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Does the UNSC need Spartans?

OP total war1402

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In lore, in a trailer for Halo 4 and in the final cutscene for Halo 4 Spartan Ops, it shouws that they are easy to kill, ok, but in gameplay they're stronger to give you a challenge. This isn't call of duty (and thank god it isn't), where 300 shots (sarcasm) can't kill anyone, but a knife to the foot can. You haven't read Escalation, well lucky you that you can at least buy it right? Because I haven't read a single Halo novel in my entire life. Why? Because the portuguese decided to be ps fanboys.

The case of Forge VS Ripa is interesting. Ripa loved to toy with his enemy before killing them, something that Forge could have taken advantage of. In the time space where Ripa said "There will be no female to save you this time", Forge could have though to use his knife. He might have been lucky or Ripa's personality betrayed him (arrogance).

In the opening scene for Halo Wars you can see Marines kick -Yoink- against the Elites. But, that was\we're the first battle(s). You then see them screaming in pain and fear of the slaughter they cannot escape. "But setback after setback... loss after loss... made what was going to be a quick and decisive win... into five years of Hell". The Covenant could have brought more equipment and vehicles that Marines we're not prepared to deal with. Not even if they could bring bigger guns.

In ODST, they managed to dominate the Chieftain because it was 4 elite soldiers against a lone Chieftain that focused on killing those that we're weakened enough to not be able to fight back. Maybe he could have killed one of them if he had left Romeo laying there, helplessly (Really he couldn't do anything. Sniper got thrown off the building, the only weapon he could use was too heavy for his state, what could he do?). Haven't played Halo 5 (No Xbox One) so I won't comment on what you said about it.

No, I don't dismiss the entire saga as non-cannon. All I'm trying to say is that, in gameplay, the events are cannon of course, but the gameplay mechanics are not. Lore = 3 shots to an Elite, he dies. Gameplay = Half a clip of a MA5D can kill one Elite. I also don't believe that a Grunt can survive that many shots, since you can also see blood coming out every time he's hit with 1. Lore over gameplay. It's different what I'm trying to say.

But does the Covenant use only Infantry? No, the Covenant also show heavy usage of vehicles Now why am I coming with vehicles? Spartans can board them and use them to their advantage. Marines don't, and even if ODST are capable of hijacking it would be risky since they don't have energy shielding. But not all of the vehicles are hijack-able The Scarabs (Type 47-B Deutoros (Halo 3)) for example are supposed to be deadly and are and con't be boarded by one since it's controlled by lek-golo worms. Am I right? The UNSC should consider them as high priority since it's firepower can decimate everything. Even if a marine could board one, he would have to go through the troops to reach the core. And since there's always high ranking personnel in each one, it's almost impossible. Spartans however, with their augmentations and armor are capable of killing everyone and destroy the threat. In ODST we fight a Scarab yes, but:
  1. The character is controlled by the player
  2. The Scarab is easy because of gameplay purposes so it's not impossible.
  3. We're piloting a Banshee, a highly evasive, fast and agile vehicle.
True, UNSC doesn't use laser weapons but they have something. Gauss technology. Used in warthogs, MAC guns, even infantry weapons. Also, the MA series is not like any other assault rifle that exists today. For starters, Halo is not 600 years in the future. It's about 541 years from now. Now, the MA series are capable of surviving falls from space and retain full functionality, are compatible with many different armament and attachments, even if it's not human, is reliable, useful and practical.

The gap between a Marine and a Spartan is large. Most of the things a Spartan can do, can't be done by a Marine. Spartans can jump much higher, run faster, extreme reaction times, extreme awareness of his surroundings, and many incredible things.

Also I forgot to say but I don't know anything about 40k. I just limited myself to use the words and knowledge that you used.
EDIT: It's possible that this post is kinda messy, it's because I'm kinda sleepy (had a bad night).
The Spartans have received the most advanced training, learned the best military strategy, and had augmentations to enhance their bodies. This allowed them to use the Mjolnir armor, which offers superior abilities in combat. The UNSC needs spartans to handle missions that are impossible for any other military personel.
Such as?

All UNSC soldiers would receive similar training and operate with similar strategy. Part of the same army after all. Augmentations of physical strength are neat but the vast bulk of combat isn't at close quarters so this is irrelevant. A marine gunline would suppress any infantry charge by sword wielding elites if it only takes three bullets to kill one from an assault rifle. It would be like Pickets Charge if the Union had machine guns.

In Halo Wars and Halo Wars 2 a UNSC army, vastly outnumbered, manages to hold its own and triumph against the Covenant, Banished, Flood and Forerunners. If they are that successful and if that's how effective just one ship is, then surely they don't need Spartans and can achieve the vast bulk of military objectives on their own? The same can be said of ODST, even if the specifics of gameplay and kill count aren't canon. In fact in the final cutscene you see a load of brutes running away from a gunline of battle rifles and scorpions. Red Team plays an important role. But its not an indispensable role. They could have sent up a squad of ODST's and set up a chaingun at that door and the end result would have been the same. Also applies for when the elite charge across that bridge. I mean if it takes three bullets to kill one elite, then in theory one guy with his assault rifle could have killed all 20 of those elites with one clip. So it might look impressive with all the acrobatics but its not necessary if a few steady assault rifles can kill the same number of enemies.
I still have no idea where you're getting the "three AR rounds to kill a shielded elite" stat from and I own every book thats out right now. Gameplay makes shielded and robotic enemies easier to kill but flesh based one's harder. Do you really think that a jackal would be able to take as many rounds to their frail body as they do in a game? RTS games are always a bit wonky with unit strength but at least in the Halo Wars cutscenes you don't normally see any enemies with shields. I love the Monsters cutscene where red team owns the elites and you are right in that case. A chaingun would have worked out well because the elites that challenged red team didn't have any shields on. The Arbiter got killed by Forge because he was cocky and more than likely the impact of the slipspace drive knocked out his shields (if he even had them on, I never saw a flicker of energy).
I don't see why the Forerunners couldn't develop something more powerful than a Spartan. I mean how exactly does Cortana intend to rule the galaxy if Prometheans are that bad?

Yes but before then Forge is wrestling Ripa, a "massive elite" like he's just a normal guy instead of the equivalent of wrestling a bull. At one point he actually pins his arm in place and rugby tackles him before that. If that's how close combat with an elite goes for a marine then that's a pretty good track record. If Forge can wrestle the Arbiter, shouldn't a normal marine be able to wrestle a normal elite. Indeed we see this in the intro of Halo Wars 1.

The point is that Halo Wars shows the marines winning in the first place. That implies the Covies only won because they had more soldiers, as opposed to them being so good that it meant Spartans were the only soldiers capable of taking the fight to the Covenant. Plus that defeat leads into a stunning victory during Halo Wars 1.

If four men leapt onto a bull with daggers, it would not end well for them. The same applies to the ODST's getting a Chieftain. If brutes can be killed by a simple dagger then they can't be that much of a threat.

They have Spartan Lasers...

I also hear an AK47 can withstand a tank being driven over it and still fire. Those are anecdotal features. All I see is a normal machine gun that could be built today and has no business destroying Prometheans. It should be like shooting a terminator with bullets.
Cindars wrote:
I still have no idea where you're getting the "three AR rounds to kill a shielded elite" stat from and I own every book thats out right now. Gameplay makes shielded and robotic enemies easier to kill but flesh based one's harder. Do you really think that a jackal would be able to take as many rounds to their frail body as they do in a game? RTS games are always a bit wonky with unit strength but at least in the Halo Wars cutscenes you don't normally see any enemies with shields. I love the Monsters cutscene where red team owns the elites and you are right in that case. A chaingun would have worked out well because the elites that challenged red team didn't have any shields on. The Arbiter got killed by Forge because he was cocky and more than likely the impact of the slipspace drive knocked out his shields (if he even had them on, I never saw a flicker of energy).
Was quoted to me in another thread discussing how effective Covenant troops are, but I think its from the Flood or Fall of Reach. Some of the cutscenes in Halo 5 show this. Such as when Vale leaps into the Phantom and shoots that elite major in the gut a few times before kicking him off. Then theres the bit where they kill Juls bodyguard.

Plus in Halo 5 you also see Vale kill a soldier with a quick burst of an SMG. So gameplay actually makes the Prometheans tougher to kill then they are in the lore.
I don't see why the Forerunners couldn't develop something more powerful than a Spartan. I mean how exactly does Cortana intend to rule the galaxy if Prometheans are that bad?

Yes but before then Forge is wrestling Ripa, a "massive elite" like he's just a normal guy instead of the equivalent of wrestling a bull. At one point he actually pins his arm in place and rugby tackles him before that. If that's how close combat with an elite goes for a marine then that's a pretty good track record. If Forge can wrestle the Arbiter, shouldn't a normal marine be able to wrestle a normal elite. Indeed we see this in the intro of Halo Wars 1.

The point is that Halo Wars shows the marines winning in the first place. That implies the Covies only won because they had more soldiers, as opposed to them being so good that it meant Spartans were the only soldiers capable of taking the fight to the Covenant. Plus that defeat leads into a stunning victory during Halo Wars 1.

If four men leapt onto a bull with daggers, it would not end well for them. The same applies to the ODST's getting a Chieftain. If brutes can be killed by a simple dagger then they can't be that much of a threat.

They have Spartan Lasers...

I also hear an AK47 can withstand a tank being driven over it and still fire. Those are anecdotal features. All I see is a normal machine gun that could be built today and has no business destroying Prometheans. It should be like shooting a terminator with bullets.
You know the Warden Eternal? It's pure metallic, just like Terminator. The portuguese miner in whatever the planet's called (Halo 5) even doubts if Spartans could survive fighting him. So there you go, a forerunner Spartan killing machine.
Also, Cortana doesn't want to rule the galaxy. It is implied in the game itself that she only wants to make every living being in the galaxy more than what they are, something like that. Kinda like Spartan augmentation. That or a very good theory that is, what if Cortana is infected with the logic plague? But that's another topic so I won't say anything.

That's why I said that Forge and Ripa's fight was interesting. I mean, I know, a normal guy against a massive Elite that bears the title of an Arbiter wins. I don't know the factors as to why this happens but it might be like how I said: Either Forge was lucky that Ripa fell into his trap by grabbing him in the neck, or Ripa's arrogance led him to his death. Remember that Ripa loved to toy with his victims. And something I learned is that you should NEVER underestimate nor toy with anyone.

In the intro of Halo Wars, the battle in which we see the Marines triumphing their victory over the Covenant might have been the first battles, where the Covenant was analyzing them before striking full force. Also the Covenant did won not (only) because of a larger infantry presence, but also vehicles. The Covenant show to use heavy usage of them. JUST like I said in my previous comment. Also...
Quote:
They have Spartan Lasers
So does this means that Spartan Lasers can destroy EVERYTHING? Even if it's power is enough to destroy a vehicle, it has to be charged (minor) and shouldn't be a cheap piece of weaponry. Spartan Lasers are powerful, but can't destroy everything. Scarabs for example.

And AK47s being able to be driven over by a tank (and maintain full functionality) is more impressive than a MA series Assault Rifle falling from space and still retaining full functionality? Dude, it's a fall from SPACE. You see the MA series assault rifle being built today as a normal assault rifle? It wouldn't even last that long if it was to fall from space (in any occasion).
I'm not going to pretend I know anything about 40k, but the way you're describing space marines makes them out to be agile walking tanks. Spartans are very different from this and fulfill a different role.

Spartans are pinpoint precision weapons. They plan carefully and approach cautiously, not guns blazing. In the opening chapter of the FoR, Blue team had multiple layers of traps and contingency plans. If need be, they could have easily escaped that engagement. However, the mines, fougasses and the rocket volley at the start took out all the grunts heavy weaponry, their air support and the majority of their forces. From what I understand about space marines, they woukd have ran in guns blazing and slaughtered all the grunts while tanking their return fire.

Correct if I'm wrong in that assumption, but can you see the difference?

I don't know where you've got the 'three shots to kill an elite from', but I can assure you that's not right. Maybe if you somehow hit their shield generator and then luckily hit in weak parts of the armour, you could kill an elite minor in three bullets. Maybe. However, a single elite is usually more than a match for a standard marine fireteam without access to heavy weaponry. I think two jackals were a match for a marine fireteam, I heard that on one of the waypoint videos I think. Their shield gauntlets are nearly invulnerable to small arms fire, so an elites would not be taken down by three bullets.

As to why Spartans are so effective, A. they drastically increase moral. If you heard of invincible super soldiers who were fighting alongside you, you would be more willing to fight a seemingly unstoppable foe. B. they can take on elites, hunters and brutes in 1v1s when no other human can. C. They can infiltrate unseen, complete their mission and exfiltrate unseen. D. they're as fast if not faster than elites, making them able to evade most fire or find cover before their shields are depleted.
Look at Captain America. He accomplishes a lot in his movies, and had similar enhancements to the Spartans. And that's without armour that can survive falls from space. Imagine Captain America, but instead of a vibranium shield he had a vibranium suit. There you have something similar to a Spartan 2 in MJONIR MK IV. Add in energy shields, an AI to help with logistics, increased strength and agility and imagine how much Cap could do.
Cindars wrote:
I still have no idea where you're getting the "three AR rounds to kill a shielded elite" stat from and I own every book thats out right now. Gameplay makes shielded and robotic enemies easier to kill but flesh based one's harder. Do you really think that a jackal would be able to take as many rounds to their frail body as they do in a game? RTS games are always a bit wonky with unit strength but at least in the Halo Wars cutscenes you don't normally see any enemies with shields. I love the Monsters cutscene where red team owns the elites and you are right in that case. A chaingun would have worked out well because the elites that challenged red team didn't have any shields on. The Arbiter got killed by Forge because he was cocky and more than likely the impact of the slipspace drive knocked out his shields (if he even had them on, I never saw a flicker of energy).
Was quoted to me in another thread discussing how effective Covenant troops are, but I think its from the Flood or Fall of Reach. Some of the cutscenes in Halo 5 show this. Such as when Vale leaps into the Phantom and shoots that elite major in the gut a few times before kicking him off. Then theres the bit where they kill Juls bodyguard.

Plus in Halo 5 you also see Vale kill a soldier with a quick burst of an SMG. So gameplay actually makes the Prometheans tougher to kill then they are in the lore.
I'm at work so can't check but I'm pretty sure the shields were stronger earlier on in the novels than now. I guess we can write it off as humanity getting stronger weapons as long as we don't look into the weapon specs too closely. Although aren't the Halo 5 cutscenes proof that the spartans are needed? Can't imagine a squad of ODST's pulling that off without way more casualties and support.
The Spartans have received the most advanced training, learned the best military strategy, and had augmentations to enhance their bodies. This allowed them to use the Mjolnir armor, which offers superior abilities in combat. The UNSC needs spartans to handle missions that are impossible for any other military personel.
Such as?

All UNSC soldiers would receive similar training and operate with similar strategy. Part of the same army after all. Augmentations of physical strength are neat but the vast bulk of combat isn't at close quarters so this is irrelevant. A marine gunline would suppress any infantry charge by sword wielding elites if it only takes three bullets to kill one from an assault rifle. It would be like Pickets Charge if the Union had machine guns.

In Halo Wars and Halo Wars 2 a UNSC army, vastly outnumbered, manages to hold its own and triumph against the Covenant, Banished, Flood and Forerunners. If they are that successful and if that's how effective just one ship is, then surely they don't need Spartans and can achieve the vast bulk of military objectives on their own? The same can be said of ODST, even if the specifics of gameplay and kill count aren't canon. In fact in the final cutscene you see a load of brutes running away from a gunline of battle rifles and scorpions. Red Team plays an important role. But its not an indispensable role. They could have sent up a squad of ODST's and set up a chaingun at that door and the end result would have been the same. Also applies for when the elite charge across that bridge. I mean if it takes three bullets to kill one elite, then in theory one guy with his assault rifle could have killed all 20 of those elites with one clip. So it might look impressive with all the acrobatics but its not necessary if a few steady assault rifles can kill the same number of enemies.
Spartans had this military training from the age of six all the way to adulthood, this 12+ years of training eclipses the short 1-2 years of training of marines. Yes the marines of Halo were able to manage their own against the covenant, but the spartans were able to actually push forward and do more damage on their own
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Standard shielding takes more than 3 bullets to drop... so you should drop it off... you keep repeating it. Spartan shielding can take a very decent beating. MJOLNIR's energy shielding can take at least one beam rifle shot without dropping...

Actual forerunners easily take out Spartans... Their automations are support stuff, or specialized...

And I highly doubt a squad of ODSTs would have been able to hold all those brutes.

You've already seen the intro of halo 5 guardians... they're capable. They are needed, and they are the next step.
erickyboo wrote:
....
Standard shielding takes more than 3 bullets to drop... so you should drop it off... you keep repeating it. Spartan shielding can take a very decent beating. MJOLNIR's energy shielding can take at least one beam rifle shot without dropping...

Actual forerunners easily take out Spartans... Their automations are support stuff, or specialized...

And I highly doubt a squad of ODSTs would have been able to hold all those brutes.

You've already seen the intro of halo 5 guardians... they're capable. They are needed, and they are the next step.
The shields worn by an Elite Minor; not a Spartan. But since those shields in the game are as good as those of a Spartan, if not better, then its reasonable to say that they would be similar.

But the Forerunners should be able to build better automotons. If Skynet can build bullet proof robots I don't see why Forerunners couldn't.

You have this thing called a heavy machine gun. They've only got one door. We saw brutes running away in a later cutscene from battle rifle fire.
erickyboo wrote:
....
Standard shielding takes more than 3 bullets to drop... so you should drop it off... you keep repeating it. Spartan shielding can take a very decent beating. MJOLNIR's energy shielding can take at least one beam rifle shot without dropping...

Actual forerunners easily take out Spartans... Their automations are support stuff, or specialized...

And I highly doubt a squad of ODSTs would have been able to hold all those brutes.

You've already seen the intro of halo 5 guardians... they're capable. They are needed, and they are the next step.
The shields worn by an Elite Minor; not a Spartan. But since those shields in the game are as good as those of a Spartan, if not better, then its reasonable to say that they would be similar.

But the Forerunners should be able to build better automotons. If Skynet can build bullet proof robots I don't see why Forerunners couldn't.

You have this thing called a heavy machine gun. They've only got one door. We saw brutes running away in a later cutscene from battle rifle fire.
The shields of an Elite Minor and a Spartan are the same.

Where's that skynet stuff from? 40K? If so then I will assume that you want Halo to be like 40K. It's the way you speak that gives me those thoughts. Remember that the Covenant's weaponry is made out of overheated plasma. So it can easily destroy sentinels, Prometheans whatever. I doubt Skynet's bullet proof robots could withstand overheated plasma as they do with bullets. But honestly, I have to agree with you on this one. Why couldn't the Forerunners build bullet-proof robots if their tech is tier 1? However the answer might be simple. The titanium, the material that's used to build the Spartan's armor, isn't bullet-proof. It's extremely bullet-resistant. A Barret.50 is capable of damaging titanium as seen in this video (5:19) (Other guns are also used in this test). So, if titanium, the strongest metal known to men by this day, can still be damaged like that, then I don't think the Sentinels\Prometheans could also withstand that power (or something).

So? ODST's have heavy machine guns and the Brutes might have what? A Fuel Rod, Beam Rifle, Brute Shot, anything could instantly kill the operator.
But my question: What cutscene are you taking about?
erickyboo wrote:
The shields of an Elite Minor and a Spartan are the same.

Where's that skynet stuff from? 40K? If so then I will assume that you want Halo to be like 40K. It's the way you speak that gives me those thoughts. Remember that the Covenant's weaponry is made out of overheated plasma. So it can easily destroy sentinels, Prometheans whatever. I doubt Skynet's bullet proof robots could withstand overheated plasma as they do with bullets. But honestly, I have to agree with you on this one. Why couldn't the Forerunners build bullet-proof robots if their tech is tier 1? However the answer might be simple. The titanium, the material that's used to build the Spartan's armor, isn't bullet-proof. It's extremely bullet-resistant. A Barret.50 is capable of damaging titanium as seen in this video (5:19) (Other guns are also used in this test). So, if titanium, the strongest metal known to men by this day, can still be damaged like that, then I don't think the Sentinels\Prometheans could also withstand that power (or something).

So? ODST's have heavy machine guns and the Brutes might have what? A Fuel Rod, Beam Rifle, Brute Shot, anything could instantly kill the operator.
But my question: What cutscene are you taking about?
Then the three bullets thing applies.

Plasma weapons are different to bullets. Which is why they should have given the UNSC gauss weapons instead of conventional bullets.

A Barret 50 cal is an anti material rifle meant for wrecking light vehicles and destroying key pieces of equipment. Its not even technically a sniper rifle. So yes, I can nod my head when in District 9 one of them knocks the mech over whereas normal bullets bounce off it. Still, the thing got back up and zapped the guy. Really, a bunch of marines fighting a Promethean Knight should, in my mind, play out like that scene. But we're talking about the assault rifle, I haven't even brought up the sniper rifle which is probably identical to the Barret because it looks exactly the same.

The cutscene where Isabel is put into the Assault Carrier and all of those Brutes burst through the door to try and get her out of the system. Then Jerome armed with a shotgun and knife kills them. Note that his gun cuts through their plate and one shots them. Meaning 5 ODST's with shotguns would have had the same effect. Actually the Brutes didn't bring any of those guns. Just some hammers and spikers.

I also refer to the cutscene just before Anders throws the Banished army into space in Halo Wars 2. The one where all the Banished are retreating from some battle rifle fire.
erickyboo wrote:
The shields of an Elite Minor and a Spartan are the same.

Where's that skynet stuff from? 40K? If so then I will assume that you want Halo to be like 40K. It's the way you speak that gives me those thoughts. Remember that the Covenant's weaponry is made out of overheated plasma. So it can easily destroy sentinels, Prometheans whatever. I doubt Skynet's bullet proof robots could withstand overheated plasma as they do with bullets. But honestly, I have to agree with you on this one. Why couldn't the Forerunners build bullet-proof robots if their tech is tier 1? However the answer might be simple. The titanium, the material that's used to build the Spartan's armor, isn't bullet-proof. It's extremely bullet-resistant. A Barret.50 is capable of damaging titanium as seen in this video (5:19) (Other guns are also used in this test). So, if titanium, the strongest metal known to men by this day, can still be damaged like that, then I don't think the Sentinels\Prometheans could also withstand that power (or something).

So? ODST's have heavy machine guns and the Brutes might have what? A Fuel Rod, Beam Rifle, Brute Shot, anything could instantly kill the operator.
But my question: What cutscene are you taking about?
Then the three bullets thing applies.

Plasma weapons are different to bullets. Which is why they should have given the UNSC gauss weapons instead of conventional bullets.

A Barret 50 cal is an anti material rifle meant for wrecking light vehicles and destroying key pieces of equipment. Its not even technically a sniper rifle. So yes, I can nod my head when in District 9 one of them knocks the mech over whereas normal bullets bounce off it. Still, the thing got back up and zapped the guy. Really, a bunch of marines fighting a Promethean Knight should, in my mind, play out like that scene. But we're talking about the assault rifle, I haven't even brought up the sniper rifle which is probably identical to the Barret because it looks exactly the same.

The cutscene where Isabel is put into the Assault Carrier and all of those Brutes burst through the door to try and get her out of the system. Then Jerome armed with a shotgun and knife kills them. Note that his gun cuts through their plate and one shots them. Meaning 5 ODST's with shotguns would have had the same effect. Actually the Brutes didn't bring any of those guns. Just some hammers and spikers.

I also refer to the cutscene just before Anders throws the Banished army into space in Halo Wars 2. The one where all the Banished are retreating from some battle rifle fire.
The three bullet thing does not apply. Majors have strong shields, but comparing to a Minor's shields, the difference is minimal, so it takes more than three shots to deplete a minor's and, consequently, a Spartan's.

Well, but if you then watch the entire video, you'll see that they also use an AK-47 (Since you compare it to the Assault Rifle). Even if the bullet in the video seemed to do almost nothing, since Halo is 541 years in the future, the weapons could have more punch and so, actually damage titanium more than today. I believe the MA series have a punch strong enough to damage it. Or, am I wrong?

God dammit, If I knew it was from Halo Wars 2. (Haven't played) :(
Still, you say that Jerome killed many brutes with nothing but a shotgun, then you say that 5 ODSTs could do the same. One Spartan vs 5 ODSTs. I think you gave yourself away lol.
erickyboo wrote:
The shields of an Elite Minor and a Spartan are the same.

Where's that skynet stuff from? 40K? If so then I will assume that you want Halo to be like 40K. It's the way you speak that gives me those thoughts. Remember that the Covenant's weaponry is made out of overheated plasma. So it can easily destroy sentinels, Prometheans whatever. I doubt Skynet's bullet proof robots could withstand overheated plasma as they do with bullets. But honestly, I have to agree with you on this one. Why couldn't the Forerunners build bullet-proof robots if their tech is tier 1? However the answer might be simple. The titanium, the material that's used to build the Spartan's armor, isn't bullet-proof. It's extremely bullet-resistant. A Barret.50 is capable of damaging titanium as seen in this video (5:19) (Other guns are also used in this test). So, if titanium, the strongest metal known to men by this day, can still be damaged like that, then I don't think the Sentinels\Prometheans could also withstand that power (or something).

So? ODST's have heavy machine guns and the Brutes might have what? A Fuel Rod, Beam Rifle, Brute Shot, anything could instantly kill the operator.
But my question: What cutscene are you taking about?
Then the three bullets thing applies.

Plasma weapons are different to bullets. Which is why they should have given the UNSC gauss weapons instead of conventional bullets.

A Barret 50 cal is an anti material rifle meant for wrecking light vehicles and destroying key pieces of equipment. Its not even technically a sniper rifle. So yes, I can nod my head when in District 9 one of them knocks the mech over whereas normal bullets bounce off it. Still, the thing got back up and zapped the guy. Really, a bunch of marines fighting a Promethean Knight should, in my mind, play out like that scene. But we're talking about the assault rifle, I haven't even brought up the sniper rifle which is probably identical to the Barret because it looks exactly the same.

The cutscene where Isabel is put into the Assault Carrier and all of those Brutes burst through the door to try and get her out of the system. Then Jerome armed with a shotgun and knife kills them. Note that his gun cuts through their plate and one shots them. Meaning 5 ODST's with shotguns would have had the same effect. Actually the Brutes didn't bring any of those guns. Just some hammers and spikers.

I also refer to the cutscene just before Anders throws the Banished army into space in Halo Wars 2. The one where all the Banished are retreating from some battle rifle fire.
The three bullet thing does not apply. Majors have strong shields, but comparing to a Minor's shields, the difference is minimal, so it takes more than three shots to deplete a minor's and, consequently, a Spartan's.

Well, but if you then watch the entire video, you'll see that they also use an AK-47 (Since you compare it to the Assault Rifle). Even if the bullet in the video seemed to do almost nothing, since Halo is 541 years in the future, the weapons could have more punch and so, actually damage titanium more than today. I believe the MA series have a punch strong enough to damage it. Or, am I wrong?

God dammit, If I knew it was from Halo Wars 2. (Haven't played) :(
Still, you say that Jerome killed many brutes with nothing but a shotgun, then you say that 5 ODSTs could do the same. One Spartan vs 5 ODSTs. I think you gave yourself away lol.
One Spartan costs as much as a Destroyer, outfitting and training 5 ODSTs is only a fraction of a fraction of the cost.

The MA5 assault rifle can't have as much punch as a 50 cal barret. If it did and you shot somebody the body would go flying backwards and the recoil would carry the marine in the other direction. So if an AK47 can't scratch some titanium plate it doesn't make a lot of sense that it can penetrate the plate a promethean soldier wears. This is why in District 9 the normal bullets bounce off the mech, but the 50 cal does actually do damage. If the guns ammo is just 7.62 NATO full metal jacket then if anything the AK should do more damage than an MA5.

If the gun was intended to be better than guns made in the 20th century then there would be a quote saying "the MA5 was a massive improvement over traditional gas operated machine guns because of x, y and z". Increased accuracy, stopping power or ammo conservation. Since you haven't provided a quote I can only assume that means the gun isn't an improvement on those weapons. If it was better they would tell us. They do this in contact harvest when describing the marines plate armor.

So yes, we are being told that we are still using M4 carbines 600 years in the future and that they can kill 10 foot robots built by a civilization whose tech borders on magic.
erickyboo wrote:
The shields of an Elite Minor and a Spartan are the same.

Where's that skynet stuff from? 40K? If so then I will assume that you want Halo to be like 40K. It's the way you speak that gives me those thoughts. Remember that the Covenant's weaponry is made out of overheated plasma. So it can easily destroy sentinels, Prometheans whatever. I doubt Skynet's bullet proof robots could withstand overheated plasma as they do with bullets. But honestly, I have to agree with you on this one. Why couldn't the Forerunners build bullet-proof robots if their tech is tier 1? However the answer might be simple. The titanium, the material that's used to build the Spartan's armor, isn't bullet-proof. It's extremely bullet-resistant. A Barret.50 is capable of damaging titanium as seen in this video (5:19) (Other guns are also used in this test). So, if titanium, the strongest metal known to men by this day, can still be damaged like that, then I don't think the Sentinels\Prometheans could also withstand that power (or something).

So? ODST's have heavy machine guns and the Brutes might have what? A Fuel Rod, Beam Rifle, Brute Shot, anything could instantly kill the operator.
But my question: What cutscene are you taking about?
Then the three bullets thing applies.

Plasma weapons are different to bullets. Which is why they should have given the UNSC gauss weapons instead of conventional bullets.

A Barret 50 cal is an anti material rifle meant for wrecking light vehicles and destroying key pieces of equipment. Its not even technically a sniper rifle. So yes, I can nod my head when in District 9 one of them knocks the mech over whereas normal bullets bounce off it. Still, the thing got back up and zapped the guy. Really, a bunch of marines fighting a Promethean Knight should, in my mind, play out like that scene. But we're talking about the assault rifle, I haven't even brought up the sniper rifle which is probably identical to the Barret because it looks exactly the same.

The cutscene where Isabel is put into the Assault Carrier and all of those Brutes burst through the door to try and get her out of the system. Then Jerome armed with a shotgun and knife kills them. Note that his gun cuts through their plate and one shots them. Meaning 5 ODST's with shotguns would have had the same effect. Actually the Brutes didn't bring any of those guns. Just some hammers and spikers.

I also refer to the cutscene just before Anders throws the Banished army into space in Halo Wars 2. The one where all the Banished are retreating from some battle rifle fire.
The three bullet thing does not apply. Majors have strong shields, but comparing to a Minor's shields, the difference is minimal, so it takes more than three shots to deplete a minor's and, consequently, a Spartan's.

Well, but if you then watch the entire video, you'll see that they also use an AK-47 (Since you compare it to the Assault Rifle). Even if the bullet in the video seemed to do almost nothing, since Halo is 541 years in the future, the weapons could have more punch and so, actually damage titanium more than today. I believe the MA series have a punch strong enough to damage it. Or, am I wrong?

God dammit, If I knew it was from Halo Wars 2. (Haven't played) :(
Still, you say that Jerome killed many brutes with nothing but a shotgun, then you say that 5 ODSTs could do the same. One Spartan vs 5 ODSTs. I think you gave yourself away lol.
One Spartan costs as much as a Destroyer, outfitting and training 5 ODSTs is only a fraction of a fraction of the cost.

The MA5 assault rifle can't have as much punch as a 50 cal barret. If it did and you shot somebody the body would go flying backwards and the recoil would carry the marine in the other direction. So if an AK47 can't scratch some titanium plate it doesn't make a lot of sense that it can penetrate the plate a promethean soldier wears. This is why in District 9 the normal bullets bounce off the mech, but the 50 cal does actually do damage. If the guns ammo is just 7.62 NATO full metal jacket then if anything the AK should do more damage than an MA5.

If the gun was intended to be better than guns made in the 20th century then there would be a quote saying "the MA5 was a massive improvement over traditional gas operated machine guns because of x, y and z". Increased accuracy, stopping power or ammo conservation. Since you haven't provided a quote I can only assume that means the gun isn't an improvement on those weapons. If it was better they would tell us. They do this in contact harvest when describing the marines plate armor.

So yes, we are being told that we are still using M4 carbines 600 years in the future and that they can kill 10 foot robots built by a civilization whose tech borders on magic.
I didn't said that the MA5 needs to have the power of a 50 cal. I just implied that since Halo is 541 years in the future that it could have more punch than an AK-47 of today. It's totally different. By saying:
Quote:
Even if the bullet in the video seemed to do almost nothing, since Halo is 541 years in the future, the weapons could have more punch and so, actually damage titanium more than today. I believe the MA series have a punch strong enough to damage it.
I meant that it could do at least a bit more damage than today, not making it overpowered. I'm also not saying that the MA series was a huge improvement over anything else. Weapons are constantly evolving, so, I though that the idea above could make sense and be applied.
erickyboo wrote:
The shields of an Elite Minor and a Spartan are the same.

Where's that skynet stuff from? 40K? If so then I will assume that you want Halo to be like 40K. It's the way you speak that gives me those thoughts. Remember that the Covenant's weaponry is made out of overheated plasma. So it can easily destroy sentinels, Prometheans whatever. I doubt Skynet's bullet proof robots could withstand overheated plasma as they do with bullets. But honestly, I have to agree with you on this one. Why couldn't the Forerunners build bullet-proof robots if their tech is tier 1? However the answer might be simple. The titanium, the material that's used to build the Spartan's armor, isn't bullet-proof. It's extremely bullet-resistant. A Barret.50 is capable of damaging titanium as seen in this video (5:19) (Other guns are also used in this test). So, if titanium, the strongest metal known to men by this day, can still be damaged like that, then I don't think the Sentinels\Prometheans could also withstand that power (or something).

So? ODST's have heavy machine guns and the Brutes might have what? A Fuel Rod, Beam Rifle, Brute Shot, anything could instantly kill the operator.
But my question: What cutscene are you taking about?
Then the three bullets thing applies.

Plasma weapons are different to bullets. Which is why they should have given the UNSC gauss weapons instead of conventional bullets.

A Barret 50 cal is an anti material rifle meant for wrecking light vehicles and destroying key pieces of equipment. Its not even technically a sniper rifle. So yes, I can nod my head when in District 9 one of them knocks the mech over whereas normal bullets bounce off it. Still, the thing got back up and zapped the guy. Really, a bunch of marines fighting a Promethean Knight should, in my mind, play out like that scene. But we're talking about the assault rifle, I haven't even brought up the sniper rifle which is probably identical to the Barret because it looks exactly the same.

The cutscene where Isabel is put into the Assault Carrier and all of those Brutes burst through the door to try and get her out of the system. Then Jerome armed with a shotgun and knife kills them. Note that his gun cuts through their plate and one shots them. Meaning 5 ODST's with shotguns would have had the same effect. Actually the Brutes didn't bring any of those guns. Just some hammers and spikers.

I also refer to the cutscene just before Anders throws the Banished army into space in Halo Wars 2. The one where all the Banished are retreating from some battle rifle fire.
I don't see a squad of ODST's surviving that Brute rush in Halo Wars 2. Even with Jerome's insane speed and reaction times (which are easily 4 times faster than a human), he gets surrounded and has to melee the brutes. An ODST couldn't deflect a punch from even a minor Brute let alone deck one hard enough to knock him out of the fight.

The second cutscene you mention shows the Brutes being in a bad spot and they're trying to regroup. The UNSC had the advantage being both a defender, and having the high ground on a ridge with scorpions being air dropped in. The Brutes were backing up into the tree line to get to the landing area for the blisterbacks. Seemed pretty obvious that without Anders tossing the army into space that the UNSC group defending the portal was gonna get wrecked, even with a spartan there.

Anyways what's the point in continuing this? From the way things are going, spartans are humanity's next step in evolution as the enhancements are getting cheaper and easier to do. The working prototypes (lets just say the SII's and ignore Johnson's group) were the most expensive and the galaxy was saved by one. The SIII's were way cheaper and mass produced, and now the SIV's are being pumped out and holding there own against prometheans. The most expensive part of the spartans was the armor and with so many different companies making it now costs have gone down a ton.

This is the equivalent of saying, "Why do we need cars when horses do the same thing and are cheaper?"
On Easy, Spartans by far have the strongest shields. Like 10 times more powerful than elites.
DId you just pull an IRL Multiplayer is the worst posible thing to compare the rest is just game mecanics
Why are you comparing halo to 40k? In the halo universe the Spartans are humanity best single ground asset to fight the host of alien threats out there. Considering s single spartan is the equivalent of an entire ODST platoon I would say yes they are worth it.
I agree that it is very nonsensical to compare separate universes to each other. Although it is fun to compare them and see how they stack up compared to each other, but all these universes operate very differently in many ways; especially 40k in that regard. Spartans are and always will be the UNSC's most effective sole ground soldier. There effectiveness has been seen throughout all the Halo games and throughout Halo Canon. I don't know how you could claim that a Spartan is less effective than 5 ODSTs. ODSTs and Spartans were made for completely different things. Sure, they can do similar things, but they both are used for certain situations when said situation calls for it. Not to mention that a Spartan could accomplish a mission much more effectively than a squad of ODSTs. Probably one of the reasons ODSTs are having their roles as elite soldiers phased out by the much more effective Spartan IVs. I would suggest that the OP reads up on more Halo Canon, and more in depth. There is a lot that we don't see during the games and much of it is in much of the expansive Halo literature and expanded universe.
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