Forums / Community / Halo Universe

Could Reach have been the turning point?

OP HydraHornet77

  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. ...
  4. 2
Does anyone think that in any alternate scenario that Reach could’ve stopped the Covenant and ended the war?
I don't think so. Humanity didn't actually win the war. As I understand, the Covenant defeated themselves.
Good question. Assuming everything went the same save for the battle being won we have a few scenarios changed as a result of this that affects more of the 343 era.

  1. The slip-space bomb does not malfunction meaning Jorge does not have to stay behind.
  2. Assuming everything played out identically for Noble Team save the battle going in their favor, the only casualty is Kat seeing as her death isn't caused by anything more than her being unlucky. Carter and Jorge never have to sacrifice themselves, Jun still gets to leave, and Emile and Noble 6 don't have to go to the POA in order to deliver Cortana meaning both survive.
  3. Thel Vadamee is either killed or forced to flee and in either event wont become Arbiter. (alternatively he could for failing at Reach)
  4. Nobody makes the jump to Halo
  5. More of the Spartan-II live as a result
  6. If nobody goes to Halo then the Flood isn't released here and nobody gets assimilated meaning Captain Keyes gets to live.
  7. No Heretics at the gas mine
  8. No Flood = No Gravemind
  9. Assuming most of Halo 2 still occurs largely the same, though some details are altered, Regret is still assassinated but never re-animates
  10. If Mercy cannot be attacked by the Flood, he's likely still killed via Master Chief or during Truth's coup.
  11. Without the threat of the Flood we don't have to prematurely light the rings and Johnson lives assuming they aren't released anywhere else.
  12. Chief never ends up on Requiem and the Didact is not released.
swiftkinfe wrote:
Good question. Assuming everything went the same save for the battle being won we have a few scenarios changed as a result of this that affects more of the 343 era.

  1. The slip-space bomb does not malfunction meaning Jorge does not have to stay behind.
  2. Assuming everything played out identically for Noble Team save the battle going in their favor, the only casualty is Kat seeing as her death isn't caused by anything more than her being unlucky. Carter and Jorge never have to sacrifice themselves, Jun still gets to leave, and Emile and Noble 6 don't have to go to the POA in order to deliver Cortana meaning both survive.
  3. Thel Vadamee is either killed or forced to flee and in either event wont become Arbiter. (alternatively he could for failing at Reach)
  4. Nobody makes the jump to Halo
  5. More of the Spartan-II live as a result
  6. If nobody goes to Halo then the Flood isn't released here and nobody gets assimilated meaning Captain Keyes gets to live.
  7. No Heretics at the gas mine
  8. No Flood = No Gravemind
  9. Assuming most of Halo 2 still occurs largely the same, though some details are altered, Regret is still assassinated but never re-animates
  10. If Mercy cannot be attacked by the Flood, he's likely still killed via Master Chief or during Truth's coup.
  11. Without the threat of the Flood we don't have to prematurely light the rings and Johnson lives assuming they aren't released anywhere else.
  12. Chief never ends up on Requiem and the Didact is not released.
Such a peaceful story without the flood, less casualties. I guess this shows that the flood are the most deadly parasite in the whole universe.
swiftkinfe wrote:
Good question. Assuming everything went the same save for the battle being won we have a few scenarios changed as a result of this that affects more of the 343 era.

  1. The slip-space bomb does not malfunction meaning Jorge does not have to stay behind.
  2. Assuming everything played out identically for Noble Team save the battle going in their favor, the only casualty is Kat seeing as her death isn't caused by anything more than her being unlucky. Carter and Jorge never have to sacrifice themselves, Jun still gets to leave, and Emile and Noble 6 don't have to go to the POA in order to deliver Cortana meaning both survive.
  3. Thel Vadamee is either killed or forced to flee and in either event wont become Arbiter. (alternatively he could for failing at Reach)
  4. Nobody makes the jump to Halo
  5. More of the Spartan-II live as a result
  6. If nobody goes to Halo then the Flood isn't released here and nobody gets assimilated meaning Captain Keyes gets to live.
  7. No Heretics at the gas mine
  8. No Flood = No Gravemind
  9. Assuming most of Halo 2 still occurs largely the same, though some details are altered, Regret is still assassinated but never re-animates
  10. If Mercy cannot be attacked by the Flood, he's likely still killed via Master Chief or during Truth's coup.
  11. Without the threat of the Flood we don't have to prematurely light the rings and Johnson lives assuming they aren't released anywhere else.
  12. Chief never ends up on Requiem and the Didact is not released.
Hope you don’t mind. But cold you explain HOW the events would play out. Like the battle and so forth. Sorry but you bring up a somewhat actually interesting response.
I highly doubt it unless operation red flag was successful, which probably would have been a long shot.
Like another poster said, humanity didn't really even win the war. The covenant just shot themselves in the foot with the great schism.
There’s just no way Reach could’ve survived. Even if the initial attack and the Fleet of Particular Justice was defeated, the Covenant would just return with fresh ships to mop up the surviving humans. And if there was some scenario where Reach was successfully defended and the Covenant gave up with the planet, the UNSC would still not be able to turn the tide of the war. Invading Covenant territory, aside from the fact the UNSC would have no idea where many Covenant worlds were located, would be impossible. Their empire was too large and the UNSC invasion fleet would be slaughtered.
Stopped the Covenant? No.

Ended the war? Yeah. An alternate version where Noble 6 boarded the Pelican instead of covering it with the mini-MAC. Then the Pelican and probably the Autumn would have been destroyed, meaning the Chief would have been destroyed, meaning the UNSC would have lost the thing that led to the Covenant's fall (no Chief, no loss of Installation 04, no Great Schism, no finding the Ark). Instead, the Covenant would have probably taken some human hostage, activated a ring, and sent everyone everywhere on a great journey to the afterlife. Silver lining: this timeline would have cleansed the Flood infestation on Installation 05, so that threat would be gone too.
Chimera30 wrote:
Stopped the Covenant? No.

Ended the war? Yeah. An alternate version where Noble 6 boarded the Pelican instead of covering it with the mini-MAC. Then the Pelican and probably the Autumn would have been destroyed, meaning the Chief would have been destroyed, meaning the UNSC would have lost the thing that led to the Covenant's fall (no Chief, no loss of Installation 04, no Great Schism, no finding the Ark). Instead, the Covenant would have probably taken some human hostage, activated a ring, and sent everyone everywhere on a great journey to the afterlife. Silver lining: this timeline would have cleansed the Flood infestation on Installation 05, so that threat would be gone too.
I like your optimism
The POA could've dropped a Nova Bomb off right before they entered slipspace, that would've stopped the Covenant and at the very least made the battle a draw. It wouldn't have ended the war by a long shot though, since the Covenant still had thousands of ships in reserve. If anything, I think winning the battle of Reach only would've hurt the UNSC, since then they wouldn't have had the battle of Installation 04 (which crippled the Covenant) and Operation First Strike (which destroyed 500 Covenant ships and bought Earth the time it needed to prepare for the invasions).
I asked a similar question and set it up as Reach getting early warning and dispatched the Spartans along with a Punic or two with an accompanying battle fleet to ambush the ships similar to First Strike.

However this wouldn't have stopped the covenant, set them back definately by a few months but unless humanity gained post war advances in that time then it would just be delaying things.
swiftkinfe wrote:
Good question. Assuming everything went the same save for the battle being won we have a few scenarios changed as a result of this that affects more of the 343 era.

  1. No Flood = No Gravemind
Isn't there still the Gravemind on Installation 05? The one formed on Installation 04 was only a proto-gravemind (which wouldn't form in the UNSC victory scenario since that ring is left alone). But 2401 PT neglected the containment on Installation 05 and so the flood on his ring already had a gravemind developed before the UNSC and Covenant arrived in Halo 2. So even if Reach was saved, the flood would still have a gravemind (unless this was touched on in a book).
Does anyone think that in any alternate scenario that Reach could’ve stopped the Covenant and ended the war?
I find it unlikely personally, just looking at the tactical data. coupled with the covenant briefly cutting eyes and ears from the other colonies. as for the idea that if if red team did not crash, land on the way, or if the circumference could have been taken care of sooner, (which it honestly couldn't have, even then. upholding the Cole protocol wouldnt change the location of reach already being compromised.) I honestly don't know.
Reach is an insignificant speck compared to the Covenant. They had a fleet at High Charity that was conservatively over 1,000 ships. The scale of the Covenant and their power relative to humanity is just a joke, they were really not taxed at all fighting humans. The only things that allowed Chief to even survive and nearly kill the Hierarchs in Halo 2 were A). A very convenient Halo teleportation system that put him in the middle of High Charity. B). The Covenant schism and civil war taking place. C). The Flood invading High Charity at the same time.

Honestly, Reach to the Covenant was just another world with a bit more of a dug in infestation.
Just Skill wrote:
The only things that allowed Chief to even survive and nearly kill the Hierarchs in Halo 2 were A). A very convenient Halo teleportation system that put him in the middle of High Charity. B). The Covenant schism and civil war taking place. C). The Flood invading High Charity at the same time.
A) But Chief had already killed Regret (as well as all his Honor Guard) before he was even teleported to High Charity.
B) The same civil war that the UNSC were directly responsible for causing? And this doesn't explain how in Halo 1 Chief was able to, not only survive, but destroy the Covenant's most prized religious relic under the direct watch of one of the Covenant's greatest military leaders.
C) Except that the Flood were only able to invade High Charity because of UNSC In Amber Clad.
Just Skill wrote:
The only things that allowed Chief to even survive and nearly kill the Hierarchs in Halo 2 were A). A very convenient Halo teleportation system that put him in the middle of High Charity. B). The Covenant schism and civil war taking place. C). The Flood invading High Charity at the same time.
A) But Chief had already killed Regret (as well as all his Honor Guard) before he was even teleported to High Charity.
B) The same civil war that the UNSC were directly responsible for causing? And this doesn't explain how in Halo 1 Chief was able to, not only survive, but destroy the Covenant's most prized religious relic under the direct watch of one of the Covenant's greatest military leaders.
C) Except that the Flood were only able to invade High Charity because of UNSC In Amber Clad.
Regret was not with the main Covenant Fleet. That ultimately came just before Chief got inside the Temple and killed Regret. Help did not arrive on time (possibly by Truth's choice). Chief fighting a smaller Fleet meant initially to uncover the Ark at Earth and then ran to Delta Halo is one thing. Breaking into High Charity and killing the other two is a completely different story.

Again, with the Halo CE reference scale and context are important. They would not attack the Halo RIng, so they fought on its surface with the humans, but also were clearly occupied with unlocking Halo's secrets and inadvertently releasing the Flood. Again Humanity has an element of being more of a distraction or secondary objective to achieving their actual goal.

Reach could in no way be a turning point because it took the distraction of the Flood and the Covenant Civil War to happen simultaneously. You could argue humans are responsible for both, but that's an overall stretch for me personally because the problems in the Covenant with the Schism were pre planned by the Prophet of Truth. He just needed the excuse to enact it. The Flood getting on to High Charity through in Amber Clad was not the only Flood outbreak they battled. The Covenant Fleet while fighting its Civil War was also battling their own ships too close to the Ring that were being infected.

This is all a long way of saying Reach took very little effort and was not taxing for the Covenant to do. The Human-Covenant War just did not exhaust their resources. They wanted to extinguish them and find the Halo Rings.
Reach was never going to survive against 200+ covenant ships with the 3-1 number superiority humans need to win. Going by canon, the reaction to covenant being there was much too slow, so possibly more casualties could've been inflicted, however the end result would still be the same. I actually believe that if reach survived, there would be no jump to halo and no subsequent destruction of 04, which set in motion the sequence of events that led to quite a favourable outcome for humanity, including the destruction of that big 300+ ship fleet by whitcomb in First Strike (novel) and more importantly, the covenant would have been less likely to capitulate due to schism.
Someone probably mentioned it; but I think everyone would lose to the Flood, the MC and co ended up on the Halo ring in C.E because they fled after defeat - if they win they don't do a desperate jump and go through the events leading the ring being blown up. The Covies may not have cleansed the ring and the Flood could have escaped, game over.
Someone probably mentioned it; but I think everyone would lose to the Flood, the MC and co ended up on the Halo ring in C.E because they fled after defeat - if they win they don't do a desperate jump and go through the events leading the ring being blown up. The Covies may not have cleansed the ring and the Flood could have escaped, game over.
They only found the ring by following the unsc ship. The Covenant would not have found the ring thanks to Keys getting the proper coordinates before the covenant stealth ship could and Cortana using them to flee Reach. However though had humanity won at Reach, they ironically would have doomed their race to being wiped out.
I don't think so. Humanity didn't actually win the war. As I understand, the Covenant defeated themselves.
Pretty much, yeah.
  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. ...
  4. 2