Forums / Community / Halo Universe

Canonical conissitency issues in H2A/cutscene

OP JABBERWOCK xeno

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Armor designs... I'm more annoyed by the fact that the Covenant fleet still shows at least 12 battlecruisers below the Chief as he jumps from Cairo. Implying that the ODP Grid isn't worth its weight in Yoink!...
At least this time we don't see dozens of Marathon-class cruisers exploding along with however many UNSC frigates.

There are actually about 20+ cruisers in what we have seen of the remastered cutscene, so either the numbers are just handwaved or you can head-canon it by assuming Regret would call in reserves or somesuch.
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I am trying to understand how we conclude that all models of MAARK VI now randomly have nanotech because 343I just came out and said so off the wall one day.
I'm trying to understand how people can accept that Warthogs and Mongooses, mass produced on an assembly line, can come fully equipped with nanotechnology but the armor system which was described as the single most expensive piece of military hardware in the UNSC can't possibly have it.

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> Has no energy shields
> expects it to have nanobots...
1. Some forms of Mark IV did have prototype shields
2. That was a typo, I meant Mark VI

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Halsey's Journal - Right after the armours are gone over the next few pages shows one in a broken down matter, in which the possibility of Nanofabrication is brought up.
She mentions Nanofabrication in her Journal when describing MJOLNIR Armor and you're still arguing with me?

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If nanotech was there from the start, it would have said so on the MK IV armour schematic, or at least mentioned in one of the books.
Well Mark IV was a typo on my part so using it as part of your argument is wasted effort. I'm officially arguing that the Mark VI had nanotech.

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What makes you think i care how many times they've said it?
Oh, thank you for effectively ending this conversation. Your entire argument is opinion based so there is no point in continuing after this post if your counter arguments are just going to be "I don't care because I'm choosing to believe what I want to believe".

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"[color=yellow]People have been wondering why the Master Chief's armour has changed…The reality is different artists, different creative approach, updated graphics. Its going to look different. And then the story reason would be 'nanobots'".

- Frank O'Connor from some random Vidoc/interview that i can't remember the name of right now.

I'd say it lines up pretty well with what 343i have been saying from the very beginning.
"People have been wondering why the Master Chief's armour has changed…The reality is different artists, different creative approach, updated graphics. Its going to look different. And then the story reason would be 'nanobots'"

I don't understand your point in posting this. He says right there that the story reason is nanobots. And I already posted a quote which says that part of the reason is "artistic evolution" but the In-Universe Canon reason is nanotechnology. That's the concept you appear to be having a hard time grasping.

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Which once again, is utter horse Yoink!.
Well that's your opinion.

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And i never will. Again, MK VI was never stated to have nanobots until 343i decided to pull it out of their -Yoink!-. I don't care how many times you want to repeat it, it makes no difference to me. It still doesn't make it sound anymore convincing.
Reach was never stated to have been attacked in July until Bungie decided to pull it out their -Yoinks!-. I guess you could argue that in your opinion Halo Reach isn't canon, no matter how many times Bungie or 343i says it is because your opinion trumps anything the developers say right?
one of the things that is bugging me is that people are expecting the Keyes's ship to look like her ship from halo 4, they even keep calling it the Forward Until Dawn. while i was not thrilled with its redesign in 4 one problem still is here on the post... the in halo 2 is the In Amber Clad and its a different class of ship.
Well there are screenshots now that show that both majors and minors in H2A have the same armor, color aside.

Additionally, the armor is matte, like plastic or paint. It doesn't have a hexagonal texture to it or the iridescent sheen we have seen on all covenant stuff for a while.

Interestingly and inconsistently, the needler the major is holding in the screenshot is the same model we have seen in reach, CEA, and 4, not an updated halo 2 model.

http://news.xbox.com/~/media/Import/assets/halo-the-master-chief-collection/halo-the-master-chief-collection/Gamescom-2014-Halo-2-Anniversary-First-Person-Delta-Halo-Red-and-Blue-jpg.ashx?w=1020&h=574

Also unsually, the image is only 1080p. The screenshots you normally see on the press site are around 5k.
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Master Chief's armor in Halo 4 was heavily modified by Cortana via nanotechnology. MJOLNIR Mark VI armor, otherwise, looks the same. The only issue with this is the opening cinematic of Halo 4 that depicts all Spartan-II's wearing Chief's modified armor... That, however, was likely just out of convenience for the animation team, and is a mistake.
Very well.

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Catalog has confirmed the fact that Sangheili can display phenotypic variance. This means that, while Sangheili don't suffer from subspecies fragmentation like the Kig-Yar (I'beish, T'vao), their physical anatomy can vary. In a sense, this can suggest that the Sangheili from Halo 4 and the Sangheili from Halo 2: Anniversary are all canon.
Catalog? What's that? Is that something like the data drops that were on this site a well back? I acttually never got around to reading those, if there's a collection of all of that info/a place to read all of them, a link would be apperciated.

Anyways, I suppose that's acceptable, but I feel that's simply a poor excuse for inconsistent visual design, particularly in the case of elites. If moving foward we start to see indivuals and clans having more distinct visual appearances, then perhaps. We do see that Rtas has a more halo 4 like skin, wheras thel has skin more like reach elites, but far less smooth.

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343i has confirmed that Covenant weapons, armor, vehicles and technology showcase visual variance from fleet to fleet. There is no uniform style of Covenant tech, it is usually based on the personal preference of the commanding officer of the fleet. The Fleet of Particular Justice (the Covenant fleet that had presence on Reach and Installation 04) does not necessarily have to use the same equipment that High Charity's fleets use.

I hope this helps clear things up. 343i is actually pretty consistent.
I really disagree here, for a few reasons, but for unrelated reasons I would like the source of that statement. Anyways:

Firstly, I don't think there's an disagreement that having different armor models for enemy ranks in the earlier games was technologically infeasible. The fact that CEA had the covenant with differing armor for ranks can be construed as updating for that, or it could be seen as that The Fleet of Particular Justice had armor distributed in that manner. This would work since both it and reach had the same armor, and if I recall correctly, all the ships at Instillation 04 were ships that were a part of that fleet that pursued the PoA.

However, you cannot say that the armor we saw in halo 2 was just whatever Regret's fleet had, which is what we see on 05 in the screenshot I posted, since you see covenant from various different fleets and locations in halo 2: Regret's Fleet, in High Charity, in the high charity defense fleet, etc. If one is going to explain the armor inconsistency with the fact that there is no regular standard of equipment across the entire covenant military, then logically we'd be seeing different armor and weapon appearances in all of these levels in halo 2 anniversary, which is not something I expect, but I would be very pleased with.

Finally, we see in that screenshot that the needler being used is the halo reach/CEA/4 model, not an updated halo 2 model. If the reason that the armor for the elites in that screenshot is identical is because of them being in regret's fleet, then I would expect that their needler's would follow what we saw in halo 2 as well.

What this basically boils down to is that 343 is not putting too much thought into the canonical implications of the visual designs they use in H2A.

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343 said several times that they didn't use the Mark VI variants from Halo 2 and 3 in the Halo 4 cutscenes because they didn't have the time and resources to make an entirely new model.
Can I have a source for this?

And I find that hard to believe seeing as how they had MK VI model's as armor variants in multiplayer.
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Catalog has confirmed the fact that Sangheili can display phenotypic variance. This means that, while Sangheili don't suffer from subspecies fragmentation like the Kig-Yar (I'beish, T'vao), their physical anatomy can vary. In a sense, this can suggest that the Sangheili from Halo 4 and the Sangheili from Halo 2: Anniversary are all canon.
Catalog? What's that? Is that something like the data drops that were on this site a well back? I acttually never got around to reading those, if there's a collection of all of that info/a place to read all of them, a link would be apperciated.

Anyways, I suppose that's acceptable, but I feel that's simply a poor excuse for inconsistent visual design, particularly in the case of elites. If moving foward we start to see indivuals and clans having more distinct visual appearances, then perhaps. We do see that Rtas has a more halo 4 like skin, wheras thel has skin more like reach elites, but far less smooth.
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Query: Are the Hesduros Sangheili a different subspecies to that of the natives of Sanghelios? Considering the marked differences in appeareance
Query Answer: [macto cognatus] display a range of phenotypic variation. Human [Lifeworker] [population genetics] analysis does not indicate evidence of reproductive isolation in extant colonies or anomalous genetic structure within populations.
-source: https://forums.halowaypoint.com/yaf_search.aspx?g=search&postedby=Catalog

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343i has confirmed that Covenant weapons, armor, vehicles and technology showcase visual variance from fleet to fleet. There is no uniform style of Covenant tech, it is usually based on the personal preference of the commanding officer of the fleet. The Fleet of Particular Justice (the Covenant fleet that had presence on Reach and Installation 04) does not necessarily have to use the same equipment that High Charity's fleets use.

I hope this helps clear things up. 343i is actually pretty consistent.
I really disagree here, for a few reasons, but for unrelated reasons I would like the source of that statement.
1) There's actually a couple of places where vehicle designs have explicitly been stated to have design variance. The Halo: Essential Visual guide actually talks an awful lot about it. One source is on page 18, where it describes variance in banshee design based on manufacturer and fleet.
- source: Halo: The Essential Visual Guide, page 18.

2) "Q: Where are Covenant ships and armors created post war? And why do the Covenant use green lights?
-@TheMasterBuild1

A: While a handful of their local shipyards still exist, most are inactive, forcing many Sangheili to fight over what remained at the close of the war. Shipboard/hull lighting can vary in color for a number of reasons, including things such as the manufacturer, the era of production, and a commander’s personal preference."
- source: https://blogs.halowaypoint.com/en-us/blogs/headlines/posts/the-halo-bulletin-4-16-14

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Firstly, I don't think there's an disagreement that having different armor models for enemy ranks in the earlier games was technologically infeasible. The fact that CEA had the covenant with differing armor for ranks can be construed as updating for that, or it could be seen as that The Fleet of Particular Justice had armor distributed in that manner. This would work since both it and reach had the same armor, and if I recall correctly, all the ships at Instillation 04 were ships that were a part of that fleet that pursued the PoA.

However, you cannot say that the armor we saw in halo 2 was just whatever Regret's fleet had, which is what we see on 05 in the screenshot I posted, since you see covenant from various different fleets and locations in halo 2: Regret's Fleet, in High Charity, in the high charity defense fleet, etc. If one is going to explain the armor inconsistency with the fact that there is no regular standard of equipment across the entire covenant military, then logically we'd be seeing different armor and weapon appearances in all of these levels in halo 2 anniversary, which is not something I expect, but I would be very pleased with.
See, the fact of the matter is that High Charity's defense fleets and Regret's fleet could all be using the exact same weapon and armor models. There's nothing suggesting that every single fleet has to have different looking ordnance and technology. What I'm saying is that 343i's reasoning for graphical variation is that different manufacturers and fleet commanders have their own personal taste and style, to which we see different models of the same vehicles/weapons/armor.

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Finally, we see in that screenshot that the needler being used is the halo reach/CEA/4 model, not an updated halo 2 model. If the reason that the armor for the elites in that screenshot is identical is because of them being in regret's fleet, then I would expect that their needler's would follow what we saw in halo 2 as well.
Again, for the same reasons I mentioned above, the models are based on the commander/manufacturer's personal taste. If Regret wants to use the same Needler model that Thel 'Vadamee used in his fleet, by all means, he will do so.

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What this basically boils down to is that 343 is not putting too much thought into the canonical implications of the visual designs they use in H2A.
I wholeheartedly disagree. They take their artistic freedoms, yes; however, they still manage to incorporate their creative decisions in a way which still adheres to canon. Bungie merely retconned old designs with new ones with every game's release... On the other hand, 343i has provided a solid reason for graphical variance that canonizes all the designs we've come to know and love. I'd say the only design retconning 343i's done has been with HCEA and H2A, ultimately rendering the original designs as moot; however, all Halo 3 designs are considered canon. You can even look in Halo: Escalation and see a Reach-style from Vata 'Gajat's group flying alongside a Halo 3-style banshee from Thel 'Vadam's group.
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What this basically boils down to is that 343 is not putting too much thought into the canonical implications of the visual designs they use in H2A.
Incorrect. [juris et de jure]
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