t visually see.

As for flanking, that is the oldest tactic in the book. A radar is not a crutch because it makes it harder to get flanked. It’s a tool to prevent cheap, old and overplayed tactics. The game was called combat evolved for a reason. If the entire point of every competitive or hardcore FPS match until the end of time is just to constantly try to outflank people and land headshots then that’s kind of lame. Allowing for multiple viable tactics is more fun and more competitive. Like having fully automatics in play. The more dynamic it is, the more interesting.
You’re still not getting what I am
saying. The point is to use the radar and watch where your enemy is going and try to anticipate the next move and counter it ahead of time. Toss a grenade where their blip is moving/bring your weapon to bear where you think their head will end up based on their movement/predict where they are going so you can attempt to cut them off. And the entire time they are doing the same thing to you. Like a constantly shifting chess match. It’s literally about strategic maneuvers, and intuition. It’s not a buzzword catchphrase or some kind of fancy way of saying “cat and mouse.” In fact, “cat and mouse” is the very definition of no radar game types, because you visually chase when you can see and back off and just wait or talk to the other cats about the mouse location when you can’t visually see.

As for flanking, that is the oldest tactic in the book. A radar is not a crutch because it makes it harder to get flanked. It’s a tool to prevent cheap, old and overplayed tactics. The game was called combat evolved for a reason. If the entire point of every competitive or hardcore FPS match until the end of time is just to constantly try to outflank people and land headshots then that’s kind of lame. Allowing for multiple viable tactics is more fun and more competitive. Like having fully automatics in play. The more dynamic it is, the more interesting.
With auto starts and radar game’s are less competitive the team with BR and sniper control pretty much have the game won. And why would they rush the guys without brs? They want the other team to come to them.
The point is to use the radar and watch where your enemy is going and try to anticipate the next move and counter it ahead of time.
Players don't need to anticipate moves and counter when radar is enabled. You are effectively reacting to the information you have been provided, there is no prediction or "anticipation of the next move". If two players see each other on the radar around a corner, almost a 100% of the time both players will lob a nade before rushing in to clean up the kill. Removing the radar allows for a greater emphasis on reading your opponents moves and outsmarting them.

I enjoy both the competitive and social aspects of Halo. Playing with radar enabled lets me relax as an individual player because there is little effort in playing the game when the radar gives me eyes around every corner. When playing without the radar I am much more focused on the opposing teams possible spawns, locking down angles, and reading the opponents possible moves.
A radar is not a crutch because it makes it harder to get flanked. It’s a tool to prevent cheap, old and overplayed tactics.
It's a tool to prevent anyone from ever getting the jump on you. It literally lets you see through walls. It's a crutch, a cheap way to play, and builds bad habits. There's nothing competitive about it.
The point is to use the radar and watch where your enemy is going and try to anticipate the next move and counter it ahead of time.
Players don't need to anticipate moves and counter when radar is enabled. You are effectively reacting to the information you have been provided, there is no prediction or "anticipation of the next move". If two players see each other on the radar around a corner, almost a 100% of the time both players will lob a nade before rushing in to clean up the kill. Removing the radar allows for a greater emphasis on reading your opponents moves and outsmarting them.

I enjoy both the competitive and social aspects of Halo. Playing with radar enabled lets me relax as an individual player because there is little effort in playing the game when the radar gives me eyes around every corner. When playing without the radar I am much more focused on the opposing teams possible spawns, locking down angles, and reading the opponents possible moves.
🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

I guess this concept is going over you guys’ heads. If you see a player on radar around a corner and you’re experienced in the game already, you would probably anticipate a possible grenade toss. So you can toss one of your own, you can back out of the possible path of their grenade, or you can use their location to attempt to rush in past whatever grenade bank shot they’re attempting and get the jump on them. And depending on your weapon and location you could have more options than just that. You also don’t just see WHERE players are, you also get a general sense of how they move and position themselves. This can sometimes tell you how experienced an opponent is or isn’t. You can use the radar to bait people or to catch people trying to bait you. You most certainly do need to anticipate people’s moves on radar. And you do this largely from a combination of experience and the information the radar is giving you. Im sure everybody assumes somebody’s coming in for an assassination or at least a quick beat down kill when they see a blip coming up fast behind them. In that moment, you’re anticipating conflict at your 6, so you can dodge, you could jump and try to assassinate your opponent, etc etc etc. If you’re familiar with the way people tend to move around the map, having a radar on top of that alone tends to break the traditional flow of a map if everybody is paying attention to it. If they aren’t paying attention to it, then yeah you are playing at a massive advantage. This is true 90% of the time in the more laid back Social playlists or standard Team Slayer in a non-ranked setting where the only thing on the line is like XP or social stats. And like I keep saying, every time you and your opponent see each others radar blips it changes what you may or may not try, if either of you are smart. You’re using that information to anticipate future movements, not just see exactly what movements are being made as they happen right now. This is especially true in maps that have a lot of vertical gameplay. The radar gives location and that’s it. What you do with that information however is limitless. If you don’t have that information then you’re making the game easier, not harder. This is what I don’t understand about where you guys are coming from. The game is MORE competitive, more heated and more intuitive and true to the series with motion trackers. It amplifies a team that is already working good together as well.

If y’all are out here using radar like it’s nothing more than like a giant metal detector or early warning system all I can say is I feel sorry for you. It is so much more than that.
You're failing to see that it takes more skill to predict movement with your own brain rather than use a game mechanic to assist you. If you throw someone who relies on radar into hardcore, he's going to have a bad time. I know this because I'm a living example. I played high-ranked team slayer and doubles in H3 for years before I switched over to the MLG list. I had to re-learn how to predict players because I was taught to rely on my radar.
Radar is a hinderance in Ranked Playlists and Competitive Custom Games. Here’s a giveaway of my location.
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