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Flood groupie change my mind.

OP WhyNotZ0lDBERG

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Ok so I've been a flood fan since the first time I was captured by Delta halos gravemind way back in December of '04. And I was wondering if anyone else would elect infection. I know the arguments against: pain and a theft of the mind to put it kindly. But I like the idea of The immortality within the collective of hundreds of species.
I'll be honest I would go for it. They would be a much greater evolutionary stage that you could just join.

Also have we seen a flood based religion in Canon? I know that lay people aren't really even aware of the infection that occurred on Earth but I get the feeling that if they were aware of the basics of the flood I would be getting pamplets at my door by at least some people.
I find the Flood boring for those reasons. You lost your self to the greater gestalt personality made out of the collective whole. Gameplay wise, they're just boring to fight, it's just swarm warfare with zombies that can jump, essentially.

And in canon we have the Governors of Contrition, a group of Covenant that held all the creations of the Forerunners utterly holy, and without knowing any better, worship the Flood as a creation of the Forerunners. A Elite shipmaster during the Great Schism, gor example, was insane enough to order his ship scrape an infected Covenant ship so that the Flood could board and infect all of them.
Heads up folks! We got a real life Logic Plague playing out before our eyes... they got Zoidberg and he's trying to convert you! Don't let them get you too!

But seriously, heck no, I'm a big fan of individuality and diversity. The Flood is the exact opposite of both those things. And if the Flood ever accomplishes their goals (at least the goals we believe they are working toward), then that existence would become very boring.

ManiacalSpark beat me to it on the Governors of Contrition. Certainly an interesting group... and certainly not your garden variety Covenant fanatic.
Yeah I should have been more clear I know about the covies that flood worshipped as a sort of fanatic sect of the worship of the forerunners. But I'm more asking with humanity in mind. I mean at the very least we know oni has attempted to harness the flood and recognizes the potential within the parasite. And we know that there are now forerunner worshipping humans. So how long before I can expect to see two dudes dressed as zombies knocking at my door with a leaflet? Or is that already a thing on some backwater colony world that I missed? And more importantly Why shouldn't I join them?
Ok so I've been a flood fan since the first time I was captured by Delta halos gravemind way back in December of '04. And I was wondering if anyone else would elect infection. I know the arguments against: pain and a theft of the mind to put it kindly. But I like the idea of The immortality within the collective of hundreds of species.
I'll be honest I would go for it. They would be a much greater evolutionary stage that you could just join.

Also have we seen a flood based religion in Canon? I know that lay people aren't really even aware of the infection that occurred on Earth but I get the feeling that if they were aware of the basics of the flood I would be getting pamplets at my door by at least some people.
Counter point: the plot of the game Prototype. Once the Flood consumes you, you're gone. It can pull up a perfect copy of your consciousness to serve whatever purposes it wants, but it is no more you than the protagonist of Prototype is the person who stole the virus and got infected. It may think it's you, but it isn't.
Yeah I should have been more clear I know about the covies that flood worshipped as a sort of fanatic sect of the worship of the forerunners. But I'm more asking with humanity in mind. I mean at the very least we know oni has attempted to harness the flood and recognizes the potential within the parasite. And we know that there are now forerunner worshipping humans. So how long before I can expect to see two dudes dressed as zombies knocking at my door with a leaflet? Or is that already a thing on some backwater colony world that I missed? And more importantly Why shouldn't I join them?
I haven't seen anything in lore yet that suggests humans are worshiping the Flood. Though to be fair, the Flood isn't exactly a secret after it landed on Earth, but the nature of the Flood is very much classified as far as I know. So even if there were humans that were inclined to worship the Flood, there just isn't enough information out there to establish a belief system. But now I have this funny image in my head of a Flood combat form passing out leaflets during Halloween lol.

As for why not join them... well it's stated pretty clearly by the Primordial that integration into the Flood would lead to an eternity of pain and hunger. Just watch the CEA terminal about Keyes when he was taken over by the Flood. He was straight up not having a good time lol. Jenkins in the book The Flood was also not having a great time either, and managed to essentially beg Melissa McKay to kill him. The Flood are essentially zombies in space. So to answer your question with another question, do you want to be a zombie, barely held together by rotting flesh and an intense feeling of pain and hunger for the rest of eternity? Id reckon that's a no.
Yeah I should have been more clear I know about the covies that flood worshipped as a sort of fanatic sect of the worship of the forerunners. But I'm more asking with humanity in mind. I mean at the very least we know oni has attempted to harness the flood and recognizes the potential within the parasite. And we know that there are now forerunner worshipping humans. So how long before I can expect to see two dudes dressed as zombies knocking at my door with a leaflet? Or is that already a thing on some backwater colony world that I missed? And more importantly Why shouldn't I join them?
I haven't seen anything in lore yet that suggests humans are worshiping the Flood. Though to be fair, the Flood isn't exactly a secret after it landed on Earth, but the nature of the Flood is very much classified as far as I know. So even if there were humans that were inclined to worship the Flood, there just isn't enough information out there to establish a belief system. But now I have this funny image in my head of a Flood combat form passing out leaflets during Halloween lol.

As for why not join them... well it's stated pretty clearly by the Primordial that integration into the Flood would lead to an eternity of pain and hunger. Just watch the CEA terminal about Keyes when he was taken over by the Flood. He was straight up not having a good time lol. Jenkins in the book The Flood was also not having a great time either, and managed to essentially beg Melissa McKay to kill him. The Flood are essentially zombies in space. So to answer your question with another question, do you want to be a zombie, barely held together by rotting flesh and an intense feeling of pain and hunger for the rest of eternity? Id reckon that's a no.
Super no from me!
I propose an alternate course of action - kill them utterly and everywhere you find them until there's none left to kill, treating them as the existential threat to the Universe that they are.
Zachu511 wrote:
I propose an alternate course of action - kill them utterly and everywhere you find them until there's none left to kill, treating them as the existential threat to the Universe that they are.
Alternate, alternate plan: capture specimens and perform illegal experiments until we have the ability to give a human a hive-mind power and then give it to soldiers to give them better coordination in battle. Also see if we can weaponise it and unleash it on the covenant and the insurrectionists.
Zachu511 wrote:
I propose an alternate course of action - kill them utterly and everywhere you find them until there's none left to kill, treating them as the existential threat to the Universe that they are.
Alternate, alternate plan: capture specimens and perform illegal experiments until we have the ability to give a human a hive-mind power and then give it to soldiers to give them better coordination in battle. Also see if we can weaponise it and unleash it on the covenant and the insurrectionists.
Weaponizing it wouldn't be my preferred course of action - ONI though, has thought of that without a doubt. Although, I'll concede that learning how to capitalize on "Hive-Mind" thinking, even to enhance AI and VISR capability (and maybe in time, implants for soldiers?) could be worthwhile.
You’ll either have your mind lost within the Flood consciousness, seemingly only to be pulled up to cause others pain, or be subjected to pain forever.

You don’t even get to enjoy immortality. Read “I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream” and I think that’s basically your lot.
Zachu511 wrote:
Zachu511 wrote:
I propose an alternate course of action - kill them utterly and everywhere you find them until there's none left to kill, treating them as the existential threat to the Universe that they are.
Alternate, alternate plan: capture specimens and perform illegal experiments until we have the ability to give a human a hive-mind power and then give it to soldiers to give them better coordination in battle. Also see if we can weaponise it and unleash it on the covenant and the insurrectionists.
Weaponizing it wouldn't be my preferred course of action - ONI though, has thought of that without a doubt. Although, I'll concede that learning how to capitalize on "Hive-Mind" thinking, even to enhance AI and VISR capability (and maybe in time, implants for soldiers?) could be worthwhile.
In light of some of the things that ONI has done in the past, I honestly wouldn't put it past them.
Flood are both interesting and terrifying if you ask me. But I think I'll pass on joining the Gravemind, his infected slaves are worthy and deadly opponents, I'll admit. But I kinda prefer being human more... it's a lot easier.
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You’ll either have your mind lost within the Flood consciousness, seemingly only to be pulled up to cause others pain, or be subjected to pain forever.
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Halofollower states in one of his videos that after mental torment the flood kill you anyway but keep your body for biomass. Ugh.
Ok so I have fibromyalgia I'm already in pretty constant pain and while you don't exactly get used to that you still find ways to cope. So the pain argument... Meh... I'm in pain and quite content with my life quite happy even. So the flood kills your old body but the sum of your memories which I would argue is your consciousness lives on. Yes it gets mixed about with others and such but wouldn't some form of immortality be preferable to nonexistence. And the whole mental torment that is talked about comes from the book the flood where the pain seems to some from the unwilling manner in which thoughts are taken from hosts. What if you just give in? How is it any different from the deconstruction and reconstruction that one would experience going through a star trek teleporter?

JNDreher wrote:
Bloop
Counter point: the plot of the game Prototype. Once the Flood consumes you, you're gone. It can pull up a perfect copy of your consciousness to serve whatever purposes it wants, but it is no more you than the protagonist of Prototype is the person who stole the virus and got infected. It may think it's you, but it isn't.
Idk I haven't actually played that game but I gotta say if it thinks it is me has all my memories I feel like "ehhh close enough" I mean what is the difference really? Sure it might make different choices to some degree but so would I if flooded with the info and life experience of 10000 lives. So what is the problem for you? A soul?
You’ll either have your mind lost within the Flood consciousness, seemingly only to be pulled up to cause others pain, or be subjected to pain forever.
...
Halofollower states in one of his videos that after mental torment the flood kill you anyway but keep your body for biomass. Ugh.
Ok so I have fibromyalgia I'm already in pretty constant pain and while you don't exactly get used to that you still find ways to cope. So the pain argument... Meh... I'm in pain and quite content with my life quite happy even. So the flood kills your old body but the sum of your memories which I would argue is your consciousness lives on. Yes it gets mixed about with others and such but wouldn't some form of immortality be preferable to nonexistence. And the whole mental torment that is talked about comes from the book the flood where the pain seems to some from the unwilling manner in which thoughts are taken from hosts. What if you just give in? How is it any different from the deconstruction and reconstruction that one would experience going through a star trek teleporter?

JNDreher wrote:
Bloop
Counter point: the plot of the game Prototype. Once the Flood consumes you, you're gone. It can pull up a perfect copy of your consciousness to serve whatever purposes it wants, but it is no more you than the protagonist of Prototype is the person who stole the virus and got infected. It may think it's you, but it isn't.
Idk I haven't actually played that game but I gotta say if it thinks it is me has all my memories I feel like "ehhh close enough" I mean what is the difference really? Sure it might make different choices to some degree but so would I if flooded with the info and life experience of 10000 lives. So what is the problem for you? A soul?
Whether it's an evil god using the knowledge of the ages to devise tortures beyond your comprehension, or the ageless parasite storing a database of the knowledge and personalities of the people it has slain, so it can accurately simulate them for its own ammusement or advantage, you don't get to experience anything but pain and death... quick or eternal. Shrugging it off and saying you could handle it suggests an utter disconnect from any understanding of the type of horror being discussed.
You’ll either have your mind lost within the Flood consciousness, seemingly only to be pulled up to cause others pain, or be subjected to pain forever.

You don’t even get to enjoy immortality. Read “I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream” and I think that’s basically your lot.
Just finished it fun story bird was weird but definitely worthy of being on of Dante's circles. I'm just curious do you have a source that you are pulling from for your first statements?
JNDreher wrote:
You’ll either have your mind lost within the Flood consciousness, seemingly only to be pulled up to cause others pain, or be subjected to pain forever.
...
Things
Ok...
JNDreher wrote:
Bloop
Counter point.
Idk
Whether it's an evil god using the knowledge of the ages to devise tortures beyond your comprehension, or the ageless parasite storing a database of the knowledge and personalities of the people it has slain, so it can accurately simulate them for its own ammusement or advantage, you don't get to experience anything but pain and death... quick or eternal. Shrugging it off and saying you could handle it suggests an utter disconnect from any understanding of the type of horror being discussed.
Just saying to me "you don't understand the horror" doesn't really add much to the conversation. I have read a great deal of the mass of Halo lore And I do understand the level of horror. I think to a large degree Bear's books did a ton to lessen the horror of what the flood was in the days of Halo 1-3 I mean it's basically a corrupted precursor hivemind.

What is your source for this guarantee of complete death? I mean yes ones body and mind would die but they would also be preserved even if not frequently conscious.
I never said I could handle whatever unknown pain I was simply saying why not take my chances. I mean for those about to die anyway what is there to lose if the alternative is NON-EXISTENCE. At the very least you have left your mark on an ageless being far greater than ones self.

I think if anything the real horror is the idea that we push back deep into our minds that one day we may no longer exist not even the greatest of our deeds will be remembered. Even our species will blink out without a trace. We are a whisper in the vastness of an unfathomable universe.
You’ll either have your mind lost within the Flood consciousness, seemingly only to be pulled up to cause others pain, or be subjected to pain forever.

You don’t even get to enjoy immortality. Read “I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream” and I think that’s basically your lot.
Just finished it fun story bird was weird but definitely worthy of being on of Dante's circles. I'm just curious do you have a source that you are pulling from for your first statements?
JNDreher wrote:
You’ll either have your mind lost within the Flood consciousness, seemingly only to be pulled up to cause others pain, or be subjected to pain forever.
...
Things
Ok...
JNDreher wrote:
Bloop
Counter point.
Idk
Whether it's an evil god using the knowledge of the ages to devise tortures beyond your comprehension, or the ageless parasite storing a database of the knowledge and personalities of the people it has slain, so it can accurately simulate them for its own ammusement or advantage, you don't get to experience anything but pain and death... quick or eternal. Shrugging it off and saying you could handle it suggests an utter disconnect from any understanding of the type of horror being discussed.
Just saying to me "you don't understand the horror" doesn't really add much to the conversation. I have read a great deal of the mass of Halo lore And I do understand the level of horror. I think to a large degree Bear's books did a ton to lessen the horror of what the flood was in the days of Halo 1-3 I mean it's basically a corrupted precursor hivemind.

What is your source for this guarantee of complete death? I mean yes ones body and mind would die but they would also be preserved even if not frequently conscious.
I never said I could handle whatever unknown pain I was simply saying why not take my chances. I mean for those about to die anyway what is there to lose if the alternative is NON-EXISTENCE. At the very least you have left your mark on an ageless being far greater than ones self.

I think if anything the real horror is the idea that we push back deep into our minds that one day we may not longer exist not even the greatest of our deeds will be remembered. Even our species will blink out without a trace. We are a whisper in the vastness of an unfathomable universe.
Look at Captain Keys' infection. He is stripped of everything he is, memory by memory. We see some of this in Halo CEA, as well as the novelization. By the time Master Chief retrieves the Captain's implant, there is no Captain Keyes anymore, just as there would be no you if you were infected.

Informing you that you wouldn't be able to tolerate the torture from Lovecraftian god is basic common sense, and your handwave dismissal of what torture is like suggests that you really don't have any experience with it, making your assertions just bravado.

I disagree that the Forerunner Saga in any way diminished the horrors of the Flood. The Flood are literally a galaxy-consuming super-weapon created by gods who mold reality like clay.

Quote:
I think if anything the real horror is the idea that we push back deep into our minds that one day we may not longer exist not even the greatest of our deeds will be remembered. Even our species will blink out without a trace. We are a whisper in the vastness of an unfathomable universe.
That is a seriously hopeless worldview, and addressing it requires delving into philosophy and theology. If you'd like to continue this discussion in private messages, I'll do that because I don't believe that's the sort of discussion the Halo forums were intended for.
Hey didn't mean to freak you out this is not my world view at all. And while I may agree with some of the basics elements of what I was expressing I wasn't trying to get quite so heavy as I think it came off. If you want to talk about that other stuff feel free to pm me because I agree this isn't the place for that.

I still feel that your other argument about keys doesn't really hold. Yes what is described is truly horrific like some of the most horrific stuff I've read it holds a special place in my heart for that and the chills it gave me years ago. But one could say the same about the miracle that is birth. It's all about whether you believe there is any payoff at the end. And what I am saying is that I have yet to be convinced that existing within the flood has no payoff.

Yes it is a lovecraftian monster but it follows it's own unique set of rules setup in Halo Canon and that it's what I'm looking for. It is not a god but a corrupted hivemind that was the result of the precurser's mistakes mixed with the natural evolutionary process. Comparison to lovecraftian gods is a strawman.

You are welcome to your opinion on Bear's books I will not argue on those. They did have a few high points, but on the whole not for me.

Oh and thanks for citing keys conversion and the flood novel that's what I'm aiming for here. I think what it boils down to for me is that we never really get to see the other side after full flood conversion so we can't really know what lies ahead there. yes the gravemind could be lying (and is known to lie)and it could be something akin to the story cited earlier by I DR HALSEY I (which was like 40 min. Listen and well worth it) However I'm just not sure I see the malice in the quantities that lovecrafts monsters and the "AM" from the above mentioned story here in graveminds relationship with humanity. If we were discussing the flood forerunner relationship sure.
Sorry if this flows poorly and is terrible in grammatical ways I'm writing on my phone and super tired so I didn't really proof it.
JNDreher wrote:
Counter point: the plot of the game Prototype. Once the Flood consumes you, you're gone. It can pull up a perfect copy of your consciousness to serve whatever purposes it wants, but it is no more you than the protagonist of Prototype is the person who stole the virus and got infected. It may think it's you, but it isn't.
Semi on and semi off topic -

JND, I would not presume to challenge your knowledge of the lore (because I'd lose), but are you sure about the bolded part? This is something I've always wondered about.

So the Flood infect a victim and a copy of their geas is "uploaded" to the Gravemind's consciousness, and the Gravemind then possesses all their knowledge, memories, etc., we know that. But I've always wondered - is that geas actually still conscious? Is it aware? Is it "awake" inside the Gravemind's "brain"??

If the answer is yes, the Flood become orders of magnitude more horrifying. Because one would presume that if they are aware, the GM is keeping them in a constant state of torment, with no hope of escape, death or rescue. So, they're basically condemned to Hell.

And what's even more unfathomably disturbing is to consider that since every GM retains the memories of the previous GM's, that these geas might still be in that state in perpetuity, even once that GM is destroyed. So if every victim ever infected since the Flood began are still in such a state, that means trillions of souls are in Hell.

For this reason I hope you're correct and the answer is NO, because I feel like that would be a very poor writing choice for a video game franchise that is supposed to be about hope in the face of death - you're supposed to be the hero who is empowered to do something about evil, when you play the game. You're supposed to believe as the Chief, you can use your muscles and your MJOLNIR and your assault rifle to save the innocent - but anything he can do to save the day, pales in comparison to the fact that trillions of souls are still in Hell and there's precisely nothing he can do to save them.
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